A Question

[Darkstar]

Just a quick question

What would happen if a PC commited bloodtheft on the Spider, who has
Invulnerability, and major regeneration so not easy to kill.
Would he return with his bloodline intact,
with his bloodline minus the pts stolen,
without any bloodline at all,
or would he be dead?

I am interested in everyone's thoughts on this

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
ICQ: 2938300
Home Page: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss/birth.html

From the Darkness we came,
and to the Darkness we will return.

[David Sean Brown]

I actually had this happen at one point in my campaign. The PCs were of
pretty high levels (7-8ish) and have been raided mercilessly by the
spiders troops for years...they finally had enough and took the majoriy of
the army, and every unit they could muster into the Spider fell..after
losing 90% of their troops and 2 PCs getting to the center, they fought
the Spider and his guard, losing most of their remainig troops and another
2 Pcs..the remaining 3 Pcs and handfull of men watched in awe as the
paladin of Haelyn pierced the Spider through his heart, stealing his
bloodline..the paladin could feel this new divine essence flow into
him...however, as they set about cleaning up the bodies of the men they
had lost (they couldn't bring them all back with them, so they were going
to try a pyre)...the paladin felt an unusual sensation..and watched as ths
Spider rose again to fight them..after defeating him again, tehy decided
to keep sticking him intermittantly (they tried decapitation and even
dismemberment to keephim from regenerating, but no go) to keep him down.
at lenth, they drew lots to see who had to stay with the men and the still
moving corpse, and who had to go and try to find out how to keep this guy
down. Finding out howto keep the Spider truly dead made for several weeks
of entertaining gaming, and was enjoyed by all...

sean

[fhilbrandt]

Invulnerability implies that there is a specific method that must be used
to kill the individual with this blood ability, and that if this method is
not used, his bloodline and regency remain intact. Therefore, it may not
be possible to commit bloodtheft if the killing stroke through the heart is
not in the Spider's method of death.

At the minimum, the PC would return with his bloodline intact, though, in
all probability, he'll probably end up dead.

Fred Hilbrandt

- ----------
> From: Darkstar
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - A Question
> Date: Monday, October 27, 1997 16:32
>
> Just a quick question
>
> What would happen if a PC commited bloodtheft on the Spider, who has
> Invulnerability, and major regeneration so not easy to kill.
> Would he return with his bloodline intact,
> with his bloodline minus the pts stolen,
> without any bloodline at all,
> or would he be dead?
>
> I am interested in everyone's thoughts on this
>
> --
> Ian Hoskins
>
> e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
> ICQ: 2938300
> Home Page: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss/birth.html
>
> From the Darkness we came,
> and to the Darkness we will return.
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

[James Ruhland]

>
> What would happen if a PC commited bloodtheft on the Spider, who has
> Invulnerability, and major regeneration so not easy to kill.
> Would he return with his bloodline intact,
> with his bloodline minus the pts stolen,
> without any bloodline at all,
> or would he be dead?
>
If he isn't killed, can he really be victimized by Bloodtheft? I assume he
was brought to 0 hp, but, since he's regenerating and invulnerable, he
wasn't killed by the blows. Also, as a major Awensheg, he should be
particularly hard to victimize in this manner. But, it does bring up a q;
what happens to someone who is killed, and is a victim of bloodtheft, but
then is Raised, Ressurected, or otherwise brought back to life? My guess is
he or she would loose at least the points that were stolen, if not more. It
might be too much of a punishment to have 'em come back unblooded. I think
that this is one Ed will have to referee, ultimately...

[KAI BESTE]

> But, it does bring up a q;
> what happens to someone who is killed, and is a victim of bloodtheft, but
> then is Raised, Ressurected, or otherwise brought back to life? My guess is
> he or she would loose at least the points that were stolen, if not more. It
> might be too much of a punishment to have 'em come back unblooded. I think
> that this is one Ed will have to referee, ultimately...

I'd say they come back with their old derivation and strenght, but
only one blood point. Then they should get a chance to hunt down
their killer (in a certain amount of time) to get their bloodline
back. I didn't have the problem myself, but if the unforseen happens
I don't plan to use Raise Dead or Resurrect. Reincarnation is much
for fun...

just my 2GBs

Kai

[James Ruhland]

> Reincarnation is much
> for fun...
>
Speaking of which, has anyone developed a "BR-native" Reincarnation chart?
'Cause the ones suggested in the PH include creatures not found in Cerilia
(like comming back as an Orc...HEY! Perhaps that's how Da Ork Guard got in
here!...)

> I'd say they come back with their old derivation and strength, but only
one blood point...

That might be, IMO, to punative (comming back with only one point bloodline
strength). May as well just send 'em back unblooded, IMO (heck, they just
DIED facing the guy who stole their bloodline, probably not in better
condition now, considering that dude was either 1) killed by the rest of
the party shortly after he got you, and thus you can't get your point back
or 2) he won the battle, and stripped your body of all its magic items,
making off with them, and the other PCs recovered the body). So, come back
unblooded, and use the various ways of "persuading" some other poor blooded
sap to invest you with his bloodline...

> 2. Landed regents tend to be short on money in comparison to the
> guilds. Perhaps a little change of the taxation rules would be nice.

I second that; but change both the Trade rules and the tax rules; we don't
just want to make EVERYONE richer, we want to even it out (or do we; larger
armies, more funds? what kind of campaigns do people like? Or, just adjust
the cost of everything a bit?) One suggestion for Trade Routes could be to
divide the total by three, rather than by two, to get the income per turn.
(I.E. a TR from a Province [4] to a Province [6] would be 10/3=3 GB per
turn, instead of 5). As I said in a message I just sent, too, tax rolls can
take up TOO much time, IMO; has to be some better way to determine them.
How about this? A "Flat" tax level for all provinces (based on level and
tax rate), then a regional adjustment roll (so that you could get up to,
say, +25% to taxes in all your Provinces, or down to -25%); this, IMO,
would be a little more realistic, anyhow (when crops do well, or places are
prosperous, it tends to be over a wide area, not just localized with "boom"
in one area and "bust" the next province over), this also tends to
eliminate the smoothing out affect (trend towards the average) if you have
many provinces and holdings; the variation then doesn't affect you with the
current system, 'cause you can pretty much expect to get the average no
matter what, unless you get strange die rolls. With this system, you'd have
to plan better for poor times. Also, perhaps, some simple system to
determine the economic effect of letting raids, etc. go on in your
territories.

> 3. Mustering armies. It's unrealistic if I just snap my fingers and
> woops - there goes my elite infantry. Troups like that have to be
> trained or hired as mercenaries. Knights could be an exeption, they
> are not normal soldiers but vassals of the regent (at least in a
> feudal setting such as Anuire).

Then I'd like to see some kind of land/militia system. Bother to explain
it, but suffice to say that we* used to have a system of land grants to
soldiers, who would then be expected to maintain their equipment and
training, and muster from their THEMATA to form armies as required. The
land stayed in the trooper's family as long as they continued to provide
military service (thus, it became a self-perpetuating system, 'cause when
they got old or got killed, their son or other relative would take their
place). Thus it was an inexpensive way to keep trained troops on the muster
rolls without having to support them year round (they got paid an average
of 6 Nomismata--oh, that's GP to you blighters, per year in cash). System
worked rather well for about three centuries. In some ways this resembles
the fudal system of the west, but 1) not just "knights" (cavalry) were
supported by this system, infantry was as well and 2) Until the very end,
the central governement wasn't swiss-cheesed by landed nobles (dukes,
counts etc) who ended up with more power than they (I.E. France till about
1200 was weak as a kitten bec. of powerful, virtually independant nobles).

*We; the E. Roman Empire, aka "Byzantine" see, I told you you could pick up
ideas from history...

> 5. Rules for "conracting" Azrai's bloodline when you commit
> bloodtheft on one of his scions.

One such rule can be found in "Legends of the Hero Kings;"( P.70) if you
kill that Ogre dude, you might get it. But, it would certainly be nice to
have all the rules gathered into one sourcebook...

[Sepsis]

At 01:24 PM 10/28/97 CET, Kai Beste(BESTE@jerry.iued.uni-heidelberg.de)wrote:
>

>
>I don't plan to use Raise Dead or Resurrect. Reincarnation is much
>for fun...
>

I too only allow Reincarnation(the Priest version, not the Mage)in my BR
campaign. It fits the setting perfectly, particularly if you like the heavy
Arthurian feel. And those brought back do so minus any BL they may have
had. Although if they are the victim of Bloodtheft, I will allow them the
chance to reclaim their BL from the thief, but they have to find him/her
first. Raise Dead and Resurrection just doesn't feel right in BR, but thats
IMO. We will see the official take on this when BoP come out.


Sepsis, richt@metrolink.net (ICQ:3777956)

"War is a matter of vital importance to the State;
the province of life or death;
the road to survival or ruin.
It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied."
-Sun Tzu,(The Art of War)-

BR Netbook: http://webpages.metrolink.net/~veleda/birth.html

[Tripp Elliott]

James Ruhland wrote:
>
> > Reincarnation is much
> > for fun...
> >
> Speaking of which, has anyone developed a "BR-native" Reincarnation chart?
> 'Cause the ones suggested in the PH include creatures not found in Cerilia
> (like comming back as an Orc...HEY! Perhaps that's how Da Ork Guard got in
> here!...)

Sure is, check on the Netbook, I recall there being one for each
religion.

Tripp

[David Sean Brown]

> > 2. Landed regents tend to be short on money in comparison to the
> > guilds. Perhaps a little change of the taxation rules would be nice.

Why is this necessary..all the landed regent has to do is create a level 0
guild and start his/her own trade route..presto..problem solved, income
gained,

Sean

[KAI BESTE]

> > > 2. Landed regents tend to be short on money in comparison to the
> > > guilds. Perhaps a little change of the taxation rules would be nice.
>
> Why is this necessary..all the landed regent has to do is create a level 0
> guild and start his/her own trade route..presto..problem solved, income
> gained,

Easier said than done. If you take a look at the Ruins of Empire
almost all guild slosts (at least in the profitable provinces) are
filled. If a regent tries to create his own guild he will be opposed
by the guilder...not that it is a problem IMC, but in the PBeM I
played in it was a major problem for the landed rulers to get their
share of the pie. A lot of guilders refused to pay taxes unless
threatenedby the ruler.
IMHO, guilders get *way* too much money compared to the rest..

just my 2GBs

Kai

[KAI BESTE]

> > Reincarnation is much
> > for fun...
> >
> Speaking of which, has anyone developed a "BR-native" Reincarnation chart?
> 'Cause the ones suggested in the PH include creatures not found in Cerilia
> (like comming back as an Orc...HEY! Perhaps that's how Da Ork Guard got in
> here!...)

Check out the netbook, I think there were some tables...

> > I'd say they come back with their old derivation and strength, but only
> one blood point...
>
> That might be, IMO, to punative (comming back with only one point bloodline
> strength). May as well just send 'em back unblooded, IMO (heck, they just
> DIED facing the guy who stole their bloodline, probably not in better
> condition now, considering that dude was either 1) killed by the rest of
> the party shortly after he got you, and thus you can't get your point back
> or 2) he won the battle, and stripped your body of all its magic items,
> making off with them, and the other PCs recovered the body). So, come back
> unblooded, and use the various ways of "persuading" some other poor blooded
> sap to invest you with his bloodline...

But losing only one or two points would IMHO be too easy for the
character. One kill and you get them back...

> > 2. Landed regents tend to be short on money in comparison to the
> > guilds. Perhaps a little change of the taxation rules would be nice.

> the variation then doesn't affect you with the
> current system, 'cause you can pretty much expect to get the average no
> matter what, unless you get strange die rolls. With this system, you'd have
> to plan better for poor times. Also, perhaps, some simple system to
> determine the economic effect of letting raids, etc. go on in your
> territories.

Ok, that's what I wanted to say. A more even spread of wealth would
be good. And I had regents with a streak of high or low taxation, but
of course that isn't the norm.

> > 3. Mustering armies. It's unrealistic if I just snap my fingers and
> > woops - there goes my elite infantry. Troups like that have to be
> > trained or hired as mercenaries. Knights could be an exeption, they
> > are not normal soldiers but vassals of the regent (at least in a
> > feudal setting such as Anuire).


> Thus it was an inexpensive way to keep trained troops on the muster
> rolls without having to support them year round (they got paid an average
> of 6 Nomismata--oh, that's GP to you blighters, per year in cash). System
> worked rather well for about three centuries. In some ways this resembles
> the fudal system of the west, but 1) not just "knights" (cavalry) were
> supported by this system, infantry was as well and 2) Until the very end,
> the central governement wasn't swiss-cheesed by landed nobles (dukes,
> counts etc) who ended up with more power than they (I.E. France till about
> 1200 was weak as a kitten bec. of powerful, virtually independant nobles).

So was Germany when the Holy Roman Empire Germany slowly fell apart.
I knew the Romans gave land to retired legionairs, after 20 yers
service IIRC. But in mediaval times this was only done for knights. A
knight was granted a piece of land (and the people who lived on it)
in exchange for an oath of fealty. In times of peace the knight had
to oversea buisiness in his small "domain", and in times of war he
had to follow the call to arms. At the moment I'm trying to develop a
feudal system. The regent is on top, followed by some counts (one for
each province?) and then by knights.

> > 5. Rules for "conracting" Azrai's bloodline when you commit
> > bloodtheft on one of his scions.
>
> One such rule can be found in "Legends of the Hero Kings;"( P.70) if you
> kill that Ogre dude, you might get it. But, it would certainly be nice to
> have all the rules gathered into one sourcebook...

I know that rule, and I don't like it. If a character has a low
bloodline, it is almost guaranteed that he will be consumed by
Azrai's blood. I'd prefer a system that takes into account the
difference in blood points and the blood strength of the "recipient".
I came up with such a system a while back, but I don't have it at
hand right now.

just my 2GP (I'm a bit low on funds right now)

comments/ideas welcome, flames subject to magic resistance

Kai

[hobbychest@pcsia.co]

BI>> > 2. Landed regents tend to be short on money in comparison to the
BI>> > guilds. Perhaps a little change of the taxation rules would be nice.

BI>Why is this necessary..all the landed regent has to do is create a level 0
BI>guild and start his/her own trade route..presto..problem solved, income
BI>gained,

I don't like this solution to have to be forced. It isn't very
realistic that every regent has to own guild holdings. Not every king
should be a businessman. Lets allow for a little diversity.

Robert Thomson

[David Sean Brown]

No one said this had to be easy..why should income be an easy thing? :)
By the way, a level 0 guild requires no slot, and can be made in any
province (providiong it isn;t contested) The rebellious guilders are a
completely different matter. If they are giving you probs, use the law
holdings to take a pile of cash from them and as ruler of the province,
you have the power to cut off all their trade routes..no need to play nice
if they don't.

Sean


> > Why is this necessary..all the landed regent has to do is create a level 0
> > guild and start his/her own trade route..presto..problem solved, income
> > gained,
>
> Easier said than done. If you take a look at the Ruins of Empire
> almost all guild slosts (at least in the profitable provinces) are
> filled. If a regent tries to create his own guild he will be opposed
> by the guilder...not that it is a problem IMC, but in the PBeM I
> played in it was a major problem for the landed rulers to get their
> share of the pie. A lot of guilders refused to pay taxes unless
> threatenedby the ruler.
> IMHO, guilders get *way* too much money compared to the rest..
>
> just my 2GBs
>
> Kai
> ************************************************** *************************
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

[Sepsis]

At 02:37 PM 10/29/97 CET, Kai Beste(BESTE@jerry.iued.uni-heidelberg.de)wrote:
>
>> Speaking of which, has anyone developed a "BR-native" Reincarnation chart?
>> 'Cause the ones suggested in the PH include creatures not found in Cerilia
>> (like comming back as an Orc...HEY! Perhaps that's how Da Ork Guard got in
>> here!...)
>
>Check out the netbook, I think there were some tables...
>

I did create BR specific Reincarnation tables for the Netbook, but I will
warn you that Priests of Sera and Kriesha can bring you back as an Orc(or
even Half-Orc). This is because I use Orcs in my BR campaign. They are less
like standard AD&D Orcs(in personalirty anyway), and more like Neandertals.
They live in and around the Vos wastelands, as far from Humans as they can
get. If you don't like the idea of Orcs(or cavemen)just replace them with
another Humanoid of your choice.


Sepsis, richt@metrolink.net (ICQ:3777956)

"War is a matter of vital importance to the State;
the province of life or death;
the road to survival or ruin.
It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied."
-Sun Tzu,(The Art of War)-

BR Netbook: http://webpages.metrolink.net/~veleda/birth.html

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, KAI BESTE wrote:

> had to follow the call to arms. At the moment I'm trying to develop a
> feudal system. The regent is on top, followed by some counts (one for
> each province?) and then by knights.
>

I have always been assuming that each "province" was equivalent to a
County, i.e. ruled by a Count, under which there were a number of Barons,
equal to the population level of the province. I.e. in the County of
Ghoried in Roesone, which is a province (2/3) There is a count, and then
two Barons. Each of which can have multiple Knights as vassals (which can
be either landed, or non-landed: you may choose to give the landed Knights
the title "Baronet"). In a larger county, say County Calrie in Aerenwe,
which is 6/0, there is a Count (unless the Regent takes that as her
personal demesne) under which there are 6 Barons. However, due to the
vagarities of the feudal system, not all those Barons may actually owe
direct fealty to the Count. This is how I explain the ability of someone
other than the domain's regent to own law holdings: a certain number of
lords will lie outside of this direct pyramid, or are at best loosely tied
into it (they go through the words and actions, but everyone knows where
their true feelings lie). Thus the Barons of Caerwel in Medoere pay their
vassalage to the High Priest of Ruornil, but everyone knows that if it
comes down to choosing between him and Guilder Kalien, they'll side with
Kalien against their sworn oath of vassalage. It happened quite frequently
in medieval systems, particularly in times of conflict and war. Thus,
although the Barons in caerwil are technically vassals of the regent of
Medoere, their strings are REALLY pulled by Kalien, and he can make them
work against the regent if he wants them to. The regent of Medoere can get
real mad at them, and take their titles away from them, but that requires
him in effect to declare war on his own province, which has loyalty costs.
This system works pretty well. I actually have worked up the whole
heirarchy in one country (Osoerde) which I can post if anyone is
interested. It adds a lot of depth to a politically-oriented game. Further
complications can be added by using the sort of "half-ranks" like
viscount. For example, in Osoerde, I said that the ruler of County Moergen
was only allowed to take the title "viscount" once Raenech took the
throne, because he was a relative of the fugitive Prince. He still has all
the power and responsibility of a Count, but because they resurrected this
old title that hadn't really been used since the fall of the Empire, the
ruler was of lower rank than almost any other county ruler in the nation.
Needless to say, it stung.

Let me know if anyone wants me to spend the time typing up this heirarchy.
Time is something I do not have an abundance of right now, so I'll only do
it if there's interest.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[David Sean Brown]

>
> I don't like this solution to have to be forced. It isn't very
> realistic that every regent has to own guild holdings. Not every king
> should be a businessman. Lets allow for a little diversity.

What do you mean by diversity? There eally is only 3 ways to make money by
the rules..holding income (including trade routes and law claims),
province iownership and vassalage. If you want diversity, you have to
roleplay the gholdings..what kinds do the regents ahve as opposed to the
guilder? Who says a guild holding has to be a business..maybe it is an
information net the regent uses to pick up some $$ on the side? Perhaps
I'm just not understanfding what it is you mean, but...

Sean

[Andrew Kerle]

That sounds great... I'm Interested....

AJK

[hobbychest@pcsia.co]

BI>What do you mean by diversity? There eally is only 3 ways to make money by
BI>the rules..holding income (including trade routes and law claims),
BI>province iownership and vassalage. If you want diversity, you have to
BI>roleplay the gholdings..what kinds do the regents ahve as opposed to the
BI>guilder? Who says a guild holding has to be a business..maybe it is an
BI>information net the regent uses to pick up some $$ on the side? Perhaps
BI>I'm just not understanfding what it is you mean, but...

I'm saying the only way that works to make money right now is trade
routes. Trade routes require guilds. I don't think every regent should
have to have guild holdings in order to have enough money to survive.
If the other methods of getting money (taxes and temples) were balanced
with trade routes and guilds a little better, this wouldn't be the
situation.

Robert Thomson

[Brenda L Santer]

On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, KAI BESTE wrote:

> had to follow the call to arms. At the moment I'm trying to develop a
> feudal system. The regent is on top, followed by some counts (one for
> each province?) and then by knights.
>

Mark VanderMeulen replied:

>I have always been assuming that each "province" was equivalent to a
>County, i.e. ruled by a Count, under which there were a number of Barons,
>equal to the population level of the province. I.e. in the County of
>Ghoried in Roesone, which is a province (2/3) There is a count, and then
>two Barons.


It sounds like you have done a lot of work on this system Mark. However,
the problem with this system IMHO is that a whole lot of other titles then
have to be changed to accomodate it. The rules of various kingdoms may be
counts (as in Taeghas or Ilien), Dukes (as in Tuornen and Osoerde), Barons
(as in Diemed and Ghoere), Princes (as in Avanil), or Archdukes (as in
Boeruine), or Queen (as in Aerenwe), as well as the vaious titles that
indicate priestly rulers.

The various titles of baron, duke, count, prince, etc. all reflect the
status of the ancestor within the Empire before the Anuirean Empire fell
apart. At the present time, all of the barons, counts, dukes,princes, and
others are of equal rank--all rule countries. Although in the past, a Duke
may have controlled a larger area than a count and a count controlled a
larger area than a baron, this is no longer true (look at what the Baron of
Ghoere controlls).Changing all of the titles to reflect this system would
be a problem. Also, I like the fact that the vaious titles are o longer
indicative of status. For me, it is a constant reminder that things were
once different than they are now, and that the desire to rebuild the empire
is strong in Anuire still.


****************************************
Brenda Santer:

mailto:bsanter@sk.sympatico.ca
****************************************

[David Sean Brown]

This is true, but hasn't it been shown that even in real life, the
businessmen (be it legitimate or otherwise) tend to make more money than
the tax collection or religious dontion? Theoritecially, you shouldn't be
able to get rich by taxing your subjects..the income gained here is
supposed to be sufficient to upkeep the kingdom...to make more money than
this, it really should be necessary to branch out. One way is to apply
taxes to guilds and trade routes. This isn't the same as the taxes gained
through law holdings or provinces, but can be used just the same. In our
campaign, guilders are required to pay 1GB/3 guild levels they posess in
the regents domain. At first the guild tried to hold out, but when all
their trade routes were cut, they began to see the logic in it...


Sean



> I'm saying the only way that works to make money right now is trade
> routes. Trade routes require guilds. I don't think every regent should
> have to have guild holdings in order to have enough money to survive.
> If the other methods of getting money (taxes and temples) were balanced
> with trade routes and guilds a little better, this wouldn't be the
> situation.
>
> Robert Thomson
>
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

[Adam Theo]

James Ruhland wrote:
>
> >
> > What would happen if a PC commited bloodtheft on the Spider, who has
> > Invulnerability, and major regeneration so not easy to kill.
> > Would he return with his bloodline intact,
> > with his bloodline minus the pts stolen,
> > without any bloodline at all,
> > or would he be dead?
> >
> If he isn't killed, can he really be victimized by Bloodtheft? I assume he
> was brought to 0 hp, but, since he's regenerating and invulnerable, he
> wasn't killed by the blows. Also, as a major Awensheg, he should be
> particularly hard to victimize in this manner. But, it does bring up a q;
> what happens to someone who is killed, and is a victim of bloodtheft, but
> then is Raised, Ressurected, or otherwise brought back to life? My guess is
> he or she would loose at least the points that were stolen, if not more. It
> might be too much of a punishment to have 'em come back unblooded. I think
> that this is one Ed will have to referee, ultimately...
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> > - --
hello, Adam Theo here,
ok, here's what i would say:
since to get bloodtheft, the victim must be pierced throu the heart and
it must be the death blow (we all know this, right?). invulnerability
and regen. doesn't the awn. to be killed under normal circumstances. so
while the awn. is pierced through the heart, it is not the killing
blow. to actually kill the spider and steal it's bloodline, the pc's
must first find a way to supress or destroy it's ability to regen AND
invulnerability. then when they pierce the heart, it's bloodtheft.
otherwise, the pc doesn't get points and the awn lives. after being
"semi-dead" for a while. then he's back up and with a vengence.

adamtheo@usa.net Florida, USA
ICQ: 3617306 *Webmaster*
ichat: adamtheo want a website?
Destiny of Regents Birthright PBeM
* http://www.Geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2315

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Thu, 30 Oct 1997 hobbychest@pcsia.com wrote:

>
> I'm saying the only way that works to make money right now is trade
> routes. Trade routes require guilds. I don't think every regent should
> have to have guild holdings in order to have enough money to survive.
> If the other methods of getting money (taxes and temples) were balanced
> with trade routes and guilds a little better, this wouldn't be the
> situation.
>
> Robert Thomson

Perhaps the problem is that that you're spending too much money. In my
games, money has almost never been a problem (except to the mage, who has
no way of raising any, and thus must adventure or come to an agreement
with another regent). The only time it's ever a problem is when a regent
is raising a really huge army. Then they have to go to their guilder
regents and beg, borrow or steal the money they need. But this is hardly
unrealistic: medieval rulers were forever borrowing money in order to fund
their battles. King Richard the Lionheart borrowed heavily from the Jewish
moneylenders of England to go fight in the crusades, and then had to
borrow even more in order to pay his own ransom when he was captured by an
enemy on the way home. The take-home message: if you're going to go to
war, you need to get in bed with someone. Or be sure you've saved your
gold pieces for a VERY long time.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[hobbychest@pcsia.co]

BI>This is true, but hasn't it been shown that even in real life, the
BI>businessmen (be it legitimate or otherwise) tend to make more money than
BI>the tax collection or religious dontion?

You've got to be kidding right? Even Microsoft is insignificant
compared to the taxes of the US government.

Robert Thomson

[Daniel McSorley]

> From: hobbychest@pcsia.com
>
> BI>This is true, but hasn't it been shown that even in real life, the
> BI>businessmen (be it legitimate or otherwise) tend to make more money
than
> BI>the tax collection or religious dontion?
>
> You've got to be kidding right? Even Microsoft is insignificant
> compared to the taxes of the US government.
>
> Robert Thomson
>
Microsoft (using your example) doesn't control 50% or 75% of the economy,
as a guild (2) or (3) in a province (4) would. When compared to the Gross
National Product (Is that the right gross?) of the US, the Federal Gov't
really does only control a small amount. Besides, it would be pretty
rediculous to say that a gov't made more in taxes than the amount of money
in the economy of its country,

Daniel McSorley
mcsorley.1@osu.edu

[David Sean Brown]

Perhaps I wasn't clear when I made the following statement. I was
referring to net profits..you know, after all expenditure. Last time I
looked, the massive US government was running a massive defecit...

On Fri, 31 Oct 1997 hobbychest@pcsia.com wrote:

> BI>This is true, but hasn't it been shown that even in real life, the
> BI>businessmen (be it legitimate or otherwise) tend to make more money than
> BI>the tax collection or religious dontion?
>
> You've got to be kidding right? Even Microsoft is insignificant
> compared to the taxes of the US government.
>
> Robert Thomson
>
>
>
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

[Brian Stoner]

Tripp Elliott wrote:

> hobbychest@pcsia.com wrote:
>
> > You've got to be kidding right? Even Microsoft is insignificant
> > compared to the taxes of the US government.
>
> As an individual company yes. However if Bill Gates led the
> "Computers"
> Guild which encompassed all of the Computer Industry, and there was a
> "Petroleum" Guild, then you are starting to get where Birthright is.
>
> Tripp
>

Remember Standard Oil from the late 1800s? There was no other
petrolium company in the US. Monopolies can be quite powerful.
However, the government was responsible for breaking the monopolies of
that era. Thus, even at their greatest height, they can be vulnerable
to the ruler. Money isn't everything (even if that is what a lot of
guilders think), the law of the land can overpower the rich. Granted,
it takes a "great/unique" ruler like Teddy Roosevelt to accomplish such
a thing. Thus, in BR, if a monopolistic guild were to establish itself,
it would take a mighty powerful regent to stop it (if that is the
wish)...perhaps an emperor...

Brian

[Brian Stoner]

Tripp Elliott wrote:

> hobbychest@pcsia.com wrote:
>
> > You've got to be kidding right? Even Microsoft is insignificant
> > compared to the taxes of the US government.
>
> As an individual company yes. However if Bill Gates led the
> "Computers"
> Guild which encompassed all of the Computer Industry, and there was a
> "Petroleum" Guild, then you are starting to get where Birthright is.
>
> Tripp
>

Remember Standard Oil from the late 1800s? There was no other
petrolium company in the US. Monopolies can be quite powerful.
However, the government was responsible for breaking the monopolies of
that era. Thus, even at their greatest height, they can be vulnerable
to the ruler. Money isn't everything (even if that is what a lot of
guilders think), the law of the land can overpower the rich. Granted,
it takes a "great/unique" ruler like Teddy Roosevelt to accomplish such
a thing. Thus, in BR, if a monopolistic guild were to establish itself,
it would take a mighty powerful regent to stop it (if that is the
wish)...perhaps an emperor...

Brian

[Tripp Elliott]

hobbychest@pcsia.com wrote:

> You've got to be kidding right? Even Microsoft is insignificant
> compared to the taxes of the US government.

As an individual company yes. However if Bill Gates led the "Computers"
Guild which encompassed all of the Computer Industry, and there was a
"Petroleum" Guild, then you are starting to get where Birthright is.

Tripp

[James Ruhland]

> Microsoft (using your example) doesn't control 50% or 75% of the
economy,
> as a guild (2) or (3) in a province (4) would. When compared to the
Gross
> National Product (Is that the right gross?) of the US, the Federal Gov't
> really does only control a small amount. Besides, it would be pretty
> rediculous to say that a gov't made more in taxes than the amount of
money
> in the economy of its country,
>
Question now becomes; do guilds represent control over 50% or 75% of the
economy when they are level (2) or (3) in a province (4), or do they
represent 50/75% of the *trade related* economy (which in a
midieval/renaisance economy is a small proportion of the whole). I.E. do
"guilds" represent control over 50/75% of the land and pesants that produce
most of the wealth in an agricultural society? I can't imagine any nation
let one enterprise control such a large percentage of the economy, unless
the controler represents the governenment as well.

[James Ruhland]

>
> Perhaps I wasn't clear when I made the following statement. I was
> referring to net profits..you know, after all expenditure. Last time I
> looked, the massive US government was running a massive defecit...
>
True, but that doesn't mean they bring in less income; they just spend more
than they bring in. So my critique stands.

> Guilders make more money than rulers because they don't spend money on
> armies. They use their money to influence others, rulers can use their
> armies for that...

Guilders *net* more money than rulers because they don't spend money on
armies. That doesn't mean they should be collecting more to begin with
(unless rulers get some "free" armies to represent the stuff they spent the
cash on.) C'mon--100GB/turn in income for a guild, 25GB/turn for a
similarly sized landed realm (which doesn't have trade routes)? Kind of a
disparity. But I tire of this debate, especially since everyone else seems
to be happy with the system as it is now. So this is (I hope) the last I'll
say about it.

> You CAN use RPs to rule up a province, it's the example they use in the
> Rulebook for resolving actions. Ruling up a province does not increase
> population, but increases the amount that a province is exploited, its
> deviation from the natural state of the land. The population increase is
> incidental.

1) The population increase is far from incidental (see P. 33-34 of the
rulebook). 2) Yes, *now* you can use regency to rule up a province; but I
think this got started during Ed's request for rule change suggestions; the
q. is, should you be able to? Should you be able to easily increase the
level of your provinces the same way you can with other holdings, or does
it make the game less interesting/too easy/unrealistic?

[Brian Stoner]

Daniel McSorley wrote:

> > From: hobbychest@pcsia.com
> >
> > BI>This is true, but hasn't it been shown that even in real life,
> the
> > BI>businessmen (be it legitimate or otherwise) tend to make more
> money
> than
> > BI>the tax collection or religious dontion?
> >
> > You've got to be kidding right? Even Microsoft is insignificant
> > compared to the taxes of the US government.
> >
> > Robert Thomson
> >
> Microsoft (using your example) doesn't control 50% or 75% of
> the economy,
> as a guild (2) or (3) in a province (4) would. When compared to the
> Gross
> National Product (Is that the right gross?) of the US, the Federal
> Gov't
> really does only control a small amount. Besides, it would be pretty
> rediculous to say that a gov't made more in taxes than the amount of
> money
> in the economy of its country,
>
> Daniel McSorley
> mcsorley.1@osu.edu
>

The US government is the single larges employer in the country,
though. Of course that is mostly because of it's statistical
departments... This wouldn't really apply to a medieval world...

Brian

[Adam Theo]

KAI BESTE wrote:
>
> > But, it does bring up a q;
> > what happens to someone who is killed, and is a victim of bloodtheft, but
> > then is Raised, Ressurected, or otherwise brought back to life? My guess is
> > he or she would loose at least the points that were stolen, if not more. It
> > might be too much of a punishment to have 'em come back unblooded. I think
> > that this is one Ed will have to referee, ultimately...
>
> I'd say they come back with their old derivation and strenght, but
> only one blood point. Then they should get a chance to hunt down
> their killer (in a certain amount of time) to get their bloodline
> back. I didn't have the problem myself, but if the unforseen happens
> I don't plan to use Raise Dead or Resurrect. Reincarnation is much
> for fun...
>
> just my 2GBs
>
> Kai
> ************************************************** *************************
> > - --
hello, Adam Theo here,
i would say that this is how it would work in my campaign:
the person who was the victim of the bloodtheft: when he acme back, he
would have a tainted line of the same deriviation as he had before.
roll for any blood abilities at that tainted level. he would be able to
feel the general direction and distance of the one who took his
bloodline. if the victim seeks the stealer out and confronts him, if
the victim wins the fight by killing the staeler, then the victim is
restored to his former level and abilities as he had before the theft.
if the victim commits bloodtheft on the thief, then the victim is
restored and gains a point. any blood abilities that the victim had
from the tainted bloodline remain and are added to the list of ones that
he gains back at the death of the stealer. if the stealer wins the
fight by bloodtheft, then the stealer gains a point of strength, but
maybe also some really cool role-playing story plot thingie (since he
took the bloodline of a ressurected man, then he himself looses the
point of CON, or he is plauged with nightmares of death and ghosts, etc)

adamtheo@usa.net Florida, USA
adamtheo@hotmail.com *Webmaster* want a website?
ICQ: 3617306 *page me at http://wwp.mirabilis.com/3617306
ichat: adamtheo

Destiny of Regents Birthright PBeM
* http://www.Geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2315

[Adam Theo]

KAI BESTE wrote:
>
> > But, it does bring up a q;
> > what happens to someone who is killed, and is a victim of bloodtheft, but
> > then is Raised, Ressurected, or otherwise brought back to life? My guess is
> > he or she would loose at least the points that were stolen, if not more. It
> > might be too much of a punishment to have 'em come back unblooded. I think
> > that this is one Ed will have to referee, ultimately...
>
> I'd say they come back with their old derivation and strenght, but
> only one blood point. Then they should get a chance to hunt down
> their killer (in a certain amount of time) to get their bloodline
> back. I didn't have the problem myself, but if the unforseen happens
> I don't plan to use Raise Dead or Resurrect. Reincarnation is much
> for fun...
>
> just my 2GBs
>
> Kai
> ************************************************** *************************
> > - --
hello, Adam Theo here,
i would say that this is how it would work in my campaign:
the person who was the victim of the bloodtheft: when he acme back, he
would have a tainted line of the same deriviation as he had before.
roll for any blood abilities at that tainted level. he would be able to
feel the general direction and distance of the one who took his
bloodline. if the victim seeks the stealer out and confronts him, if
the victim wins the fight by killing the staeler, then the victim is
restored to his former level and abilities as he had before the theft.
if the victim commits bloodtheft on the thief, then the victim is
restored and gains a point. any blood abilities that the victim had
from the tainted bloodline remain and are added to the list of ones that
he gains back at the death of the stealer. if the stealer wins the
fight by bloodtheft, then the stealer gains a point of strength, but
maybe also some really cool role-playing story plot thingie (since he
took the bloodline of a ressurected man, then he himself looses the
point of CON, or he is plauged with nightmares of death and ghosts, etc)

adamtheo@usa.net Florida, USA
adamtheo@hotmail.com *Webmaster* want a website?
ICQ: 3617306 *page me at http://wwp.mirabilis.com/3617306
ichat: adamtheo

Destiny of Regents Birthright PBeM
* http://www.Geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2315