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geeman
01-29-2004, 08:09 PM
What is the distribution of bloodline strength among Cerilia`s scion? That

is, of the five bloodline strength categories; tainted, minor, major,

great, true in the total population of scions, what percentage of each are

there?



tainted

minor

major

great

true



The RB, of course, has its little table for assigning bloodline strength,

but that`s designed for PC generation, not an expression of actual

demographics. The 3e BRCS Playtest has its own percentages, but tainted

bloodlines are omitted from the system used in that text.



Gary

irdeggman
01-29-2004, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by geeman@Jan 29 2004, 03:09 PM
What is the distribution of bloodline strength among Cerilia`s scion? That

is, of the five bloodline strength categories; tainted, minor, major,

great, true in the total population of scions, what percentage of each are

there?



tainted

minor

major

great

true



The RB, of course, has its little table for assigning bloodline strength,

but that`s designed for PC generation, not an expression of actual

demographics. The 3e BRCS Playtest has its own percentages, but tainted

bloodlines are omitted from the system used in that text.



Gary


I don't know why using the table in the BR Rulebook would be that out of line. True, it is designed for PC generation, but it should work for a demographic too. If not, then every single scion would have to accounted for. Since most of the lesser scions are not listed in any published sourcebook it still falls on the DM to fill in the blanks.

So no matter how it is cut, there is some extrapolation involved.

geeman
01-30-2004, 08:16 AM
At 09:28 PM 1/29/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



>I don`t know why using the table in the BR Rulebook would be that out of

>line. True, it is designed for PC generation, but it should work for a

>demographic too. If not, then every single scion would have to accounted

>for. Since most of the lesser scions are not listed in any published

>sourcebook it still falls on the DM to fill in the blanks.

>

> So no matter how it is cut, there is some extrapolation involved.



Many of the tables for bloodline system in the original RB used very

strange and even nonsensical percentages from what I can tell. I`ve been

trying to discern the logic and math of Table 12 for years now and I`m

still coming up blank. The percentages in the RB (Table 10) aren`t as

bizarre, but they are still somewhat odd and top heavy:



Tainted 25%

Minor 40%

Major 30%

Great 5%



70% chance to be minor or major seems more like an attempt to have PCs with

a certain "average" range rather than an attempt to accurately portray the

percentages of such characters. One could, of course, rationalize such a

thing (lower bloodlines die out, etc.) but such arguments are pretty easily

countered, and don`t really add up in the first place IMO.



The numbers presented in the Playtest by contrast are



Minor 65%

Major (presumably 35%)

Great <0.1%



which would appear to be a recognition that there should be some sort of

distribution in accordance to the power of the bloodline strength scores.



Gary

irdeggman
01-30-2004, 09:59 AM
If you look at the percentages from the standpoint of the Chap 2 revision table

Approx 65% Minor
30% Major
5% Great

and then combine the tainted and minor numbers from the BR Rulebook (much more approriate since they are more functionally the same than are minor and major bloodlines) you end up with

Approx 65% Minor
30% Major
5% Great

Amazing the coincidence, isn&#39;t it?

Now as I recall Kenneth&#39;s system (based on comments not ever having seen his complete house rules - you really should post them on the downloads seeing as how much detail and effert you&#39;ve put into them, again based on comments)
He bases the strength of bloodlines on the number (and size) of holdings available in an area. Essentially the greater &#39;need&#39; for bloodlines the greater the strength and number of scion in the area. Maybe I&#39;ve oversimlpified, but I believe that was the underlying principle there. That will work and makes sense logically, but is far too detailed and time consuming for the average DM, IMO.

kgauck
01-30-2004, 08:23 PM
I just pick a bloodline strength based on your character backround.

Depending on the detail of your backround an the goals the character has, I

can pick a number out of hat (which is typically d6+12). If you claim to be

related to a known character (eg. the Mhor`s nephew) I look at that

character, and basically average the NPC`s bloodline with 15. If a player

wants a higher bloodline, I will give more, but I reserve the right in those

cases to make the game world a bit more demanding of your character. Side

with me, help my cause, defend my town, find this relic, lead this army,

swear this oath, accept this burden.



My system amounts to pick a number that makes sense in the context of the

character and their situation.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

kgauck
01-30-2004, 08:23 PM
----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 4:00 AM





> and then combine the tainted and minor numbers from the BR

> Rulebook (much more approriate since they are more functionally

> the same than are minor and major bloodlines) you end up with

>

> Approx 65% Minor

> 30% Major

> 5% Great

>

> Amazing the coincidence, isn`t it?



Hmmm, I`m not sure. I have 169 characters in my bloodline database (one of

these days I`ll add more characters). Its everyone mentioned in Ruins of

Empire and the basin states from Havens of the Great Bay. I include figures

like Moro Mentier of Illien. Which makes me think I might be going through

PS`s too. Its been a while. And Sarae Somellin of Mieres. I count 15

tainted bloodlines. 71 minor bloodlines. 68 major bloodlines, 14 great

bloodlines (of whom only 3 are Anuirean humans, 3 are elves, and 8 are

Brecht !?!)



Tainted plus minor is 51%, major is 41%, and great is 8%. This could be

because the Havens basin states screw up the nice stats from Anuire.



Sorting only for Anuire, I get 11 tainted, 55 minor, 55 major, and 5 great .



Tainted plus minor is 52%, major is 43%, and great is 4% (1% rounding).



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

irdeggman
01-30-2004, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by kgauck@Jan 30 2004, 03:23 PM
----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 4:00 AM





> and then combine the tainted and minor numbers from the BR

> Rulebook (much more approriate since they are more functionally

> the same than are minor and major bloodlines) you end up with

>

> Approx 65% Minor

> 30% Major

> 5% Great

>

> Amazing the coincidence, isn`t it?



Hmmm, I`m not sure. I have 169 characters in my bloodline database (one of

these days I`ll add more characters). Its everyone mentioned in Ruins of

Empire and the basin states from Havens of the Great Bay. I include figures

like Moro Mentier of Illien. Which makes me think I might be going through

PS`s too. Its been a while. And Sarae Somellin of Mieres. I count 15

tainted bloodlines. 71 minor bloodlines. 68 major bloodlines, 14 great

bloodlines (of whom only 3 are Anuirean humans, 3 are elves, and 8 are

Brecht &#33;?&#33;)



Tainted plus minor is 51%, major is 41%, and great is 8%. This could be

because the Havens basin states screw up the nice stats from Anuire.



Sorting only for Anuire, I get 11 tainted, 55 minor, 55 major, and 5 great .



Tainted plus minor is 52%, major is 43%, and great is 4% (1% rounding).



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com













Good database Kenneth. The problem comes in if it is assumed that all of the mentioned scions in the published material reflect an accurate cross section. IMO this is probably false, since in general only the extraordinary and important ones are mentioned - not the 3rd son of some minor noble, etc. Hence the NPCs mentioned would tend to skew to the higher bloodline strengths and this could easily explain the difference between the percentages.

It also looks like the monsters (Awnshegh) will take up a lot of the scions mentioned, which is pretty un cross section - like (and top heavy).

kgauck
01-31-2004, 01:24 PM
----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 2:37 PM



> The problem comes in if it is assumed that all of the mentioned scions

> in the published material reflect an accurate cross section. IMO this

> is probably false.



Agreed. That`s why my ideal situation would be to build a typical realm

from the ground up and go back and look at the choices made. Even looking

at my Taelshore site reveals I have concentrated more heaviliy rulers at the

realm level. In part this is because I add published figures faster than I

invent characters, in part its because I have a need to know Mheallie Bireon

and not the Guildsdeputy in Mountainsedge, unless we go to Mountainsedge.



> It also looks like the monsters (Awnshegh) will take up a lot of the

> scions mentioned, which is pretty un cross section - like (and top heavy).



Which is why I don`t track them in my database, unless you can encounter

them in human form and not know their abominable nature.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

geeman
01-31-2004, 01:24 PM
At 11:00 AM 1/30/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



>If you look at the percentages from the standpoint of the Chap 2 revision

>table

>

> Approx 65% Minor

> 30% Major

> 5% Great

>

> and then combine the tainted and minor numbers from the BR Rulebook

> (much more approriate since they are more functionally the same than are

> minor and major bloodlines) you end up with

>

> Approx 65% Minor

> 30% Major

> 5% Great

>

> Amazing the coincidence, isn`t it?



Right... My point, however, was that the numbers in the original RB weren`t

really all that sensible as a portrayal of the actual spread of bloodline

strength through the population of scions on the whole continent. Those

numbers are workable for character generation, but if describing the whole

range of PC and NPC scions, it seems fairly sensible given the way

bloodlines are inherited and handed down that there would be more major

than great, more minor than major, and more tainted than minor. Table 10

isn`t the zaniest table in the BR materials, but it`s not necessarily meant

to be an accurate portrayel of the demographics of bloodline

strength. It`s all well and good that the Playtest stayed as close as

possible to the original distribution of bloodline strength in its

descriptive text, but there`s not a lot of actual reason in that system for

bloodlines to be laid out like that table, nor in any of the proposed

bloodline systems IIRC, so what I`m asking about is what is the actual,

Cerilia-wide distribution of bloodline strength in the whole population?



>Now as I recall Kenneth`s system (based on comments not ever having seen

>his complete house rules - you really should post them on the downloads

>seeing as how much detail and effert you`ve put into them, again based on

>comments)

> He bases the strength of bloodlines on the number (and size) of holdings

> available in an area. Essentially the greater `need` for bloodlines the

> greater the strength and number of scion in the area. Maybe I`ve

> oversimlpified, but I believe that was the underlying principle

> there. That will work and makes sense logically, but is far too detailed

> and time consuming for the average DM, IMO.



I think that`s workable to a certain extent, but in general does it

describe the distribution of bloodline strength through the whole

population or does it better describe the location of the said

scions? That is, doesn`t that better locate the existing scions according

to their bloodline strength, but it still doesn`t tell us how many of each

(as a percentage) there are in the whole continent?



Gary

irdeggman
01-31-2004, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by geeman@Jan 31 2004, 08:24 AM
I think that`s workable to a certain extent, but in general does it

describe the distribution of bloodline strength through the whole

population or does it better describe the location of the said

scions? That is, doesn`t that better locate the existing scions according

to their bloodline strength, but it still doesn`t tell us how many of each

(as a percentage) there are in the whole continent?



Gary


Unfortunately it never will since the unnotable scions will never be mentioned in any source document that can be used as a reference.

That is to say there is no basis to determine the &#39;proper&#39; demographics and IMO there is none.

geeman
01-31-2004, 05:50 PM
At 04:36 PM 1/31/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



> Unfortunately it never will since the unnotable scions will never be

> mentioned in any source document that can be used as a reference.

>

> That is to say there is no basis to determine the `proper` demographics

> and IMO there is none.



Let me try it this way... if one were going to make an estimate what kind

of distribution do you think there might be? Are there twice as many

tainted scions as minor, twice as many minor as major, etc? Is the

distribution top heavy in that there are more great bloodlines than would

be possible for a standard, curved demographic spread. I`m just curious

what people`s impressions are here.



Or, optionally, if one were going to make up a chart to determine the

bloodline strength of a random NPC scion using numbers that reflected the

actual distribution throughout the population of Cerilia what numbers would

you put in? Assume for the moment that one isn`t constrained by d100 if

one thinks great bloodlines should be 1 in 1,000 or something like that.



Personally, I always like using the halving method when doing such a

distribution because it`s so simple and easily conceptualized. That is,

half the scions in Cerilia are tainted, half the remainder are minor, on up

through all the strengths, but in this case I`m not so sure that works

since it comes out to something like:



Tainted 50%

Minor 25%

Major 15% (rounded up)

Great 7%

True 3%



In some old number crunching using the population levels in the published

materials the population of Cerilia came out to be somewhere in the

neighborhood of 6 or 7 million. (The population probably should be more in

the neighborhood of 15-20 million, but we needn`t worry about that at the

moment.) If one in a thousand Cerilians are scions that would make for

7,000 (rounded up) scions and a couple hundred true bloodlines, and around

500 great bloodlines, so halving alone doesn`t work very well--unless one

sees a lot more beefy bloodlines running around than I normally do.



Gary

irdeggman
01-31-2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by geeman@Jan 31 2004, 12:50 PM
Let me try it this way... if one were going to make an estimate what kind

of distribution do you think there might be? Are there twice as many

tainted scions as minor, twice as many minor as major, etc? Is the

distribution top heavy in that there are more great bloodlines than would

be possible for a standard, curved demographic spread. I`m just curious

what people`s impressions are here.



Or, optionally, if one were going to make up a chart to determine the

bloodline strength of a random NPC scion using numbers that reflected the

actual distribution throughout the population of Cerilia what numbers would

you put in? Assume for the moment that one isn`t constrained by d100 if

one thinks great bloodlines should be 1 in 1,000 or something like that.



Personally, I always like using the halving method when doing such a

distribution because it`s so simple and easily conceptualized. That is,

half the scions in Cerilia are tainted, half the remainder are minor, on up

through all the strengths, but in this case I`m not so sure that works

since it comes out to something like:



Tainted 50%

Minor 25%

Major 15% (rounded up)

Great 7%

True 3%



In some old number crunching using the population levels in the published

materials the population of Cerilia came out to be somewhere in the

neighborhood of 6 or 7 million. (The population probably should be more in

the neighborhood of 15-20 million, but we needn`t worry about that at the

moment.) If one in a thousand Cerilians are scions that would make for

7,000 (rounded up) scions and a couple hundred true bloodlines, and around

500 great bloodlines, so halving alone doesn`t work very well--unless one

sees a lot more beefy bloodlines running around than I normally do.



Gary


Gary, didn&#39;t I give you what I thought could be used? But you rejected it off the cuff and then went to ask for an opinion again? I have no idea what you are trying to do here?

Kenneth&#39;s numbers come pretty close to backing up the % I listed from the 2nd ed material and the BRCS, assuming that the unnotables are filled in. My assumption is he started at the top and worked his way down.

Another variant for breakdowns works on the 10 X scale

There are 10 times as many majors as greats
there are 10 times as many minors as majors
there are 10 times as many tainted as minors

geeman
01-31-2004, 08:40 PM
At 07:19 PM 1/31/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



>Gary, didn`t I give you what I thought could be used? But you rejected it

>off the cuff and then went to ask for an opinion again? I have no idea

>what you are trying to do here?



What I`m asking here is for a simple percentage. Of the four bloodline

strengths how big a pie slice is each one? I`m not looking for an actual

nose count, just the general break down for the entire population.



If those percentages are based on an overall "population level to scion"

relationship then that`s great, but what`s the relationship and how are the

total percentages being derived? One could backward engineer that method

to come up with a simple percentage if one had all the population levels

and existing scions in a database--but unfortunately nobody`s mentioned any

actual numbers that might be used by that method, just that the

distribution of scions is based on population levels. Because I don`t know

what the relationship is I can`t really use that all by itself without some

sort of indication what the relationship actually is.



>Kenneth`s numbers come pretty close to backing up the % I listed from the

>2nd ed material and the BRCS, assuming that the unnotables are filled in.

>My assumption is he started at the top and worked his way down.



Okay, but as you indicated that data is based on scions published in the BR

materials, which is probably not a representative sample of all scions, and

that`s what I`m curious about--all the scions in Cerilia, not just the ones

described in the published materials.



> Another variant for breakdowns works on the 10 X scale

>

> There are 10 times as many majors as greats

> there are 10 times as many minors as majors

> there are 10 times as many tainted as minors



OK, good. Here we go. If there are 6-7,000 scions in Cerilia that would

make for something like:



Tainted 6,000

Minor 600

Major 60

Great 6



Off the cuff... that seems a little low for major and great bloodlines. I

suspect a straight line relationship (halving or x10) won`t work. It might

require a curve.



Gary

Solmyr
02-02-2004, 04:54 PM
I made a similar database some time in the past, mapping out the bloodlines by strength, score, and derivation. My table only includes regents (with a few exceptions), not all scions. Here it is:



True
Azrai
Gorgon Gorgon&#39;s Crown 100
Rhuobhe Rhuobhe 95
Spider Spiderfell 95
Leviathan 85
Raven Ust Atka 77
Serpent Isle of the Serpent 77
El-Sheighül Djira ?

Great
Anduiras
Darien Avan Avanil 70
Caliedhe Dosiere Imperial City 64
Rhobher Nichaleir Western Imperial Temple of Haelyn 53
Wulfram Wainier Promontory &#40;thane&#41; 48
Rhiana Waynmuun Coullabhie 43
Shaemes Karlburgher Grevesmühl 40
Basaïa
Thelma est Chauchen Treucht Chauchen 62
Rhuandice Tuarlachiem House Tuarlachiem 56
Belinda Ehrsdottal Treucht 40
Alford Oerwinde Rheulgard &#40;Edlenna&#41; 39
Markhab el-Aldezar Ghamoura 37
Gerad ibn Farid el-Arrasi Ariya 36
Dizel Lafirz Great Temple of Avani 31
Brenna
Erik Danig Danigau 54
Llaeddra Lluabraight 50
Katherine Gauren Danig Danigau 47
Ludwig von Schaeffen Berhagen 42
Kurt Warkinde Stormlord Seerbrand 32
Reynir
Fhileraene Tuarhievel 55
Masela
Jollid Innkeeper Breadfruit North-South 38
Vorynn
The Wizard Five Peaks 45
Marisha Rodelovisk Rzhlev 38
Morathos Everdark Bright Ember&#39;s Darkness 38
Azrai
Seadrake Straits of Aerele 80
Vampire Vampire&#39;s Hold 49
Fulda Geissen Hag 39
Apocalypse 34

Major
Anduiras
Aeric Boeruine Boeruine 60
Daeric Mhoried Mhoried 46
Ruarch Rockhammer Moradin&#39;s Forge 41
Kalilah el-Mashil Khourane 39
Thrakkazz Blood Skull Barony 38
Liliene Swordwraith Aerenwe 37
Edvara Garrelban Burrows 32
Colier Caernson Dauren 31
Lavalan Briesen Orthodox Imperial Temple of Haelyn 30
Thuriene Donalls Talinie 30
Grimm Graybeard Baruk-Azhik 38
Medhlorie Haensen Life & Protection of Avanalae 36
Omar el-Zisef Zikala 36
William Moergen Osoerde rebels 35
Torele Anviras 35
Harald Khorien Taeghas 33
Brand Mournsinger Kiergiyarden 33
Peak Mage 32
Iocas Narvadae Medecian Way of Avani 30
Anea Kafalie Dragonsea Temple of Haelyn 29
Hubaere Armiendin Impregnable Heart of Haelyn 27
Stiele Ghieste 27
Vladimir Nikailov Kozlovnyy 27
Grovnikk Glössevik Grovnikken Stohlevvskyy 24
Luther Helmsen Ruornil&#39;s Silver Guard 23
Caelcorwynn 22
Basaïa
Assan ibn Daouta Elinie 47
Carilon Alam Alamie 46
Eriene Mierelen Brosengae 41
Shandare Zikalan Temple of Avani 39
Kassim el-Dhousai Min Dhousai 38
Quirad al-Dinn 38
Omar el-Rehal Docandragh Coster 28
Goulan el-Zesande Merasaf 27
Kelda Auslawsen Mountain Brigands 23
Nikoli Brokeslav Belinik Tsarevic 23
Einar Kuppel Hjorig 23
Banira el-Reshid Binsada 22
Alnor Jankaping 22
Gastus Reigaart 20
Brenna
Heirl Diem Diemed 42
Mheallie Bireon Stonecrown Coster 37
Jaison Raenech Osoerde 36
Ohlaak the Dragon 34
Larra Nielems Northern Reformed Church of Sarimie 32
Fin Haeaelfyn Fin&#39;s Harvesters 31
Kalien Endier 30
Ulrich Kvigmar 30
Tanbeir Lossen Fürveldt Trepkin 30
Richard Talbehr Müden 30
Moerele Lannaman Maesil Shippers 29
Bedoureg 29
Storm Holtson Stjordvik Traders 28
Colin Shaefpaete Zweilund Isles 28
Mieles Buired Suiriene 27
Yousef el-Mesir Mesire 26
Alaric I Rohrmarch 26
Elan Fairbairn Land&#39;s Protectorate 26
Sacha Kaptrev Northern Traders Guild 25
Marlae Roesone Roesone 24
Darius Asparta Society of the Serpent 23
Oden Rohrmarch 22
Reynir
Gavin Tael Ghoere 49
Fhiele Dhoesone Dhoesone 46
Sirene Wassercrest Sailor&#39;s Home 36
Suris Enlien Medoere 32
Günther Brandt Oaken Grove of Erik 32
Rhynnwyd Innishiere 29
Bervinig Halskapa 28
Thorjak the Green 28
Camyrynnyd Bullahrie Sayer of Coullabhie 28
Darold Wohlkern Sera&#39;s Perfekt Symmetry 27
Lianna Rünjoral 27
Tjorgrim Stonesoul Khurin-Azur 26
Hruthvar Svinik 24
Uldviik Hjolvar 22
Hubrik Raeslund Red Sword Guarding 22
Niobhe 21
Yolanda Serif Extraordinary Traders of Turin 20
Dorin Utterlund Deep Steel Miners 20
Masela
Fulda Spiritwalker Ela&#39;s Quick Fingers 32
Fiona bragh Garradhgynn Rhuannach 28
Karl Tehrbach Kirche&#39;s Tundarr 26
Kort Lap Tunraus Nachteben 25
Vorynn
Mhistecai 45
Sword Mage 42
Isaelie Sielwode 42
Aelies High Mage 36
Eyeless One 35
Freila Hogunmark 32
Northri Guthvarsson Temple of Khurin-Azur 32
Regien 30
Gretta Seligsdotter Emerald Spiral 28
Richard Kaysun Rheulgard 28
Caine 27
Corazon bint Rilni Red Witch 27
Marya Nivernny Swan Mage 27
Jayim el-Zisef 26
Turanda el-Shaifal White Sorceress 26
Clumine Dhoesone 25
Hermedhie 24
Dargal Urga-Zai 24
Albrecht Graben Grabentod 23
Adara bint Reshoud 22
Dremmin Slyzky Morjägers 22
Azrai
Basilisk Basilisk 48
Kraken Krakennauricht 47
Sphinx Sphinx 47
Magian Pipryet 44
Karl Bissel Massenmarch 39
Drago Malik One True Church of Vosgaard &#40;Osoerde&#41; 34
Parniel Bowspear Grabentod 33
Dzintar Temple of Torazan 28
Rigel min Namal Nuridan Temple of Sarma 27
El-Sirad Mour el-Sirad 27
Chernevik Temple of Might &#40;Kozlovnyy&#41; 25
Tie&#39;skar Graecher Thurazor 24
Turiye min Saida Brotherhood of Khet 23
Burzuk the Great Iron Hand Tribes 22

Minor
Anduiras
Daeric Dhoesone 30
Diirk Watershold Royal Guild of Baruk-Azhik 29
Bannier Andien Andien & Sons 21
Ghorien Hiriele Highland/Overland Traders 20
Entier Gladanil Cariele 20
Faroud min Gheirut White Sword of Khirdai 19
Fhylie the Sword Militant Order of Cuiraecen 18
Onwen Späkhaert Kiergard 17
Golbrag Untswahl Kiergard&#39;s Broken Stave 16
Pieter Astridsen Old Father of Forests 15
Delma Fussen Haelyn&#39;s Warriors 13
Delia of Coeranys Saere Consortium 12
Omadi the Quick Gold Coast Coster 8
Basaïa
Jihal el-Arrat Fiery Dawn of Avani 19
Darlure Smoothface Copper & Coke 19
Taril Herad Chosen of Khirdai 18
Talis Sheklen Red Sword Striking 18
Hollisande Burnlaffen Burnlaffen, Chillde, & Tallrow 17
Arlinda Aldor Black Ice Traders 17
Alassin el-Maïr Mairada 16
Kallen Pickbiter Daikhar Zhigun 16
Brenna
Laela Flaertes Tuornen 35
Elamien Lamier Points East Trading Guild 25
Sarand Fasir Merchant Consortium of Suiriene 20
Beysim el-Duatim Sendoure 19
Ouisira bint Falih Djafran Merchant League 19
Volse Redbedtehr Burgundy Slepsid 19
Frederika Liebshül Rheulgard 19
Delma Nauren Grabentod 18
Arron Vaumel Mieres 17
Jasmina el-Mesir Temple of the Ancients 17
Varri Stjordvik 17
Mor Drachen Drachenward 17
Parnien Anuvier Iniere Prince&#39;s Pride 15
Aswan bin Serhouf Zhaïnge Merchant Guild 15
Kalilah Sun-Eyes Darkblades 15
Fulgar the Bold Rjuvik 14
Ilse Redbedtehr Burgundy Tolsted 13
Matilend Freiss Fortune&#39;s Forethought 13
Melisande Reaversbane Müden 13
Ilse Rheiter Unbrausen Temple of Kirche 12
Reynir
Kiel Adler Wierech 19
Adaere Doneim Northern Imports & Exports 17
Caliene Llwelyn 16
Gelda Fresmund Drachenchauchen 16
Arlando el-Adaba Red King of Aftane 15
Arien Borthein Boeruine Trading Guild 14
Ahrek Coastal Temple of Nesirie 14
Azusena ap-Drin Wachen an Sonnlacht 10
Masela
Eluvie Cariele Coeranys 23
Beshid el-Djafara Djafra 22
Rogr Aglondier Ilien 21
Siele Ghoried Spider River Traders 21
Rahil the Falcon 19
Theofold Brecht Seelundkaufen 18
Mourde Alondir Erebannien Guild 15
Cedriane Alghasne Church of the Eternal Seas 15
Mal Puiren Fingers of Azrai 14
Malik el-Djafara El-Deyir 12
Vorynn
Arlen Innis 19
Taeric Uluine Gray Shadow 19
Nashal ibn Remil Wind Mage 19
Jabil min Rilni Temple of Rilni 19
Skaviks Redfurrow Slave Drivers 17
Dashid the Astronomer 16
Chesspola Fröschen Winter Witches 16
Finn 12
Halimah el-Nasib Gradny Coster 12
Haswan Mandil Binsadan Temple of Leira 9
Azrai
Hydra Harrowmarsh 47
Danita Kusor Chimaera 38
Lamia Besaïam 38
Maalvar Maze of the Minotaur 36
Justina Heulough Banshegh 33
Manticore Morrins 31
Siren Siren&#39;s Realm 29
White Witch White Witch 20
Ghuralli Giantdowns 19
Ghus Feuerscorn Yeenoghu&#39;s Dark Curse 19
Shalilah min Nurida Nurida 15
Gabrend Sontrene Almighty Temple of Belinik &#40;Pipryet&#41; 15
Helmut Gruber Ghoudaïa Coster 14
Garak zul Turbun Black Spear Tribes 12

Tainted
Anduiras
Orthien Tane Southern Anuire Shipping & Imports 8
Basaïa
Rashid min Uighera Tarvan Waste 11
Teira min Uighera Raging Heart of Avani 9
Tihara min Buseri Shield of Halaïa 9
Fazouk Zuarim Fosslumbren 7
Madina el-Wasir Djiran Temple of Leira 6
Brenna
Gaelin Thuried Upper Anuire Traders 12
El-Hadid Port of Call Exchange 10
Huseti Trosane Dragonsea Coster 10
Everard von Schleiss Sera&#39;s Blessing 7
Talin bin Shantil League of Pious Merchants 6
Ailein 5
Reynir
El-Badein 5
Masela

Vorynn
Duriene Peracain Second Swamp Mage 15
Lakial Sons of the Serpent 10
Harlmut King&#39;s Men 8
Barouya 7
Godar Thurinson Mur-Kilad 5
Azrai
Harpy Isle of the Harpy 18
Boar Thuringode 16
Wolf Wolfgaard 11
Kral Two-Toes Goblins&#39; Triumph 10
Tyrus Yurdvik Bannalach Spoilers 9
Razzik Fanggrabber Markazor 2


It is interesting that all the Great Basaia bloodlines seem to be in Brechtur (and one is held by an elf&#33;). Half of Great Anduiras bloodlines are not in Anuire (again, interestingly they include an elf and a dwarf). Great Brenna bloodlines at least seem mostly be Brecht, though one is again held by an elf (how come there are no goblins with Great bloodlines?)

pmcaveney
02-20-2004, 09:33 PM
My apologies for reviving a dead thread, but I just registered here.

IMHO the central question here - the distribution of bloodline types - has cultural answers, not an absolute one. It depends on how many blooded folks you have and their density. Southern Anuire is densely populated, and marriages to the unblooded are probably uncommon. That would lead to a curve with a swollen belly near the average (probably upper minor would be the peak.) In a frontier region, on the other hand, marriages to commoners would be more frequent and tainted bloodlines would be the most numerous.

Which brings me to a different but related topic - does Anuire have a gentry? What do they do for a living?

I like Birthright, but it always bugged me that the feudal hierarchy wasn&#39;t built into the game. In fact fealty is barely mentioned in the original boxed set. I&#39;m perfectly happy tacking rules for vassalage onto the game, but it struck me as odd that they weren&#39;t already there.

Obviously we have lots of spare heirs floating around, destabilizing the system - they&#39;re a plot necessity anyhow. Seems to me that Cerilia should have a permanent underclass of non-regent blooded folks, though - what&#39;s their social role? Is Anuire full of manors and serfs, for example? (I&#39;m sure there is a diversity of types of commoners - probably free farmers in the Brecht domains, etc.) The regency/holding system doesn&#39;t require these minor blooded families, so how do they typically put food on the table? Are most knights blooded?

I&#39;m not upset by the omission - I&#39;m a big boy and can narrate my own game without help - but I feel an important untold story here. How do you handle this in your games?

Birthright-L
02-20-2004, 11:00 PM
> I`m not upset by the omission - I`m a big boy and can narrate my own

> game without help - but I feel an important untold story here. How do

> you handle this in your games?



My campaign has a little more of a comic book or highlander style feel

to it. I take it as a basic assumption that bloodlines influence

personality and many of the non-regent blooded (and maybe some of the

regent blooded) are still involved in an ages-old divine war that none

of them understand or remember. Bloodtheft, for example, can`t be used

against someone with your derivation. You can stab `em and stab `em,

but it`s only in stabbing a blood enemy that gets you power. (This

solved my scion-breeding problem but unfortunately removed some of the

intrigue.)



I have a whole class of scions of all different races who are still

continuing the war, consolidating power, and developing into powerful

ersheigh and awnsheigh.



And now new bloodlines are being discovered...



--Lord Rahvin

kgauck
02-21-2004, 02:20 AM
----- Original Message -----

From: "pmcaveney" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 3:33 PM





> My apologies for reviving a dead thread, but I just registered here.



Threads never die, they just go into hiding.



> Which brings me to a different but related topic - does Anuire

> have a gentry? What do they do for a living?



I think Anuire (and the rest in their own ways) all have a gentry class. By

gentry, I include not just smaller landlords, but also (in the context of

guilds) burghers, and (in temples) clergy.



> What`s their social role?



They run things on the village, town, and fief level. The game seems to

operate at the level of multi-provinces, so I imagine a single province

level nobility (which the BR materials like to refer to as counts), and

below them a class of knights and other gentry.



The idea I think is key here is that RP and GB are so abstract they can

represent what you want them to. There are are no wrong answers in this

department. If you like a Roman social order, great, feudal, no problem,

Aztec, go for it.



As I see it, much of the BR tables support a feudal interpretation.

Military units are so cheap they certainly seem to be only a small part of

the real cost, as if you were calling up people with military obligations.

The structure of the tax income compared to the huge increases of population

as province levels increase seem to suggest to me that more levels of nobles

have been added between the over-all ruler and the gentry class.



> The regency/holding system doesn`t require these minor blooded families,

> so how do they typically put food on the table?



The regency/holding system doesn`t discuss them, but I don`t find a totally

flat social order, where the ruler directly rules every subject directly

without intermediaries, to be plausible.



> Are most knights blooded?



Not as far as I am concerned.



YMMV, but this is my take on these questions.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com