Bloodform And Bloodtrait

[Osprey]

After reading Geeman's thread on ranking Awnsheghlien and Ersheglien, I've been thinking that Bloodform and Bloodtrait could definitely use some work. In particular, differentiating and distinguishing the major and great versions of those blood abilities.

As things stand, I believe the only difference between the two in the BRCS (p. 175, under the template description for advancing an awneshegh) is that the Great version allows the character to gain a monster ability every level of monster advancement, while the Major ability allows for 3 monster abilities per 4 monster levels gained.

Is it just me, or does this seem like a pretty weak (and messy) distinction between the two?

Here's my suggestion:

Break down the advantages of the various monster traits, and assign a point value to each based on their advantages and disadvantages. This should include all aspects of a monster template: creature type (different types have definite advantages over others, like higher HD, more high saves, better BAB, etc.), racial skill bonuses or penalties, racial ability modifiers, special attacks and defenses, special abilities, etc.

That's the hard part. The advantage is that once you have a point value assigned to various strengths and weaknesses (which would grant extra points), it becomes easy to differentiate the Bloodform/-Trait abilities.
The Great ability simply grants more points per monster level than the major ability. And I would make the gap larger than in the BRCS (where the Great ability is only about 25% stronger than the Major one).

I would go with something more like a 2:3 ratio for Major/Great. For instance, Major grants 12 points per monster level worth of abilities, while Great grants 18. This makes the awn-/ersheghlien with Great bloodlines and matching Bloodtrait/-Form abilities more appropriately powerful and impressive creatures.

Right now I'm still brainstorming a good point system, but here are some guidelines I'm thinking (before I go through a lot of work for nothing). Anyone who wants to help with this and get on board is welcome to post ideas.

The basic point cost of a monster level should first be balanced against a normal character level. In other words, does the base racial template make the character weaker than a PC, or stronger? Some types, like the Humanoid type, are decidedly weaker than a PC class level. Others, like Outsiders, are definitely stronger.

Weaker types might grant extra points to buy on other [compensating] abilities, such as ability increases, racial skill modifiers, or special abilities. Strong templates would cost points each level, and racial types that are roughly equivalent to PC classes should have a cost of 0 (the baseline comparison for measuring power of a level of advancement). I don't have specific costs down yet, as I'd need to study the Monster Manual and Savage Species to get a better sense of balance between racial templates. Any help by those of you who have studied this sort of thing more intently (Geeman?) is welcomed here! :huh:

Some Sample Point Costs: (based partly on the BRCS guidelines)

Some racial template possibilities (these are very much up for debate):
Outsider: cost 8 points per level
Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid: 6 points per level
Undead, Constructs: 4 points per level
Vermin, Fey, Humanoids, and Abberrations: gain 2 points per level


Racial Skill Bonuses: 2 points per +2 skill bonus

Racial Ability Modifiers: 8 points per +2 ability modifier

Natural Armor: 3 points per +1 Natural Armor bonus

Bonus Feats/Special Abilities (such as Improved Grab): 8 points each as a default for feat-equivalents

Other special abilities: the range of possible abilities based on changing anatomy and creature type is almost endless:
-New type of movement at 30' speed: 12 points (ex: flying, burrowing, or swimming)
-Additional Speed to one movement type: 4 points per 10' of speed increase
-Natural Weapons: base of 4 points per d6 of damage per natural weapon gained; +2 points per increased damage die increment (6 points for d8, 8 points for d10, 10 points for 2d6, etc.); use the DMG for guidelines on damage die increases, and keep the damage appropriate to the creature type.
-New Perception Types:
=Darkvision 60': 4 points (+2 per additional 30')
=Blindsight or Tremorsense: 8 points per 30' of radius
-Natural Resistances:
=Damage Reduction: 3 points per point of DR; vulnerability should be appropriate to monster type. If the vulnerability is exceedingly rare (such as Moraskorr), double the cost ( 6 per point of DR).
=Energy Resistance: 1 point per per point of DR vs. 1 type of energy (fire, cold, electricity, acid, or sonic). [Energy immunities seem to have disappeared from the 3.5 MM, or at least have become exceedingly rare]
=Elemental Subtype (usually Fire or Cold): 8 points (this is now one of the only abilities hat grants energy immunities, and the opposing elemental weakness only happens when saves are failed).
=Regeneration or Fast Healing: 2 points per level (i.e., 10 points = 5 hp/round)

Size Increase: 16 points per increase in size category, though this should be carefully restricted by the template type (Giants could go to Huge or bigger, but Humanoids shouldn't get bigger than Large, IMO). The increase grants all of the advantages (and disadvantages) of a size increase: bonuses to Str, Con, reach, and natural armor, penalties to Dex and AC, etc.

Extra HD: 4 points per extra HD based on racial template (usually d8); these are only available if a size increase has occurred. As per BRCS, the limits are +2 HD max. from Small to Medium, +4 HD ma. from Med. to Large, +8 HD max. from Large to Huge, etc.

Spell-Like Abilities: 1 point per spell level of power; usable once per day.
-For multiple daily use, multiply times the number of uses per day (ex.: 3 points per spell level for a power usable 3 times per day);
-5 points per spell level for a power usable at will, once per round as a standard action (2 points for a 0-level spell-like ability usable at will).
-Spell level should not exceed 1/2 total character level.

[Personal Note: BRCS uses these powers as "at will" by default; I think this is drastically overpowered compared to character levels of spellcasters].

Design Note: All advances should be appropriate to the monster type in its "final form." However, that final form might also evolve into something beyond the base creature type in time (like a giant sized version, for example). I would allow such a "super form" only after all of the base monster traits have developed.

All design points should be spent each level of monster advancement. However, I would allow points to be spent into undeveloped powers as a "down payment" for the next ability to be developed. For instance, if a creature wants to grow from Large to Huge but has only 5 points left, they could spend 5 points into a size increase this level, and it would cost only 11 points when the next monster level was gained.

The Monster Ability system in the BRCS is OK, but I would prefer to break it sown into something a bit more exacting so that DM's have some more solid guidelines when designing an awnsheghlien or ersheghlien.
And even if you keep the system for its simplicity, all I ask is that the Great and Major abilities be given a bit more distinction in the levels of power they represent. Great awnshegh and ershegh should be truly great.

[irdeggman]

The specific blood abilities bloodform and bloodtrait were supposed to be place holders until the the method of defining awn/er shegh was more clearly defined.

While Gary had a point in the other thread that the rules from Blood Enemies didn't actually require bloodform in order to start the transformation to an awn, I think that most people have adopted that as a premise and just assumed that not listing the abilities under the specific awn descriptions was another in the long line of editorial errors in the original material. So keeping with that assumption isn't really out of bounds here. Another way to look at, and more likely, is that the transformation for a humanoid (including humans) required the bloodform ability while the transformation for animals did not. This reduces the Blood Enemies book down to a reasonable number of editorials concerning this issue.

The monster class (for lack of a better word) transformation for awn/er definitely needs some work in the BRCS rev since 3.5 put a lot of emphasis on these things and more clearly defined the 'types' and 'subtypes'.

Once the method of transformation has been better defined in the BRCS then the blood abilities descriptions will be changed to match (longer term project).

Basically from the original material bloodform-great prompted a greater physical transformation than did bloodform-major (see the true bloodlined awn Gorgon, Spider and Manslayer). The Manslayer clearly had the least physical changes and subsequent corresponding abilities.

[RaspK_FOG]

I would like to see how this pulls of...

[geeman]

At 03:21 PM 11/16/2003 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



>I think that most people have adopted that as a premise and just assumed

>that not listing the abilities under the specific awn descriptions was

>another in the long line of editorial errors in the original material. So

>keeping with that assumption isn`t really out of bounds here.



I think there are too many in BE for it to be an editorial error. Ten of

twenty-five. Aside from that, there are other things to indicate that it

was the intention of the authors that Azrai`s bloodline was all that was

necessary to become an awnshegh, in texts printed both before and after BE

came out and in that text itself.



1. The Ogre from LotHK (published after BE) does not have that blood

ability either. That could be another error of omission--or it could be

purposefully because that the blood ability isn`t a requirement to become

an awnshegh.



2. In AoC (original boxed-set) awnsheghlien are defined as "any creature

imbued with the blood of Azrai that traps divine essence within itself

rather than giving it back to the land." The second half of that sounds

like the process of spending RP to increase one`s bloodline (which we might

take into consideration as a factor in the process of transformation into

awn-/ersheghlien) but the important thing is that Bloodform is not

mentioned as the means of that process, and "any creature imbued with the

blood of Azrai" pretty clearly indicates that becoming an awnshegh does not

require a particular blood ability. That text is written in-character to a

large extent, so we can take it with a grain of salt, but it`s written by

the Chamberlain, who is amongst the more knowledgeable of Cerilians, so I

think we can take that statement as pretty accurate.



3. It also seems to me to be unlikely that the BE text would make such a

consistent and repetitive editorial mistake in that it is in that book that

the Bloodform ability is first described.



Rather than an editorial error, I think the more likely explanation is the

other perennial BR issue (really a 2e issue, not just limited to the BR

materials) unclear or otherwise ambiguous writing.



>Another way to look at, and more likely, is that the transformation for a

>humanoid (including humans) required the bloodform ability while the

>transformation for animals did not. This reduces the Blood Enemies book

>down to a reasonable number of editorials concerning this issue.



It`s hard to tell exactly since we don`t know what the origins of some of

those awnsheghlien are, but depending on how one wants to classify

Apocolypse, the Kraken and the Leviathan, that could cut the number of

"errors" by as much as half, along with the Hydra and the Wolf who have

definitely animal origins.



Note: The Kraken was probably originally a human (or demi-human or

humanoid--at least, not an animal.) Unlike other "animal based"

awnsheghlien, the Kraken`s intelligence score is listed as "genius (19)"

rather than below average human intelligence. Generally "elevated animal

awnsheghlien" have higher Int scores than typical animals, but still below

average human intelligence. Having an intelligence score above the typical

human maximum would be odd for a creature that was originally an

animal--and gives us some information on the motive/purpose of that

creature. It`s not definitive, of course, but it is a generally good

indication that the awnshegh`s original form was some intelligent creature.



Still, even if we make that assumption, five or six errors of the same kind

in the same book.... It seems too consistent to be an inconsistency.



Even if it is an inconsistency, however, I don`t know if assuming an

exception for animals who have Azrai`s bloodline is really any more useful

a ruling than incorporating the idea into the awnsheghlien system in the

first place. Aside from the fact that the corrupting nature of Azrai`s

bloodline--not just the Bloodform blood ability--has an important thematic

basis in BR, I don`t know if the animals are any more or less transformed

by their bloodline than humans are. Some are drastically changed, others

aren`t. By itself animal origins doesn`t seem like it should automatically

grant the equivalent of the Bloodform ability. There are, after all,

potentially thousands of creatures that might qualify; hydrakin, caracdir,

the offspring of the Sphinx or the Harpy. I think it might be more prudent

to make awnsheghlien status a general process rather than to associate it

with a major or great blood ability.



>Basically from the original material bloodform-great prompted a greater

>physical transformation than did bloodform-major (see the true bloodlined

>awn Gorgon, Spider and Manslayer). The Manslayer clearly had the least

>physical changes and subsequent corresponding abilities.



He also appears to be the one of those listed who is actively fighting the

transformation. He wants to remain "elven" or his whole racial superiority

thing kind of falls apart. His transformation is less dramatic than other

awnsheghlien with the same Bloodform(major) ability.



Major and great versions of that blood ability are certainly a rough guide

to how transformed the particular awnshegh might be, though some appear to

be more transformed than others. We might take that as an indication of

the speed of their transformation in relation to those who do not have that

blood ability, in combination with other factors (bloodline strength, use

of blood abilities, etc.) indicated by the BE description of the Bloodform

ability.



Gary

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman@Nov 16 2003, 01:23 PM
>Another way to look at, and more likely, is that the transformation for a

>humanoid (including humans) required the bloodform ability while the

>transformation for animals did not. This reduces the Blood Enemies book

>down to a reasonable number of editorials concerning this issue.



It`s hard to tell exactly since we don`t know what the origins of some of

those awnsheghlien are, but depending on how one wants to classify

Apocolypse, the Kraken and the Leviathan, that could cut the number of

"errors" by as much as half, along with the Hydra and the Wolf who have

definitely animal origins.



Note: The Kraken was probably originally a human (or demi-human or

humanoid--at least, not an animal.) Unlike other "animal based"

awnsheghlien, the Kraken`s intelligence score is listed as "genius (19)"

rather than below average human intelligence. Generally "elevated animal

awnsheghlien" have higher Int scores than typical animals, but still below

average human intelligence. Having an intelligence score above the typical

human maximum would be odd for a creature that was originally an

animal--and gives us some information on the motive/purpose of that

creature. It`s not definitive, of course, but it is a generally good

indication that the awnshegh`s original form was some intelligent creature.

Gary


Kraken (from BE) "They say he (Azrai) came to Cerilia by water with corrupted,monstrous sea creatures, and one of these creatures was the Kraken."

Leviathan (from BE) "The history of the creature is unclear as well. By all reports, it was one of the ffew awnsheghlien that began its creer as a monster, mutating further as the blood of Azrai twisted it."

So both are pretty much inferred to as originally being monsters and not humanoids.

As far as bloodform blood ability goes, it wasn't even included in the BRRB as a blood ability, although the Gorgon, Spider, Manslayer and Seadrake were listed as having it on the cardsheets. Again more poor writing/editing in the original books.

As far as the Manslayer resisting the change, I haven't seen anything written to really indicate that. While he has transformed into a more lawful alignment (contrary to the elven nature) and shuns the elven basic nature of pleasure for himself and instead is dedicated to riding Cerilian of humans I haven't seen anything to indicate that he didn't embrace the changes that occured.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2099



> As far as the Manslayer resisting the change, I haven`t seen anything written to really

indicate that. While he has transformed into a more lawful alignment

(contrary to the elven

nature) and shuns the elven basic nature of pleasure for himself and

instead is dedicated to

riding Cerilian of humans I haven`t seen anything to indicate that he

didn`t embrace the

changes that occured.



The 2E cardsheet of Rhuobhe Manslayer: "...He can no longer walk in the

daylight world as he was wont to do before his transformation. He is a

creature of the twilight now, and he curses those who have the ability

to enjoy the day..."

bye

Michael

[geeman]

At 08:36 PM 11/16/2003 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



>Kraken (from BE) "They say he (Azrai) came to Cerilia by water with

>corrupted,monstrous sea creatures, and one of these creatures was the

>Kraken."



The description of the Kraken speculates on everything up to and including

an extraplanar origin, so just about anything is possible. The compelling

factor here, IMO, is the actual stats, and the rest of the description. He

could be based on an animal or a monster, but his intelligence score is

more than a little counter to that as not a lot of monsters are running

around with genius level intelligence. The transformation of the Kraken

doesn`t particularly lend itself to becoming more intelligent either, so

it`s difficult to explain the stat as being part of his awnsheghlien

nature. Also, his worshippers are difficult to explain if he is based on

an animal or non-humanoid. None of the other animal-based awnsheghlien

have something like that going on. There are the druids who support the

boar and the girl in love with the Wolf, but a whole population is

something that only very few awnsheghlien have, and none of the

animal-based ones.



The Rulebook does say "Some of the awnsheghlien were monsters who served in

Azrai`s armies. The Kraken, the Spider and the Serpent are examples of

these." The Spider, however, was a goblin from his description, and the

Serpent is at least half-man.... Sometimes we run into weird problems with

pre-3e nomenclature in that things are called "monsters" simply by virtue

of being creatures who opposed PCs. Later in that same paragraph there`s

the example of the Boar used to exemplify a bloodline of Azrai having bred

true, whatever that means. It`s difficult to give much veracity to that

section of the Rulebook.



Personally, I think the Kraken is most likely a sahuagin who somehow gained

a bloodline. At least, that would seem to be the most apt description. A

sahuagin transforming into a giant sea monster makes more sense than a

human guilder turning into the Seadrake.



> Leviathan (from BE) "The history of the creature is unclear as

> well. By all reports, it was one of the ffew awnsheghlien that began its

> creer as a monster, mutating further as the blood of Azrai twisted it."

>

> So both are pretty much inferred to as originally being monsters and not

> humanoids.



The Leviathan I think probably was originally a monster--as the BE text

indicates--but as noted above the Kraken has several things to indicate

that he was not.



> As far as bloodform blood ability goes, it wasn`t even included in the

> BRRB as a blood ability, although the Gorgon, Spider, Manslayer and

> Seadrake were listed as having it on the cardsheets. Again more poor

> writing/editing in the original books.



I think poor writing/editing are a major factor--or, at least, a lack of

what would be better classified as "quality control"--but I should point

out that its not entirely fair to lay all the blame on that. NPC

characters were a major thing pre-3e, and often those characters had traits

and abilities beyond/superior to those available to PCs. In 3e NPC status

has been turned into a sort of "supporting cast" role. Bloodform as a

blood ability being something reserved for NPCs is probably less drastic in

BR than entire realms being designated NPC realms, for instance. It

doesn`t particularly help us much in regards to deciding what the role of

the requirements might be for awnsheghlien for a D20 version of things, but

in a system that had a definite preference for certain character races,

classes, etc. for PCs vs. NPCs that is being translated into a system that

avoids such preferences it`s probably not fair to attribute to poor writing

and editing to something what was really a standard of the original rules set.



Given that a description of Bloodform/Bloodtrait weren`t in the originally

BRRB (or anywhere else in the BR boxed set) is problematic, and has I think

been the source of the assumption that a scion needs those blood abilities

to become an awn-/ersheghlien. We don`t really know what the thinking is

that went into the situation, though, so I think we`re better off using BE

take on the situation not only because it`s the source that actually

relates most directly to the subject, but also because it seems to make for

a more useful system in the long run.



>As far as the Manslayer resisting the change, I haven`t seen anything

>written to really indicate that. While he has transformed into a more

>lawful alignment (contrary to the elven nature) and shuns the elven basic

>nature of pleasure for himself and instead is dedicated to riding Cerilian

>of humans I haven`t seen anything to indicate that he didn`t embrace the

>changes that occured.



It doesn`t say anything specific outright in the description of that

character. The quote that Michael Romes just listed is probably the most

direct comment. My suggestion that he`s been resisting the change in an

extrapolation based on other aspects of the character. The evidence I

would cite for Rhoubhe resisting his change would be:



1. His basic form has not changed much. Gray skin, white

eyes. Essentially his physical transformation has turned him into an elven

Little Orphan Annie (in the day of the week, b/w comic pages.) This is in

spite of the fact that he`s one of the oldest, more active awnsheghlien

with one of the highest bloodlines. Consider the amount of his

transformation in relation to other, much younger awnsheghlien with lower

bloodline strength and scores who have transformed much more quickly.



2. It doesn`t appear he has resisted using his blood abilities. That`s one

of the things the published materials describe as increasing

transformation, yet Rhoubhe`s transformation is not particularly speeded up

by that, so some other factor must account for that lack of change.



3. His philosophy of racial (sidhe) superiority would make a transformation

away from that form rather repellent to him. It`s already suggested that

his change from chaotic to neutral (in regards to chaos and law) makes him

unelven. Rhoubhe`s transformation does not appear to be of the kind that

elves would find much sympathy for since it is, at the very least, less

elf-like than others. If he were to transform into a treant, a satyr, or

some other woodland creature that would at least be more palatable, but his

strange, black and white thing is in many ways "more human" than another

form might be.



4. Along those lines, elves are not so swayed by divinity as other races,

so it`s unlikely they would be impressed by him taking on _any_ form, even

if it were inspired by a relationship to Deismaar, so his transformation

could cost him his leadership role in sidhe society, and along with it most

of his purpose.



Gary

[Osprey]

I agree that Rhuobhe's been rather resilient to transformation. And if elves aren't so swayed by divintiy, then why are all their leaders blooded? Hmmm...

So if it isn't necessary to have Bloodform to become an awnshegh, why have it as a blood ability at all? I think things should go one of several decisive directions, but not hang about in the muddy middle...

If any strength bloodline of Azrai can become an awneshegh, then one of 2 things should be true, IMO.
1) Bloodform isn't necessary to becoming awneshegh, as Gary said. In this case, I'd prefer to simply scrap the blood ability altogether, as it seems extraneous.
2) Bloodform remains a prerequisite to becoming awnshegh, and is extended to being a Minor, Major, or Great power, with corresponding degrees of power in transformation attached to it.

My personal preference would go to option 2, but only for the Bloodform (Azrai's derivation) blood ability. One might even make it mandatory, or at least heavily weight it in the random tables, so that Bloodform appears in most bloodlines of Azrai, especially the more potent ones.

Bloodtrait, on the other hand, I think should be reserved for Great bloodlines of other derivations...the ershegh seem few and far between, but those that do exist are quite potent. But I'm not adamant on this one, just suggesting.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Nov 18 2003, 10:03 AM
Bloodtrait, on the other hand, I think should be reserved for Great bloodlines of other derivations...the ershegh seem few and far between, but those that do exist are quite potent. But I'm not adamant on this one, just suggesting.
While it didn't specifically mention bloodform as a prerequisite for transformatin of an awnshegh the BoR did specificaly state that blood trait was required to transform into an ershegh.

[OsricIlien]

Going along with what Osprey was saying I suggest having some sort of table of Awneshegh progression. Savage Species created a set of rules for creating a monster class progression, perhaps creatures with the Minor blood ability of Bloodform would have access to 5-6 ecl levels of a creature. Major 5-12 ecl levels and Great 5-20 levels. They would basicly gain monster levels for every step closer they made to being true Awneshegh. Hopefully I explained that clearly

Secondly, It may not have been the case in the original material that an Awneshegh requires the bloodability of Bloodform. However with the 3e rules it lends itself very well to that requirement especially if taking the ability then allows them to gain levels in a racial class or monster class. It seems to be a good requirement because not all Scions with the bloodline of Azrai are Awneshegh.

[Aurel]

Optionally a prestige monster class of Awnshegh/Ershegh can be created and with each level a character gets he can put it into a level for the Awnshegh /Ershegh class. To raise the Ershegh class would be by choice and the Awnshegh class would come with a modifier that would force the character to take an Awnshegh level before another class level.

Something Like this:

Awnshegh

Alignment: Any(by the 3rd level of Awnshegh the character will have his alignment shifted to evil.)

Special: Must have the Azrai Bloodline

Class Skills: none

Skill Points at each level 4 + Int Mod

Class Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Awnshegh Form 1
Skill Choice
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Choose from list
3 +2 +3 +0 +1 Pick Another

and so on and so on until perhaps 10 or 15 levels of Awnshegh.

The levels that a character can reach could be limited based on the number of Bloodline points and strength of the Awnshegh.

An Awnshegh list with a number of monster abilities can be included like

Wings
Change form(piscine/equine/feline/undead/)
Multiple Arms
MultiAttack
Dmamge Reduction
Fear
Gaze
Poison
and the list goes on and on....

Just a suggestion....

[Osprey]

One of the real beauties of the awnshegh and ershegh is that every one is unique, a legendary creature much like the ones described in folktales, replete with local haunts, tales of origin, individual powers, etc. To make them into a prestige class as you've suggested would, IMO, take them to a generic sameness that would thouroughly denigrate that uniqueness.

Having awnshegh take monster levels is, in a certain light, very similar to having a prestige class. But I think it is essential that every one be different, and hence a very wide-open system is needed that must break out of the boundaries of the basic class and prestige class system. Look to Savage Species if you want inspiration on monster classes and how to balance them, not the PHB or DMG.

[geeman]

At 04:46 AM 11/19/2003 +0100, Osprey wrote:



> One of the real beauties of the awnshegh and ershegh is that every one

> is unique, a legendary creature much like the ones described in

> folktales, replete with local haunts, tales of origin, individual powers,

> etc. To make them into a prestige class as you`ve suggested would, IMO,

> take them to a generic sameness that would thouroughly denigrate that

> uniqueness.

>

> Having awnshegh take monster levels is, in a certain light, very similar

> to having a prestige class. But I think it is essential that every one

> be different, and hence a very wide-open system is needed that must break

> out of the boundaries of the basic class and prestige class system. Look

> to Savage Species if you want inspiration on monster classes and how to

> balance them, not the PHB or DMG.



When it gets down to it the thing that makes awnsheghlien unique is only a

very small part of character class; the special abilities. Everything else

is simple numbers; BAB, saves, skill points, etc. and not the kind of thing

that necessarily makes for a lot of uniqueness. To that extent that those

numbers need be changed they can also easily be changed as part of the

special ability section of the class. Several prestige classes have

special abilities that could be used as an example of how to go about

having special abilities that are broad enough to define the transformation

of awnsheghlien.



The real problem, IMO, is not whether one should use monster levels or a

prestige class. In fact, either are unsatisfactory for similar general

reasons, nor is one more apt to describe the uniqueness of the creatures

over another. Each has certain 3e standards that don`t necessarily lend

themselves to awnsheghlien and ersheghlien. Best to just have a third

character class that isn`t directly associated with either monster levels

or prestige classes. In order to reflect the uniqueness of awnsheghlien

and ersheghlien a unique method is necessary. Otherwise the method will

fall prey to the limitations of the existing method.



Gary

[Osprey]

The real problem, IMO, is not whether one should use monster levels or a
prestige class. In fact, either are unsatisfactory for similar general
reasons, nor is one more apt to describe the uniqueness of the creatures
over another. Each has certain 3e standards that don`t necessarily lend
themselves to awnsheghlien and ersheghlien. Best to just have a third
character class that isn`t directly associated with either monster levels
or prestige classes. In order to reflect the uniqueness of awnsheghlien
and ersheghlien a unique method is necessary. Otherwise the method will
fall prey to the limitations of the existing method.

Gary


First of all, I'm a bit perplexed as to why monster levels (per Savage Species) don't suit transformation into awnshegh, when the SS system details a monster's progression into "full maturity" by breaking it down into levels. A similar idea behind awneshegh doesn't seem inappropriate to me.

What are the limitations you speak of? I ask because it seems like SS sets up a wide-open framework that is only a loosely defined set of guidelines ratehr than a narrowly defined set of limitations.

And if a unique system is necessary, what do you have in mind?

[geeman]

At 04:33 PM 11/19/2003 +0100, Osprey wrote:



> First of all, I`m a bit perplexed as to why monster levels (per Savage

> Species) don`t suit transformation into awnshegh, when the SS system

> details a monster`s progression into "full maturity" by

> breaking it down into levels. A similar idea behind awneshegh doesn`t

> seem inappropriate to me.

>

> What are the limitations you speak of? I ask because it seems like SS

> sets up a wide-open framework that is only a loosely defined set of

> guidelines ratehr than a narrowly defined set of limitations.



The problem isn`t monster levels or prestige classes. Either method works

equally well--or equally badly--because they are very similar methods when

one looks at the actual game effects. There`s just a few shades of

difference between the two as in how the HD, BAB, saves, etc. are

applied. What I was getting at in the previous post--and probably didn`t

convey very well--is that the stats aspect of prestige classes or monster

levels are incidental to the core issue of portraying awn-/ersheghlien in

BR. It isn`t the stats that make a difference, it`s the special

abilities. Neither prestige classes nor monster levels have rules for

their special abilities that are broad enough to handle the vagaries of

awn-/ersheghlien, and that`s where we need a whole new (sub-)system. It

might wind up being called a prestige class or "monster levels" that just

has this additional material tacked onto it, but in reality I don`t think

it`ll resemble either of those D20 mechanics. At least not much more than

they resemble one another.



> And if a unique system is necessary, what do you have in mind?



I use a character class for the BP system that`s up on birthright.net

somewhere. I`ve been using it to make up the awnsheghlien and ersheghlien

that I`ve been posting in the past several weeks. The version that`s up on

birthright.net is a draft and there`s some things about it that I`ve

changed since the version that went to the list, but it works just

fine. At least, no one seems to have taken issue with any of the powers,

stats or abilities of the characters I`ve posted. That "class" is like a

prestige class in that it has a few prereqs, and like a monster class in

that it has a more general progression, but it`s not really either. It`s a

third thing. So something like that is pretty much what I have in mind.



Gary

[geeman]

At 08:39 PM 11/18/2003 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



> While it didn`t specifically mention bloodform as a prerequisite for

> transformatin of an awnshegh the BoR did specificaly state that blood

> trait was required to transform into an ershegh.



The BoR`s language regarding how one acquires that ability might also give

us a hint or two as to the way the Bloodform/trait (major/great) issue

might be portrayed. "Scions are rarely born with bloodtrait, the ability

that enables ershegh transformation. Far more often, characters manifest

this ability only after intense devotion to their chosen alignments."



That could mean they must get the blood ability after increasing their

bloodline strength score, or it might mean that bloodtrait (and bloodform)

are in some way extraneous to other types of blood abilities. They may

represent aspects of the bloodline system that are not really outlined in

either BE or BoR. The BoR has some rules from raising bloodline strength

that are related to bloodline score, but require additional efforts. Maybe

bloodform/trait should be handled like that. As in, it`s something that a

character could get at birth/maturation (read: character generation) or it

might be something that manifests later as a result of his heroic or vile

deeds (read: experience based.)



Gary

[OsricIlien]

What sort of special abilities were you refering to Gary? Could these special abilities simply be made into different bloodline powers or Awnshegh feats or something like that. I really like the idea of using monster levels for the change that occurs within a creature of Azrai. All the Awnshegh that I have heard about can be converted into most types of Monsters if they need different abilities perhaps just creating a list of powers available is all that is nessecary

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by OsricIlien@Nov 19 2003, 07:44 PM
What sort of special abilities were you refering to Gary? Could these special abilities simply be made into different bloodline powers or Awnshegh feats or something like that. I really like the idea of using monster levels for the change that occurs within a creature of Azrai. All the Awnshegh that I have heard about can be converted into most types of Monsters if they need different abilities perhaps just creating a list of powers available is all that is nessecary
I tend to agree with this and Osprey's post. The present BRCS (which needs a lot of work since the awn/er section was a late add-on to meet posing commitments) basically had the character (or creature as it were) pick a type of creature and then take abilities based on that type. This plays even better in 3.5 with the increase in the number of types and subtypes and the increase in the number of 'monster abilities' (i.e., feats and skills). It becomes a matter of coming up with a better 'list' of feats/skills available to the subtype (I think using subtypes would probably be better than using just types).

When the revised psionics book comes out with its psi-like abilities this would give even more possibilities. We've got to remember that all awn/er are indeed individual and there is no one that is exactly like another, or really even that close (that would sort of remove the uniqueness after all). Since all awn/er are individual then what this really boils down to is what does the DM need to create a 'new' awnsheghlien. That is assuming that awnshegh are NPCs and that ershegh are most likely NPCs, although a case could be made for allowing a PC to becme an ersheghlien, regardless it should be exceptionally rare.

[Osprey]

I also think it can be an interesting story for a PC to become an awneshegh. For one thing, there's no prohibition against evil PC's in BR, and secondly you don't have to be evil to become an awnshegh...it just gets harder and harder not to be as you become more monstrous and deal with those consequences. But since the transformation tends to be a gradual process for some (many, even) awnshegh, it can be great PC story material in many ways: the struggle to resist the physical changes, the secret enjoyment of the new powers and the temptation to use them in difficult or challenging situations, the struggle to keep the monstrosities hidden and pass oneself off as human for as long as possible, the struggle to not become evil yet the increasing difficulties in not doing so...the list goes on and on. Personally, I consider this FAR more interesting than the voluntary process of becoming ershegh. That, by contrast, is almost boring, although there are some good social possibilities during the transformation and afterwards, such as the social stigmas of being more and more inhuman and freakish, being mistaken for an awnsheghlien, etc.

Either way, a good PC roleplayer and DM could have a great time playing someone going through the transformation, and if a system is created to keep things somewhat balanced, it's concievable (especially with the help of some disguising illusion magic) that the monstrous character could remain playable for a good long time!

[Prospero]

Personally, I am against any sort of standardization for abominations or ehrshegh. I feel that detracts from the uniqueness of the creature and the ability of the character and DM to play off each other.

A friend of mine found himself turning into an abomination in a game. He and the DM chatted for a minute, as I recall, and he decided (this was a Vos game) that he wanted to become Varsklike. So, from time to time, the DM would tell him that he had acquired +1 natural armor . . . or he could run faster on all fours . . . or he took reduced cold damage . . . etc. etc. Totally freeform, and somewhat random, but with input from both player and DM and maintaining on a course selected by both.

The idea of looking over or rolling on charts for awnshegh powers, or having classes, etc., just does not appeal at all.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Nov 20 2003, 03:42 PM
I also think it can be an interesting story for a PC to become an awneshegh. For one thing, there's no prohibition against evil PC's in BR, and secondly you don't have to be evil to become an awnshegh...it just gets harder and harder not to be as you become more monstrous and deal with those consequences. But since the transformation tends to be a gradual process for some (many, even) awnshegh, it can be great PC story material in many ways: the struggle to resist the physical changes, the secret enjoyment of the new powers and the temptation to use them in difficult or challenging situations, the struggle to keep the monstrosities hidden and pass oneself off as human for as long as possible, the struggle to not become evil yet the increasing difficulties in not doing so...the list goes on and on. Personally, I consider this FAR more interesting than the voluntary process of becoming ershegh. That, by contrast, is almost boring, although there are some good social possibilities during the transformation and afterwards, such as the social stigmas of being more and more inhuman and freakish, being mistaken for an awnsheghlien, etc.

Either way, a good PC roleplayer and DM could have a great time playing someone going through the transformation, and if a system is created to keep things somewhat balanced, it's concievable (especially with the help of some disguising illusion magic) that the monstrous character could remain playable for a good long time!
Sort of true in the no restrictions on being evil, but the BoR leans towards the opposite.

pg 25 "First, unless the character's of good alignment and (in the DM's opinion) has acted scrupulously in accordance with that alignment during his adventureing career, his alignment immediately changes to that of the awnshegh he killed (or some evil alignment, if the awnshegh was on of the rare neutral abominations of Cerilia)." It goes on under the more general transformation process, since this was out of the when a scion kills an awnshegh process, to describe how it is the commiting of acts of evil or vile deeds that causes the transformation - as a reward from Azrai's blood for behaving in an evil manner. (i.e., the scion is going to the dark side).

Something else I found in the BoR

pg 26 "The bloodform ability, which engenders the physical transformation of an awnshegh, can manifest at any time in a scion of Azrai." This latter statement tends to support the a scion must have bloodform to transform into an awshegh.

[OsricIlien]

Prospero,

I follow what you are saying what I was leaning towards was a system that would allow you to folllow your own ideas on creating Awnesegh. I dont know if you have had a chance to read Savage Species yet but that book really gives some good rules for creating Monsters from non monsters. This creates a basic ground work for you to build apon. If you want a creature that begins to become more and more like a displacer beast give him levels of the db class. This just gives us a starting block for everyone to use. One good thing about doing this is we could publish stats online that everyone would be able to use.