About el^D^D Goblin players

[Neil Barnes]

On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Ed Stark wrote:
> Goblin: 30% (If you use humanoids, these guys have a hard time adventuring
> in predominatly human-centric Cerilia)
> Orog: 5% (Moreso)
> Gnoll: Nil (Sorry, I just can't see it)

Ed - since everyone has been suggesting things they'd like to see more
of in the game, I'd like to ask for more Goblins. Short, squat and
brutish, with an elven sized chip on their shoulders; you always know
you can trust the Goblin PC far more than that elf over there.

If you do any more Players secret thingees, lets see one for Thurazor.

After all, what could be more fun than ruling a kingdom full of creature
who keep collections of what they find when they pick their noses? :)

neil

[Ed Stark]

At 10:58 AM 10/20/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Ed - since everyone has been suggesting things they'd like to see more
>of in the game, I'd like to ask for more Goblins. Short, squat and
>brutish, with an elven sized chip on their shoulders; you always know
>you can trust the Goblin PC far more than that elf over there.
>
>If you do any more Players secret thingees, lets see one for Thurazor.
>
>After all, what could be more fun than ruling a kingdom full of creature
>who keep collections of what they find when they pick their noses? :)
>
Do you mean magic nose goblins? ;-)

Seriously, I always believe the original designers intended goblins to be a
possible PC race in BR. I haven't asked Rich about it ... he's back on the
list, maybe he'll answer ... but BR always seemed like a place where PCs,
NPCs, and monsters all have a little more background to them than just
stats and flat rulings.
Somebody posted some interesting stat modifiers for goblin PCs and some
other material a while ago; I didn't get a chance to go over it in detail,
but it looked like a pretty good idea.


Ed Stark
Game Designer, Wizards of the Coast/TSR Division
Asst. Brand Manager, BIRTHRIGHT/GREYHAWK/MARVEL Group
TSR Website: http://www.tsrinc.com

[RTomasz184@aol.co]

hey everybody got to: http://members.aol.com/blooddm/PBEMmain.html
to check out the the pbem game with my goblin king character and the funny
messages he leaves hes also a growing succesful merchant

[RTomasz184@aol.co]

hi i run thurazor in a pbem game and my characters my goblin Morg valasar aka
the specter a minor awensheglien loves to torment paladins with his quick wit
and is very charming and cunning he also hopes to acsend to godhood after
taking control of all the goblin lands and proclaims to be just a merchant
actually a figter thief his funny and intresting any way to get a gb money
schemes like dolls of regents and other wacky stuff has made the game quite
intresting and humerous
rob

[Darkstar]

Ed Stark wrote:

> Somebody posted some interesting stat modifiers for goblin PCs and some
> other material a while ago; I didn't get a chance to go over it in detail,
> but it looked like a pretty good idea.

This material and some more about Orog and Gnoll PC's is avalible on my
webpage (address below)
I have a copy of most of the info that has been posted on my page now
for anyone who is interested.

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
ICQ: 2938300
Home Page: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss/birth.html

From the Darkness we came,
and to the Darkness we will return.

[Rich Baker]

>Seriously, I always believe the original designers intended goblins to be a
>possible PC race in BR. I haven't asked Rich about it ... he's back on the
>list, maybe he'll answer ... but BR always seemed like a place where PCs,
>NPCs, and monsters all have a little more background to them than just
>stats and flat rulings.
>Somebody posted some interesting stat modifiers for goblin PCs and some
>other material a while ago; I didn't get a chance to go over it in detail,
>but it looked like a pretty good idea.
>
>
>Ed Stark
>Game Designer, Wizards of the Coast/TSR Division

Once again, Ed, you hit the nail on the head. I did think of setting up
goblin-kind as a potential PC race in Cerilia. In general, they're
stronger, smarter, and more civilized (marginally) than goblin-kind in
other game worlds. I didn't get to it in the initial boxed set, but there's
no reason you couldn't add goblins without too much work. I'd suggest the
Complete Book of Humanoids as a basic guideline.

The first decision for your goblin PC is which sub-race (common, elite, or
huge) he comes from. Common goblins are, well, goblins. Elite goblins are
equivalent to hobgoblins. Huge goblins are akin to bugbears. I'd apply the
following racial modifiers:

Common: STR -1, CHA -2, DEX +2, CON +1
Elite: CHA -1, CON +1
Huge: STR +2, CON +1, DEX -1, CHA -2

About the only special racial ability I can think of for Cerilian goblins
is infravision, and maybe some mining skills. Unlike other goblins, they're
not penalized by bright light. Common goblins can be fighters, magicians,
priests, or thieves (that's what they're best at); elite goblins can be
fighters, magicians, priests, or thieves (they're pretty good at any of
'em); and huge goblins are fighters or priests, and they're much better at
being fighters.

So, that's my first thoughts on goblin PCs. What do you guys think? And how
would a goblin domain differ from a human domain? Would goblin regents
operate by any special rules?

Rich Baker
Birthright Designer

[RTomasz184@aol.co]

anybody ever read the spider test it talks about goblin pcs and1/2 orogs its
a really good novel check it out
rob

[Ken & Mary]

A rough idea for goblin regents is machismo factor. The goblin regent's
rulership is determined by his popularity with the rest of population vs
other goblins contesting his authority. For example for each province
the goblin regent rules in the domain requires 1d6 roll.(to represent
upstarts and other obnoxious goblins)
The results are 1= 1 free domain action.
2= 2 goldbars or 2 regency points(player's choice).
3= Roll on the domain event chart again.
4= -1 regency point cost do to doubt about the regent's authority.
5= -2 regency points cost do to doubt about the regent's authority.
6= -1 gold bar for mismanagement or theft.
Any comments or critiques, I leave up to your desires or whims.

[Tripp Elliott]

Rich Baker wrote:

> Once again, Ed, you hit the nail on the head. I did think of setting up
> goblin-kind as a potential PC race in Cerilia. In general, they're
> stronger, smarter, and more civilized (marginally) than goblin-kind in
> other game worlds. I didn't get to it in the initial boxed set, but there's
> no reason you couldn't add goblins without too much work. I'd suggest the
> Complete Book of Humanoids as a basic guideline.
>
> The first decision for your goblin PC is which sub-race (common, elite, or
> huge) he comes from. Common goblins are, well, goblins. Elite goblins are
> equivalent to hobgoblins. Huge goblins are akin to bugbears. I'd apply the
> following racial modifiers:
>
> Common: STR -1, CHA -2, DEX +2, CON +1
> Elite: CHA -1, CON +1
> Huge: STR +2, CON +1, DEX -1, CHA -2
>
> About the only special racial ability I can think of for Cerilian goblins
> is infravision, and maybe some mining skills. Unlike other goblins, they're
> not penalized by bright light. Common goblins can be fighters, magicians,
> priests, or thieves (that's what they're best at); elite goblins can be
> fighters, magicians, priests, or thieves (they're pretty good at any of
> 'em); and huge goblins are fighters or priests, and they're much better at
> being fighters.
>
> So, that's my first thoughts on goblin PCs. What do you guys think? And how
> would a goblin domain differ from a human domain? Would goblin regents
> operate by any special rules?
>
> Rich Baker
> Birthright Designer

This is pretty close to what appears on the Netbook, check that out
Rich, and see if you pretty much agree with it.

Tripp

[Ed Stark]

At 09:10 AM 10/21/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Once again, Ed, you hit the nail on the head. I did think of setting up
>goblin-kind as a potential PC race in Cerilia. In general, they're
>stronger, smarter, and more civilized (marginally) than goblin-kind in
>other game worlds. I didn't get to it in the initial boxed set, but there's
>no reason you couldn't add goblins without too much work. I'd suggest the
>Complete Book of Humanoids as a basic guideline.
>
>The first decision for your goblin PC is which sub-race (common, elite, or
>huge) he comes from. Common goblins are, well, goblins. Elite goblins are
>equivalent to hobgoblins. Huge goblins are akin to bugbears. I'd apply the
>following racial modifiers:
>
> Common: STR -1, CHA -2, DEX +2, CON +1
> Elite: CHA -1, CON +1
> Huge: STR +2, CON +1, DEX -1, CHA -2
>
>About the only special racial ability I can think of for Cerilian goblins
>is infravision, and maybe some mining skills. Unlike other goblins, they're
>not penalized by bright light. Common goblins can be fighters, magicians,
>priests, or thieves (that's what they're best at); elite goblins can be
>fighters, magicians, priests, or thieves (they're pretty good at any of
>'em); and huge goblins are fighters or priests, and they're much better at
>being fighters.
>
>So, that's my first thoughts on goblin PCs. What do you guys think? And how
>would a goblin domain differ from a human domain? Would goblin regents
>operate by any special rules?
>
>Rich Baker
>Birthright Designer
>
Is the "type" of goblin a racial thing (within the species), or more
something of their own level system. I mean, is one born to be a common,
elite, or huge goblin, or is that simply a measure of success/luck? The
average human, for example, has, what 9s and 10s in every stat, right--but
characters exist with 17s and 18s. Viewed in the same way, wouldn't they be
"huge" or "elite"?

What I'm getting at here is, shouldn't there be one set of stat modifiers
for goblin PCs and they end up defining (as well as their dice rolls) what
sort of goblin they are going to be.

Just a thought.
-- ->-- ->-- ->--@
Ed Stark
Game Designer, Wizards of the Coast/TSR Division
Asst. Brand Manager, BIRTHRIGHT/GREYHAWK/MARVEL Group
TSR Website: http://www.tsrinc.com

[RTomasz184@aol.co]

one thing about goblins is they rule by might makes right and survival of the
strongest and smartest i think some like thurazor are equal to humans and
some like spiderfell are less then vos civilizationwise i think they can get
more out of their resources then the other races since their use to survivng
and scrounging and can make do with less also their more attuned to nature
then humans if you read the spiders test
rob

[Craig Greeson]

>
> >
> Is the "type" of goblin a racial thing (within the species), or more
> something of their own level system. I mean, is one born to be a common,
> elite, or huge goblin, or is that simply a measure of success/luck? The
> average human, for example, has, what 9s and 10s in every stat, right--but
> characters exist with 17s and 18s. Viewed in the same way, wouldn't they be
> "huge" or "elite"?
>
> What I'm getting at here is, shouldn't there be one set of stat modifiers
> for goblin PCs and they end up defining (as well as their dice rolls) what
> sort of goblin they are going to be.
>
> Just a thought.
> -- ->-- ->-- ->--@
> Ed Stark
> Game Designer, Wizards of the Coast/TSR Division
> Asst. Brand Manager, BIRTHRIGHT/GREYHAWK/MARVEL Group
> TSR Website: http://www.tsrinc.com
> ************************************************** *************************
>

Hmmmm...I was always under the impression that standard, elite, and huge
goblins were 3 different "races" of goblins. As I read Rich Baker's earlier
post on this topic, I still thought my assumption was correct. Ed now has me
wondering if a goblin is a goblin is a goblin. Perhaps Rich could clear this
up.
Regardless of the answer to this question, I agree that goblins on Cerilia
are very interesting. My PCs are planning to launch a campaign to retake
Thurazor for the elves. They're expecting this to be a piece of cake, but I
have a feeling they're going to find Tie'skar Graecher and friends a bit tougher
than the pushover goblins they've known on other campaign worlds.

Regards
Craig

[Neil Barnes]

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Craig Greeson wrote:
> Regardless of the answer to this question, I agree that goblins on Cerilia
> are very interesting. My PCs are planning to launch a campaign to retake
> Thurazor for the elves. They're expecting this to be a piece of cake, but I
> have a feeling they're going to find Tie'skar Graecher and friends a bit tougher
> than the pushover goblins they've known on other campaign worlds.

What are they planning to do with the goblins? They're either going to
have to kill them all, enslave them or exile them. The surrounding human
realms might ally with the Goblins to avoid this.... (a bunch of goblins
on your border is a lot easier than a bunch of elves :)

I hope you don't let the players get away with anything too nasty to the
goblins.

neil

[Wrb41977@aol.co]

In a message dated 97-10-28 14:56:27 EST, you write:

Regardless of the answer to this question, I agree that goblins on
Cerilia
> are very interesting. My PCs are planning to launch a campaign to retake
> Thurazor for the elves. They're expecting this to be a piece of cake, but
I
> have a feeling they're going to find Tie'skar Graecher and friends a bit
tougher
> than the pushover goblins they've known on other campaign worlds.

What are they planning to do with the goblins? They're either going to
have to kill them all, enslave them or exile them. The surrounding human
realms might ally with the Goblins to avoid this.... (a bunch of goblins
on your border is a lot easier than a bunch of elves :)>>

My view on this would be that if the PCs manage to defeat King Graecher, that
they would either flee into the Five Peaks (more mercenaries for the bad
guys), or they cause monsters random events through Cariele and Dhoesone
before entering Markazor (more troops for the Gorgon).

[Darkstar]

James Ruhland wrote:
>
> >
> > My view on this would be that if the PCs manage to defeat King Graecher,
> that
> > they would either flee into the Five Peaks (more mercenaries for the bad
> > guys), or they cause monsters random events through Cariele and Dhoesone
> > before entering Markazor (more troops for the Gorgon).
>
> How convienient...

Very, I would do much the same. The only way the Elves could totally
reclaim Thurazor would be to drive out the Goblins all together. This
would mean all the goblin, even the really little ones. All of these
goblins would have to go somewhere, the Five Peaks is close and
convenient. Perhaps King Graecher would set himself up as ruler of the
Five Peaks and plot a return to his kingdom at the head of a new army.

I do this all the time with defeat regents in my games. Soemtimes the
players find that regents they thought are dead return and attempt to
retake their lost lands.

Hint: check out Kiergard's info on my pbem pages, see if you notice
anything interesting there.

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
ICQ: 2938300
Home Page: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss/birth.html

From the Darkness we came,
and to the Darkness we will return.

[Craig Greeson]

> My PCs are planning to launch a campaign to retake
> Thurazor for the elves. They're expecting this to be a piece of cake, but
> I have a feeling they're going to find Tie'skar Graecher and friends a bit
> tougher than the pushover goblins they've known on other campaign worlds.
>
> What are they planning to do with the goblins? They're either going to
> have to kill them all, enslave them or exile them. The surrounding human
> realms might ally with the Goblins to avoid this.... (a bunch of goblins
> on your border is a lot easier than a bunch of elves :)>>
>
> My view on this would be that if the PCs manage to defeat King Graecher, that
> they would either flee into the Five Peaks (more mercenaries for the bad
> guys), or they cause monsters random events through Cariele and Dhoesone
> before entering Markazor (more troops for the Gorgon).

Greetings,
My 2 sentence campaign idea has been jabbed 3 times today. :-) It must be
time to give some details so it can be fully roasted. The campaign focuses on
forging a new elven realm because my players want to be elven regents in Anuire,
and I've always been a bit disappointed with the placement of Tuarhievel and the
Sielwode. Cerilia is a land where humans (and Awnsheghlien) rule, but these 2
realms definitely have it rough. Tuarhievel is the only free land in Anuire with
a direct border on the Gorgon's Crown, and the Sielwode has 5 provinces that
border the Gorgon's vassals. PC regents of these realms would always know that
only by the DMs mercy were they not involved in a war with a neighbor they could
never defeat.
The PCs are trying to retake Thurazor by enlisting the help of the Eyeless
One (Hmmm, I wonder if he can be trusted?). Their current plan is for the
Eyeless One to cast Death Plague to begin eliminating some of the goblins. They
will then infiltrate the realm and create havoc by aiding one of Tie'skar's
rivals to begin a civil war. Forces then move in from Dhoesone and try to take
the eastern provinces of Thurazor. They'll pillage the provinces until they're
driven down to level 0, then start ruling them up as elves move in (most of these
elves will be from an island to the west that's in trouble, but that's another
topic). Later, they'll try to take western Thurazor. My plan is to have goblin
refugees swell the population of Five Peaks.
The Five Peaks, after initial turmoil, will become a powerful realm of
goblins and outlaw humans. This will be a permanent antagonist for the new PC
realm. Talinie and Cariele will not be pleased with the new elven neighbors, and
Boeruine, Tuornen, Alamie, and Mhoried will not like the new strength of the Five
Peaks.
All right, elf-haters, let those fireballs fly. Oh wait, you don't have the
blood needed to cast true magic? Too bad. Seriously, any suggestions on how to
make this campaign fly would be welcomed.
BTW, I started this thread as a little question about whether there were 3
separate races of goblins or just sm, med, and lg versions of the same race. If
Rich Baker reads this, could you please answer that question?

Regards
Craig

[James Ruhland]

> Greetings,
> My 2 sentence campaign idea has been jabbed 3 times today. :-) It
must be
> time to give some details so it can be fully roasted. The campaign
focuses on
> forging a new elven realm because my players want to be elven regents in
Anuire,
> and I've always been a bit disappointed with the placement of Tuarhievel
and the
> Sielwode. Cerilia is a land where humans (and Awnsheghlien) rule, but
these 2
> realms definitely have it rough. Tuarhievel is the only free land in
Anuire with
> a direct border on the Gorgon's Crown, and the Sielwode has 5 provinces
that
> border the Gorgon's vassals. PC regents of these realms would always
know that
> only by the DMs mercy were they not involved in a war with a neighbor
they could
> never defeat.
>
they have it rough on the one hand, being so close to the big bad guy, but
on the other hand both realms posess powerful artifacts and magic that the
human realms do not have--thus they survive, while The Big 'G' periodically
reaves the human realms of Anuire.

> The PCs are trying to retake Thurazor by enlisting the help of the
Eyeless
> One (Hmmm, I wonder if he can be trusted?).

Yah, Shuuuurrreee he can ::wink::

Their current plan is for the
> Eyeless One to cast Death Plague to begin eliminating some of the
goblins.

He's doing this for them because?
They
> will then infiltrate the realm and create havoc by aiding one of
Tie'skar's
> rivals to begin a civil war. Forces then move in from Dhoesone and try
to take
> the eastern provinces of Thurazor.

They have D.s permission, I assume...Always some goblinoid who thinks he'd
make a good king, so that's a good plan. If I were advising the players,
though, I'd point out that ol' Tie'skar may seem weak, but he, and his
realm, has survived a long time surrounded by enemies...

They'll pillage the provinces until they're
> driven down to level 0, then start ruling them up as elves move in (most
of these
> elves will be from an island to the west that's in trouble, but that's
another
> topic). Later, they'll try to take western Thurazor. My plan is to have
goblin
> refugees swell the population of Five Peaks.
>
Dat explains dat. (your plan? you wouldn't be saying that as DM you're
assuring the player's victory, are you? tich tich...)

> All right, elf-haters, let those fireballs fly. Oh wait, you don't
have the
> blood needed to cast true magic? Too bad. Seriously, any suggestions on
how to
> make this campaign fly would be welcomed.
>
Actually, for all I've seemed to rip on it, not a bad plan. resembles a
idea I had for the future (giving T. to the Elves, once I've pieced most of
Anuire back together under my control). Never got that far in my campaigns,
though...

[prtr02@scorpion.nspco.co]

The Goblin cardsheet specifically states that BR goblins are all members of the
same species. I've always treated 'em that way. I think it makes them unique
as opposed to the "standard" AD&D goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears.

Randax

[Bryan Ruther]

Ed Stark wrote:

> Is the "type" of goblin a racial thing (within the species), or more
> something of their own level system. I mean, is one born to be a common,
> elite, or huge goblin, or is that simply a measure of success/luck? The
> average human, for example, has, what 9s and 10s in every stat, right--but
> characters exist with 17s and 18s. Viewed in the same way, wouldn't they be
> "huge" or "elite"?
>
> What I'm getting at here is, shouldn't there be one set of stat modifiers
> for goblin PCs and they end up defining (as well as their dice rolls) what
> sort of goblin they are going to be.
>
> Just a thought.
> -- ->-- ->-- ->--@
> Ed Stark

I wrote the information in the netbook about goblin PCs, but I was also
discussingoff the list with Jeremy Reaban (who also posted some information
about Goblin PCs)
about rules for races not covered in the Birthright Rule Book. As a random
thought
in our discussion I came up with the following which does go along with Ed's
above written thought.

Bryan

"I have recently had
an idea that perhaps classification of goblins as described in the BR material
is only
what humans call the different sizes of goblins, yet all different groups and
sizes
live in the same tribe, maybe their level limits could be much more closely
tied to
their stats, something like this:
Class
Attribute Fighter Priest Mage Thief
9 5 4 - 4
10 6 5 - 5
11 6 5 3 6
12 7 6 3 7
13 7 6 4 8
14 8 7 4 9
15 8 7 5 10
16 9 7 5 10
17 9 8 6 11
18 10 8 6 11
19 11 9 7 12
20 12 9 7 13

I know that probably looks skrewy thru email, but you get the idea,
what do you think?"

You could allow Goblin PCs to take up to 3 points in Bonuses to any phyiscal
stat (no stat. better than +2) with a coreesponding penality to a mental stat.
or vice versa


- --
Mankind being originally equals in the order of creation,
the equality could only be destroyed by some subsequent
circumstance...
Thomas Paine, Common Sense

[FRANKEN*RC]

i thought the cerelian goblin was still basicly the standard goblin,
hobgoblin and bugbear. So i guess they were born that way. :)
Goblins are the brains and Bugbears the muscle. :)

[Chrys murphy]

It's only a minor point but they are all subraces of goblin and not actually
goblind Hobgoblins & Bugbears, those races were just used for a size/power
comparison to help regular AD&Ders to picture what the different subraces are
like

FRANKEN*RC wrote:

> i thought the cerelian goblin was still basicly the standard goblin,
> hobgoblin and bugbear. So i guess they were born that way. :)
> Goblins are the brains and Bugbears the muscle. :)
> ************************************************** *************************
> >