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camelotcrusade
01-05-2004, 12:35 AM
Hi everyone,

As you know if you've read my other posts, I'm playing that old PC game, the Gorgon's alliance. It inspired me to start up a BR campaign and I'm gearing up for it.

In the game the regents and lieutenants get experience for performing domain actions successfully. Is this something unique to the game, or should my PC regents or lieutentants be getting XP for domain actions, too? I couldn't find a chart in the d20 reference that I downloaded, so I thought I would ask here what you all do.

Do your PCs just experience through adventuring, or do you award for domain actions?

thanks!

Don E
01-05-2004, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by camelotcrusade@Jan 5 2004, 01:35 AM
Hi everyone,

As you know if you've read my other posts, I'm playing that old PC game, the Gorgon's alliance. It inspired me to start up a BR campaign and I'm gearing up for it.

In the game the regents and lieutenants get experience for performing domain actions successfully. Is this something unique to the game, or should my PC regents or lieutentants be getting XP for domain actions, too? I couldn't find a chart in the d20 reference that I downloaded, so I thought I would ask here what you all do.

Do your PCs just experience through adventuring, or do you award for domain actions?

thanks!
Hi,

I believe many (if not most) games that are heavy on domain level play feature some mechanism for rewarding characters XP for the domain actions they perform. There is a short paragraph on the subject on page 150 in the D20 conversion.

Some previous discussion on the topic can be found at
http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...t=ST&f=2&t=2070 (http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2070)
and (long thread, and mixed with a lot of other stuff)
http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...=ST&f=36&t=1876 (http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=1876)
There are most likely other old threads that somebody can point out to you.

Personally I prefer the PCs getting the majority of their experience through adventures, with some gained from the completion of important domain actions. What constitutes as an important domain action is of course a matter of taste. One example could be a espionage action that allows the players to uncover who was behind the assassination of an important person at the court.

Cheers,
Don E

camelotcrusade
01-05-2004, 04:14 AM
Thank you very much for the reply, I will check it out. I hope somebody can dig up the adventure editor for me to use with my computer game, too!

camelotcrusade

Lee
01-05-2004, 09:49 PM
In a message dated 1/4/04 8:07:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,

brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:



<< Is this something unique to the game, or should my PC regents or

lieutentants be getting XP for domain actions, too? I couldn&#39;t find a chart in the

d20 reference that I downloaded, so I thought I would ask here what you all

do. Do your PCs just experience through adventuring, or do you award for

domain actions?thanks&#33; >>



I do not. I prefer to give RP or other rewards for domain actions, and XP

only for adventuring.



Lee.

Anakin_Miller
01-05-2004, 10:35 PM
Then how do you explain a regent gaining level if he is not an adventurer?



I don`t see someone like the Duchess of Brosengae racing off to adventure

and fight Trolls in the mountains. She would have men at arms and champions

to do that.



3e D&D made a point to award XP for non combat encounters.



You should gain XP for successfully ruling and maintaing a domain not just

adventuring.



-Anakin Miller



----- Original Message -----

From: "Lee Hanna" <LeeHa1854@AOL.COM>

To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>

Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 4:05 PM

Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Experience For Domain Actions? [2#2182]





> In a message dated 1/4/04 8:07:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

>

> << Is this something unique to the game, or should my PC regents or

> lieutentants be getting XP for domain actions, too? I couldn&#39;t find a

chart in the

> d20 reference that I downloaded, so I thought I would ask here what you

all

> do. Do your PCs just experience through adventuring, or do you award for

> domain actions?thanks&#33; >>

>

> I do not. I prefer to give RP or other rewards for domain actions, and XP

> only for adventuring.

>

> Lee.

>

>



>

> Birthright-l Archives:

http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html

>

>

>

Elijah
01-06-2004, 12:37 AM
I dunno about 3e as I&#39;m strictly playing 2e but I think XP can be awarded for non-combat actions, like roleplaying. If a player handled diplomacy or a random event or some other domain action in which he put in effort to roleplay, he should be rewarded for it. As this is a roleplaying game, roleplaying should be rewarded, right? :)

geeman
01-06-2004, 03:32 AM
At 01:37 AM 1/6/2004 +0100, Elijah wrote:



>I dunno about 3e as I`m strictly playing 2e but I think XP can be awarded

>for non-combat actions, like roleplaying. If a player handled diplomacy or

>a random event or some other domain action in which he put in effort to

>roleplay, he should be rewarded for it. As this is a roleplaying game,

>roleplaying should be rewarded, right? :)



I absolutely agree. I keep a tally of players` good role-playing; witty

dialogue, smart moves that aid the action, good descriptions, etc. all get

a little hash mark that later turns into a CR award based on their

character level. Particularly good role-playing (or just particularly good

play) can sometimes earn two hash marks, and from time to time I have noted

particularly bad play by taking away hash marks.



When awarding XP I use the following formula as a guideline to determine

the role-playing award. Add the number of hash marks to the character

level of the PC and subtract the number of encounters in the adventure to

get a CR value. That is, if a player with a 5th level PC got three hash

marks in an adventure that had four encounters he would get 3 (hash marks)

+ 5 (character level) - 4 (encounters) = CR 4 award. I then divide this

award by 4 since the CR system assumes four characters in the party and

this is an individual award, so the PC would get 250 XP for role-playing in

that adventure.



Because of the steps in the CR award table really good, consistent play can

sometimes rival or exceed that of encounters--depending on the nature of

the adventure, of course. In the same adventure a player who got six hash

marks would get 6 + 5 - 4 = CR 7 award for 750 XP, while his share of four

CR 4 encounters would be 1,500 XP. (Actually, I always award 1/4 the XP

suggested in the DMG since I just find that a much more comfortable pace of

levelling characters (and prefer a low level campaign anyway) so in the

previous example a character IMC would actually earn 500XP for his

encounters and 750 for good role-playing)



I usually play domain actions out as adventures, so generally I`m in favor

of XP awards for domain actions since I see them as just a way of resolving

adventure level results, so XP awards are built in, but if one just

determined the results of the domain actions with a die roll one could

still award role-playing using the same formula as that above, assuming a

certain number of encounters based on the difficulty of the action. Say 1

encounter per 5 points of difficulty. PCs should get XP for domain level

actions, but they should get more XP for domain level actions that players

actually involve themselves in, so depending on the amount of actual

role-playing they do such a system could help inject more role-playing into

the domain level, which can easily be a distraction otherwise.



Gary

camelotcrusade
01-06-2004, 01:51 PM
EDIT: Doh, my spaces aren&#39;t working. Anybody know how I can get them to show up? It&#39;s nicely spaced in my box before I submit it...

If I can&#39;t fix it, then assume the first # is for fighters, the second for priests, the 3rd for thieves, and the 4th for wizard characters.
----
Finally, something to contribute&#33; It&#39;s not exactly appropriate to 3e, but I found the computer game&#39;s system for rewarding xp for domain actions and will post it here. Don&#39;t shoot the messenger, but I think it&#39;s interesting to see:

For the purpose of this table, Bards are considered Thieves, Paladins as fighters, and Rangers as fighters

Domain Action Fighter Priest Thief Wizard

Agitate 500 1,000 1,000 1,000
Build Road 50 50 50 50
Build Trde Rte 500 500 3,000 500
Contest Guild 500 500 2,000 500
Law 2,000 500 500 500
Source 500 500 500 2,000
Temple 500 2,000 500 500
Create Guild 500 500 2,000 500
Law 2,000 500 500 500
Source 500 500 500 2,000
Temple 500 2,000 500 500

Declare War 1,000 500 500 500

Diplomacy
Per. Alliance 2,000 2,000 2,000 2,000
Full Alliance 4,000 4,000 4,000 4,000
Vassalage 10,000 10,000 10,000 10,000

Espionage
Spy 500 500 1000 500
Assassinate 500 500 1000 500

Forge Ley Line 500 500 500 2,000

Investiture 5,000 5,000 5,000 5,000

Realm Spell 1,000 x Spell Level

Rule
Province 1,000 x New Level
Guild Holding 500 x New Level (but Thieves 1,000 x New Level)
Law Holding 500 x New Level (but Fighters 1,000 x New Level)
Source Hold. 500 x New Level (but Wizards 1,000 x New Level)
Temple Hold. 500 x New Level (but Priests 1,000 x New Level)

Multiclass characters get their appropriate bonus.
------
I can say from experience that in the game it ends up leveling everyone up to the same playing field rather quickly (about level 7-9) and after you hit level 10 or so the amounts don&#39;t matter as much (particularly using 2nd edition xp tables).

I think this resource is interesting because it suggests the idea of giving bonuses for classes acting "as a class should" and rewarding you accordingly. What do you guys think about that idea? I may use the chart in the playtest guide for 3, but award bonuses when PCs work on their areas of specialty. It could also help you level up a low-ranking lieutenant...

kgauck
01-06-2004, 02:10 PM
If the nature of one`s campaign is to play a lot of political scenarios,

expository scenarios (eg. players visit Halskapa, learn the history,

politics, and important characters in the realm), and scenarios based on

realm turns, it can be hard to get very much combat in. The realm turns are

the easiest to add combat to (many involve potential confrontations) but

again the stakes of such confrontaions are often much higher than the actual

combat risk. Take a recent occurance of a Monsters of Brigandage. I placed

a family of seven ogres (two brothers and their families) in Hollenvik as

one of several random events. They players set off wanting to determine if

the ogres were politically hostile or just causing trouble because they have

over-hunted their range and were just preying on local livestock. Well, had

the ogres just needed fresh hunting grounds, the players would have arranged

parley and told the ogres where they could hunt undisturbed. They would

treat the adventure as though the ogres were a band of the Rykar tribe of

nomadic Rjurik. Had the ogres been politically hostile and from a foreign

realm, they would have been treated as enemies and either defeated or

co-opted, depending the realm and the loyalty of the ogres. In this case

the ogres were taking revenge on the town of Stoer for the murder of one of

their kinsmen. The party arrives in Stoer, and quickly finds out the

sheriff and his men killed a young male ogre several weeks ago. He had been

caught stealing cattle. They party wants to settle the matter without

outright defeat of the ogres, because you never know when you will encounter

people you have met befoe and parted on goods terms with. Friendly ogres

could be valuable. On the other hand, the ogres are in the wrong (by Rjurik

law) in pursuing this feud. The young ogre was killed in a raid, and his

family is not entitled to wergild (man-price). Now the ogres must be

convinced and agree to leave Stoer in peace. So the players go out hunting

the ogres, who don`t want to be found and are canny in the wilderness.

Eventually the PC druid ended up casting a Commune with Nature spell to

locate the ogres, a spell I complicated by having the spell summon a hostile

fey to answer the druid. The boogie in question knew the location of the

ogres but just didn`t want to tell the druid anything, yet was summoned by

the spell and was compelled by the spell to remain summoned until he told.

This just made the boogie man more angry. First the boogie tried to make

the party go away so the boogie could either try and out wait the summoning

or have his "curse` lifted by an ally. He tried to become invisible, played

tricks on the party and was otherwise a nusance. The ranger, Herthbjorn,

captured the boogie as it attempted to trip him, and put the boogie into a

deeper form of compulsion. Fey hate to be prisoners, and many will go to

great lengths to gain their freedom, including granting "wishes" by casting

fey magic (not true wishes). But this boogie was still insistant upon

refusing to provide the location of the ogres ... unless the ranger could

answer a riddle. http://www.catb.org/~esr/riddle-poems.html



The boogie gave the following riddle, "A tree of many branches, my forest in

flight, when captured, I become an ornament bright." Eventually the players

figured out the answer was a feather, and the boogie answered the druid`s

question and revealed the location of the ogres. Challenge rating of 3 for

a party of 5.



The players arrived at the location given them, an ogre camp, and find fresh

tracks, the follow and find the ogres passing around a bucket of water at a

pond. Neither group is surprised, and the eorl of Hollenvik, Cuthbeort the

ironarm, announced he is there to settle the matter of the feud between the

ogres and the town of Stoer. The two ogre brothers get angry, one of the

female ogres cries out in pain. They demand that the murderers pay for the

death of their son/nephew. It is their custom to demand the same weight in

human flesh as the ogre who was killed. In the meantime, they respect no

proptery rights among the murderers. The eorl Cuthbeort tells them that as

their kinsmen died on a raid stealing cattle, they have no rights to

compensation as he was not murdered, only killed. (Murder required the

killed be innocent.) Neither side is willing to abide bye the law of the

other side, so Cuthbeort declares that in such cases, single combat must

settle the question once and for all. The ogres agree to these terms.

Cuthbeort suggests rowing out to an island on the coast of Hollenvik for

single combat in the Rjurik tradition. The ogres have no intention going

across water to settle this matter. Both agree to duel at this present

location. The ogres agree that either the death of Cuthbeort or his victory

will satisfy their feud. They mark out an area that the combatants must

remain inside or forfit. The dead ogre`s uncle, the older of the brothers

and a 5th level fighter, will fight against Cuthbeort. The ogre tries to

disarm, trip, and bull rush Cuthbeort. These will make use of his much

superior Strength (of 24, BTW) and size. Cuthbeort is basically counting on

his much higher BAB and hp (Arisocrat 10/Fighter 4) and his Improved

Critical. After a few knockdowns and getting an ogre power attack in the

prone possition, and loosing his sword twice (both times he was able to

recover it in the dueling area) Cuthbeort got the two criticals he needed to

reduce the ogre`s wounds to below zero (the ogre had 79 hp and 18 wounds)

and claimed victory. A bit of healing magic was used to get the defeated

ogre on his feat again. Cuthbeort declared that if the ogres continued the

feud after their defeat, he would regard them as outlaws in his realm and

would once again hunt them down as such. He successfuly implied (innuendo)

that next time there would be no single combat, just an all out attack. The

ogres agreed that the matter was settled and were impressed by Cuthbeort`s

prowess and compassion.



This is what passes for a combat oriented advenure in my campiagn. Two

encounters, one fight involving a single character. Now we do run up and

make war against the Blood Skull barony from time to time, and those are

mostly combat, with some tactical problem solving and survival skills thrown

in. But, most of the time, adventures can be nearly combat free, full of

gather information checks, diplomacy, and figuring out who is up to what.



In the above description, the CR for the boogie was 3, insignificant for a

party of five whose average level is 15, and all of the ogres together is a

CR of 8, enough to be worth 375 xp for the party, and the lead ogre a CR of

7 for 350 xp for Cuthbeort. Instead, I went with a mission goal and

assigned 1000xp apeice and gave Cuthbeort a RP plus the party has the

intangible benefit of some ogres who will regard them as fair and worthy

(although not friendly).



Typically, if a Domain Action is played out, I`ll give a mission award based

on what is at stake. I`ve use 500-2000 xp for total mission awards for

lower level characters (who are confronting less powerful adversaries) and

1000-3000 xp for higher level characters. Typically, I don`t give standard

combat awards if I am giving mission awards, but I have given combat awards

out on top of mission awards when the PC`s do little side encounters during

a larger mission (eg. the arrive in a town to find out what role the

Stjordvik Traders had in the corruption of a royal judge, find out the town

children are being abuducted by a wierd hermit and go save the children

before uncovering the corrution mission). The extra encounter has to be

unrelated to main mission and the PC`s need to have the option of passing it

up to advance the mission (the PC`s did not have to bother with the children

to uncover the corruption, in fact the delay risked making the central

mission more difficult) in order for me to assign standard awards for such

encounters. Encountering bandits on the road is not going to be an

opportunity for standard awards unless the PC`s did not have to confront

them and could have left them to their business, but chose to deal with the

bandits anyway.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

irdeggman
01-06-2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by camelotcrusade@Jan 6 2004, 08:51 AM
Declare War 1,000 500 500 500
Investiture 5,000 5,000 5,000 5,000
------
I can say from experience that in the game it ends up leveling everyone up to the same playing field rather quickly (about level 7-9) and after you hit level 10 or so the amounts don&#39;t matter as much (particularly using 2nd edition xp tables).

I think this resource is interesting because it suggests the idea of giving bonuses for classes acting "as a class should" and rewarding you accordingly. What do you guys think about that idea? I may use the chart in the playtest guide for 3, but award bonuses when PCs work on their areas of specialty. It could also help you level up a low-ranking lieutenant...


I would not award exp for declaring war since this doesn&#39;t accompish anything or overcome anything. A successfully waged war is another thing (i.e., exp for victory).

Also investiture is something that is not overcoming an obstacle.

How can you reward a character for playing like a class when he/she is multi-class or dual classed? This system would favor demi-humans since they are more likely to be multi-class while humans are very unlikely to be dual class (as I recall the 2nd ed rules were a 17 abililty score in the primary ability of the subsequent class and the character cannot advance in his first class anymore).

Also many of the things mentioned are really independent of class - like ruling for instance. A character can rule up a holding or he/she can rule an entire province there is no real difference in the domain action per se.

One of the many improvements made in 3/3.5 was the elimination of the flat exp number awards. Everything is scaled based on the challenge the situation presents.

MJH
01-06-2004, 05:50 PM
In my 3.0 game I assighn a CR = the base unmodified DC of the domain action -10. That way exp is related to the challenge rating. Exceptional successes yeilding RP as usual.

I hope that helps.

Lee
01-06-2004, 09:01 PM
I agree with the concept of awarding xp for non-combat encounters, just

not for domain actions that are settled by a die-roll and a little discussion,

per the domain-level rules. If I as DM work the whole thing up into an

adventure (combat or no), I will also take the trouble to assign CRs to

interrogations, attempts to make allies, and so on; as well as assigning "mission

accomplished" xp, not just combat (something I think 3e could have kept from 2e).

But, if it is a case of "I will attempt to Rule that holding, spending 4

GB and 3 RP, and I roll ... ," then I will not assign xp to any characters.

Really good die rolls or ideas will net them RP, or perhaps GB, or some other

in-game reward.

For me this is a case of fairness, since my campaigns generally feature a

lot of non-regents, and only a few PC regents (if any). If I were to hand

out xp for something the one player might do in 10 minutes of game time, while

the others needed 2 or more sessions to pile up the same amount, it does not

seem fair.



Lee.



P.S. Ken`s ogre-feud and boggie-interrogation scenario sounds really well

done.