Why Hasn't The Gorgon Won Yet?

[Osprey]

Here's a topic to throw out to everyone:

Why hasn't the Gorgon conquered Anuire yet? What's stopping him?

Here's a few ideas that I've played with.

The Gorgon's armies are mighty, but are rarely capable of matching the combined might of even a third of Anuire's strength. IF we're only comparing the armies themselves, and assuming that the Gorgon doesn't personally lead his forces.

However, it's when the Gorgon steps in personally that balance is thrown out the window. In 2e he was bad...in the BRCS writeup, he's even worse. If we get real and give him a few epic feats and perhaps an epic item or two (which is reasonable, given his level, but not necessary; if he can't make 'em, maybe nobody can, so it's OK if no epic items).

Now, imagine a battlefield between the Gorgon's armies and the collective resistance: say, Mhoried, Elinie, Coeranys, and maybe some other allies (perhaps even elves of the Sielwode or Tuarheviel, or dwarves of Baruk-Azhik). Let's say the Anuireans, etc. even outnumber and outmatch the Gorgon's forces - not inconcievable if they're properly geared up for a big war, and throwing everything they've got to repulse the Gorgon.

Now, if the Gorgon's dwarven general is leading his armies, I bet the Mhor could outmatch him any day as a strategist. So could Aeric Boeruine and Gavin Tael, I'd guess. So in a field battle, they could probably succeed in defeating the Gorgon's armies.

Now, imagine the battle raging, the heroic regents are leading their armies and driving back the Gorgon&#39;s hordes, victory is in sight, and then...<POOF&#33;> In teleports the Gorgon himself in the midst of our heroes, armed to the teeth and ready for bloodtheft. Our mighty 10th-15th level "great heroes of Anuire" would be like mewling infants next to the Gorgon. Anyone checked out the DC on his Death Gaze? Once per round, anyone wtihin 30&#39; in his LOS makes a Fort save at DC 58 or dies&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; Which means everyone within 30&#39; of his frontal facing is dead, unless they&#39;re willing to fight blind (a Darkness spell or blindfolds might keep you alive from that) or have Death Ward in effect (which only lasts 1 round per caster level - means no battle-length spells; perhaps a divine Realm Spell could be devised for this very purpose&#33;).

So, let&#39;s say the heroes have somehow warded themselves against the Death Gaze. Now they&#39;ve got to deal with the legendary monster himself, who&#39;s got Lifender to kick their butts with. Yikes&#33; That, plus all of the prep spells he would certainly have cast on himself before teleporting in (haste, stoneskin, protection form arrows, shield, displacement, fire shield, mirror image, globe of invulnerability, maybe mind blank...) means the Gorgon is one unstoppable fighting machine. You do the math. Could any non-epic characters really stand up to him for more than a round or two? I seriously doubt it.

Net result: The Gorgon could freely stomp around the battlefield and kill off the regent leaders one by one, bloodthefting them and depriving the armies of their spirit and leadership. And if the Anuireans kept fighting (some might, at first), well...watch the Gorgon start unleasing some fireballs, cones of cold, cloudkills, circles of death, chain lightning...and then following up with his death gaze and melee dominance (he&#39;d be virtually untouchable by common troops), he could easily decimate and route whole companies by himself. So all he&#39;d have to do is target the leading companies of resistance and crush them with shock tactics, and one by one the pockets of resistance would be crushed and broken.

And why wouldn&#39;t he do any of this? I can&#39;t think of a reason. He&#39;s an epic strategist (if there are any skills he&#39;d have at maximum levels, it would be Warcraft, Lead, and probably Intimidation) with genius+ intelligence, so he would certainly maximize all of his assets and abilities.

So you tell me: why hasn&#39;t the Gorgon, with capabilities like this, won every major battle he&#39;s fought? And what could stop him from conquering all of Anuire if he really wanted to?

The only answer I&#39;ve found satisfying is that he really has no desire to conquer Anuire. He&#39;s in it for the blood. Harvesting bloodlines is his real goal, and his generational rampages are in fact excellent means of getting the targeted regents to come out on the open field and be easy targets for him...and to waste their resources and lose a generation of resources and development, and keep Anuire fractured and stagnant if they start getting too advanced and unified. I imagine that this state of chaos and inter-realm strife is exactly how the Gorgon likes Anuire; it makes his harvesting easier, and keeps his own lands fairly secure.

Ultimately, I think the Gorgon sees his quest for blood power as a quest for godhood. Bloodlines are the power of the gods, and none knows this better than Raesene. So wouldn&#39;t there come a point at which all that blood power would reach critical mass, and the ascension to godhood could take place? It&#39;s already hinted at the Gorgon may already have achieved demigod status (divine rank 0 or 1?) and can grant some minor spells to followers. But it seems he&#39;s really just a proxy of Azrai at this point, which probably galls him to no end. I&#39;d guess he really hopes to ascend as the replacement of Azrai - heheh, imagine him gaining that lesser god status. I reckon the first piece of agenda would be to eliminate his rivals, Belinik and Kreisha, and replace them as a sole god of evil. Ah, deicide...do you think the gods could be "bloodthefted?" How would they like the bite of tighmaevriel, do you think? Heh heh heh...

-Osprey

[Ariadne]

Simple question. He hasn&#39;t won yet, because there would be no story left, if he had... ;)

Your other arguments make it naturally really hard to believe... :D

[kgauck]

This topic came up last year (Dec 2002) under the subject Strongest Army

[2#1139]. Its certainly worth looking at for those aiming to avoid

repeating old ground.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[CMonkey]

Originally posted by kgauck@Nov 26 2003, 07:27 PM
This topic came up last year (Dec 2002) under the subject Strongest Army

[2#1139]. Its certainly worth looking at for those aiming to avoid

repeating old ground.


Is that a link?

CM.

[Raesene Andu]

The reason the Gorgon hasn&#39;t conquered all of Anuire yet is because he doesn&#39;t want to. He prefers to attack occassionally and kill a few scions every generation (bloodtheft) than wipe everyone out and rule a land devoid of all the powerful bloodlines.

[Arjan]

Originally posted by CMonkey+Nov 26 2003, 08:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CMonkey @ Nov 26 2003, 08:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--kgauck@Nov 26 2003, 07:27 PM
This topic came up last year (Dec 2002) under the subject Strongest Army

[2#1139]. Its certainly worth looking at for those aiming to avoid

repeating old ground.


Is that a link?

CM. [/b][/quote]
the link is:
http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...t=ST&f=2&t=1139 (http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=1139)


Arjan

[Mr.Froggatt]

Osprey - it seems like you&#39;ve done a pretty good job of answering your own question there. Most of my adventures are pretty low level, so I&#39;ve never really thought about it. But I like your reasoninging. Ariadne seems to have hit the nail on the head though&#33;

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by kgauck@Nov 26 2003, 08:27 PM
This topic came up last year (Dec 2002) under the subject Strongest Army [2#1139]. Its certainly worth looking at for those aiming to avoid repeating old ground.
So you&#39;re an "undead slayer" :D

See topic:
http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...t=ST&f=2&t=2117 (http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2117)

[RaspK_FOG]

Oh well, the others just had to say what I wanted to say... :(

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ariadne" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 8:05 AM





> So you`re an "undead slayer" :D



Except that I don`t think the topic has been done to death, I`d like to see

more work on this subject. I`d just like to avoid a simple re-hash of the

old which never gets around to saying anything new.



I see that Gary has produced a nice summary of the standard possitions.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Denakhan]

Hiya.

I think you&#39;re thinking in "meta-game" terms (re: thinking of "Rule X does this, and Rule Y does that, so Rule Z doesn&#39;t come into play" etc.).

How do I put this...3e can&#39;t handle "Epic Level", dispite WotC&#39;s attempt. A single d20 isn&#39;t enough of a range when you slap on +56...the d20 becomes pretty much pointless. In short, 3e "falls apart". So only taking into what can/can&#39;t happen by the rules as written, well, there is no reason why the Gorgon hasn&#39;t taken over (or any number of other significant bad guys).

If you look at it as a "what could happen, regardless of what the rules say", then you can easily see why the Gorgon doesn&#39;t wade into combat; too many uncertain factors. If you were using another game system, say, Rolemaster, GURPS, or HackMaster, then it could become much more obvious. In RM and HM at least, critical hits can kill. Period. HP total notwithstanding. Criticals in 3e are rather pathetic and predictable by comparison. You can crunch the numbers and in a worst case scenario say (just pulling a number out of the air here) that he could take 148hp damage in one hit...which isn&#39;t enough to kill him. Lots of damage, yes, but not a "poof you&#39;re dead" critical that other games can have.

Going back to purly 3e terms, I&#39;d say that the reason he doesn&#39;t do it is because he would have everyon against him...his "Good" enemies, and his "Evil" enemies would have a temporary reason to band together. The Gorgon vs. a trio of "good domains" is one thing; The Gorgon vs. a trio of "good domains", a pair of "evil domains" and three "neutral domains" is quite another. ;) The Gorgon knows that his enemies would band together to stop him if he took such blatant and in-your-face steps...so he tries to do it on the QT. :)

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Nov 26 2003, 11:50 AM
The only answer I&#39;ve found satisfying is that he really has no desire to conquer Anuire. He&#39;s in it for the blood. Harvesting bloodlines is his real goal, and his generational rampages are in fact excellent means of getting the targeted regents to come out on the open field and be easy targets for him...and to waste their resources and lose a generation of resources and development, and keep Anuire fractured and stagnant if they start getting too advanced and unified. I imagine that this state of chaos and inter-realm strife is exactly how the Gorgon likes Anuire; it makes his harvesting easier, and keeps his own lands fairly secure.

Ultimately, I think the Gorgon sees his quest for blood power as a quest for godhood. Bloodlines are the power of the gods, and none knows this better than Raesene. So wouldn&#39;t there come a point at which all that blood power would reach critical mass, and the ascension to godhood could take place? It&#39;s already hinted at the Gorgon may already have achieved demigod status (divine rank 0 or 1?) and can grant some minor spells to followers. But it seems he&#39;s really just a proxy of Azrai at this point, which probably galls him to no end. I&#39;d guess he really hopes to ascend as the replacement of Azrai - heheh, imagine him gaining that lesser god status. I reckon the first piece of agenda would be to eliminate his rivals, Belinik and Kreisha, and replace them as a sole god of evil. Ah, deicide...do you think the gods could be "bloodthefted?" How would they like the bite of tighmaevriel, do you think? Heh heh heh...

-Osprey
I actually totally disagree with this one. IMO the only reason the Gorgon hasn&#39;t or didn&#39;t ascend to godhood is the fact that he is too tied into the material possesions and can&#39;t give up his desire for the Iron Throne - the one thing that was denied him during his &#39;normal&#39; life, being the bastard child he was he had no legitimate claim to the throne, or couldn&#39;t make one due to the Roeles still being alive.

If he could give up is overwhelming drive to &#39;own&#39; Anuire and the throne then he could complete his transformation to godhood.

Now for the &#39;real reason&#39; why - it is one of those mysteries that was left to the indivudal DMs to intepret as they saw fit to fit into their own story line. I also tend to agree with Ariadne on if he conquers Anuire then the rest is well anti-climatic after all isn&#39;t it? That was one of the problems I had with the original Birthright game design - it had a built in ending. Either the Gorgon won or he was defeated, once that happened the game is mostly over - the rest is just filler.

[RaspK_FOG]

I am currently rereading (and finishing) "the Falcon and the Wolf", in which Richard Baker plainly has the Gorgon say such thinks that prove he is only interested in unbalancing the surrounding lands constantly and getting power one piece after the other: "I do very few things only because they gratify me. I bear Mhoried no particular malice, at least no more than any other Anuirean state. Mhoried is to be destroyed because it is one of a handful of linchpins, critical powers that hold Anuire together. And even more importantly than that, Mhoried is to be destroyed because it is necessary for Ghoere’s elevation."
"I elevate Ghoere not for Tuorel’s sake, but for my own. I will build him into a great power, a warlord so strong he will dare to claim the Iron Throne. This will lead to an inevitable conflict between Ghoere and his supporters on the one hand, and those who can resist him on the other. In a year or two, all of Anuire will be immersed in the greatest war since Michael set out to claim his throne. This will be to my advantage."
"Allow the Wolf of Ghoere to slay the young Mhor and claim his bloodline and kingdom. In a year or two, when the time is right, I shall call upon Tuorel and absorb both the Mhoried and Tuorel bloodlines."

[bulletmagnet]

I&#39;d like to think there is a sort of "Darth Vader" mentality going on inside the Gorgon&#39;s mind. Is he evil,most certantly,however think for a second what if there is still some semblance of good left in him and sometimes he longs for or misses the old him.I mostly agree with iregg and disagree with ospeys&#39;s take on why.I like to think of things in more in a deeper spiriualy motivated world.Rather than a straight up "kill em all" mentality which seems to be prevelant on this forum.

[Osprey]

I&#39;d like to think there is a sort of "Darth Vader" mentality going on inside the Gorgon&#39;s mind. Is he evil,most certantly,however think for a second what if there is still some semblance of good left in him and sometimes he longs for or misses the old him.I mostly agree with iregg and disagree with ospeys&#39;s take on why.I like to think of things in more in a deeper spiriualy motivated world.Rather than a straight up "kill em all" mentality which seems to be prevelant on this forum.

Along those lines, but giving the Gorgon less personal credit for having any shreds of goodness himself, is that Michael Roele&#39;s spirit still haunts him. A friend of mine suggested that if the Gorgon did bloodtheft Michael, imagine if Michale&#39;s bloodline was so strong that the Gorgon&#39;s blood simply couldn&#39;t fully absorb it. So Michael Roele&#39;s voice is like a ghost in his his mind, the maddening voice of conscience that the Raesene had silenced within himself long ago. Now, for the last 500 years, this voice has been there, even giving him occasional urges to be...merciful, or kind, or happy...and when his thoughts turn toward conquering Anuire, the land that should have been ripe for the picking for 5 centuries now, then the voice becomes distracting to the point of madness. In fact, Raesene may now be going mad, and the more he tries to focus on his conquest, the faster his descent into that pit of darkness, that doom of immortals...

[bulletmagnet]

Along those lines, but giving the Gorgon less personal credit for having any shreds of goodness himself, is that Michael Roele&#39;s spirit still haunts him. A friend of mine suggested that if the Gorgon did bloodtheft Michael, imagine if Michale&#39;s bloodline was so strong that the Gorgon&#39;s blood simply couldn&#39;t fully absorb it. So Michael Roele&#39;s voice is like a ghost in his his mind, the maddening voice of conscience that the Raesene had silenced within himself long ago. Now, for the last 500 years, this voice has been there, even giving him occasional urges to be...merciful, or kind, or happy...and when his thoughts turn toward conquering Anuire, the land that should have been ripe for the picking for 5 centuries now, then the voice becomes distracting to the point of madness. In fact, Raesene may now be going mad, and the more he tries to focus on his conquest, the faster his descent into that pit of darkness, that doom of immortals...

This is more in line with why anuire hasnt been anilhiated yet. Lets not forget that there are others also in the mix that the gorgon must keep his eye on i.e white wich,magian,etc..

[sebastol_enlien]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Mar 17 2004, 03:53 AM
I am currently rereading (and finishing) "the Falcon and the Wolf", in which Richard Baker plainly has the Gorgon say such thinks that prove he is only interested in unbalancing the surrounding lands constantly and getting power one piece after the other: "I do very few things only because they gratify me. I bear Mhoried no particular malice, at least no more than any other Anuirean state. Mhoried is to be destroyed because it is one of a handful of linchpins, critical powers that hold Anuire together. And even more importantly than that, Mhoried is to be destroyed because it is necessary for Ghoere’s elevation."
"I elevate Ghoere not for Tuorel’s sake, but for my own. I will build him into a great power, a warlord so strong he will dare to claim the Iron Throne. This will lead to an inevitable conflict between Ghoere and his supporters on the one hand, and those who can resist him on the other. In a year or two, all of Anuire will be immersed in the greatest war since Michael set out to claim his throne. This will be to my advantage."
"Allow the Wolf of Ghoere to slay the young Mhor and claim his bloodline and kingdom. In a year or two, when the time is right, I shall call upon Tuorel and absorb both the Mhoried and Tuorel bloodlines."

Sorry for the abrupt yank. But the topic for this series of post is "Why Hasn&#39;t The Gorgon Won Yet?"

So here&#39;s my humble two cents:

The Gorgon, being the super-uber villian that he is, most likely has the long life blood ability as a great ability. So he can take his sweet time taking over Anuire, like cat toying with her mouse before biting it off.

If the Gorgon had the long life blood ability as a major ability. That would mean he has aged the equivalent of only twenty years...

But

What if the Gorgon had the long life blood ability only as a minor ability? That would mean, that after half a millenia, that Gorgon might be driven to finally take the Iron Throne; because he&#39;s becoming old. He&#39;ll want the Iron Throne for all the mystical abilities that the throne supposed grants to the invested regent that sits upon it right?

And if you follow the exact meta-plot of the "core" rulebook for Birthright, then well, your PCs will be living in an era where the Gorgon is seriously contemplating taking over all of Anuire for all wouldn&#39;t it?

That&#39;s where the classic D&D adventures of seemingly underpowered heros beating the odds and defeating the villian&#33;

Because really, from a writers point of view, why else would you place the setting of the game at precisely half a millenia after the fall of the original empire? Otherwise why not 300 years or 600 years after the fall?

Then again, maybe my imagination is just running a little wild just now :D

[dekar]

i&#39;m new here but i thought i would give my opinion on why the gorgon hasn&#39;t won yet. throughout the entire historical writings of the boxed set and "blood enemies" there a subtle hints that the gorgons power is only consolidated in his home territory. these are only theories but hey they could make some pretty interesting reasons why he hasn&#39;t left and destroyed all of the world. 1) he maybe somehow trying to figure out how to leave his domain without losing his powers (he has some levels of wizard and he holds dominion over all the lay lines in his kingdom. maybe he is trying to find a magical way around it.) 2) he might fear the the other awhnsheilen will rise up against him ( i personally would like to see the raven and the gorgon go at it&#33;) 3) he might just be working on a way to be a god (hey its good to be a god&#33;)


these are just added theories to already many. I personally agree that he just is biding his time and waiting for the right moment to strike after all he can wait for all erternity.

well anyway thanks for allowing me to post my opinion.....whoa what about a Rhoube Manslayer lead elven army against the gorgons crown now that would be a cool battle.

[Mark_Aurel]

The Ruins of Empire describes how the walls of Kal-Saitharak &#39;hum with confined power&#39; or some such. As powerful as the Gorgon is in his place of power, he may not be elsewhere.

Historically, while the Empire still existed, the Gorgon&#39;s forces were too weak to conquer. When Michael Roele died at the Gorgon&#39;s hands, it may be that the effect was that the Gorgon&#39;s bloodline and power was somehow anchored to his home.

I think that&#39;s the best way of reunifying several ideas. On the one hand, the Gorgon can&#39;t go out himself and beat everyone up. On the other hand, no coalition of armies could conquer his lands unless they brought along some epic heroes. Since his armies aren&#39;t strong enough to straight up conquer everything, the Gorgon has to rely a lot on intrigues and deceit rather than blunt force, and he had to do so even more so back during the Empire just to survive.

Essentially, the Gorgon would be in a tantalizing situation - for centuries, he&#39;s had the power to conquer Anuire, but not the ability to use that power.

If I were to write up how to reflect that idea in game mechanics, I&#39;d say the Gorgon loses his bloodline, bloodline abilities, and all abilities reliant upon those when he travels beyond Kal-Saitharak. That would include spellcasting. As a further flavorful element, I might rule that any items created or spells cast by the Gorgon become inert as well, except realm spell. That&#39;d leave him reliant upon minion spellcasters for many purposes.

[Amaranth]

The Gorgon hasn&#39;t won yet probably because he couldn&#39;t win the war if he started one. Nothing would make the Anuireans unite together faster than an organized threat from The Gorgon. Also, the elves and dwarves, who live uncomfortably close to his realm, would also join the fray. I doubt Manslayer would stand by and let Tuarhievel be overrun by big G, so he would probably ally with the resistance, too.

The Gorgon is certainly a mighty opponent, but he could not win a war against a united Anuire/Elven Empire.

[Osprey]

The Gorgon is certainly a mighty opponent, but he could not win a war against a united Anuire/Elven Empire.

While normally I favor story/flavour over mechanics, the 3.x mechanics of the Gorgon scream of his personal dominance over anyone or anything he might meet, short of some DM fiat such as Mark Aurel described (the Gorgon loses all his really mighty powers and magic beyond his domain).

The united Elven/Anuirean forces would only be a real threat if they had enough heroic champions who would be willing to fight together. But would Rhuobhe and Co. ever side with the humans, for any reasons? I highly doubt it.

Mechaniocally, the big question is: just how many high-level heroes can the Anuireans, elves, and dwarves muster? Personally, I believe the elves would have quite a few tough, high-to-epic level champions and heros - enough to make the Gorgon consider them a real threat. Anuireans, on the other hand, just don&#39;t have the expertise if one is to believe Ruins of Empire, which is what the first post in this thread really pointed out - that the Gorgon could stomp out the champions, leaders, and regents of Anuire without much issue, and having them united on the battlefield might in some ways just save him a lot of trouble, as he could get them all in short order and have all of their armies crumble without their lords and champions.

One thing I&#39;ve decided for my own campaign is this: regardless of whatever powers he might possess, Teleport is right out. Once you let the Gorgon teleport, he is free to assassinate nearly any regent he wants at a whim - ensuring that none of them would ever become to strong. Only magically shielded realms, such as the elven forests, would be any proof against this. So I decided my Gorgon will be a sorcerer, not a wizard, as thematically better fits a warrior personality (intuitive magic). Even better, make him a low to mid-level sorcerer and Teleport isn&#39;t even an issue. Besides it makes room for actual Awnshegh monster levels along with Fighter levels, something completely missed in the BRCS version.

Osprey

[dekar]

I know when it comes to the Gorgon everybody has an opinion. As well as opinions I know every Birthright DM has a special place in there heart for Cerilia&#39;s black Prince.


I personally think that the whole idea that the Gorgon is this big bad evil guy which nobody could possibly defeat is a bad creative idea. Now i&#39;m not saying that the gorgon himself is a bad idea or that he is too strong but I personally think that for the hero&#39;s to think that he is completely unbeatable or to fear that if they get to strong he is going to pop out of nowhere to kill them is just wrong. Thats why I support possible ideas such as the Gorgon having an unsaid "achilles heel" or that he fears that if he tries anything his enemies will rise up against him. Everybody has a weakness and in my Birthright Campaign I played the Gorgon as having possible weaknesses that were not known but could be researched, and even researched were only "theories." It made the Gorgon less of a monster "not to deal with." However by making it a quest to find the gorgon&#39;s weakness, it made my characters want to deal with the Gorgon and be "hero&#39;s." My Players loved the idea of possible weapons to use against the Gorgon, and also the idea of defeating the Gorgon "possible but improbable" instead of "impossible" was a hell of alot more fun.


In my Campaign I made The Gorgon lose alot of his strengh (his bloodline strength) when he leaves Battlewaite. The reason for this is in "blood lines: abominations of cerilia" there was a theory that michael roele channeled alot of his strength in the land when Raesene struck the killing blow to michael. When Michael did this the Gorgon lost alot more power then he received. I took this idea and made it so that the Gorgon could use this grounded power while he was at or near battlewaite but when he would leave it would slowly lose his connection with him. However that didn&#39;t stop the Gorgon from trying to get this power for himself which he knew was his, but no matter what he did he couldn&#39;t fully harness this power. He tried using Domain spells and other spells (thats how I explained his wizard levels and why he had them) to see if some arcane magic could bring this power back to him but it did not work. I made this an Obsession with the Gorgon thats why he has not moved out farther then he has (there are many other reasons but I made that reason another one). In may Campaign I had the Hand of Azrai tell the Gorgon that the only way he could harness the energy he sought after, was by bringing the last decendant of the Roele&#39;s to Battlewaite and slay him on the same ground which he slew Michael. Now i know supposedly all the Roele&#39;s were all dead and gone but in my campaign i had one of my characters be the last decendant of the roele bloodline, even though he didn&#39;t know it. He was deinvested of course but the whole Campaign was loved by my players (not to mention i surprised the player who was playing the decendant). I think this idea made the whole campaign more dramatic to play and alot more fun. It also added more character to the Gorgon who I think has one of the best character backrounds I have ever read.

I think the following idea was good creative idea why the gorgon hasn&#39;t taken over anuire and all of cerilia. Also I think it makes the Gorgon something more then just and overly powerful character who comes into play just to kick butt.

[Rowan]

Sorry to resurrect such a long-dead thread, but I found it interesting when I was browsing. I"m sure there have been more recent discussions, but I haven't seen them yet.

Anyway, I really like Dekar's idea of Michael's bloodline grounding having effects very similar to what he suggested. There have been many good story ideas for why the Gorgon hasn't "won" yet, many so good it's really just a matter of which ones the DM wants to spin for his own current game. I had never really seen this idea before, though, and I love it.

After all, if I remember correctly, the novel covering Michael Roele (read it so long ago I don't even remember the name of it) seemed to me to strongly imply that he had grounded the bloodline, rather than the Gorgon absorbing it (as seems to be the more often assumed situation). And if, in grounding the bloodline, Roele formed a near-permanent prison on the Gorgon, it would explain a LOT.


As far as meta-game arguments for why the Gorgon hasn't done just as he wished, there are actually quite a few (though I do think rules tend to be too favorable to epic foes). The text sites any number of powerful awnsheghlien eager for the Gorgon's downfall who, if they teamed up or managed to release Raizhadik, could take him down or at least be a major threat to him. There are still other dragons, such as Tarazin the Grey, who could threaten the Gorgon.

The gods themselves could intervene through Miracle spells or even avatars to prevent his ultimate success--not endangering Aebrynis as much as coming fully to it to destroy Azrai, since the Gorgon is much less powerful than Azrai.

The Lost still may be around, and the Gorgon's lands would likely be very close to the Shadow World, with all those undead legions (as many units as a DM wants could be hiding in the caverns--I always figured they were at least as many standing in dusty, motionless ranks as there were living units). This makes the Cold Rider a threat, as well, should the Gorgon overextend himself.



As for non-evil heroes, without the gods' support or any change in game mechanics, it's ALMOST true that the Gorgon has no equal even against a full party of adventurers.

However, look closely at spells, and what spells have no saving throw or no Spell Resistance. Hist Spell Resistance could be overcome with great effort, but there are those that don't require it. Take a look at Conjuration/Summoning spells--not only the actual monster summoning, but the direct damaging ones and indirect effects. Even from the PHB, enough spellcasting effort can bring him down, even if he's prepared. Catch him off-guard, and you can really nail him.

Here's why the Gorgon would fear an elven realm--one using only PHB spells: 1. powerful monster summoning spells (eladrins, elementals, other outsiders); 2. 100 elves with Acid Arrow could kill him in 10 rounds; 3. Force Cage, then Fire at Will with Acid Fog, Acid Arrow, Radiant Weapon Arrowheads.

Add in the conjuration energy Orb spells, and the Gorgon simply will not survive invading an elven realm. Too many low-level, decent-damage, no-save/no-SR ranged touch attack spells.

Human realms might be able to get priests and wizards to buff fighters enough to threaten the Gorgon, though that's pretty tough.

So, meta-gaming, the Gorgon still fears spellcasters. Personally, I think story ideas are always better than metagaming, and the Gorgon should still be killable. Though I wouldn't be above Forcecaging him to teach him a lesson and keep him out of my realm :). Aelies, TBM, presumably the Wizards College of the Imperial City, Ruobhe, or Isaelie could do it--it might be a good explanation for why the Gorgon leaves the Sielwode alone, though the Gorgon's realm nearly surrounds it. She and hers would kill him if he tried--and Rhuobhe would help.

I'd rather have his death come after centuries of struggle and preparation by heroes, though, acquiring epic power of their own in the process. Consider a new Anuirean emperor with Long Life leaving the empire to the care of his descendants but taking sufficient tribute to continually increase his bloodline and gather power and minions for a final showdown with the Gorgon decades or centuries in the future.

[Danae]

Hello, French newbie girl around ! Sorry for the English.

Just my personal feelings about this guy, who is pretty much the "too much" unbeatable villain, for me.

Anuire military conquest is not fun, because it is too easy. Seeing "petty" kingdoms tearing them apart because of the Throne race is much more amusing.
Why Boeruine, or Avanil, or any other regent, could be what the Gorgon could not be, i.e emperor ?

Let him be the one who uses his wits to divide and to push realms at war, in order to avoid Cerilia being united once more. Why does he go out from his domain and hunt for a particular guy from time to time ? Just for fun ? Maybe not... Maybe because this one is THE ONE who could achieve this unity...

Then, let's have fun ! A good plot on the left, a little intrigue on the right, some blackmail to spice over. Then you can see the effects of your actions on a large scale. How delightful !
You, the Bastard, the Eldest, the good big brother who taught Haelyn and Michael all they knew about war and fight, and maybe life. The real heir of the Iron Throne. The one in front of who everybody should bow. You can't, neither can they. It is your business to ensure that Cerilia keeps a divided face. It is much more difficult than an open battle, during which you could just sweep the floor with arrogant regents faces.
Isn't it ?

I prefer to see him like this. He can be challenged by smart PCs, and he really likes it. He can even be merciful if the party gives him a good mind fight. No spiritual stuff, no discussion about how powerful he can be.
Raesene is also a man, after all, with a clear idea on the weapons he can use with identified enemies. He is certainly the ultimate warrior with no challenge on battlefield. What else is left, when physical power is out ? Mind. He has begun a secret war against weaker creatures, and to make things much more interesting, he uses strategies which can be countered. And he is pretty good at this game.
Isn't he ?

[RaspK_FOG]

Truly, since he is nigh immortal, it would seem quite reasonable to assume (he is quite intelligent, isn't he?) that he already knows that he would truly get deadly bored if he conquered the whole world and then simply ruled it.

On the other hand, he's also more than capable of realising that actively going against someone would make others come to the conclusion that, at some point in the future, he would strike down somebody else too, and thus have to face all of them at once - at least at some point and for quite a while. This means that he would also be prudent about going on such a campaign, as even someone as powerful as he could reasonably be felled by a multitude of all the heroes of Cerilia.

[ConjurerDragon]

Rowan schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=2002
> Rowan wrote:
>
...
> However, look closely at spells, and what spells have no saving throw or no Spell Resistance. Hist Spell Resistance could be overcome with great effort, but there are those that don`t require it. Take a look at Conjuration/Summoning spells--not only the actual monster summoning, but the direct damaging ones and indirect effects. Even from the PHB, enough spellcasting effort can bring him down, even if he`s prepared. Catch him off-guard, and you can really nail him.
>
> Here`s why the Gorgon would fear an elven realm--one using only PHB spells: 1. powerful monster summoning spells (eladrins, elementals, other outsiders); 2. 100 elves with Acid Arrow could kill him in 10 rounds; 3. Force Cage, then Fire at Will with Acid Fog, Acid Arrow, Radiant Weapon Arrowheads.
>
> Add in the conjuration energy Orb spells, and the Gorgon simply will not survive invading an elven realm. Too many low-level, decent-damage, no-save/no-SR ranged touch attack spells.
>
> Human realms might be able to get priests and wizards to buff fighters enough to threaten the Gorgon, though that`s pretty tough.
>
> So, meta-gaming, the Gorgon still fears spellcasters. Personally, I think story ideas are always better than metagaming, and the Gorgon should still be killable. Though I wouldn`t be above Forcecaging him to teach him a lesson and keep him out of my realm :). Aelies, TBM, presumably the Wizards College of the Imperial City, Ruobhe, or Isaelie could do it--it might be a good explanation for why the Gorgon leaves the Sielwode alone, though the Gorgon`s realm nearly surrounds it. She and hers would kill him if he tried--and Rhuobhe would help.
>
> I`d rather have his death come after centuries of struggle and preparation by heroes, though, acquiring epic power of their own in the process. Consider a new Anuirean emperor with Long Life leaving the empire to the care of his descendants but taking sufficient tribute to continually increase his bloodline and gather power and minions for a final showdown with the Gorgon decades or centuries in the future...
>
That sounds for me too much as if the Gorgon actually would fear the
elven realms.

I do not understand how you would compare 100 elves with acid arrows
against the Gorgon - sidhelien are few in numbers and hard pressed on
their borders. The novel "Greatheart" emphasizes just how hard the loss
of even a few dozen immortal lives in a border raid against gnolls is
for Sielwode.

Naturally the Gorgon would not invade any sidhelien realm alone and face
their combined spellcasters but rather use his goblin/dwarf armies or
some gnoll mercenaries to wear down the sidhelien defences and any army
level resistance they could muster.

Prince Raesene is highly intelligent and - to me - seems to be an
opponent who choses his fights carefully and has at least one backupplan
if something goes wrong.

To "catch him off-guard and you can really nail him or to have 100 elves
with acid arrow kill him in 10 rounds" sounds horrible to me. That could
spoil the game with every major villain or the game at all, because
anyone can be defeated in that way - if you allow such level of
preparation, gathering of unlikely allies while assuming that the Gorgon
simply sits there waiting to be defeated then you are doing one of the
greatest awnsheglien in the game a bad service. Every major attempt to
gather 100 spellcasters to strike against the Gorgon should be revealed
by the servants of the Gorgons spymaster or by the divinations of the
Hand of Azrai.

A far better explanation is that the Gorgon is the ultimate opponent,
being both Fighter and spellcaster to whom common soldiers or lowlevel
NPC?s are *far* below his status as the last living true Prince of the
Empire and Champion of Azrai. He has minions that deal with such nuisances.

He sows dissent between realms, keeps Anuire disunited or - if that
suits his mood - allows one regent of his choice to actually defeat his
neighbours. Only to find out that his success only means that he is ripe
to be harvested like a grape in the Gorgons
vineyard to raise Raesenes bloodline.

[Sinister]

The Gorgon is a big plot device that IMO was inserted for flavor and the possibilty of a "big ending" to a birthright campaign. To be used during a campaign in a full scale war was never the intent of the designers. To have a "looming" presence over anuire was their true intent.

What's interesting is the fact that while the birthright setting was being developed many RPGs of the 90s were playing with the idea of progressing timelines. Deadlands, Legend of the Five Rings, Vampire, 7th Sea, all had events going on the world that were progressing the timeline. While a novel concept, these progressions of timelines had a couple of negative effects. First off your timeline was always divergent of the official timeline, at least when dealing with NPCs and events. And secondly progressing the timeline never satisified everyone. While some people where thrilled with what happened to one character, they hated what happened to another, and as a result wrote their settings as either "first edition timelines" or some "alternate timeline"

I'm glad they did NOT progress the timeline because the Gorgon issue would have to be decided and I'm not sure everyone would be happy with the outcome.

[ShadowMoon]

Well, in my campaign, players went a great deal of trouble to ensure that Gorgon doesn't already rule the Iron Throne from behind the scene... and it was funny, they were scared more of Imperial Chamberlain, than the idea that Gorgon's Crown could storm the old empire. Paranoia, is a great tool, indeed ^^;

[Rowan]

Conjurer, it was never my intent to usurp the story richness of BR or reduce the Gorgon to a crass stat block. As I mentioned in my post, I think the story reasons for the Gorgon not yet seizing control of Anuire should take precedence.

What I was addressing was the meta-game concern that the Gorgon was simply too powerful, and that by game statistics alone, he should be able to conquer Anuire and really all of Cerilia.

The whole point of the exercise is to show that the Gorgon still must be cautious because he is still threatened with death, and to show a possible BR scenario that could result if he tried to take over Anuire by brute force.

It's not a terribly unrealistic scenario, in-game: The Gorgon invades a Sidhelien realm, with all his armies and in person. The elves and the forest rise up against him. A powerful elven wizard casts Force Cage on him locking him helplessly in place for many hours, vulnerable to being peppered to death by the many high and low-level spellcasters among the elves--who have the luxury of driving off his armies, first, via Realm spells and martial might, because he is trapped. If there is a realistic population of elves (still tens of thousands), enough spellcasters would quickly and spontaneously join the fray to defend their homeland against such a grave threat.

The Gorgon could escape, of course, with Teleport (if you give him that, though, there are other problems; see earlier posts in the forum) if Dimensional Anchor is not cast or Shadow Block is not in place on the province. Or if he has prepared Disintegration spells, but how many of these does he need to counter multiple Force Cages? He could nullify acid fog and acid arrows and energy orbs and radiant-weapon arrowheads with an antimagic sphere, but that's another 6th level spell that has a much shorter duration than Force Cage--the elves can wait it out, or counter it if they have a powerful enough wizard to Disjoin it. What an undignified way to go, I agree.

And this is only using canon spells! I'd say elves would have quite a few more at their disposal, as many are likely just as if not more intelligent than the Gorgon and would have made preparations for just such an offensive (such as Sebharrin's spell that destroyed Sideath). Thus, meta-game reality reinforces story to explain why the Gorgon can't just tromp through anywhere he wants to, despite his power.

[Sinister]

It's not a terribly unrealistic scenario, in-game: The Gorgon invades a Sidhelien realm, with all his armies and in person. The elves and the forest rise up against him. A powerful elven wizard casts Force Cage on him locking him helplessly in place for many hours, vulnerable to being peppered to death by the many high and low-level spellcasters among the elves--who have the luxury of driving off his armies, first, via Realm spells and martial might, because he is trapped. If there is a realistic population of elves (still tens of thousands), enough spellcasters would quickly and spontaneously join the fray to defend their homeland against such a grave threat.

The Gorgon could escape, of course, with Teleport (if you give him that, though, there are other problems; see earlier posts in the forum) if Dimensional Anchor is not cast or Shadow Block is not in place on the province. Or if he has prepared Disintegration spells, but how many of these does he need to counter multiple Force Cages? He could nullify acid fog and acid arrows and energy orbs and radiant-weapon arrowheads with an antimagic sphere, but that's another 6th level spell that has a much shorter duration than Force Cage--the elves can wait it out, or counter it if they have a powerful enough wizard to Disjoin it. What an undignified way to go, I agree.

And this is only using canon spells! I'd say elves would have quite a few more at their disposal, as many are likely just as if not more intelligent than the Gorgon and would have made preparations for just such an offensive (such as Sebharrin's spell that destroyed Sideath). Thus, meta-game reality reinforces story to explain why the Gorgon can't just tromp through anywhere he wants to, despite his power.


It requires a 13th level wizard, I'm not sure how many there are in the elf realms. Also the nearest elf realm has 10 standing units, the Gorgon has 30+ units according to 2nd edition. That's not including any temple troops the hand of Azari brings as well. It's possible to punk the gorgon with a force cage but it's just as possible for him to gaze attack all wizards attempting such a spell. Not to mention that his gaze attack automatically goes off once in line of sight.
Plus we aren't considering his pet dragon or his giant units.

I'm not saying he can't be stopped but it's unlikely the nearby realms will do it. They may give the other realms time to unify against him.

That why he should take more and more land slowly instead of a rush towards the throne.

[Rowan]

Surely it would be difficult, but you've got to give the elves at least as much credit for intelligence and preparation and farsightedness as the Gorgon. I'd say more. They may not be as shrewd on the battlefield as the Gorgon, but they know how to defend their homelands.

Standard game stats do elves a disservice on levels and defensive preparations. Still, working within them, Isaelie is 13th level and could have a bunch of extra scrolls prepared for the eventuality of the Gorgon's attack. Remember, also, that regents--especially elven regents--aren't necessary or even likely to be the highest level characters in their realms.

Remember that the Gorgon attacking an elven forest can lose many of his troops to Warding and fortifications, and Summon Monstrous Army from an 11th level spellcaster could rip a deep, deep hole in his armies (Isaelie can summon 4 of the most powerful units for 4 months; these units are powerful enough to probably destroy 10+ skeleton units, or many, many more goblins). His own archers and cavalry are all but useless; all elven troops in their thick forest ride around with impunity harrying him until he can trap one of them.

Consider that the elven forest itself is described as rising up against invaders. Treants and Forest Giants, centaurs, satyrs, dryads, pixies, sprites, dangerous plants, etc. 30 units would not be enough to seriously threaten a Sielwode realm, even with the Gorgon at the helm.

As for the gaze attack, rare would be the elf that would get within 30 feet of the Gorgon. Remember, they attack mainly at range, and all of those spells I mentioned are good ranged spells.

Human realms are much, much easier prey for the Gorgon. I'd be more worried about Elinie and Mhoried. Though they might be able to get wizards from the College of Sorcery, the TBM, Sword Mage, or High Mage Aelies involved, all powerful enough to work magic similar.

You're right, though, in that the Gorgon knows these threats, and knows he still isn't powerful enough to spearhead the charge himself until he conquers all. That helps explain why he works behind the scenes and takes land slowly.

[ryancaveney]

The novel "Greatheart"

For some reason, you seem to be bringing that up a lot lately, though my impression may be mistaken. Personally, I think most of its interpretations of Sidhelien culture are way off base. I think "Greatheart says X" is a better argument against X than for it. I don't consider it, or any of the novels, to be canon any more than is the fan fiction we write around here. Actually, I think they probably should be considered *less* canonical than what we write, since I'm quite sure people who've been on this list a while know a hell of a lot more about Cerilia than Simon Hawke, Dixie Lee McKeone and John Betancourt did when they got their writers' guidelines from TSR. At the very least, it's certainly no more authoritative than the in-character text from the Atlas of Cerilia, which many of us have long considered to be frequently mistaken or intentionally misleading in some of its details.

In any case, I am quite sure the Gorgon does fear the elves, especially Rhuobhe Manslayer. IMO, he never directly bothers the elves because he knows they will obliterate him if he tries, but they don't attack him because he so obligingly slaughters humans for them.

[Lawgiver]

Possible ideas:
1. Seizing the Iron Throne is not possible by force and he knows it. Either through some strong magic or power of the bloodlines themselves. Based on the “Iron Throne” novel, he was unable to draw Michael Roele’s bloodline as he grounded it before it was stolen. He is still trying to discover “how” to recover Michael’s bloodline. He has repeatedly returned to the site of his death and all attempts have failed. My personal plotline from a campaign was that Michael didn’t throw his essence into the ground as the Gorgon thought, but rather it went into the hilt of the broken Sword of Roele which was on the ground at the same point. The sword contains the “spirit” of the Roele bloodline but cannot be unlocked without the restoration of the sword. The Chamberlain maintains the hilt in a hidden location. The blade portion was recovered by the Gorgon and kept as a haunting reminder of his failure. A fake version of the sword was laid to rest in the tomb of Roele so that the pre-made TSR adventure is still playable. However, the PCs must recover the blade at some point during the campaign. There was an NPC in the campaign that was an heir, but the back story is a separate issue for now.

2. The Gorgon has been tasked by Azrai to restore one of his most trusted minions. At the height of the Battle of Diesmaar Azrai manifested himself to lead hordes. The resulting devastation caused by the destruction of Azrai’s avatar is well known throughout Cerilia. During the aftermath of the Azrai’s defeat not all of Azrai’s forces were destroyed. One in particular survived the blast--Beelzebub. Beelzebub was the strongest and one of the deadliest of Azrai’s demons. Having slain Azrai the remaining forces of good sought to slay Beelzebub. Their efforts were not initially successful. A human priest, whose name is lost to time, aided in his eventual defeat. To prevent the loosing of Beelzebub from his banishment to another plane, the essences of his “body” was divided and placed into various worldly objects. These objects were scattered about the face of Anuire and Cerilia to prevent anyone from uniting them and resurrecting the foul demon. The whereabouts and nature of the items were hidden from all knowledge. No one has sought the parts of the beast for centuries. Their existence was all but forgotten, until now… Welcome to a new campaign. :D


3. The Gorgon possesses an unknown weakness which he fears will be exploited if he moves forward. He seeks to remove this Achilles heal before he can begin his attack.

4. He is slowly turning to stone and like a dragon can only be active for so long before entering a low-level hibernation state. During which time his trusted minions maintain order and is one reason they must be replaced periodically to avoid rumors of weakness.

5. He can in fact conquer the land, but knows that he cannot maintain order and does not wish to deal with multiple rebellions. He is still planting agents to take care of this for him.

6. He is waiting for humanity to tear itself apart to a point of weakness in which they cannot stand up to him.

7. He is less evil than meant to be and fights a mental battle like Vader to redeem himself or “fulfill his destiny”. (weakest idea)

[Pauper]

The Gorgon has only a handful of awnsheghlien. The Gorgon easily wins, but cannot be everywhere so a load of re-conquest takes place.

The Gorgon has more in mind than a greedy brute on conquest, as the blood of Azrai speaks of more than mundane tasks and he is a wizard, additionally?

The Gorgon didn`t win, as their is no schedule and the Shadowworld works on abstract or chaotic rules.

Throwing armies against each other, did you always have so low esteem for thousands of lives? Even goblins or elves may prefer to survive and fight later, or were the dwarves simply drunk again? :eek:

Last but not least... the Gorgon didn't win because the officials hadn't yet learned to adapt the book of vile darkness, illithid mind-flayers and my Muggdosh deity. :rolleyes: WHAT ELSE COULD EXPLAIN IT MORE PROPERLY :cool:

[The Swordgaunt]

My take on Gorgy, and why he hasn't won yet, is as follows.

While the greatest tactician on the face of Aebrynis, he is short on troops. Thus he is forced to play the Anuirean game of thrones - pitting one against the other, and creating lasting enmity and old grudges so that his opponents will not ally too soon.

The elves, while not on his path to the Iron Throne, they must not be allowed to rally and strike his flank. They are old and cunning, so they are not easily taken. Although Gorgy has troops enough to burn the forest (especially if he takes the field), doing so will send a message - "He is coming!" - that will damage the grand plan if done too quick. The Anuireans might get their heads out of their back-sides...

He is one of the most formidable characters alive. Any hero who opposes him must be exceptional. I have used a Champion of Haelyn with Long Life as the most important (not lead-, mind you) protagonist in my campaigns. Haelyn actually speaks through the Lord Protector (a Paladin). Without their own epic, anyone who faces him in battle will loose, period.

He is old. Old characters plan differently than young ones. Besides, he is pretty clever. Combined this makes for long plots, not "by the first snow-fall" kind of planning. So what if he has to wait five hundred years before his plans can bear fruits?

Waging two-front wars is a bad plan. He will know this, and thus he will focus on destroying his enemies piece-meal. To be able to accomplish this without giving his enemies cause to ally, while simultaneously avoid that his vanquished foe has time to rebuild, takes planning and a lot of cloak and dagger.

In short, my Gorgon has spent the years since Michael laying the ground-work and placing pieces on the board. Now the game is about to begin for real.

[Green Knight]

Here is my take:

The Gorgon does not have the strength to take the Iron Throne.

1. He is not personally powerful enough to beat all opponents. If his stats make him that powerful, then that is IMO clearly a mistake. I'm all for him being the most powerful fighter around - by far - able to beat a group of skilled opponents ...but anything that makes him able to wade through hordes of 10+ lvl enemies is too DnD and not very good storytelling...

2. He has a big but shitty realm. Its filled with lousy provinces. He's going to have money and logistical issues when fielding a major army. He has a pretty special army...one that is not exactly filled with loyal troops...as likely to attack each other as their enemies. If Anuire really came under attack, they could field a vastly superior army in terms of size AND quality.

3. The Gorogn has leadership issues. Bad as he might be he's only one man. Does he stay at home to coordinate things and keep an eye on things? Most likely. Even if he did get out, he could only be in one place at a time. And good help is hard to find...especially for villains.

That said I'd like to have a more detailed history of the Gorgon's interaction with Anuire. When did he set up shop in the Crown? When was he first considered a major threat? Was any of his campaigns especially successful or not so successful? When did people start scaring their children by mentioning his name? What about his agent networks - when did he start using subterfuge? That sort of thing. Sound a bit lame for him to have sat 1500 years in the Crown - about as powerful as today - razing Mhoried or some such every generation or so.

[Green Knight]

While normally I favor story/flavour over mechanics, the 3.x mechanics of the Gorgon scream of his personal dominance over anyone or anything he might meet, short of some DM fiat such as Mark Aurel described (the Gorgon loses all his really mighty powers and magic beyond his domain).

The united Elven/Anuirean forces would only be a real threat if they had enough heroic champions who would be willing to fight together. But would Rhuobhe and Co. ever side with the humans, for any reasons? I highly doubt it.

Mechaniocally, the big question is: just how many high-level heroes can the Anuireans, elves, and dwarves muster? Personally, I believe the elves would have quite a few tough, high-to-epic level champions and heros - enough to make the Gorgon consider them a real threat. Anuireans, on the other hand, just don't have the expertise if one is to believe Ruins of Empire, which is what the first post in this thread really pointed out - that the Gorgon could stomp out the champions, leaders, and regents of Anuire without much issue, and having them united on the battlefield might in some ways just save him a lot of trouble, as he could get them all in short order and have all of their armies crumble without their lords and champions.

One thing I've decided for my own campaign is this: regardless of whatever powers he might possess, Teleport is right out. Once you let the Gorgon teleport, he is free to assassinate nearly any regent he wants at a whim - ensuring that none of them would ever become to strong. Only magically shielded realms, such as the elven forests, would be any proof against this. So I decided my Gorgon will be a sorcerer, not a wizard, as thematically better fits a warrior personality (intuitive magic). Even better, make him a low to mid-level sorcerer and Teleport isn't even an issue. Besides it makes room for actual Awnshegh monster levels along with Fighter levels, something completely missed in the BRCS version.

Osprey

Then the Gorgon is clearly too powerful. He only needs to be strong enough to prevent the players or any determined group of NPC from killing him. There is no need to make a Cerilian Elminster.

And as you say...teleport is about the silliest spell there is...

[Rey]

Well, maybe no one has considered a rather simple reason. The Gorgon likes to play, who cares about the Cerilia. Go out and have some fun, burn a village, kill a unit, subdue a domain, reap some blood. If you kill them all and conquer, where's the joy? He'd die out of boredom alone, not spell nor sword. Clever guy like him, with all the time in the world, where's the rush? ;)

[Green Knight]

Or meybe he's grown old and stony...both in body and mind. All he can manage these days is sitting on his throne and (barely) run his kingdom? Only with great effort can he mobilize to do anything besides that.

[Rey]

Well, he used to be young, too.

[ThatSeanGuy]

Isn't that what wards are for? Stopping the teleport stuff, I mean.

Anyway, I personally like the turning to stone answer someone posted here. As for me? Well, if I had my druthers, I'd just kill ol'stoneface off. Like was said earlier, he's so oversold as to be an impossible goal, something no party of heroes can hope to defeat, and also he's laying like a slug right between Anuire, Rjurik, and Brechtur. Instead of doing what a villain should, which is further the story and create adventure oppertunities, I usually see the Gorgon used like Stone from Deadlands, a sort of super ace trump card for the DM to use when up against the wall, or to smash a player over the head with.

To me, that particular region would be a heck of a lot more interesting if the Gorgon finally managed to claw his way into the Cerilian Pantheon, presumably as the god of ambition, bitterness, grudges, and the more "civilized" evils that Kriesha and Beleink don't cover. Suddenly, you've got at least a half dozen powerful awnshaegen and no less than four kingdoms without a dread overlord. I think telling a sort of Romance of the Three Awnshaegen with Earthcore, Tollar, the Hand of Azrai, and even the Warlock all fighting to sieze what parts of the Gorgon's empire they can, while the Markaz goblins, Mur-Kladian dwarves, and Kirgardian humans deal with suddenly being free, and the civil war that would inevitably follow there, is a heck of a lot more interesting than having yet another Sauron. Birthright's all about empires having fallen apart and brave would-be-kings bringing them back together. Why should it be different for the villains?

It'd also be a heck of a story reason for implimenting 4E changes, at the risk of digressing. "The Gorgon ascended to the heavens and, oh, it's open season on his old turf."

[AndrewTall]

It'd also be a heck of a story reason for implimenting 4E changes, at the risk of digressing. "The Gorgon ascended to the heavens and, oh, it's open season on his old turf."

One idea I had as a background campaign arc was the Gorgon replacing Belinik via ascension, his lieutenants had to prove themselves to him before he went in order to inherit his crown...

Plenty of plotting, potential invasions of Anuire, etc - all of which might be undermined by other factions in the Gorgon's court (particulkarly if they got out of hand) - and for cunning regents a chance possibly to loosen the Gorgon's grip on some of the vassal realms through choice diplomacy.

[ThatSeanGuy]

That would be pretty fun! If you could get the players involved not to degrade into hurling mugs and flipping tables, that is.

I was only thinking of that re: a hypothetical 4E Birthright because of the whole "Beacons of light." design, and because something as signifgant as that would be a great way to introduce new races like the dragonborn(Maybe an experiment of the Serpent's in creating a race of super soldiers that didn't go the way he wanted.) and tieflings(Humans who were affected by the Gorgon's ascension/living under any awnshaegen for too long.).

[Rowan]

Wards don't prevent teleport, but Shadow Block does. It still is a power with little place in BR, IMO.

I think insertion of any new races or classes into BR even after 4e should remain a house rule only thing. Personally, I don't see them fitting. Perhaps in the Shadow World, or rare creatures exiting the Shadow World (tieflings might work well there), but not populations of them even on the small scale of the halflings.

As for the Gorgon, his ascension to godhood would be one route. I think that's why the Hand of Azrai is so powerful. If the Gorgon holds every single temple holding in the realms he controls, all worshipping him, as well as all the magic here and in the Shadow World correlating to his lands, he could indeed ascend to godhoood. I believe he would indeed try to leave a successor in place, rather than just let them all fight it out after he left, because to do so would endanger his temples.

The other interesting aspect of godhood is that the spread of the Gorgon's temples could present some interesting problems, and he'd also be the most likely of gods to send avatars, seeing as how he'd have the most personal connection to the world he just left. Perhaps he has left Simulacra behind, hidden in various places, as "avatars?" Note that these would be 50% as powerful, and thus much more defeatable, though still more powerful than all but the mightiest of heroes individually.

I'm working on a way to make several layers of BR to start out some non-RPG-ers with a sort of tabletop strategy game, and the way it is shaping up it could make it much easier to adjudicate a campaign spanning several generations, with the detailed role-playing coming in at various key points along the way. This sort of game would lend itself better to the defeat of the Gorgon than most others, since several generations of dedicated effort sound about right for beating Gorgy.

[ThatSeanGuy]

"Spiritually tainted survivors of a fallen empire who're trying to rise above their dark heritage." and "Relitivly new race of organized, ambitious humanoids who want to carve out a home for themselves." don't fit in Birthright?

[Rowan]

Perhaps in yours, but not in my view of BR as a more traditional, generally low-magic, more real-world setting, where the only magical race are the mysterious and relatively few woodland fey, the elves, long a stock superstition amidst historical folklore.

[ThatSeanGuy]

Unlike demons, dragons and beast-men, which are brand new innovations.

But, speculating about 4E stuff is mildly off topic, and I apologize. In an attempt to get back on topic: I think the Gorgon having a clear successor would be mildly out of character-he's tried before, and learned that he does not share well-and ultimately replace the issue of "There's this invincible Doctor Doom guy who is sitting in the place where the Brechts, Rjurik, and Anurieans would naturally cross paths." This has always beena problem for me because I've always been very interested in how the five human cultures interact together, and they don't have many places on the map to do it.

Certainly, he could have a plan, but who says it would go his way? Suddenly going from world's toughest monster to the newest demigod doesn't have to be something he's fully realized the implications of.

[Rowan]

Those other creatures don't control great territories like the realm-level cultures. Tieflings might work very well in Aduria, since Aduria apparently had no elves or dwarves.

The Gorgon couldn't stand a successor while he ruled, but after apotheosis...? He'd probably just look for a successor for Gorgon's Crown and keep most of the vassal realms envassaled, possibly directly to himself as a demigod if this is possible.

Another interesting point. If the Gorgon truly is Prince Raesene and a little less a monster, then perhaps a little revision could be allowed to make his mini-empire a crossroads that he does indeed let people pass through--for heavy tolls. That could create some tensions. The Champion's Road could be a major highway running through the area, with the Gorgon's human and elven followers settling more along its length than the goblins, if only to not totally discourage travel along its length. The Gorgon could generate some more gold from it, and could indeed operate guilds.

I think the Gorgon's realms work as is if he is a brute that is rather less intelligent these days due to the influence of Azrai's blood over the ages. As long as you add in the Tribal Units variants rule, that is.

I think it's more interesting, though, to let Raesene be intelligent and civil enough to treat with, simply ruling a mixed empire that is extremely militant and ruthlessly efficient. Under that scenario, I'd give him full holdings of all types, maxed out with cunning efficiency, as well as ruling the tribal groups that populate his realm. That makes him a true terror (plus the endless hordes of skeletons standing silently in wait in the caverns and tunnels beneath Kal Saitharak). It also engages him in something other than war. To balance his personal power, I'd key it to several locations and items, so that outside of his realm he is much weakened, but within the reach of his Sources and Temples, he rules as a god.

[Magian]

Why hasn't Raesene taken the Iron Throne? That's simple, he's unlucky. His fate has taken him in a direction that has become his worst nightmare. He is a first son passed over for a younger brother. So, he ventures out on adventure to prove his worth and still he is not given what he has earned for the mere reason of his brother being a birth in marriage.

Raesene joins the rising tide in a great campaign, only to be defeated by the united forces against him and his master. With new blossoming power he lives to fight another day. This only proves he's a survivor. He retreats and forges a domain of his own in the aftermath of the great war. Perhaps for the first time becoming a king in his own right.

Born to Anuire and its culture and histories he is an Anuirean at heart. His motivations are derived from Anuirean values whether they are tainted by a jaded outlook or not, he is still a product of the forces around him. He is but a man. Yet, men learn and Raesene also learns and that is what has given him his successes. Even if they are failures in his own eyes.

Early on with his new found powers he felt invincible and knew he could defeat anyone without fear of death, yet he found defeat time and time again campaign after campaign. For all his skills, powers, and abilities he still couldn't take the throne. These failures proved to be valuable lessons and the elves themselves are to blame mostly for this. Sure it can be said they are the thorns at his sides, but at the same time they are the teachers of how to live a long life and who better to teach Raesene this than the elves. For all his powers in the face of the elves he has one shortcoming and that is experience. Even to this day he is considered but a cub compared to them. So, the slower he becomes the more deadly and precise are his efforts.

Although he is the strongest most worthy lord in all of Cerilia he still is not the emperor that he desires to be. Instead he has become it's biggest threat. Perhaps the touch of the shadow has clouded his mind to this, or perhaps his ambition drives him beyond it and is justification for him to continue.

How long does he have? Truly has anyone with the long life blood ability ever died of old age? Would it not change the psyche of anyone to stay seemingly the same age while those you know die off and their children and their children's children? Do they even know how long they will live? It is a process and they take it as it comes and deal with it how they can. Like any, the passage of time accelerates as they go on. Patience is a virtue perhaps, but it is also a coping mechanism for longevity.

Bad luck has ruled over Raesene's life, for truly can we judge him to be any less than his father who forged an empire with a sword? Is Raesene any different? Sure he is, or rather his luck is. However, in the face of this he has endured and forged his own luck and has gained great power. Shouldn't he too be revered as a hero? Has he any more blood on his hands than the other noble families of Anuire?

There are many strategies that can be considered and many spells, counterspells, and tricks that could be used to take out a regent or lord. Yet it all boils down to mathematics and the luck of the roll. Sure consider combat first when taking over a realm. The elves have the experience and at least equal abilities to Raesene, therefore they are too high a risk for his cannon fodder armies. Still its possible but too costly as history has shown.

Now let us consider the Anuirean puppies. It is a mathematical game of bloodline strength to invest a realm and to consider Raesene having to take on all of the realms united together, as of this day it is impossible. So, his game of divide and conquer in the face of his perceived immortality seems to be a sound path of conquest. He gains the most with the least loss. It is a game that may take a long time and that is why I suggest that he hasn't "Won" yet.

[Mirviriam]

Then the Gorgon is clearly too powerful. He only needs to be strong enough to prevent the players or any determined group of NPC from killing him. There is no need to make a Cerilian Elminster.

And as you say...teleport is about the silliest spell there is...

I had a player who I worked with for awhile - he would triple-threat-critical every third or fourth monster. We took the rule out because of that fact. The gorgon does not come south because I'd ring my boy out of retirement & make the rule active again.

Even with the rule off for 3xCriticals, there are groups out there that are just really great & can take a 2nd Edition group around 16th level. Simply because they are going to expect the cunning gorgon & if he does teleport they will know where - it might even turn out that the whole field of battle was chosen as a trap for the gorgon...he does have to pass through THEIR home.

On a serious note: While they wanted a bad ass in 2nd Edition - ALL rules converting him to 3rd Edition do not work as no one planned for Birthright conversions - it's an exercise in futility. Obviously we need to take a hard look at the way the conversions are being done.

It's funny what someone else said about the modifiers & D20 - I've heard similar things from the power gamer's corner. We were comparing how combat is about debuffing their enemies rather than hugely buffing yourself as the debuff makes every multiple attack from warriors throwing down 5+ attacks a round. The break down was using debuffing in a way that they did not allow saving throws by using aoe styles before wading into him.

That or you could easily convert the rolling from D20 to percentage (D100) then the +58 modifier is only adding a 50% chance instead of sure hits? Maybe we make the system D200 for the gorgon fight? I'm not a stats guy by any means - but I feel the need to point out if the system is broken, fix it.

Consider too, if the players are going to unite realms beyond on the borders of what other nations have achieved they will be higher level than ALL of the other leaders or so smart level does not matter.

[Lawgiver]

I stumbled upon the old interview with Rich Baker and this question was amongst the mix:


Question 11:

He's the most powerful Awnsheghlien out there. He "grows" and then "harvests" bloodlines for the sheer thrill of it. He hungers for the Iron Throne. In truth, with the current political environment, there is very little to stop him from taking it. I'm talking about good old Rock Butt; the Gorgon. Can you give us an inside peek into his motives? Why hasn't he taken the Throne and the Empire and subjugated Anuire? While the regents will "unify" to fight him, they'll likely stab each other in the back to end up the next Emperor after the battle, and most likely cause their own downfall because of this. What is the Gorgon after?


Rich:

The Gorgon wants what his brothers have: the love, honor, respect, and glory that he feels should have been his. And he missed his chance more than fifteen hundred years ago. Roele’s dead, the founder of an empire that still remains powerful even in its decay, and Haelyn is a god, forever beyond Raesene’s reach. Think of the worst mistake, the most painful missed opportunity you ever had in your life, and magnify it tenfold. Then imagine that you’ve got centuries to brood about what you could have had.


So where does he go from here? I’m not sure. I can see three tactics:


One, bring to ruin all that Roele built. Not very satisfying, but better than nothing. Raesene took a shot at this five hundred years ago by luring Michael Roele to his death.


Two, become a god so that he might finally settle his age-old quarrel with Haelyn and take his rightful place as the King of All. Not very practical, but that might not stop a megalomaniac like Raesene. Harvesting bloodlines might be the means to that end, and who knows how close he might be now? Maybe he wants Anuire to be gathered under one great king again so that he can bridge the final gap with one more slaying.


Three, realize that it’s all beyond his reach now and explode in a rage of godlike proportions. Plunge into a pit of terror, self-despite, violence, and brutality the likes of which the world has never seen. Take out your frustrations by beating the stuffing out of anything that crosses his path and break little children’s toys just to be mean. When Raesene determines that option two is not going to work (it may or may not, that’s the DM’s call) this might be the result.

http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Interview_Rich_Baker_One

[michaelirish]

Kind of echoing Lawgiver, but on a slightly more pragmatic level, given the present state of Aiure, and the average Ainurean's feelings about the Gorgon, he can't win.

Sure, he might -conceivably- be able to kick everybody's butt and throw a lot of kingdoms into chaos, but he is so abhorred that nobody would willingly follow him. Conquered realms would transform into resistance groups overnight, and the Gorgon would rule only in the exact location that his armies of powerful lieutenants, or he himself, had physical presence.

I don't think he wants that. Maybe he looks forward to the day when the empire is so lost in decay that the people of Aiure would look to him as the natural choice. A slim hope, but probably all he has.

[faithdreamer]

Some notes the creative parts came up with. :cool:
You can all bow (out) of argument later. :p

Raesene (Gorgon) the Black Prince

-People forget his humanity
-He is possessed of a strong bloodline and intuitive knowledge that transcends his mortal mind
-He studied wizardry out of necessity to strengthen his mind against the possibility of insanity
-He’s a keen strategist who knows he can wind a basic war fought on multiple fronts
-His soldiers may lose their cohesion and turn on themselves without him
-Rules his kingdom with ruthless efficiency that is nonetheless fair in his mind
-He was passed over for succession when he believed he had greater merit and jealousy festered
-He can’t conquer the surrounding lands outright because there are just as keen strategists
-Bears many grudges
-Still tries to be civil to the other rulers and is a relatively honourable person
-He believes that there are forces who constantly watch him
-He must take higher moral ground otherwise his victory is false
-He needs to make his ancestors and the gods and all of Cerilia agree ‘it should have been I’.
-He doesn’t want to put Cerilia to the torch because he cherishes its beauty
-He is very fond of Anuire and believes he would be a true monster if he put it to the torch
-The Art of War by Sun Tsu says the ultimate form of Warfare is to conquer an enemy without fighting
-Raesene shares this belief and wants to one-up the people of Cerilia
-If he usurps many more bloodlines his Azrai derivation may twist his sprit further
-Despite his considerable power he is aware of his own mortality
-If he wanted to march his armies on anyone he is aware how easily his foes could unite against him
-He passes his time maintaining and perfecting his abilities
-His emotions and wants prevent him from desiring godhood because they tie him to the world
-One of these desires is that he craves the Iron Throne of Anuire
-If he lost his realm or life then another ruler who was less worthy and more harmful would be King
-If he threw away thousands of lives in war what sort of butcher would he be?
-Butchers and Monsters crush the land under heel but Rulers and Kings care for their subjects and lands
-He needs to manipulate the whole of Cerilia into doing just what he wants
-He has trouble trusting others with responsibilities and is very independent
-He can’t be everywhere at once and he can’t do everything at the same time
-He has grown more fond of culture over the centuries and passes his time learning
-Tries to fight back against the coercion of his bloodline
-He believes that more vicious and evil children would create chaos and sew dissention and evil
-Studying magic opened new tactical and strategic opportunities for him to study and contemplate
-The longer he waits the more Cerilia begins to forget him and dismiss his presence
-Presumably as time passes Cerilia becomes more enlightened and unified
-There are many secrets about war he doesn’t know like Khinasi Dragon Powder
-He wants a worthy opponent to spice things up for him
-The changes in his appearance make him feel sort of miserable
-Resentment of universal powers like Gods and Fate increases because he feels they made him hideous
-He feels slightly unworthy as a brother for being forced to slay his younger sibling
-The elves are condescending and pity Raesene for being the creature he is now
-The Gorgon has many potential enemies because of all of his accomplishments
-He is willing to do evil things to get what he wants and that’s part of what makes him evil
-Raesene made conscious choices not to make an effort to redeem his self?

Rhuobe Manslayer

-Of all the elves Rhoube Manslayer hates Raesene the most and sees him as his purest enemy
-Raesene is one of the closest descendants of the men who raped the wilderness
-Raesene has also hurt his pride by ‘stealing’ the notion of elf immortality
-Raesene betrayed his loyalties twice and more importantly as a servant of Azrai
-Raesene is hated by the Manslayer for being able to match him tactically and strategically