PDA

View Full Version : [BIRTHRIGHT] TR with Virutal Guilds



Trithemius
01-26-2004, 09:16 AM
> A question came up in my game and I am wondering how others, more

> familiar with Birthright, would of ruled.

> If your using the virtual guilds rule where high level sources can act

> like low level guild holdings, and a player wants to put a land trade

> route between two such source holdings, would such a trade route require

> a road like a normal/regular land trade route?



I believe that the rules say: yes, you do need a road to link the provinces.

These rules are rather silly though, in my opinion. It requires the wizard`s traderoute to

occupy an important "slot" in the other province, and it is very unlikely that the province

with the level 7 source (I believe this is the required level) will be more than a rating 2

province. Given that this traderoute slot could be otherwise used far more profitably (and

thus, generate more taxable income!) it seems to me that it is ver unlikely that a ruler or a

guilder would ever permit a wizard to create such a holding.



I personally like the idea that the wizard has special knowledge of the provinces

resources and can come down out of the mountains (or forest) with gems (or precious

amber or something) and make money from it. I do not think, however, that the trade

route mechanic is a good way of doing this. Better to be simple and say something like:

A source of 7+ gives an income of 1GB per season in rare materials that the wizard is

able to locate with his/her intimate knowledge of the area.

Much clearer and simpler, IMO. And it does not irritate tax-hungry nobles or trade-hungry

guilders, who can be induced through other means to make contributions to a wizard`s

resources (gold-rush or death plague... whatever works ;))



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

-----------------------------------------------------

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

A_dark
01-26-2004, 01:32 PM
Imagine an elven realm with no guilds (there are many of those) or with guilds that are described as forest creatures and rangers, implying that they don't really trade. Imagine a 7/7 province. Imagine the elves making a LOT of money from those routes ;)

As for the roads etc, the source TRs need everything that normal TRs need.

kgauck
01-26-2004, 09:56 PM
----- Original Message -----

From: "A_dark" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 7:32 AM





> Imagine an elven realm with no guilds (there are many of those) or

> with guilds that are described as forest creatures and rangers, implying

> that they don`t really trade. Imagine a 7/7 province. Imagine the elves

> making a LOT of money from those routes ;)



Trading with who for what?



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

Trithemius
01-27-2004, 06:40 AM
A_dark:

> Imagine an elven realm with no guilds (there are many of those) or with

> guilds that are described as forest creatures and rangers, implying that

> they don`t really trade. Imagine a 7/7 province. Imagine the elves

> making a LOT of money from those routes ;)



Imagine the sylvan sidhe as busy little plutocrats? No thanks. ;)



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

-----------------------------------------------------

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

ConjurerDragon
01-27-2004, 05:23 PM
John Machin schrieb:



>A_dark:

>

>

>> Imagine an elven realm with no guilds (there are many of those) or with

>>guilds that are described as forest creatures and rangers, implying that

>>they don`t really trade. Imagine a 7/7 province. Imagine the elves

>>making a LOT of money from those routes ;)

>>

>>

>Imagine the sylvan sidhe as busy little plutocrats? No thanks. ;)

>--

>John Machin

>(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

>

The sidhelien certainly could make a lot of money if they wanted. If I

recall the descriptions of elven chain mail or the elven platemail from

2E AD&D which were highly priced and nowwhere to be bought but only to

be had as a kings gift or something like that then they are as able

craftsmen as the dwarves. But they do not sell those valuable goods. But

even elven musical instruments would be highly sought in other lands so

I do not understand that some want to see sidhelien realms totally free

of guild holdings.

bye

Michael

geeman
01-27-2004, 06:45 PM
At 05:59 PM 1/27/2004 +0100, Michael Romes wrote:



>The sidhelien certainly could make a lot of money if they wanted. If I

>recall the descriptions of elven chain mail or the elven platemail from

>2E AD&D which were highly priced and nowwhere to be bought but only to

>be had as a kings gift or something like that then they are as able

>craftsmen as the dwarves. But they do not sell those valuable goods. But

>even elven musical instruments would be highly sought in other lands so

>I do not understand that some want to see sidhelien realms totally free

>of guild holdings.



Not to mention that elves have access to arcane magics which would likely

make them the premier magic item manufacturers of Cerilia. (The various

the temples might compete with them in this regard to a certain extent.)



Gary

A_dark
01-27-2004, 07:07 PM
A mage who has a source like this can trade with other mages or priests and sell them components for magical items, mystilca, pseudo magical elixirs, or even actual potions, hallucinatory mushrooms, rare flowers, crystals from a sacred grove.... I can go on :P

Source Trade Routes are described as small trading guilds (of 0 level). having them, hardly makes the elves plutocrats and money grubbers and it does not equate to a guild that sells timber outside of the elven woods.

I too am of the opinion that guilds in elven lands should only exist under special circumstances. Eg in Coullabhie they are only allowed in 2 provinces, in khinasi lands, they are not actual guilds, Sielwode and Lluabright have none, if memory serves, and Fhileraene is too kind with human tresspassers :P.... Oh, Allanlaigh of Cwwmbh Bhein (whatever.... the vos elven realm) is also a softy :)

Trithemius
01-28-2004, 06:23 PM
Michael Romes:

> But they do not sell those valuable goods.



Exactly. Hard to be a plutocrat if you aren`t going to sell anything.



> But even elven musical instruments would be highly sought in other lands so

> I do not understand that some want to see sidhelien realms totally free

> of guild holdings.



I do not see the sale of the odd mastercrafted lute or harp as being on the

same scale as the trade represented by the trade route mechanic.



I would prefer to see such rare and expensive gifts done on a case by case

basis. I do not see a great demand for 2,000 gp harps in most mortal realms; I

do not see the sidhe lining up to produce them even if such a demand did exist.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

-----------------------------------------------------

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

Trithemius
01-28-2004, 06:23 PM
Gary:

> Not to mention that elves have access to arcane magics which would

> likely make them the premier magic item manufacturers of Cerilia.

> (The variousthe temples might compete with them in this regard to

> a certain extent.)



This assumes that the sidhe want to arm their former enemies, and that mortals

wish to make use of queer sidhe artifacts. I am not entirely sure that this is

entirely common.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

-----------------------------------------------------

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

Trithemius
01-28-2004, 06:23 PM
A dark:

> A mage who has a source like this can trade with other mages or priests

> and sell them components for magical items, mystilca, pseudo magical

> elixirs, or even actual potions, hallucinatory mushrooms, rare flowers,

> crystals from a sacred grove.... I can go on :P



I see. These routes are going to link to other mage`s sources then? Or are we

assuming a vast number of mages in Cerilia, contrary to the previously

established nature of the setting? Magical item trading might be feasible in

the magic-rich Forgotten Realms, I do not think this is the same for Cerilia.



I certainly oppose the idea of rare magical components becoming "just another

commodity". I feel that my incredibly simplistic rules for income from sources

(mentioned earlier) can represent lesser magicians approaching the source-

holder for "foraging rights" as it were.



In games I have overseen, I have had PC mages actively go out in search of

clients to make magical items for, and they have made a good deal of money, at

the cost of time (domain actions) and energy (RPs). I never saw any use in

assuming that a trade-route worth of magical items flowed out of every large

source in Cerilia. Magical items are too interesting to be treated so banally.



> Source Trade Routes are described as small trading guilds (of 0 level).

> having them, hardly makes the elves plutocrats and money grubbers and it

> does not equate to a guild that sells timber outside of the elven

> woods.



I do not think that the sidhe would do this. Except possibly in rare cases,

such as those you have mentioned.



I theorise that perhaps the sidhe should gain some greater income from sources

(possibly they should earn holding-based income like guilds?) to represent the

use of magic in sidhelien economic activity. It mentions that sidhe make casual

use of magic everyday, likening it to the use of water-wheels by mortals. I *do

not*, however, think that this means that the sidhe have magical water-wheels.

I hope you see the distinction I am trying to make.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

-----------------------------------------------------

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

kgauck
01-28-2004, 06:23 PM
I have long since abandoned the idea that every little trade guild trades

with every other little guild. Instead, I prefer that trade networks trade

with trade networks, or to put it another way, the realm of Stjordvik

Traders trades with the Boeruine Trading Guild. The value of trade is

limited by total number of holdings. The income of trade is 1/3 the value

of trading holdings per season. No one trades in winter.



So if your guilder has 15 levels of holdings trading, you get 5 GB of income

per season three times per year.



Generally, all trade goes through a central trade city on your end, to a

central trade city on the other end. If you share central trade cities,

your trade can`t be interdicted externally. Both Three Trees Traders and

Stjordvik Traders base themselves out of Hollingholmen. Nearly all external

trade among Rjurik in the Highlands and the Taelshore passes through

Hollingholmen. Stjordvik Traders has bulk and break points at Nolien

(Dhoesone), Tariene (Boeruine), Leivika (Svinik), and Hollingholmen.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

Trithemius
01-28-2004, 06:23 PM
Kenneth:

> I have long since abandoned the idea that every little trade guild

> trades with every other little guild. Instead, I prefer that trade

> networks trade with trade networks, or to put it another way, the

> realm of Stjordvik Traders trades with the Boeruine Trading Guild.

> The value of trade is limited by total number of holdings. The

> income of trade is 1/3 the value of trading holdings per season.

> No one trades in winter.



John H. and I decided for our (aborted, but restarted by him) PBeM to use a

system of hierarchically ranked `trade centres`, with routes linking them.

These routes were rated with a trade potential (usualy between 5-15) and

guilder-types could create "trade holdings" to represent centralised control

over a certain route.



Come to think of it, this system probably arose from various conversations

that Kenneth and I had off-list a year or so ago...

Ring any bells Kenneth?



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

-----------------------------------------------------

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

kgauck
01-28-2004, 06:23 PM
----- Original Message -----

From: "John Machin" <trithemiuS@PARADISE.NET.NZ>

Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 4:04 AM



> Come to think of it, this system probably arose from various

> conversations that Kenneth and I had off-list a year or so ago...

> Ring any bells Kenneth?



Yes, it reflects my interest in place theory. I am sure I discussed it with

you, John, off-list, but I also posted the idea to the list on Tuesday, May

29, 2001 under the subject "Trade Routes pt 2".



My current system still relies on trade occuring through key points. Now

instead of tracking these trade zones geographically, I use the trade realms

themselves to define what the zone looks like.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

Trithemius
01-29-2004, 08:44 AM
Quoting Kenneth Gauck <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>:

> Yes, it reflects my interest in place theory. I am sure I discussed it

> with you, John, off-list, but I also posted the idea to the list on

> Tuesday, May 29, 2001 under the subject "Trade Routes pt 2".



That must have been during my "BR-L downtime". ;)



> My current system still relies on trade occuring through key points.

> Now instead of tracking these trade zones geographically, I use the

> trade realms themselves to define what the zone looks like.



Do you find you need to do a lot of recalculating with this method?



--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

-----------------------------------------------------

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

kgauck
01-29-2004, 08:44 AM
----- Original Message -----

From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>

Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 10:11 PM





> Do you find you need to do a lot of recalculating with this method?



No, but I control all the NPC guild realms, so trade is pretty stable. If

it were used in a PBeM, players could arrange shifting trade arrangements

every turn, but then the hardest part is deciding whether both sides have

the availble holdings, then you just figure income based on how many

holdings are engaged in trade. Its no more difficult than taking contested

holdings into account.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com