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Osprey
03-04-2004, 05:41 PM
In the Ch. 2 Revision thread I examined the prevailing system for determining bloodlines of scion children. As I personally find it a bit lacking in explaining the current state of affairs as regents and scions go, I said I'd post an alternative system for determining the bloodlines of children born of the union of 2 scions. Here it is:

Childrenís Bloodlines
Typical:
Childís Bloodline Strength = Stronger parentís (minor, major, great, true). If the parentsí strengths are more than 1 step removed (ex., great and minor), the childís strength is one level below the stronger parentís strength. So a great and a minor bloodline joined would produce a child with a major bloodline. A True bloodline joined with anything less than a great bloodline would produce a great bloodline.

Typical Childís Bloodline Score = average of parentsí scores (round up).

Variations:

Bloodline Score: Roll 1d6. If a 1 is rolled, subtract 1d6 from the typical score (avg. of parentsí bloodline scores). If a 6 is rolled, add 1d6 to the typical score. A roll of 2-5 yields an average score.

Bloodline Derivation: A stronger bloodline strength in one of the parents (great over major or minor, major over minor, true over all other strengths) always determines the childís derivation. If the parentsí bloodline strengths are equal, then the parents make a contested Bloodline check to determine derivation, with ties favoring the higher bloodline score.

Osprey
03-04-2004, 05:45 PM
And for those who don't want to go diggin in the other thread, here's a repost of what I said in the Ch 2 Revision thread:

Concerning heirs and the inheritance of bloodlines through birth. On p. 1 it says,


Children always share the bloodline derivation of one of their parents. This derivation is generally inherited from the parent with the strongest bloodline, although this is not always the case. The bloodline strength of the child is generally that of the parent having the weakest bloodline strength (or minor, if one of the parents is non-blooded).


As an example, this would mean a Great Bloodline of Anduiras mated with a Major Bloodline of Reynir would "generally" produce a Major Bloodline of Anduiras.

What this means, though, is that Great bloodlines can only be sustained over the generations by mating Great with Great or True bloodlines! Given the extreme rarity of Great bloodlines, how are there any surviving Great bloodlines at all? We are talking about 2000 years of breeding here, and inbreeding would be taking a very serious toll by this time among the Great bloodlines of Cerilia if most of them are the products of natural birth.

I read through the original 2e Rulebook to check on what they said about it. Naturally, it was somewhat ambiguous. The thing is, usually when they talk about Bloodline Strength they're referring to the bloodline score rather than the minor/major/great designation. For 2e purposes this wasn't a big deal because those designators were just general measures for the sake of game flavor, and Bloodline Score (usually called Bloodline Strength except in the table on p. 20) was what mattered the most. Now, with the 3.5 class templates and the (3.5) Bloodline Strength limiting the powers available, it matters a lot...

What the 2e Rulebook had to say about children was that the parents' scores are averaged, the weaker bloodline diluting the stronger one. But it did not say what happened to the designator (major, great, etc.).

OK, I see that on pp. 16-17 of the Book of Regency it gets more specific, and spells out that the weaker designator dominates - I take it this was your basis for the Ch. 2 section I quoted above. Almost word for word...

What confuses this a whole lot is that just about every heir mentioned in Ruins of Empire has the same designator as their regent parent. So does every Avan regent manage to find a Great bloodline to join with? Does every Avan regent use Investiture to make certain they keep the Great bloodline? Sure that's ideal, but none of them die before this can be completed?

Well, I know the Book of Regency is highly regarded as a good authority on the matter, so I doubt the revised chapter 2 will change...but I think it would be good to somehow account for the existence of the remaining Great bloodlines, because it seems that marriage and birth just wouldn't be nearly enough to preserve any of them by this time, unless we assume that there is quite a lot of inbreeding, which has many, many problems of its own, especially in a world as small as Cerilia.

Working within the existing system, then, I think 2 things must be assumed: regents with major bloodlines do in fact raise them to Great lines more often than it might be believed, and Bloodline Investiture is perhaps common for those lucky regents who make it to old age and can voluntarily pass on rulership to their heirs...

IMO, the 2nd option just seems a stretch for human nature. How many kings of Europe "retired" from rulership? How many dictators just step down? It seems to me that as a general rule of human nature, the greater the power a person wields, the harder it is to relinquish it voluntarily. And a blooded regent, whose power is intrinsic and literally a birthright would, I think, have a REALLY hard time letting it go unless he's on his deathbed...

kgauck
03-04-2004, 08:00 PM
----- Original Message -----

From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 11:46 AM





> We are talking about 2000 years of breeding here, and inbreeding

> would be taking a very serious toll by this time among the Great

> bloodlines of Cerilia if most of them are the products of natural birth.



I reject the idea that we should introduce inbreeding into the system. I`d

rather assume a certain amount of inbreeding and not bother with genetic

defects.



> IMO, the 2nd option just seems a stretch for human nature. How

> many kings of Europe "retired" from rulership? How

> many dictators just step down? It seems to me that as a general

> rule of human nature, the greater the power a person wields, the

> harder it is to relinquish it voluntarily.



This is just a matter of incentives. One could contruct a culture in which

the incentives are to move out of the center of power into a possition of

great respect and limited power, be it a senate, a council, a gerusia, or

what have you. When there is some place else to go besides total

irrelevancy, leaders are more likely to pass on power to approved

successors.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

RaspK_FOG
03-05-2004, 02:45 AM
Childís Bloodline Strength = Stronger parentís (minor, major, great, true). If the parentsí strengths are more than 1 step removed (ex., great and minor), the childís strength is one level below the stronger parentís strength. So a great and a minor bloodline joined would produce a child with a major bloodline. A True bloodline joined with anything less than a great bloodline would produce a great bloodline.

You have a good idea (and a reasonable one), but allow me to point out that this would have allowed for far less dwingling bloodlines: you put a lower cap, but what about a higher cap?

I generally suggest that you work like this: 1 step away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s (unchanged)
2 steps away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s -1
3 steps away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s -2
4 steps away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s -3
or like this:
Child&#39;s Bloodline Strength = (Stronger Bloodline + Weaker Bloodline)/2

Osprey
03-05-2004, 07:40 AM
You have a good idea (and a reasonable one), but allow me to point out that this would have allowed for far less dwingling bloodlines: you put a lower cap, but what about a higher cap?

I generally suggest that you work like this:
1 step away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s (unchanged)
2 steps away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s -1
3 steps away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s -2
4 steps away --&#62; Stronger parent&#39;s -3
or like this:
Child&#39;s Bloodline Strength = (Stronger Bloodline + Weaker Bloodline)/2


A good suggestion, though I like the second concept best (assuming we&#39;re rounding up). Consider it amended. :)

Osprey
03-05-2004, 07:44 AM
This is just a matter of incentives. One could contruct a culture in which
the incentives are to move out of the center of power into a possition of
great respect and limited power, be it a senate, a council, a gerusia, or
what have you. When there is some place else to go besides total
irrelevancy, leaders are more likely to pass on power to approved
successors.


Interesting...I hadn&#39;t really considered that possibility. Do you perhaps have some specific ideas as to what form such a thing would take in Cerilia? Or more likely, in different cultures within Cerilia? What might be some existing institutions, positions, etc. in Anuire? Or in Rjuven (knowing this is one of your areas of particular interest)? I&#39;m curious.

kgauck
03-05-2004, 11:50 AM
----- Original Message -----

From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 1:44 AM





> Interesting...I hadn`t really considered that possibility. Do you

> perhaps have some specific ideas as to what form such a thing

> would take in Cerilia?



If one was inclined to devise such institutions, based on both ancient and

modern analogs (there are few in the medieval era) they would involve great

prestige, limited power, and the presence of a satisfactory successor. I

would imagine in Cerilia this would involve a title such as elder duke,

ducal father, geriarch, or something along those lines. The figure would

retain a county (would become a province ruler under his successor) in order

to maintain an independent income. They would stick around in an advisory

capacity as a member of the royal council along with the normal stewards,

chancellors, and chamberlain types. They would only do such a thing when

they were satisfied that their successor wasn`t at risk of being a screw-up.



The career trajectory of many a ruler might go from being heir, to being

heir-lieutentant (in which you are both heir and lieutenant), to being

ruler, then back to being a lieutenant.



I don`t think the Vos go for this at all.

The Rjurik may not practice it much, since they consider death by old age to

a a straw death and less honorable than death in battle (depending on just

how viking you see them). The PS of Halskapa certainly seems to make use of

a planned succession from Berving to the PC by just such a method. The

Stjordvik PS also had Varri abdicating in favor of the PC`s, but they made

Varri out to be unfit. The Rjurik may use this practice if the older

warriors still arm for battle against the realm`s foes.

I think this practice is most common among the Brecht, Anuireans, and

perhaps most common among the Basarji, for whom it is the most reasonable

form of succession.



Even if a third of realms are transfered this way, you might only find four

or five living elder-dukes in Anuire at any given time. I recall Ilien was

transfered this way, for one.



Its also suitable for PC to PC transfer. We don`t have to kill off that

favorite 16th level character in his sixties just to switch over to that

12th level character in his 30`s. We can just "retire" him to an elder

possition of respect, complete with title, heraldric mark (perhaps a silver

border to one`s coat of arms designates that noble estate of the elder who

has passed on his rulership to another), income, allow him to be a

lieutenant for realm actions, and pull him out of retirement once in a while

for the most serious threats to the realm -- old geriarch Ambrose the wise

girds on his sword once more as the armies of the realm face the Gorgon`s

minions. Perhaps there is a chance for old Ambrose to die in battle after

all.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

geeman
03-05-2004, 12:50 PM
At 05:31 AM 3/5/2004 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:



>The career trajectory of many a ruler might go from being heir, to being

>heir-lieutentant (in which you are both heir and lieutenant), to being

>ruler, then back to being a lieutenant.



Rather than returning to a LT status upon retirement I think it more likely

that such characters should become advisors, detached from the actual

maintenance of the domain. Imagine, for example, the role occupied by Vito

Corleone in The Godfather after his son Michael takes over. "Who is a

better consigliere than my father?" Michael asks, and even though members

of the organization turn to Vito for leadership he takes pains to express

that he is not the person to talk to regarding the actual administration of

the family. LT status might be too close to the actual administration of

the realm to accurately portray the function of "retirement." It would

seem counter productive to have a regent step aside and then be used as an

agent to perform domain level activities. It would confuse the rank and

file as well as appear to be a demotion for the former regent rather than a

transition into a sort of "elder statesman" status. There could be

exceptions, of course, but as a general process it seem better to assume a

less active role for a retired regent.



Unless, that is, one purposefully wanted to create a confused leadership

situation in order to have that conflict the basis of a campaign, a la King

Lear.



Gary

BrennanHawkwood
03-10-2004, 08:21 PM
A couple of questions occured to me while rereading this thread and I was curious what other&#39;s opinions on the answers would be...

Regardless of which system you use to determine what a child&#39;s bloodline strength will be, the parent&#39;s scores are typically averaged to determine the child&#39;s score. I would assume if one is using the scion classes then the bonus to bloodline score provided by them would be counted into the average. What about bonuses to bloodline score derived from more temporary sources such as Sielshegh Gems? The related question would be: When is the score determined? At conception or birth or somewhere in between?

Silly questions perhaps...but ones that my players are likely to come up with when the regents-to-be that a couple of them are playing begin to look into producing heirs. Also ones that may have bearing in general given an environment where marraiges are arranged in the interest of building and maintaining strong bloodlines.

-- Blair

irdeggman
03-10-2004, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by BrennanHawkwood@Mar 10 2004, 03:21 PM
A couple of questions occured to me while rereading this thread and I was curious what other&#39;s opinions on the answers would be...

Regardless of which system you use to determine what a child&#39;s bloodline strength will be, the parent&#39;s scores are typically averaged to determine the child&#39;s score. I would assume if one is using the scion classes then the bonus to bloodline score provided by them would be counted into the average. What about bonuses to bloodline score derived from more temporary sources such as Sielshegh Gems? The related question would be: When is the score determined? At conception or birth or somewhere in between?

Silly questions perhaps...but ones that my players are likely to come up with when the regents-to-be that a couple of them are playing begin to look into producing heirs. Also ones that may have bearing in general given an environment where marraiges are arranged in the interest of building and maintaining strong bloodlines.

-- Blair
A temporary increase is never applied to a permanent application. So a temporary bloodline score increase, like that applied by a S gem would not effect the child.

You would apply the the average of the parents&#39; bloodscores at conceptiion, I would think. Since actions taken by the father that may increase/decrease his blood score would not affect his children. I guess the mother&#39;s actions could affect it, but for simplicity and consistency I wouldn&#39;t go there.

As far as the bonus to bloodscore due to scion class levels - yes they are gained at the time the class is gained and is not treated as a temporary gain.

Ksaturn
06-29-2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by irdeggman@Mar 10 2004, 11:03 PM
You would apply the the average of the parents&#39; bloodscores at conceptiion, I would think. Since actions taken by the father that may increase/decrease his blood score would not affect his children. I guess the mother&#39;s actions could affect it, but for simplicity and consistency I wouldn&#39;t go there.

I tend to dissagree on this... I belive anything acieved (insofar as actual score) Should be counted that occours before the birth of the heir. Mother OR Father. However after conception any additioinal power gain must be transferred via investiture. This is my opinion, as a newbie to birthright setting.

I believe Retiring Regent Characters into positions as advisiors is a good idea... It allows complete investiture without nessisarilly killing or dehabilitating an old fav. Though other setups are certainly possible.

As far as bloodline dilution... erm... I prefer... nm...

irdeggman
06-29-2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Ksaturn+Jun 29 2004, 07:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ksaturn @ Jun 29 2004, 07:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-irdeggman@Mar 10 2004, 11:03 PM
You would apply the the average of the parents&#39; bloodscores at conceptiion, I would think. Since actions taken by the father that may increase/decrease his blood score would not affect his children. I guess the mother&#39;s actions could affect it, but for simplicity and consistency I wouldn&#39;t go there.

I tend to dissagree on this... I belive anything acieved (insofar as actual score) Should be counted that occours before the birth of the heir. Mother OR Father. However after conception any additioinal power gain must be transferred via investiture. This is my opinion, as a newbie to birthright setting.

I believe Retiring Regent Characters into positions as advisiors is a good idea... It allows complete investiture without nessisarilly killing or dehabilitating an old fav. Though other setups are certainly possible.

As far as bloodline dilution... erm... I prefer... nm... [/b][/quote]
A good place to look for the basis for dilution of bloodlines is the Book of Regency - a &#39;free&#39; 2nd ed BR download from WotC.

First Horseman
06-29-2004, 07:34 PM
I think this Bloodline Birth System is is almost no different from what is explained in the revison for Chapther 2, yet it but I like the idea of the varrient of the 1d6 roll is a great idea, I think it perfectly sutable that a child&#39;s bloodline can sometime be stronger than thier parents, or much weaker.

However it seems that that due to the rules Bloodline Deveation, Inbreeding will be the only insurance of the survial of the bloodlines( besides investure). Sure if two nobles get togetter and have children, thier offsprings will only have only have half that bloodline scores, as well they have to rule well for a long time for any type of increase. This variance gives small blancing chance that the Bloodline could get stronger over time. But then again it a small chance.

Arius Vistoon
06-30-2004, 01:22 AM
in my campaign,
bloodline strenght is numeric so, the child&#39;s bloodline strenght is very easy too calculate : is half of the average of the parent&#39;s bloodline strenght
And more, feat as "great heritage" or like be increase this score...
Birth is the most param of the score, so the strenght with generation go to decrease.

Don E
07-08-2004, 06:21 AM
IMC I intend to use a system where the first born child will use the average score of his parents. Any later children will have their score reduced by 1d6 relative to the previous child. My intention is to make the first born child more attractive both relative to a marriage situation, and as an incentive to try keep their first children alive to prevent the bloodlines being diluted too much. I see this as one of the reasons why many bloodlines have gone alomost to extinction in Anuire now, as too many blooded first and second born children are killed long before able to produce any offspring and pass on their higher bloodline.

tcharazazel
07-08-2004, 06:57 AM
Well, normally all first born kids will have lower bloodline scores than later kids, as both parents would have the time to raise their bloodlines before the next child... So really the last kid will always be the best candidate in terms of rulership from bloodline strength.

Honestly, this sorta puts an interesting change on the whole general idea of having the first born being the most important... Rather cool change that way, heheh. So the first borns maybe more like our last borns, ie spoiled and doted upon, while the last borns are raised to rule and take over the family business :)

Though, if we want to keep the first borns as being the most important kids then lowering the subsequent kids bloodlines by 1d6 would probably work... just one question then, why is it lower when the parents bloodlines are higher? It suggests that the parents bloodlines go down when they have kids, and that would really put a stopper on blooded characters having kids heheh. Dropping their bloodline by even 1d4 each time they decide to have a kid, what if they have twins... then 2d4 ouch... a definate way to show why there is still just 1% blooded people in the BR world.

First Horseman
07-08-2004, 06:31 PM
Hey Tcharazazel

I kind of get your drift on the parents weekening of thier bloodlines after they have children. It kind of make you wonder what happens when all the major and minor bloodlines become extinct. I don&#39;t think that the Birthright campaign was ment to go that far., say a mabye 500 years down the road to what it is now (551 MR). The great heritage template is a great way to give a boost to a scions blooline. But since all it takes is a flashy explination in one&#39;s charater background to get the template. It may possibly take the rarity of the template away.

I guess I&#39;m a big fan of rolling the bloodlines. Even if the scion is a child of another scion. Mabye if the d20 Atlas team wrote which Families who are more likely have the great heritage template so the template would seem more relevent.And possibly balence the campaing a little more.

Again I love that 1d6 role to see if the scion has a little bit more of a bloodline score or a little less.

First Horseman
07-08-2004, 06:34 PM
Hey Tcharazazel

I kind of get your drift on the parents weekening of thier bloodlines after they have children. It kind of make you wonder what happens when all the major and minor bloodlines become extinct. I don&#39;t think that the Birthright campaign was ment to go that far., say a mabye 500 years down the road to what it is now (551 MR). The great heritage template is a great way to give a boost to a scions blooline. But since all it takes is a flashy explination in one&#39;s charater background to get the template. It may possibly take the rarity of the template away.

I guess I&#39;m a big fan of rolling the bloodlines. Even if the scion is a child of another scion. Mabye if the d20 Atlas team wrote which Families who are more likely have the great heritage template so the template would seem more relevent.And possibly balence the campaing a little more.

Again I love that 1d6 roll to see if the scion has a little bit more of a bloodline score or a little less.

tcharazazel
07-09-2004, 12:13 AM
Again I love that 1d6 roll to see if the scion has a little bit more of a bloodline score or a little less.

Don said the 1d6 was an automatic subtraction thus is would always be less, which was my point, that it would mean the parents would likely be loosing some of their bloodline strength to reflect this loss in the childs bloodline.

If you mean that the 1d6 now is like 1-3 bloodline stays the same, 4 bloodline goes down 1, 5 bloodline goes down 2, and 6 bloodline goes down 3. Or some such idea like that, then it would make sense for the parents to make that roll really, and not the kid.


If you want to keep rolling the bloodlines for the kids then just set up an error margin for the average of the parents bloodlines maybe like 60% chance to have the parents average score, 35% to be less and 5% to be higher.

If lower then roll 1d6 and subtract it from the average if higher roll 1d6 and add it to the average.

If you prefer to have more chance involded then:

60% average

10% 1d4 lower

10% 1d6 lower

5% 1d8 lower

5% 1d6 higher


If you prefer to have it more balanced between the lowering and raising the bloodline, then just split it 20% and 20% and have it be 10% 1d4 higher/lower and 10% 1d6 higher/lower. Heh, just depends on how nice you want to be to your PCs.


Well, for me it took the creation of an Empire to get the great herritage template so really it depends on how rare the DM wants to make it. Just doing one flashy thing shouldnt get you the template, rather needing to do some monumentus things or flashy things over a long period of time period of time. Thus, its not so easy to get it :)

Ksaturn
07-09-2004, 12:43 PM
Personally i suprised this hasent come up but... Historically not all cultures had the same limitations on marridge. i.e. in some cultures the rulers & bigshots could have 2 or even 50 wives/concubines. Whiles this goes agaist the grain for say... anuire, it works very well for wild cultures or desert cultures. one good working idea i saw in a book involved the emporer having 0-1 &#39;wife&#39; or &#39;emperess&#39; and many concubines(as wife but no political power or meaning). in BR terms it is easy to see how this stem an entire network of minor/tainted bloodlines while still maintaining the prestige of the &#39;True Heir&#39;... also less infighting(or perhaps a great deal more) after death of the ruler as many still claim some vestige of the true line.

This meshes VERY poorly with weaking bloodline cuase more children.

As for the Great heritage i agree with Tcharazazel. Not nessisarily the creation of an empire but a major part in such an act in any case. (the original BLs of the duchies / the lietenants of Michael Roloea / thier direct desendants / Ect.)

An alternative to Don Es idea is to have only one out of a group of siblings attain the GH template at a time(i.e. the Heir has the template but if he dies it passes to his next youngest brother)

irdeggman
07-09-2004, 12:56 PM
Tcharazazel pretty much got the gist of how the great heritage template works. But note that it can only be given (or taken away) by the DM. Players do not have the option of claiming it on their own. Note also that it can be &#39;lost&#39;, like Diem is awful close to losing his (could already have if the DM wants to play it that way) due to the &#39;recent&#39; losses in his lands - Moedore being the most recent one.

As far as taking part in forming an empire resulting in gaining the great heritage template that is exactly why the direct decendents of the thr original duchies have it, to reflect their part in the history of Anuire.