Crusades

[Hibbs, Philip]

>Crusades and jihads have historically been politically motivated.

Just because that turns out to be what happened in history, that doesn't
mean that it has to be that way in a fantasy world. Ninja powers may
have turned out to be training, preparation and trickery, but in a
fantasy game, I'd make them magical powers, just as crusades and jihads
would be primarily religious. Remember, gods are evident through overt
magic, not just faith.


philip.hibbs@tnt.co.uk or phibbs@compuserve.com
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/phibbs

[FRANKEN*RC]

> >Crusades and jihads have historically been politically motivated.

In the Dark ages religion and politics were the same. Don't forget
that the church was one of the (maybe THE) most powerful
factions in the world.

> Just because that turns out to be what happened in history, that doesn't
> mean that it has to be that way in a fantasy world. Ninja powers may
> have turned out to be training, preparation and trickery, but in a
> fantasy game, I'd make them magical powers, just as crusades and jihads
> would be primarily religious. Remember, gods are evident through overt
> magic, not just faith.
>

[Daniel McSorley]

From: Trizt


>While the "holy" land was under muslim control it was more open then it
ever
>was during the xian control. The xians did slauther most of the population
in
>Jerusalem and it was mostly xians juws (spl?) living there. Somehow most of
>the people who died during the crusides where civilians and usually xians
as
>the xian Knights classed everyone east of Konstantinopel as none xians. I
have
>to say that ALL crusades has been quite evil, exept the first one was a
bunch
>miss informed xian zeliots. The first "knights" who moved south to save the
>"holy" land did start kill people in mid europe and a bit later a number of
>crusades was made within europe which can't have been so friendly as the
Finns
>did burn down Sigtuna, which was the xian swedens capital. Oki, I got a bit
>away from the real subject here... But what I did want to say, that it's
quite
>crasy to say that only LG could call to a "crusade", as I see only evil and
>expanding religions would do that (both evil and expanding is a good
>description of mideivel xianity, and still is. Only the ortodox view of
>xianity is less expansive and evil).


What, exactly, is an "xian"? Is there something you want to say?

Daniel McSorley
mcsorley.1@osu.edu

[James Ruhland]

>
> While the "holy" land was under muslim control it was more open then it
ever
> was during the xian control. The xians did slauther most of the
population in
> Jerusalem and it was mostly xians juws (spl?) living there. Somehow most
of
> the people who died during the crusides where civilians and usually xians
as
> the xian Knights classed everyone east of Konstantinopel as none xians.

And they weren't to keen on the Romans of Constantinople, either...

I have
> to say that ALL crusades has been quite evil, exept the first one was a
bunch
> miss informed xian zeliots.

I'm not sure who these "xians" you speak of are; but I wasn't saying that
the Crusaders were good. The whole Crusade thing, IMO, was just a bad
mistake by Alexius and that western prelate who called for it. Fact is
Turkish agressions made it nessisary for us to call for mercenary aid, and
the whole thing got out of control. Typical when dealing with Frankish
Barbarians. But, again, I will repeat that a crusade in a heroic fantasy
setting need not duplicate the vile, villanous, and ignorant nature of the
historical crusaders. Or, if you want it more close to realistic, then any
Crusade called would be in response to forgeign, "infidel" (I.E. they don't
follow the same diety as you, or not in the same way) agression against a
friendly power of the similar (or friendly) religion (I.E. the Turkish
agressions against the E. Roman Empire, or dude's example of coming to the
aid of Ariya if it is overun by hostile barbarians).

> But what I did want to say, that it's quite
> crasy to say that only LG could call to a "crusade", as I see only evil
and
> expanding religions would do that (both evil and expanding is a good
> description of mideivel xianity, and still is. Only the ortodox view of
> xianity is less expansive and evil).
>
Leaving asside real-world religions for a second, in order to try to avoid
insulting anyone's real-world beliefs anymore than T. and I already have, I
think that alignment shouldn't matter; any nation or civilization that has
strongly held religious beliefs should be able to call a crusade or jihad.
Btw, Anatolia still hasn't recovered from the devistation wrought by thouse
nomadic barbarians, the Seljuk, so I'll set asside who did more to what for
a moment. But one thing about wars, from midieval to modern times; usually
in all cases it is the civilian populace that suffers most, whether the
army marches in the name of god, or some athiest tyrant (i.e. Hitler), just
like most soldiers who have been killed during war died not on the
battlefield, but due to disease, unsanitary conditions, accidents, etc.

[Neil Barnes]

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, James Ruhland wrote:
> Fact is
> Turkish agressions made it nessisary for us to call for mercenary aid, and
> the whole thing got out of control. Typical when dealing with Frankish
> Barbarians.

I think you've really got to admire the accomplshments of the First
Crusaders & the Outremer Kingdomers - they may have been pretty stupid &
unpleasant, but the whole thing was a pretty amazing accomplishment,
trudging through deserts with that heavy chain mail for example. And the
history of the Outremer kingdoms is pretty cool reading, with assassins
and all sorts of doubling dealing and stuff.

> But one thing about wars, from midieval to modern times; usually
> in all cases it is the civilian populace that suffers most, whether the
> army marches in the name of god, or some athiest tyrant (i.e. Hitler), just
> like most soldiers who have been killed during war died not on the
> battlefield, but due to disease, unsanitary conditions, accidents, etc.

cf the 1919 Flu epidemic.

neil

[David Sean Brown]

>
> What, exactly, is an "xian"? Is there something you want to say?
"X" is the symbol (greek, I think) for Christ, so an xian is a christian
(short form, sorta like xmas for christmas)

Sean

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Trizt wrote:

> -> What, exactly, is an "xian"? Is there something you want to say?
>
> It's shortening for Christianity/Christian as X-mas is for Christmas, it's
> nothing which I have invented but is quite usually used atleast among "new
> agers".
>
>

It is a relatively common abbreviation for "Christian," based on X
representing the Greek letter "chi," the first letter in the Greek word
"christ," meaning "anointed one."

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Joel Parrish]

======== Original Message ========


On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Trizt wrote:

> -> What, exactly, is an "xian"? Is there something you want to say?
>
> It's shortening for Christianity/Christian as X-mas is for Christmas, it's
> nothing which I have invented but is quite usually used atleast among "new
> agers".
>
>

It is a relatively common abbreviation for "Christian," based on X
representing the Greek letter "chi," the first letter in the Greek word
"christ," meaning "anointed one."

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu
'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
======== Fwd by: Joel Parrish ========

No matter what it is or why it is, it is still insulting...

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Joel Parrish wrote:

> It is a relatively common abbreviation for "Christian," based on X
> representing the Greek letter "chi," the first letter in the Greek word
> "christ," meaning "anointed one."
>
>
> No matter what it is or why it is, it is still insulting...

Not necessarily. I am a Christian, and I find nothing wrong with the
abbreviation. I use it myself quite frequently, esp. when i can get my
computer to Replace it with the long version when I'm finished writing.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[David Sean Brown]

>
> It is a relatively common abbreviation for "Christian," based on X
> representing the Greek letter "chi," the first letter in the Greek word
> "christ," meaning "anointed one."
>
> Mark VanderMeulen
> vander+@pitt.edu
>
> No matter what it is or why it is, it is still insulting...

Why is that..my church has the large X on the ceiling as part of the
central design. Why would a symbol of Christ be insulting?

[Glenn Robb]

I'm a Christian myself, although if I were travelling in your state, ever=
yone
will ask me "Are you a Mormon?" Then I'd say yes.

=97 Elton Robb

David Sean Brown wrote:

> >
> > It is a relatively common abbreviation for "Christian," based on X
> > representing the Greek letter "chi," the first letter in the Greek wo=
rd
> > "christ," meaning "anointed one."
> >
> > Mark VanderMeulen
> > vander+@pitt.edu
> >
> > No matter what it is or why it is, it is still insulting...
>
> Why is that..my church has the large X on the ceiling as part of the
> central design. Why would a symbol of Christ be insulting?
>
> ************************************************** *********************=
****
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the =
line
>

[Brian Stoner]

I too am a Christian, and while I don't want to be perceived as a meany,
I also don't think this is the place for these discussions... Heh,
we're getting too much mail from this list as it is. :)

Brian


Glenn Robb wrote:

> I'm a Christian myself, although if I were travelling in your state,
> everyone
> will ask me "Are you a Mormon?" Then I'd say yes.
>
> =97 Elton Robb
>
> David Sean Brown wrote:
>
> > >
> > > It is a relatively common abbreviation for "Christian," based on X
>
> > > representing the Greek letter "chi," the first letter in the Greek
> word
> > > "christ," meaning "anointed one."
> > >
> > > Mark VanderMeulen
> > > vander+@pitt.edu
> > >
> > > No matter what it is or why it is, it is still insulting...
> >
> > Why is that..my church has the large X on the ceiling as part of the
>
> > central design. Why would a symbol of Christ be insulting?
> >
> >
> ************************************************** *********************=
****
>
> > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with
> the line
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>
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