Animals with bloodlines

[graham anderson]

In my games there are horse bloodlines with divine bloodlines just like the blood hounds from the blood spawn book and this is where highly intelligent elven horses come from blooded horses.

What do other people think of this.

Has anyone ever posted on this subject before.

[Green Knight]

It`s an excellent idea. In a campaign I ran a while back, all paladins`

mounts were descendant from Haelyn`s horse at Deismaar. The players were

actually quite pleased with that, as it explained the mount`s special

powers.



-----Original Message-----

From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of graham anderson

Sent: 1. mars 2004 16:53

To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

Subject: Animals with bloodlines [2#2312]



This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

You can view the entire thread at:

http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2312



graham anderson wrote:

In my games there are horse bloodlines with divine bloodlines just

like the blood hounds from the blood spawn book and this is where highly

intelligent elven horses come from blooded horses.What do other people

think of this.Has anyone ever posted on this subject before.



************************************************** **********************

****



Birthright-l Archives:

http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html

[Birthright-L]

----- Original Message -----

From: "graham anderson" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>

Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:53 AM

Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] Animals with bloodlines [2#2312]





> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2312

>

> graham anderson wrote:

> In my games there are horse bloodlines with divine bloodlines just like

the blood hounds from the blood spawn book and this is where highly

intelligent elven horses come from blooded horses.What do other people

think of this.Has anyone ever posted on this subject before.

>



I don`t think I`d make Elf ponies blooded, for that is if you recall the

blood of gods, and they don`t really have an interest--they`d probably be

animals originally from the Shadow-World, or just really unique animal

breeds. There are plenty of examples in the books of blooded animals (Hydra,

The Boar, etc)

[irdeggman]

We did the same thing as far as blooded horses. But we did not tie them into elven horses. IMO that is going a little too far in the line. There really should be no reason that elven horses should be descended from horses with &#39;divine blood&#39; in them, unless they are mostly of Azrai descent - which is probably not a good thing for a mount, IMO.

Elven horses in Cerilia have always bothered me. This seemed to be just some carry over from other settings. IMO it is rather difficult to have any large quantity of horses in the thick forests that Cerilian elves call home. Horses are mostly plains animals and plains are something that elves would perceive as the result of human defilement of the &#39;living&#39; forests of Cerilia.

[Birthright-L]

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>

Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 11:16 AM

Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Animals with bloodlines [2#2312]





> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2312

>

> irdeggman wrote:

> We did the same thing as far as blooded horses. But we did not tie them

into elven horses. IMO that is going a little too far in the line. There

really should be no reason that elven horses should be descended from horses

with `divine blood` in them, unless they are mostly of Azrai descent - which

is probably not a good thing for a mount, IMO.

>

> Elven horses in Cerilia have always bothered me. This seemed to be just

some carry over from other settings. IMO it is rather difficult to have any

large quantity of horses in the thick forests that Cerilian elves call home.

Horses are mostly plains animals and plains are something that elves would

perceive as the result of human defilement of the `living` forests of

Cerilia.

>





Well Elves are not /only/ Forests creatures in Cerilia--they just live there

now right? They once rules the entire continent--including deserts,

mountains etc.



(I for one have a Fantasy setting where they use Deer--big deer but still..)

[geeman]

At 06:16 PM 3/1/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



>Elven horses in Cerilia have always bothered me. This seemed to be just

>some carry over from other settings. IMO it is rather difficult to have

>any large quantity of horses in the thick forests that Cerilian elves call

>home. Horses are mostly plains animals and plains are something that

>elves would perceive as the result of human defilement of the `living`

>forests of Cerilia.



In BR elven horses live in trees. They swing from branch to branch eating

pinecones and nesting in the upper branches away from predators like sloths

and emus.



Seriously, though, unless one is going to suppose that horses didn`t exist

on the continent and were imported at the same time the human tribes

migrated to Cerilia, when elves ruled more of the continent they probably

would have had normal access to horses. They would, in fact, be the race

most likely to use them since dwarves, gnolls and orogs aren`t generally

interested--except maybe for their use as food--and goblins have their own

mounts.



Now that elves have retreated to forested provinces they should probably

still have horses, but their numbers should be smaller than amongst most

some human cultures (particularly Anuireans.) Their equines might be more

along the lines of unicorns, that is to say they might be a more sylvan

breed that has as much in common with fantasy mounts--as far as terrain

lived in goes--as they do with real world ones. They live primarily in the

glens and meadows of elven lands where there is some grazing, but in

general their need for food might be in some ways adapted to a more wooded

terrain or simply "magically reduced" by elven husbandry to something that

would be more sustainable in forested provinces using the ubiquitous "elven

magic" that accounts for things like elven metallurgy.



Gary

[kgauck]

irdeggman, this is when it is sometimes fruitfull to put aside the strict

real world, even while you are able to maintain all of its logic. For

example, there are many species in the real world that are very similar to

horses, including zebra, raindeer, moose, and probabaly most useful in our

purpose here, deer. Only horses were domesticated because only horses have

a complete assortment of the neccesary traits.



can`t be a finicky eater

quick growth rate -- possibly not a problem for elves

domestication must not distrupt courtship -- rules out the vicuña (a

camel spieces of South America)

docile disposition -- rules out the African buffalo, and four of the six

equid species, inlcuding the onager, and three kinds of zebras

must not panic -- this rules out most deer and antelope, with the

notable exception of reindeer

requires a social structure



BR has wolves as mounts for goblins, so either the goblins accept their

nasty disposition as adults or they have a less ferocious variety. In

general, the disqualifying factor for deer as a domesticated mount is its

tendency to panic. If one simply imagines a Cerilian species of deer that

stands its ground and defends itself in a herd, you have a possible mount.

Alternatly, you could rule that only elves facility with the deer, either as

riders or even just as trainers, overcome the natural tendency to panic,

thereby absolutly ruling out non-elves from using or domesticating the

mounts. Also, one might take their light build into account, arguing that

heavier humans and the dense dwarves are too much of a burden for deer to

carry on their backs. There are three dozen species of deer, so its much

easier to imagine a variety that performs whatever purposes you need.



Or, you could imagine a variety of horse that lives very much like a deer, a

forest variety, occupying the same ecological niche as deer (what`s one more

species) but otherwise a horse. This one could even have the skittishness

of deer, making human domestication nearly impossible, if one wanted it to

be so.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[graham anderson]

There are a large number of horse species around the world just look at all the pony&#39;s etc. I have no problem with a slightly smaller than normal forest breed of horse which is generaly how the elven horses are described. These horses may once have been more like human horses but have changed since the elves retreated to the forests.

The goblins don&#39;t just ride wolves the bigger verieties ride horses as well albeit from a weaker lineage. I always thought of the wolves the goblins ride as more like dogs, domesticated large dogs admitadly that have been bred for use as mounts.

[Green Knight]

In the same campaign that had paladin`s mounts being descendant from

Haelyn`s steed, the goblins rode worgs. These worgs were descendant from

normal wolves that got imbued with Azrai`s power at Deismaar.



That explained their size, malevolence (as opposed to normal wolves that

were just normal animals), and their intelligence.



-----Original Message-----

From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of graham anderson

Sent: 1. mars 2004 20:01

To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

Subject: Re: Animals with bloodlines [2#2312]



This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

You can view the entire thread at:

http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2312



graham anderson wrote:

There are a large number of horse species around the world just look

at all the pony`s etc. I have no problem with a slightly smaller than

normal forest breed of horse which is generaly how the elven horses are

described. These horses may once have been more like human horses but

have changed since the elves retreated to the forests.



The goblins don`t just ride wolves the bigger verieties ride horses as

well albeit from a weaker lineage. I always thought of the wolves the

goblins ride as more like dogs, domesticated large dogs admitadly that

have been bred for use as mounts.



************************************************** **********************

****



Birthright-l Archives:

http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html

[Lee]

In a message dated 3/1/04 11:04:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:



<< graham anderson wrote:

In my games there are horse bloodlines with divine bloodlines just like

the blood hounds from the blood spawn book and this is where highly intelligent

elven horses come from blooded horses.What do other people think of this.Has

anyone ever posted on this subject before. >>



Very briefly IMC, a dog had blood powers, as it critted on a blooded ogre

during a combat. The PCs were really impressed with the light show before

jealousy set in. The pooch unfortunately was killed (no bloodtheft) in the next

game-session.



Lee.

[ConjurerDragon]

Sidhain schrieb:



>----- Original Message -----

>From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

>To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>

>Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 11:16 AM

>Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Animals with bloodlines [2#2312]

>

>

>>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

>> You can view the entire thread at:

>> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2312

>>

>>

>>

>Well Elves are not /only/ Forests creatures in Cerilia--they just live there

>now right? They once rules the entire continent--including deserts,

>mountains etc.

>

They do not only live in dense forests and once rule most of the

continent, but most of the continent was in former times covered by

dense forests.



There are several passages that indicate that all the still existing

sidhelien forests were once one, which means there were pretty few

plains and the idea of the Tribes bringing horses with them from Aduria

(from where the gnolls once came, too) would make another parrallel

between the american indians and the sidhelien.

bye

Michael



>(I for one have a Fantasy setting where they use Deer--big deer but still..)

>

[irdeggman]

Yup, the elves lived in the forest which extended to cover almost all of Anuire prior to the humans&#39; incursion. Even in the other lands (specifically Vosgaard) the elves still live in forests.

The elves left the mountains to the dwarves, which was why their war stopped. The dwarves had no interest in stripping the forests, the thing of most concern to the elves.

My point about elven horses was how do they use them? There is just not enough room to maneuver a horse through dense forests, which are after all is the elves favored terrain - regardless of what people come up with for how they lived previously. So the fact that there are elven cavalry, as units, is the specific thing that has always bothered me. An occasional horse is no big deal, but in the &#39;old forests&#39; there is insufficient room to have plains of sufficient space to support them. The descriptions of the elven lands in the PS or the Ruins of Empire - pretty much read very similarly, terrain wise.

[graham anderson]

Forests are usually fairly easy to move about in they are generally not too restrictive.
Indeed some of the earliest horse breads lived in forests and jungles I do not know if any horse breads currently live in the forests exclusively but there is no reason they can&#39;t. The fact that horses can exist in a forest is very different from there usefulness in battle in a forest of which I am dubious. Elves are creatures that resist change due to their nature and they may maintain units that have little use even this long after daesmar. The horse’s noble nature may also appeal to elves.

[Osprey]

If you&#39;ve ever visited a temperate old growth forest, which should be fairly similar to the elven domains, you&#39;d realize that there is quite a bit of space under those gigantic trees and their huge canopies - dense undergrowth is more typical of young forests with a less complete overhead canopy from the trees.

Of course, old growth forests also tend to have really spongy forest floors built from thousands of years of decaying plant matter, with little ups and downs from branches and trunks in various states of decay. Great to sleep on, bad for a galloping horse. :) So space isn&#39;t the issue so much as footing in our real-world equivalent of an elven forest (or the closest thing we have).

[Green Knight]

Or maybe elven steeds are as fey as their sidhe kin? As beings of faerie

dust and starlight, who are we to speak of them as mere horses!

Immortal, graceful and intelligent, so utterly unlike the ponderous

bests of the humans...



In a world where immortal fey guard the forests, it doesn’t require much

imagination to come up with the idea that maybe elven steeds, which

superficially similar to horse, are as different from them as elves are

from humans.



Just so we don`t go completely overboard with scientific facts about

horses and their habitats ;-)



Cheers

Bjørn



-----Original Message-----

From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Osprey

Sent: 1. mars 2004 23:48

To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

Subject: Re: Animals with bloodlines [2#2312]



This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

You can view the entire thread at:

http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2312



Osprey wrote:

If you`ve ever visited a temperate old growth forest, which should be

fairly similar to the elven domains, you`d realize that there is quite a

bit of space under those gigantic trees and their huge canopies - dense

undergrowth is more typical of young forests with a less complete

overhead canopy from the trees.



Of course, old growth forests also tend to have really spongy forest

floors built from thousands of years of decaying plant matter, with

little ups and downs from branches and trunks in various states of

decay. Great to sleep on, bad for a galloping horse. :) So space

isn`t the issue so much as footing in our real-world equivalent of an

elven forest (or the closest thing we have).



************************************************** **********************

****



Birthright-l Archives:

http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, Osprey got nearer to the nail with his hammer than any other; any great, old, temperate forest is characterised by large-trunked trees that form a dense canopy overhead and a spacious undergrowth - I am not sure of the validity of my choice of words; to make sure you get what I mean, trees may be as far between from 2 meters minimum, approximately 6&#39; 6", to 10 meters in the largest of forests, approximately 32&#39; 9"&#33;

A horse can generally pass easilly through the median space of most such forests, which is almost 4 meters, approximately 13&#39;. However, leaves, roots, and other loose material generally makes movement difficult, and decreases any creature&#39;s speed dramatically, since it takes a lot of effort to get a decent footing; and horses need a good footing, or risk injuring their knees, which can be critical to a horse.

In any case, one could say that the elves have "domesticated" a more wild kind of horse with a slighter build which would suit a forest better (Balance, Jump, and Tumble bonuses, with free use of Tumble as an evasive-like maneouver instead of tumbling in the actual sense, no penalties for moving through forests, etc.), but which would not accept a non-elven-blooded rider (half-elves should be able to ride such a horse, since they have the ability Elven Blood).

[Mark_Aurel]

This might be a good time to mention that there is an Elven Horse entry in the BRCS playtest - p. 164.

Anyway, I&#39;d also like to back up Osprey here - he definitely paints a correct picture of ancient forests as compared to younger ones. I think Elven forests for the most part would fall in that category - not having much in the way of undergrowth, but rather tall, ancient trees.

[kgauck]

A while back I posted on horses with feats, and an elven mount with Woodland

Stride would be a natural.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Osprey
Of course, old growth forests also tend to have really spongy forest floors built from thousands of years of decaying plant matter, with little ups and downs from branches and trunks in various states of decay. Great to sleep on, bad for a galloping horse. So space isn&#39;t the issue so much as footing in our real-world equivalent of an elven forest (or the closest thing we have).
Never underestimate adaption&#33; An elven breeding would be thousands of years old. Horses could be anything meanwhile ;)

No seriously, some ponies who live in mountains can climb nearly as good as goats. So some extra long eyelashes, natural short mane and long hair at the horse’s pasterns (to protect them from branches) and tadaaa, you have your woodland horse...

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Irdeggman
Yup, the elves lived in the forest which extended to cover almost all of Anuire prior to the humans&#39; incursion. Even in the other lands (specifically Vosgaard) the elves still live in forests.

The elves left the mountains to the dwarves, which was why their war stopped. The dwarves had no interest in stripping the forests, the thing of most concern to the elves.

My point about elven horses was how do they use them? There is just not enough room to maneuver a horse through dense forests, which are after all is the elves favored terrain - regardless of what people come up with for how they lived previously. So the fact that there are elven cavalry, as units, is the specific thing that has always bothered me. An occasional horse is no big deal, but in the &#39;old forests&#39; there is insufficient room to have plains of sufficient space to support them. The descriptions of the elven lands in the PS or the Ruins of Empire - pretty much read very similarly, terrain wise.

Why can’t the elven horses be as small as large ponies? Look at the real world: There are over 200 horse races around, as large as a Shire (6 ft. tall to the shoulder) or as small as a Falballa or Shetty (about 2 ft. tall to the shoulder). Generally there are several possibilities why a horse can reduce its size, breeding only the smallest of their race is one “unnatural” possibility. Apart from that a creature reduces it’s size “naturally” if living in mountains, in a forrest or on an island. If I remember right, today are indeed pony races who live in woods (there are even ponies who live in swamps [Dartmoor Ponies for example])&#33; So why not. Naturally an elven horse shouldn’t be taller than 4 ft. and a bit to the shoulder if we suggest that its natural environment is a forrest. A shire horse would be more a typical anuirean “heavy warhorse”.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by kgauck@Mar 1 2004, 07:30 PM
A while back I posted on horses with feats, and an elven mount with Woodland

Stride would be a natural.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com


This is similar to what is portrayed in Noble Steeds, a book from Avalanche Press. In that book a character can send exp back to his mount and level it up. When it levels up it gains certain things, hit points, ability increases, feats. I really reccomend that book for those who want to develop a real detailed process for how to handle mounts and give them differences instead of having the vanilla brand presented in the PHB, etc.

[geeman]

At 12:55 PM 3/2/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



>This is similar to what is portrayed in Noble Steeds, a book from

>Avalanche Press. In that book a character can send exp back to his mount

>and level it up. When it levels up it gains certain things, hit points,

>ability increases, feats.



Interesting. Is the XP "spent" on a mount just like XP earned for a

character? That is, does someone have to spend XP to level up a mount

equal to the XP that mount would need to gain a character level per Table

3-2 of the PHB?



Gary

[Osprey]

You could also treat a steed just like a snetient creature of any sort (i.e., it gains xp on its own seperate from its rider) or like a cohort (1/2 normal xp awards).

Though in all honesty, the 1/2 xp for cohort thing is really irrational...["Hey, you&#39;re not a hero&#33; Stop being as good as your master, you&#39;re making him look bad&#33;"] Come on, 1/2 xp because the cohort isn&#39;t quite as autonomous as the PC? Please&#33;

Anyways, I think it might depend very much on the intelligence/sentience of the steed as to how it would gain xp and what options it wold have for using it.

Ideggman, you wouldn&#39;t be willing to post a sample from this book, would you? [heh, I figured it can&#39;t hurt to ask. B) ]

Osprey

[irdeggman]

Osprey, I&#39;ll see what I can do when I look at my hard copy again.

A character gives some of his exp to his mount. The mount eventually levels up but uses a different exp table than do characters. There is a limit as to how much exp a character can donate at a time, I think it is 10% of what he earns or something along those lines and it must be donated when the character earns his, so a character can&#39;t &#39;save exp&#39; for a one time donation to his mount. It reflects the mount &#39;growing&#39; with the character. Unfortunealty the book was 3.0 and hasn&#39;t been erratas to 3.5, although it pretty much works with 3.5 too.

The book also give a pretty good side bar on how it is impossible for a dog to have a rider.

[ConjurerDragon]

Mark_Aurel schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2312

>

> Mark_Aurel wrote:

> This might be a good time to mention that there is an Elven Horse entry in the BRCS playtest - p. 164.

>

> Anyway, I`d also like to back up Osprey here - he definitely paints a correct picture of ancient forests as compared to younger ones. I think Elven forests for the most part would fall in that category - not having much in the way of undergrowth, but rather tall, ancient trees.

>



Could we just say that ancient elven forest may be any kind of forest?

There is no need that an old forest must look like Canadas Mammoth-tree

dream come true with giant old trees and lots of space between. Maybe

Tuarhievel looks like that but they have a road and a human queen ;-)



Especially the description of the Sielwode contradicts that picture to

the extreme with lots of undergrowth, thorns and whatever that will make

it nearly impenetrable to any non-sidhelien passage. Sounds a lot like

the old Blackwood Forest of Germany to me where you can´t see more than

a few meters if you walk away from the major roads and even the minor

footpathes.

bye

Michael

[geeman]

I just wanted to note that the idea of Cerilian elves riding some of the

larger deer species (elk or moose) raises the possibility of their cavalry

rivaling Anuirean knights (heavy cavalry.) Some deer species comparable to

war horses. Moose can be over 22 hands, compared to Shire breed of heavy

horse which is generally 17-18 hands. Plus the fact that they have antlers

and are designed for a charge attack makes for a pretty impressive

mount. That`s without considering some of the fantasy or extinct species

that could still exist in a D&D setting. Since there are Cerilian mammoth,

for instance, it`s likely that there are still earlier (and larger) species

of deer extant on the continent.



It might seem ridiculous that someone ride a moose--but apparently they

actually have been domesticated moose ridden by various peoples in history

and used for military purposes. Moose have better terrain traversing

ability and more stamina than horse. Plus, horses are spooked by

moose. They bolt when confronted by them. Apparently, the big problem

with domesticating moose is that they are susceptible to both deer and

equine diseases and parasites, and have some dietary issues that make them

difficult to keep healthy in captivity, but the nature oriented, magical

elves could easily deal with that.



Wielding a spear or lance to the side of a creature with a big rack,

however, would be pretty difficult....



Gary

[Birthright-L]

> Wielding a spear or lance to the side of a creature with a big rack,

> however, would be pretty difficult....

>





So don`t? Train them to use the Rack as a weapon (covered with iron

"barding" like to protect them) and use a short bow for the rider.

[graham anderson]

Some of the tribal groups in russia actualy use dear as steeds in there semi nomadic travels. They wouldn&#39;t be very practical except for travel though.

A forest tends to be thicker and more overgrown at the bounderys as more sun can reach the plants, one of the main reasons for the lack of growth in old forests is that the sun is unable to reach the ground at the same intensity.

I think that a small horse could fit in quite well in more ways than one especially as meny elves are semi nomadic giving the horses more use than just as mounts in battle.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 8:45 AM





> Though in all honesty, the 1/2 xp for cohort thing is really irrational...

> ["Hey, you`re not a hero&#33; Stop being as good as your

> master, you`re making him look bad&#33;"] Come on, 1/2 xp

> because the cohort isn`t quite as autonomous as the PC? Please&#33;



You have articulated the argument for 1/2 xp well, though from an opposing

POV. I, however, find it persuasive. Ultimatly, its an issue of genre.

Because I see BR as a game utilizing an aristocratic worldview, I am content

with the notion that most NPC`s are nothing more than spear carriers.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/18/S0611800.html



This nicely conveys the notion of the noble as principle actor, as

decision-maker, as the responsible agent, as opposed to his cohorts who

simply do as they are told. This literary convention supports the

imperative of leadership which I expect noble PC`s to embody. It helps

create a sense that they, and only they, lead others to achieve the destiny

that has been set out for them.



It would be nice if they made some reference that they had made this choice

to represent cohorts as spear carriers (see also the treatment of un-named

NPC`s in Robin Laws` Feng Shui RPG) rather than as fully autonomous people.

That way DM`s might chose to include or reject this approach to NPC

experience, but they might have felt that balance issues were at issue.

After all, a cohort, including a mighty beast, is a power deployable by

characters of a certain level, and so starting them at lower power and

limiting their power growth could become a balance issue. I`m guessing at a

possible motive.



I am a bit troubled by the use of standard classes for animals, and don`t

want to see a horse 4/rogue 2/fighter 4 in a campaign. the book irdeggman

mentioned, Noble Steeds, in which the PC spends xp to get powers for their

animal seems to me a better solutuion. I would have to look at the

opportunity costs involved in taking up valuable cohort slots with an animal

vs an NPC cohort, because I don`t want one expenditure to be totally out of

line with the other. I could forsee keeping track of animal xp and spending

to buy abilitys. If the Noble Steeds presumes the animal is not a cohort,

than the player`s expenditure is spot on.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[geeman]

At 01:22 PM 3/2/2004 -0600, Sidhain wrote:



> > Wielding a spear or lance to the side of a creature with a big rack,

> > however, would be pretty difficult....

>

>So don`t? Train them to use the Rack as a weapon (covered with iron

>"barding" like to protect them) and use a short bow for the rider.



Well, one of the important things about using a spear is to have reach,

especially if charging in formation like cavalry does. Plus, it allows one

to focus all that energy into a point, which is better than a blunt

attack. That`s not to say an animal weighing around ton couldn`t do lots

of damage just charging into something, but in general the use of a spear

or lance makes a lot of sense for mounted units that are charging into the

fray. For mounted archers you`d want to go with smaller, lighter mounts

that have more speed, allowing them to "stand off" and fire their weapons

or "hit and run" so as to avoid exposure to enemy attacks.



Gary

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>

Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 12:18 PM





> Maybe Tuarhievel looks like that but they have a road and a

> human queen ;-)



I reject nearly all of the changes to the regional books in the PS as having

occured. As one might see from my ongoing orphan story, I set the situation

up so that it may go that way, but clearly it hasn`t happened. So AFAIC,

Prince Fhileraene still reigns, though visitors to the realm could meet the

[formerly] human Savane Mhoried in court. In this regard I see the regional

sourcebooks as canon, and the PS`s as a collection of adventure seeds.



> There is no need that an old forest must look like Canadas

> Mammoth-tree dream come true with giant old trees and lots

> of space between.



Given Tuarhievel`s location, a Canadian anology probabaly isn`t far off.



> Especially the description of the Sielwode contradicts that picture

> to the extreme with lots of undergrowth, thorns and whatever that

> will make it nearly impenetrable to any non-sidhelien passage.

> Sounds a lot like the old Blackwood Forest of Germany to me.



Wildscape (which I briefly reviews a few weeks ago) gives forests several

qualities, including density and difficulty. Density reflects how far apart

the trees are and how much undergrowth there is. It effects movement, line

of site, can effect cover and skills use too. Assuming an old-growth elven

forest, the determining factor will be the shape of a full grown tree and

the canopy that forms. If the canopy is dense, undergrowth is reduced. The

other quality is difficulty which reflects the likelihood of taking damage

because of falls, thorns, or poisons in the woods. For myself, I generally

only apply difficulty of someone moves faster than the density proscribes,

or is inable to see (darkness, blindness, &c). But clearly one could apply

these to various woods. As I think I mentioned, there are also advanced

forest traits mentioned, like gloom, oppression, and sentience, which might

be employed as well for old, elven forests.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[irdeggman]

Here is the summary from Noble Steeds as requested.

A lot of info is OGL.

The steed is not a cohort. It is a mount, that could be perceived as similar to a paladin’s special mount. A character can give up to 10% of the exp he receives to each of his mounts. If he has 3 mounts he can give each one 10%. This donation must be done at the time that the character is awarded exp points. A paladin’s special mount gains a bonus of 1 point exp for every 2 that the paladin gives it.

Building a steed. There are 4 steps: choose a classification, choose a breed, choose a class and select feats.

Classification. These are Light Horse, Heavy Horse, Pony, Elephant, Camel, or one of the legendary ones (Pegasus, Gryphon, etc.) Each classification has attributes, starting ability scores, movement, special qualities, skills and feats.

Breed. Choose a breed within the classification. For example under Light Horse there are 3 breeds, Arabian, Barb and Spanish Andalusian. Each breed has ability modifiers to the classification.

Class. There are 3 classes: Courser (Race Horse), Destrier (Warhorse) and Palfrey (Trick Horse). Each class has requirements (ability scores) that must be met. They also have class features that are gained by level.

Feats. Feats include things like:

Fearless – the steed is not spooked by loud noises, fire, the smell of blood or other battle hazards. It suffers no penalties to it actions on a battlefield for unusual circumstances of this nature. Additionally, it is immune to Fear effects.

Heavy Burden – the steed can carry half again its normal burden without penalty.

Many, many other feats are listed.

Steed levels go at 2nd 200 xp, 3rd 400 xp, 4th 1200 xp, etc. They gain ability increases at various levels +4 at 1st, +1 at 4th and 8th. They gain bonus hit points at levels +4 at 1st, +4 at 3rd, +8 at 5th, etc. There are only 10 levels in a steed class.

Each class also has its own BAB and saving throw progressions plus class features like Increased movement at 1st level for a Courser, Increased Movement II at 4th level, and other similar type abilities.

Each classification gains level based feats at different levels, not the standard every 3rd level.



All in all a very, very good and detailed book.

Here’s the link to their write up. It is very reasonably priced too. If you order a copy, tell them I sent you, since most of the plant staff is in my gaming group.

http://www.avalanchepress.com/gameNobleSteeds.php

Hope this is useful. I also have a copy of their Celtic Age, which is another very good book, although not as good as Noble Steeds, IMO.

[Michael Romes]

Originally posted by geeman@Mar 2 2004, 08:00 PM
I just wanted to note that the idea of Cerilian elves riding some of the

larger deer species (elk or moose) raises the possibility of their cavalry

rivaling Anuirean knights (heavy cavalry.) Some deer species comparable to

war horses. Moose can be over 22 hands, compared to Shire breed of heavy

horse which is generally 17-18 hands. Plus the fact that they have antlers
...


geemans post, together with some other posts who see the elven mounts as
creatures of the forest and not comparble to the mounts of humans, brought a
side to that picture that I saw :P
http://home.t-online.de/home/Archmage/Bilder/hunt.jpg