HackRight

[Elton Robb]

Here's something I found on Wizards Chat, and KenzerCo's catalog. I'm very angry now.
=================================
I think Kenzer & Co. got the license but is using it to expand their Hackmaster line. You guessed it, it's called Hackright.

I swear (but not profanely), what was thought to be a parody that was based on a fictional RPG from their long-running comic book ("Knights of the Dinner Table") is seriously becoming a legitimate game product.
===============================================
From K&C catalogue

HackRight K&C2123 $34.99 WRITING

[teloft]

what are you saying?

[Fearless_Leader]

Originally posted by teloft@Feb 7 2004, 08:04 AM
what are you saying?
This has been unfolding for almost a year now I think, altough I havn't been keeping track of it closely. KenzerCo seems to be producing Hackmaster versions of several of the old TSR campaign worlds, including Birthright. Supposedly, the KenzerCo version of Birthright, "Hackright," comes out at some point this year.

Not having played Hackmaster I can't make any judgement on the system, but I can say that I'm not entirely happy about it. Even if WotC started putting out BR again, I wouldn't be entirely happy unless all the old authors were working on it. In my mind, BR has creatively expanded a great deal since its cancellation largely because its been in the hands of the fans. For example, a great deal of about Anuirean society has been worked out by a number of fans, including myself.
As well, now that this is happening, I have to seriously question the future of the whole BRCS and d20 Atlas project. Will WotC allow us to continue? Will any product we produce no longer be "official" but simply be fan produced fiction (and thus no longer allowing us the use of copy-righted material)? Will a seperate and completely new BR community growing up around the Hackmaster game eventually drain this one and eventually kill it?

[geeman]

At 09:04 PM 2/7/2004 +0100, Fearless_Leader wrote:



>As well, now that this is happening, I have to seriously question the

>future of the whole BRCS and d20 Atlas project. Will WotC allow us to

>continue? Will any product we produce no longer be "official"

>but simply be fan produced fiction (and thus no longer allowing us the use

>of copy-righted material)? Will a seperate and completely new BR

>community growing up around the Hackmaster game eventually drain this one

>and eventually kill it?



While I sympathize with the sentiment and concerns expressed... hasn`t this

always been the case? I mean, WotC could step in any time and say they

were going to reissue the line, rerelease it as D20, or simply say they

felt it was harming their overall product line for BR to be a fan produced,

free product and shut down the efforts of the folks putting together the

conversion or otherwise creating fan produced materials. Such a thing

might be a bit more proximate with Hackmaster BR materials, but I don`t

really think so really since it is a different set of rules, and the tide

of this kind of thing would appear to be against such a move by the WotC

execs. That is, fan produced material is such a mainstay of gaming (and a

lot of entertainment industry) that an attempt to return to the days of

"copyright protectionism" would be very difficult to justify--let alone

enact. It`d make the current round of record companies suing individual

Internet users for downloading MP3`s look like a cake walk.



In the long run, if the Hackmaster version of things becomes more popular

then that really only justifies the decision to go with an open source

philosophy for the material in the first place. I don`t think we should

worry overmuch about the actual game mechanics applied to the setting

itself, since individuals can (and have) already applied a wide variety of

rules to the setting in the BR community. It seems unlikely that such a

trend will stop because of yet another set of rules being used. Hackmaster

stuff may become dominant (though, I somehow doubt it) but on the whole the

BR community itself doesn`t really suffer for that.



Gary

[Fearless_Leader]

Originally posted by geeman@Feb 7 2004, 01:20 PM
Hackmaster stuff may become dominant (though, I somehow doubt it) but on the whole the BR community itself doesn`t really suffer for that.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

While I certainly agree with most of your points, this move nevertheless makes me very nervous. Perhaps I'm being overly cynical, but it would truly not surprise me if WotC came in and reversed themselves on allowing official sites for canceled lines to exist.

My other big question is why Hackmaster? A number of old TSR lines have gained new life in the d20 system (such as Ravenloft and Gamma World). I honestly can't understand why WotC would allow another company to produce an old line in a system other than d20. Especially when KenzerCo has shown itself able to produce an ostenively successful d20/ official D&D line with Kingdoms of Kalamar.

[kgauck]

There are a lot of things that could happen, but I find it hard to believe

that new players who discover a "HackRight" would simply ignore this

community entirely. Star Trek has gone through FASA, Last Unicorn, and is

now with Decipher and its fans just adapt to new role playing systems. Some

play the old FASA system, some play the new Decipher system, and so forth,

but that`s hardly something we would balk at. There is only one official BR

product in one system, but players who frequent this forum play other

systems and some have kept the setting current with a conversion to 3.x. If

you wanted to start a BR discussion on most standard game systems someone

would be here to tell you that they started working on it (and probably

never got finished). What is one more system? We are hardly system

specific. So what if one more system gets added to the mix. If it draws

new people to the BR that we know. If the new people don`t like what`s

going on here, we know its a Shadow World phenomena, and that it heralds

Azrai`s Return. Have a nice day.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Fearless_Leader]

I suppose my posts might make it seem like I'm more worried than I actually am, though I do remain uneasy, not so much for the rules, but for the actual creative setting themes themselves. Star Trek can move from company to company, but it's still Star Trek. No one's going to change that setting simply for the reason that its Star Trek.

Though my posts might make me look reactionary, I can tell you I am far from that. What I'm trying to get express is that I am not excited about this new BR material. What I'm trying to express is trepidation.

[Anakin_Miller]

> While I certainly agree with most of your points, this move nevertheless

makes me very nervous. Perhaps I`m being overly cynical, but it would truly

not surprise me if WotC came in and reversed themselves on allowing official

sites for canceled lines to exist.



You mean exactly what they just did to Athas.org? Only a few months after

Athas.org released the "official" fan written Dark Sun Conversion, Wizards

has given Dragon and Dungeon the go ahead to develop the official conversion

for the April issues of those mags. The fan sites and their fan made

creations are far from the only official material. If Wizards decides its

more financially sound to sell the material or lease it out then they

will... thats just business.



> My other big question is why Hackmaster?



Because they paid to license the 2e and 1e material for Hackmaster. Money

talks.....



-Anakin Miller

[Fearless_Leader]

Originally posted by Anakin_Miller@Feb 7 2004, 03:00 PM
Because they paid to license the 2e and 1e material for Hackmaster. Money talks
While I was unaware of this and I'm certainly not argueing against "Money talks", I don't think Hackmaster is capable of doing a good job. It's a tongue and cheek system that borders on a gigantic joke. Not really appropriate for Birthright, Darksun, or any number of other settings. "Money talks" only works when one doesn't ignore the fans and sacrifice quality control.
What I fully expect is to see products with goofy pictures on the front with names like "Road to Diz'Aster" (to name a product on the KenzerCo catalogue).

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Fearless_Leader" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 5:10 PM





> What I fully expect is to see products with goofy pictures on the

> front with names like "Road to Diz`Aster" (to name a

> product on the KenzerCo catalogue).



<shrug> That`s the nature of a parody. But its hardly a lack of quality

control, its a ... a parody. But even under the worst case scenario, the

Loonies who like to play a game that is a parody, might well get some of the

other kinds of players in their group to turn back to BR.



I am, however, not convicned that Hackmaster really is a parody. I think it

may well be a game system that functions as a parody (intentionally) as well

as a legitimate game system. In any event, parodies are funnier to those

people who know what is being made fun of, so not only is it designed for

us, but it might well draw folks in who what to see what all the guffaw`s

are about.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Trithemius]

Fearless_Leader:

> Even if WotC started putting out BR again, I wouldn`t be entirely happy

> unless all the old authors were working on it.



Looks like some of us are out of luck then...

They`d probably not enjoy me pimping other people`s game rules *anyway* :D



> In my mind, BR has creatively expanded a great deal since its cancellation

> largely because its been in the hands of the fans. For example, a great deal

> of about Anuirean society has been worked out by a number of fans, including

> myself.



Hear! Hear!

I personally spend more time pondering the intricacies of the BR-L archives

than I do the PSes these days.



> As well, now that this is happening, I have to seriously question the

> future of the whole BRCS and d20 Atlas project. Will WotC allow us to

> continue? Will any product we produce no longer be "official"

> but simply be fan produced fiction (and thus no longer allowing us the

> use of copy-righted material)? Will a seperate and completely new BR

> community growing up around the Hackmaster game eventually drain this

> one and eventually kill it?



Is Kenzer buying the whole ex-TSR back catalogue of BR stuff too?

That`s interesting...

I`m not particularly worried if my work on BR is considered to be "fan"

or "home rules"; codfication of several people`s "home-rules" is all that

campaign setting really is anyway. Official badges are nice, but lack of them

will not stop me playing and thinking about BR; or using the books that I

purchased to support my playing and thinking.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

-----------------------------------------------------

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[Trithemius]

Gary:

> It`d make the current round of record companies suing individual

> Internet users for downloading MP3`s look like a cake walk.



An interesting OT aside: A British music company (and one of my favourite

producers of music) Warp Records recently released their catalogue as higher

than normal quality MP3s through an online store. They have no copy-protection

mechanisms used at all because, so they say, they do not wish to treat their

consumers like potential criminals. They say that they hope that the

opportunity to buy cds in this format, and to buy single tracks, will encourage

their listeners to not steal music, but instead buy it easily online directly

from them.



> In the long run, if the Hackmaster version of things becomes more

> popular then that really only justifies the decision to go with an open source

> philosophy for the material in the first place. I don`t think we should

> worry overmuch about the actual game mechanics applied to the setting

> itself, since individuals can (and have) already applied a wide variety

> of rules to the setting in the BR community. It seems unlikely that such a

> trend will stop because of yet another set of rules being used.

> Hackmaster stuff may become dominant (though, I somehow doubt it) but on the

> whole the BR community itself doesn`t really suffer for that.



Indeed. Some of us were talking about weird things even back in 2e days! I`d

welcome any new products as fuel for the fires, but I don`t anticipate dropping

all my own efforts to date just because a new edition is produced by

sonmeone. ;)



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

-----------------------------------------------------

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[Trithemius]

Kenneth Gauck:

> There are a lot of things that could happen, but I find it hard to

> believe that new players who discover a "HackRight" would simply ignore this

> community entirely. Star Trek has gone through FASA, Last Unicorn, and

> is now with Decipher and its fans just adapt to new role playing systems.

> Some play the old FASA system, some play the new Decipher system, and so

> forth, but that`s hardly something we would balk at. There is only one

> official BR product in one system, but players who frequent this forum play

> other systems and some have kept the setting current with a conversion to 3.x.

> If you wanted to start a BR discussion on most standard game systems

> someone would be here to tell you that they started working on it (and

> probably never got finished). What is one more system? We are hardly system

> specific. So what if one more system gets added to the mix. If it draws

> new people to the BR that we know. If the new people don`t like what`s

> going on here, we know its a Shadow World phenomena, and that it

> heralds Azrai`s Return. Have a nice day.



FASA Star Trek is a Shadow World phenomenon. I had a six hour game of it once,

a while back... hold on... it wasn`t a game - it was character creation. And I

don`t mean I spent six hours writing my background either.



To drag myself back on topic; what other systems have people tried to `port BR

to? I have thought about Ars Magic (shock!); Hero Wars/Quest; BRP; -Storyteller

System-; and various homebrews. None of them ever got completely finished. How

about the rest of you? I remember Lyndon B. talking about Pendragon ages ago...



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

-----------------------------------------------------

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[Trithemius]

Does anyone know much about the guys behind Kenzer Co?

Are they hiring? ;D



But really, perhaps if someone could drop them a line or hit their forums (if

they have them) with some good questions we could find out whether we need to

be happy or terrified.



I might go see what I can find out myself, before the university decides I have

had enough internet for the day...



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

-----------------------------------------------------

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[Don E]

I don&#39;t think there is all that much to worry about. Personally I would like to see more products for BR made no matter the rules system. Kenzer has also made a ravenloft product, without that stopping Arthaus from publishing lots of products for it. Most likely this will not mount to more than one book for Hackmaster (I hope I&#39;m wrong), and Brithright will fall back into the obscurity of the fan domain.

Cheers,
Don E

[Birthright-L]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Don E" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>

Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 6:56 AM

Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] HackRight [2#2253]





> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2253

>

> Don E wrote:

> I don`t think there is all that much to worry about. Personally I would

like to see more products for BR made no matter the rules system. Kenzer has

also made a ravenloft product, without that stopping Arthaus from publishing

lots of products for it. Most likely this will not mount to more than one

book for Hackmaster (I hope I`m wrong), and Brithright will fall back into

the obscurity of the fan domain.

>





Does anyone know how much Hackright is Birthright--my suspicion of slight

parody makes it completely not useable for me and has no interest but if it

is Birthright without parody--then perhaps it will be worthwhile.



(Although personallly I find the humor inherent in Hackmaster rather

juvenile.)

[DanMcSorley]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004, John Machin wrote:

> To drag myself back on topic; what other systems have people tried to

> `port BR to? I have thought about Ars Magic (shock!); Hero Wars/Quest;

> BRP; -Storyteller System-; and various homebrews. None of them ever got

> completely finished. How about the rest of you? I remember Lyndon B.

> talking about Pendragon ages ago...



I think an interesting BR-type game could be done with Exalted, which is a

second or third generation version of the storyteller games. Characters

in exalted are heros imbued by the gods with magical powers. Change it to

be hereditary, and you`ve pretty much got the BR setup. Actually, the

Dragon-blooded in exalted are hereditary, but I find the Solars more fun

to play with.



It`s already got semi-builtin systems for handling domains, too; a

combination of the Resources trait, to handle money income, and treating

the population as a version of the Cult trait, which lets you regain

Essense (magical energy, used for powers) for having followers, and you`re

about set. It`s rather more abstract than BR itself, but the focus in

exalted is rather less on micromanagement, and more on crazy heroic

action.



I`d need to do some charm trees for domain level stuff, but that wouldn`t

be a problem really.



There`s a book coming up for it that is supposed to have mass combat

rules, too.



Hmm. I may have to put more thought into this.

--

Daniel McSorley

[Birthright-L]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Daniel McSorley" <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>

To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>

Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 1:17 PM

Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] HackRight [2#2253]





> On Sun, 8 Feb 2004, John Machin wrote:

> > To drag myself back on topic; what other systems have people tried to

> > `port BR to? I have thought about Ars Magic (shock!); Hero Wars/Quest;

> > BRP; -Storyteller System-; and various homebrews. None of them ever got

> > completely finished. How about the rest of you? I remember Lyndon B.

> > talking about Pendragon ages ago...

>



Pendragon would probably be pretty decent. I`ve done some work on Gurps

(using Gurps Supers for Blood Powers), and have been working on my private

Birthright Saga (I`m trying to find enough in game book art that prints

cleanly enough to make cards..all for only my own use of course.) I like

Saga but adapted it having two suits per archetype (Warriors, Keeps being

one set based on combat and defence. Wizards/Towers, magic and learning,

Priests/Temples, Faith and Community, and Rogues/Guilds for stealth and

commerce...





Someday I will finish it :)

[Lee]

In a message dated 2/7/04 8:37:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,

trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ writes:



<< Indeed. Some of us were talking about weird things even back in 2e days!

I`d

welcome any new products as fuel for the fires, but I don`t anticipate

dropping

all my own efforts to date just because a new edition is produced by

sonmeone. ;) >>



Hear, hear. If there are new BR products coming, great! If it turns out

they suck (and we`ll hear about it here), well, then I won`t buy them. Enough

people do that, and it`s back to being a fan-only world again.



Lee.

[Arjan]

Originally posted by Elton Robb@Feb 7 2004, 02:55 AM
Here&#39;s something I found on Wizards Chat, and KenzerCo&#39;s catalog. I&#39;m very angry now.
=================================
I think Kenzer & Co. got the license but is using it to expand their Hackmaster line. You guessed it, it&#39;s called Hackright.

I swear (but not profanely), what was thought to be a parody that was based on a fictional RPG from their long-running comic book ("Knights of the Dinner Table") is seriously becoming a legitimate game product.
===============================================
From K&C catalogue

HackRight K&C2123 &#036;34.99 WRITING
I talked to Foundry Dwarf (kenzo staff) a while ago (may 2003) when i found a Post on kenzo&#39;s forum (http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=224835&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1).

i just went there again and found out that A freelancer &#33;?&#33; took the stuff made by Dwarf, and made a new manuscript using HackMaster rules.

Further i have no idea of it, i havnt been contacted or so what.

A.

[Foundry_Dwarf]

Originally posted by Fearless_Leader@Feb 7 2004, 09:04 PM
As well, now that this is happening, I have to seriously question the future of the whole BRCS and d20 Atlas project. Will WotC allow us to continue? Will any product we produce no longer be "official" but simply be fan produced fiction (and thus no longer allowing us the use of copy-righted material)? Will a seperate and completely new BR community growing up around the Hackmaster game eventually drain this one and eventually kill it?
Hello, I am D. M. Zwerg ("Foundry_Dwarf" over at the Kenzer & Company forums).

Kenzer & Company has a couple of licenses from WotC. The Kalamar (D&D/d20) one is of no concern to this board, but the one for HackMaster is.
Basically, Kenzer & Company can use AD&D stuff in HackMaster, subject to WotC approval. Over a year ago some rabid Birthright fan over at Kenzer & Company (some short bearded guy who was the Miniatures Manager at the time) submitted a proposal to convert Birthright to HackMaster. This was approved by the bosses at Kenzer & Company and the proposal was submitted at that time to WotC.

This was nearly a year ago. If WotC hasn&#39;t messed with you yet on this account, then going forward with a HackMaster version of Birthright (aka, HackRight) should have no direct effect from WotC IMHO. I do hope that if WotC would ever consider publishing a D20 version of Birthright that they would talk to your group and publish your version. The HackMaster version should have no effect on the official status of your version.

I sincerely hope that the HackMaster version will raise awareness of Birthright in general and strengthen both your version and K&C&#39;s.

- D. M. zwerg
HMA Manager
Kenzer & Company

[Foundry_Dwarf]

Originally posted by kgauck@Feb 8 2004, 01:20 AM
I am, however, not convicned that Hackmaster really is a parody. I think it
may well be a game system that functions as a parody (intentionally) as well
as a legitimate game system. In any event, parodies are funnier to those
people who know what is being made fun of, so not only is it designed for
us, but it might well draw folks in who what to see what all the guffaw`s
are about.

HackMaster is a parody, but also is a serious RPG (it won the first Origin&#39;s "Game of the Year" award). It is not dark humor (ala Paranoia) nor entirely tongue in cheek like some parodies, but rather old AD&D with a venier of humor/parody riding on the top. Take a look at "Little Keep on the Borderlands", "City of Brass", or any of the other products or modules (and go beyond just looking at the cover) if you have any questions on this.

Also, feel free to come over to www.kenzerco.com amd post on the Kenzer & Company forums anytime. :D

-D. M. Zwerg

[Foundry_Dwarf]

Originally posted by Arjan@Feb 10 2004, 01:52 PM

I talked to Foundry Dwarf (kenzo staff) a while ago (may 2003) when i found a Post on kenzo&#39;s forum (http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=224835&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1).

i just went there again and found out that A freelancer &#33;?&#33; took the stuff made by Dwarf, and made a new manuscript using HackMaster rules.

Further i have no idea of it, i havnt been contacted or so what.

A.
Yup, I remember you B) (and was happy when you stopped by ... feel free to come back soon)

Yes indeed, a few months after we talked a freelancer dropped by and submitted a proposal to write the HackMaster version of Birthright. Seeing as I was more than busy with other projects and my feeling was that he knew more than I about medieval history and such, the green light was given. He started from scratch (or should I say, used his own home version) and submitted a manuscript that is now being edited. Up to this point I have had little to no influence on this version.

If you have futher questions/concerns feel free to ask (I may not be able to answer them at this time, but I will take your questions and concerns into account as much as possible even if I feel I can&#39;t answer them. :) )

-D. M. Zwerg
HMA Manager
Kenzer and Company

[Trithemius]

Daniel McSorley



> I think an interesting BR-type game could be done with Exalted, which is

> a second or third generation version of the storyteller games. Characters

> in exalted are heros imbued by the gods with magical powers. Change it

> to be hereditary, and you`ve pretty much got the BR setup. Actually, the

> Dragon-blooded in exalted are hereditary, but I find the Solars more

> fun to play with.



These punks stole my idea! (Or had it at the same time)



I was making a vaguely orientally-influenced elementally-linked BR-esque

setting for a while (with some kind of hot-rodded d20).



*mutter* Dragon-blooded indeed...*mutter*



;)



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

-----------------------------------------------------

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[DanMcSorley]

> Kenzer & Company has a couple of licenses from WotC. The Kalamar

> (D&D/d20) one is of no concern to this board, but the one for

> HackMaster is. Basically, Kenzer & Company can use AD&D stuff

> in HackMaster, subject to WotC approval. Over a year ago some rabid

> Birthright fan over at Kenzer & Company (some short bearded guy who

> was the Miniatures Manager at the time) submitted a proposal to convert

> Birthright to HackMaster. This was approved by the bosses at Kenzer

> & Company and the proposal was submitted at that time to WotC.

>

> This was nearly a year ago. If WotC hasn`t messed with you yet on this

> account, then going forward with a HackMaster version of Birthright

> (aka, HackRight) should have no direct effect from WotC IMHO. I do hope

> that if WotC would ever consider publishing a D20 version of Birthright

> that they would talk to your group and publish your version. The

> HackMaster version should have no effect on the official status of your

> version.

>

> I sincerely hope that the HackMaster version will raise awareness of

> Birthright in general and strengthen both your version and K&C`s.

>

> - D. M. zwerg

> HMA Manager

> Kenzer & Company



Glad to hear it. This will be the first hackmaster book I take a look at,

and I hope it does well for you guys.

--

Daniel McSorley