Bloodhunter/blutjäger

[the Falcon]

I'm trying to devise a prestige class for the Swordhawk's Blutjäger, but as I've never done anything like creating a prestige class before, I could use some help. So here I am asking for some. :)

BLOODHUNTER
<insert blurb here>
Hit Die: d8

Requirements
To qualify to become a bloodhunter, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment: Any lawful (a bloodhunters must always follow the orders of the employer without question and must vow never to commit bloodtheft themselves).
Skills: Gather Information X ranks, Intimidate X ranks, Survival X ranks (a bloodhunter must be able to efficiently uncover information about the whereabouts of blooded targets).
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bolas, net), Track (a bloodhunter must be able to track down blooded targets and capture them alive).

Class Skills
The bloodhunter&#39;s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (poisonmaking) (Int), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nobility & royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis).
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the bloodhunter prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bloodhunter&#39;s weapon training focuses on weapons suitable for disabling opponents, rather than killing them. Bloodhunters are proficient with the blowgun, dart, flail (light and heavy), guisarme, halberd, ranseur, and sap. Bloodhunters are proficient with light armor.
<insert other interesting class features here>

Base Attack Bonus: as ranger.
Good Saves: Fortitude.

Suggestions for the missing pieces?

--the Falcon

[geeman]

the Falcon writes:



> I&#39;m trying to devise a prestige class for the Swordhawk&#39;s

> Blutjäger, but as I&#39;ve never done anything like creating a

> prestige class before, I could use some help. So here I am

> asking for some.



Did you have any speciali abilities in mind? Favored Opponent: Scion or

something like that might be good. An ability to track scions might make

some sense.



Gary

[teloft]

Requirements

Track:
for city dwellers the Track feat would not be nessisery,
but it is wery usefull for this class.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bolas, net):
and you would not need every weapon thet you can capture somone alife with. For exaple I migth use a sap, or a trap to capter my blooded targets.
I would say thet you need to be Proficient with a way to take a target alife, then let the player argue how he is going to do thet commonly.

Survival X:
Well, if your not tracking, you dont need survival for this class, never the less it can be usefull. but not realy a Requirement.

Do you have any idee for the apple thet would atrackt people to this class?

use of nondeadly potions of something, witout the risk of geting infected yourselfe. f.x. to aply on a dart, or to put in somonse food.

we need some endge thet is not coverd in the other classes to make this one an apple.

:ph34r:

Edit:

Heres one bit:

Sens blood (Sp) at 3rd lv. as detect evil/magic, the spell, 3/day
and at 10 lv at will.

[irdeggman]

Maybe an enhanced sense of smell that enables smelling the blood of the gods.

The prerequisites need to be sufficient to force a character to be at least 5th level before qualifying. This would be at least 9 ranks in a skill (if my math is right) or a +5 BAB, etc.

It might be a good prerequisite to have a favored enemy - scion. This would give a lot of ranger benefits that normally are associated with a favored enemy.

[teloft]

lv 3 : Detect blood - 3/day (Sp)
lv 9 : Detect blood - at will (Sp)

Detect blood(Sp) as the spell, detect evil, or detect magic.

:ph34r:

I have written up some spells to increas the flow of idees
i have marked some of them with a &#39;*&#39;

Werry usefull:
Expeditious Retreat
Hypnotism *
Hold Person
Suggestion *
Helping Hand
Change Self
Charm Person
Sleep
Detect Thoughts *

to a lesser extent usefull
Hold Portal
Comprehend Languages
Web
Hideous Laughter
Knock
Confusion
Emotion *


and perhaps a bit to powerfull:
True Seeing
Feeblemind
Hold Monster
Dominate Person
Mind Fog
False Vision
Seeming
Eyebite *
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Arcane Eye
Prying Eyes

[the Falcon]

Gary wrote:
"Did you have any speciali abilities in mind? Favored opponent: Scion or something like that might be good. An ability to track scions might make some sense."

Yeah, I was thinking along the lines of something like Favored Enemy (scion) or something like that. Also, I thought about giving the bloodhunter the ability to sense the presence of a bloodline, like the paladin&#39;s detect evil or the elf&#39;s ability to automatically notice secret doors. Haven&#39;t though out the details yet. What do you think?

[the Falcon]

Teloft wrote:
"Requirements
Track: for city dwellers the Track feat would not be nessisery, but it is wery usefull for this class."
Well, I want to require this, because it kinda emfasizes the hunter element of the class.


"Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bolas, net): and you would not need every weapon thet you can capture somone alife with."
True. I really only added the bolas as an afterthought. What about if I require Improved Disarm instead of Exotic Weapon Proficiency?


"For exaple I migth use a sap, or a trap to capter my blooded targets. I would say thet you need to be Proficient with a way to take a target alife, then let the player argue how he is going to do thet commonly."
Well, I would like to set up a set of nonambiguous baseline of requirements for the class. I can always work with individual players from there.


"Survival X: Well, if your not tracking, you dont need survival for this class, never the less it can be usefull. but not realy a Requirement."
True again. I added this after I had added Track as requirement, but yes, strictly put, it doesn&#39;t have to be a requirement, because indeed, it doesn&#39;t necessarily fit the class per se. I think I&#39;ll drop it.


"Do you have any idee for the apple thet would atrackt people to this class?"
Apple? Sorry--what do you mean?


"use of nondeadly potions of something, witout the risk of geting infected yourselfe. f.x. to aply on a dart, or to put in somonse food."
Yeah, I&#39;ve been toying with the idea of nonlethal poisons for this class, too. That&#39;s why included Craft (poisonmaking) in it. I suppose I could extrapolate a bit more on that.


"we need some endge thet is not coverd in the other classes to make this one an apple."
I&#39;d say that&#39;s the goal of any prestige class, indeed, though I&#39;m still not sure what that apple is you&#39;re talking about. :)


"Sens blood (Sp) at 3rd lv. as detect evil/magic, the spell, 3/day
and at 10 lv at will."
Thanks for the suggestion.

[the Falcon]

irdeggman wrote:
" Maybe an enhanced sense of smell that enables smelling the blood of the gods. The prerequisites need to be sufficient to force a character to be at least 5th level before qualifying. This would be at least 9 ranks in a skill (if my math is right) or a +5 BAB, etc. It might be a good prerequisite to have a favored enemy - scion. This would give a lot of ranger benefits that normally are associated with a favored enemy."

I don&#39;t necessarily want to make Favored Enemy a prerequisite; this prestige class is not meant for rangers alone per se. Though then again, a little multiclassing never hurt anyone, I suppose. :)
I think I&#39;ll just require Favored Enemy (any humanoid) instead. From there, I&#39;ll ad Favored Enemy (scion) as a feature to the class. Something along those lines.
As for the skills, max ranks - 3 = character level, so 8 ranks would be the right requirement to make sure a character has achieved at least 5th level upon entry. I suppose I could just go with that per default, until I encounter a reason not to.

[teloft]

I would like to sifrent paths to this class.

the path of the rouge
the path of the bard
the path of the sorcerer
the path of the ranger

I would personaly design this class to be a natural exstension of all thees without crossclasing.

I wote for using the &#39;skill fogus&#39; feat on something as a Prerequirement
(perhaps &#39;Gather Information&#39; )

and the &#39;Use Rope&#39; is a must to bind the capterd ones. :)
thet is a class skill only for Rouges and Rangers

But the &#39;Bluff&#39; skill is class for
SORCERER, ROGUE, BARD But the Ranger only gets Bluff bonuses from Favored Enemy




Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.

At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy from those given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by 2.
If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger’s bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.



if we dont want people to take this clas until at least afther 5 normal levels, we could set the Prerequirement of 8 ranks, counting the Rangers Favored Enemies bonus to Bluff.

:ph34r:

Ill follow with some quotes to PHB 3.5



Class name
HD Type
Special efect of class per level





Ranger
HD d8

1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy
Combat style
Endurance
Animal companion
2nd favored enemy
Spells, Improved combat style




ROGUE
HD d6

Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding
Evasion
Sneak attack +2d6, trap sense +1
Uncanny dodge
Sneak attack +3d6
Trap sense +2





BARD
HD d6

Spells, Bardic music, bardic knowledge, countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1
Spells
Spells, Inspire competence
Spells
Spells
Spells, Suggestion




SORCERER
HD d4

Spells, Summon familiar
Spells
Spells
Spells
Spells
Spells

[the Falcon]

Teloft wrote:
"I have written up some spells to increas the flow of idees
i have marked some of them with a &#39;*&#39; "

Thanks, that&#39;s useful.
Thänk ju weri matsh. ;)

[teloft]

Apple? Sorry--what do you mean?


Apple : something that makse the edge, something good, something rewarding, something thet makse the class appealing.

[the Falcon]

A little rewrite (far from complete yet):

BLOODHUNTER
<insert blurb here>
Hit Die: d8

Requirements
To qualify to become a bloodhunter, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment: Any lawful.
Skills: Gather Information 7 ranks, Intimidate 7 ranks, Use Rope 8 ranks, Survival 5 ranks.
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Martial Weapon Proficiency (sap), Track.
Special: Favored Enemy (any humanoid).

Class Skills
The bloodhunter&#39;s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (poisonmaking) (Int), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nobility & royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the bloodhunter prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bloodhunter&#39;s weapon training focuses on weapons suitable for disabling opponents, rather than killing them. Bloodhunters are proficient with the blowgun, dart, flail (light and heavy), guisarme, halberd, ranseur, and sap. Bloodhunters are proficient with light armor.
Bonus Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net). :)
Detect Bloodline: At will, as detect magic.
Bloodsense: An bloodhunter who merely passes within 5 feet of a blooded creature is entitled to a special check (based on class level and Wis modifier) to notice that the creature is blooded (DC goes up for weaker bloodlines).
Bloodscent: The bloodhunter is treated as having the Scent quality with respect to blooded creatures only.
Favored Enemy (scion): As the ranger class feature.
Nonlethal Poison Use: Bloodhunters are trained in the use of nonlethal poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying nonlethal poison to a blade. A nonlethal poison is any poison that cannot kill a character, does not deal hp damage or Con damage, and does not inflict any ability drain.

Base Attack Bonus: as ranger.
Good Saves: Fortitude.

Notes: Gather Information and Intimidate are cross-class skills for rangers, but class skills for rogues. Since this prestige class requires 3 feats, a nonhuman could only take it after 6th-level, instead of 5th, as a human could.

Questions: at which class level should each class feature become available? Did I miss anything? Any suggestions on the exact game mechanics? Is d8 and 6 skill points alright or do the class features warrant some other combination?

[the Falcon]

I could of course also add a small spell list with disabling and detection spells, for instance. Good or bad idea?

[Osprey]

Prerequisites:

Skills: Gather Information 7 ranks, Intimidate 7 ranks, Use Rope 8 ranks, Survival 5 ranks.

Why Intimidate as a requirement? Sure it could be useful, but must every Bloodhunter be capable of intimidating people? Too many prerequisites can make a class too generic...something to keep in mind.

Use Rope (8 ranks) and Gather Information (8 ranks instead of 7 if the others are dropped, I&#39;d say) are good requirements; I would drop the Survival and Intimidate skills, since Tracking can be done with Search as well as Survival.


Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Martial Weapon Proficiency (sap), Track.

How about Expertise, Improved Trip or Improved Disarm, Track, and Proficiency in one non-lethal weapon: sap, net, bolas, or chain?

I would drop Favored Enemy as a requirement, because it forces every Bloodhunter to be a ranger, which is very constrictive. Track, at least, can be taken as a feat without being a ranger. And I think Rogues would make excellent bloodhnters without being rangers, especially in urban areas.


Class Skills
The bloodhunter&#39;s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (poisonmaking) (Int), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nobility & royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Use Rope (Dex).

Why not add Bluff and Diplomacy as class skills, along with Knowledge: Local and Kn: Geography? Bluff and Diplomacy can be quite useful for the non-lethal fighter/bounty-hunter. Bluff as a means of feinting in combat, Diplomacy as a way to reason with the target and with one&#39;s employer for a better contract&#33; With 6+ skill points, these guys can afford to have a big list of class skills.

CLASS FEATURES

I think the ideas are good. Consider giving Blood Sense at 1st or 2nd level, since it is such a basic component of what the Bloodhunter is all about.

Allow the Bonus Exotic Weapon Prof. feat to be one from a choice of non-lethal weapons (see above), and you can then grant it 2-3 different times during the class progression.

I think the favored enemy (scions) is a great addition; I&#39;d grant it several times (maybe 1st, 5th, and 9th levels? or 2/6/10 works, too).

Another possible class feature might be Sneak Attack with non-lethal (subdual) attacks only, perhaps +1d6 every 3 levels or so.

Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus with a non-lethal weapon that the Bloodhunter is proficient with might be another possible class feature.

[Osprey]

Notes: Gather Information and Intimidate are cross-class skills for rangers, but class skills for rogues. Since this prestige class requires 3 feats, a nonhuman could only take it after 6th-level, instead of 5th, as a human could.


Non-humans who were multiclass fighters could gain those feats as bonus feats (Expertise and Imp. Disarm, anyways).

I would give them good saves in Ref and Fort, as rangers in 3.5.

Since they have the same hit die and base attack as rangers, use rangers as a comparison for balance. Do the class features balance out with someone who would otherwise be a straight ranger? Compare to what a character gives up in taking the prestige class compared to what they gain. This should help in developing balance in the class.

[the Falcon]

Osprey wrote:
"Why Intimidate as a requirement? Sure it could be useful, but must every Bloodhunter be capable of intimidating people? Too many prerequisites can make a class too generic...something to keep in mind."

Bloodhunters need Intimidate to effectively interrogate commoners for the whereabouts of any scions.


"Use Rope (8 ranks) and Gather Information (8 ranks instead of 7 if the others are dropped, I&#39;d say) are good requirements; I would drop the Survival and Intimidate skills, since Tracking can be done with Search as well as Survival."

Hate to sound like a rules lawyer, but I&#39;m afraid I have to disagree: tracking cannot be done with Search. Let me quote the latest version of the d20 SRD for you: "[...] you can use the Search skill to find a footprint or similar sign of a creature’s passage using the DCs given above, but you can’t use Search to follow tracks, even if someone else has already found them."


"How about Expertise, Improved Trip or Improved Disarm, Track, and Proficiency in one non-lethal weapon: sap, net, bolas, or chain?"

Well, that isn&#39;t such a bad idea at all. :) Good suggestion. I&#39;ll leave out the chain though, since that is not quite nonlethal.


"I would drop Favored Enemy as a requirement, because it forces every Bloodhunter to be a ranger, which is very constrictive. Track, at least, can be taken as a feat without being a ranger. And I think Rogues would make excellent bloodhnters without being rangers, especially in urban areas."

You make the Favored Enemy requirement sound rather harsh, but it really only requires one level of ranger. That&#39;s all. Is that really so bad/restrictive?


"Why not add Bluff and Diplomacy as class skills, along with Knowledge: Local and Kn: Geography? Bluff and Diplomacy can be quite useful for the non-lethal fighter/bounty-hunter. Bluff as a means of feinting in combat, Diplomacy as a way to reason with the target and with one&#39;s employer for a better contract&#33; With 6+ skill points, these guys can afford to have a big list of class skills."

Well, I did add Bluff and Diplomacy, actually as part of my very first brainstorm, but then I removed them, &#39;cause I didn&#39;t want them to be too heavy on the Cha-based skills. That&#39;s just not how I envisioned them. Bloodhunters are not supposed to be suave, smooth-talking rogues. They&#39;re supposed to be a bit scary, actually. :) Ruthless trackers, relentless in the pursuit of their prey. Once they&#39;ve got a hold of you, you&#39;ll wish they&#39;d have used lethal weapons... ];}


"I think the ideas are good. Consider giving Blood Sense at 1st or 2nd level, since it is such a basic component of what the Bloodhunter is all about."

Yeah, I think that would work quite well.


"Allow the Bonus Exotic Weapon Prof. feat to be one from a choice of non-lethal weapons (see above), and you can then grant it 2-3 different times during the class progression."

Hey, I like your ideas. :)


"I think the favored enemy (scions) is a great addition; I&#39;d grant it several times (maybe 1st, 5th, and 9th levels? or 2/6/10 works, too). "

Yeah, I did intend for the bonus to increase.


"Another possible class feature might be Sneak Attack with non-lethal (subdual) attacks only, perhaps +1d6 every 3 levels or so."

Hey, great idea. I was already still looking for ways to increase their nonlethal damage potential. This is a good one. Thanks.


"Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus with a non-lethal weapon that the Bloodhunter is proficient with might be another possible class feature."

I suppose the best way to go is just make a list of feats that they can choose from each time they receive a bonus feat. Sorta like the fighter, but more limited.

[teloft]

You make the Favored Enemy requirement sound rather harsh, but it really only requires one level of ranger. That&#39;s all. Is that really so bad/restrictive?


YES

it realy is, you take out the good hig lv abilitys of all other clases, or at least you are telling people to be rangers. and its not good to restrict people so.

:ph34r:

[teloft]

I would only have 2 or 3 skills as a Pre...

Gather Information, SENSE MOTIVE and perhaps BLUFF

:ph34r:

[the Falcon]

Teloft wrote:
"it realy is, you take out the good hig lv abilitys of all other clases, or at least you are telling people to be rangers. and its not good to restrict people so."
Examples of DMG v3.5 Prestige Class restrictions:
Arcane Trickster: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher. Sneak attack +2d6.
Thaumaturgist: Able to cast lesser planar ally.
Aren&#39;t these equally restrictive?

[the Falcon]

Some adjustments:

BLOODHUNTER
<insert blurb here>
Hit Die: d8

Requirements
To qualify to become a bloodhunter, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment: Any lawful.
Skills: Gather Information 8 ranks, Intimidate 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks, Survival 7 ranks.
Feats: Combat Expertise, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net), Improved Disarm OR Improved Trip, Track.

Class Skills
The bloodhunter&#39;s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (poisonmaking) (Int), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nobility & royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the bloodhunter prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bloodhunter&#39;s weapon training focuses on weapons suitable for disabling opponents, rather than killing them. Bloodhunters are proficient with the blowgun, dart, flail (light and heavy), guisarme, halberd, ranseur, and sap. Bloodhunters are proficient with light armor.
Bonus Feat: Choose from the following: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bolas), Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus (bolas, net, or sap).
Detect Bloodline: At will, as detect magic.
Bloodsense: An bloodhunter who merely passes within 5 feet of a blooded creature is entitled to a special check (based on class level and Wis modifier) to notice that the creature is blooded (DC goes up for weaker bloodlines).
Bloodscent: The bloodhunter is treated as having the Scent quality with respect to blooded creatures only.
Favored Enemy (scion): As the ranger class feature.
Nonlethal Poison Use: Bloodhunters are trained in the use of nonlethal poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying nonlethal poison to a blade. A nonlethal poison is any poison that cannot kill a character, does not deal hp damage or Con damage, and does not inflict any ability drain.
Nonlethal Sneak Attack: The bloodhunter has the ability to make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage without incurring the usual -4 penalty. Sneak attack damage from other sources stacks with this ability. The bloodhunter can never use this ability to inflict lethal damage.

1st level: Bloodsense, Nonlethal Sneak Attack +1d6
2nd level: Favored Enemy (scion) +2
3rd level: Bonus Feat, Nonlethal Sneak Attack +2d6
4th level: Detect Bloodline
5th level: Nonlethal Poison Use, Nonlethal Sneak Attack +2d6
6th level: Favored Enemy (scion) +4, Bonus Feat
7th level: Bloodscent

Base Attack Bonus: as ranger.
Good Saves: Fortitude, Reflex.

I think these requirement would make the lowest possible entry character a 5th-level ranger/rogue, which is kind of what I want, but I&#39;m not sure. At least, I don&#39;t think there&#39;s any class that has both Gather Information and Survival. What do you people think, especially about the requirements? I dropped the whole idea of "they have to be scary". In locales other than Massenmarch, I can also see a concerned noble hiring a Bloodhunter to retrieve her/his kidnapped/lost/all too adventurous daughter/son/relative/someone.

[Azrai]

The Atlas-Team has also a "Bloodhunter" prestige-class at hand, just as a comment .....

[Raesene Andu]

Perhaps make a bloodline a requirement for this prestige class?

Just looking at the range of abilities this prestige class has, they sort of suggest to me: blooded scion. You also have to ask the question of why is the bloodhunter doing what he does? Is he hunting down scions to attempt Bloodtheft? That would probably be my first thought. Otherwise why hunt down scions at all?


There was a similar prestige class submitted for the Atlas, but as I&#39;ve pointed out in the past, I&#39;m only comitted to accepting the best possible material for the Atlas, so if something better comes along then I will put the two (or more) versions to the vote to allow everyone to decide which they prefer.

Here is the prestige class that was submitted for the Atlas. (Sorry I don&#39;t have time to do the pretty formatting).


Blood Seeker


The Blood Seeker tracks down whose who are consecrated by the essence of gods.
Blood Seeker can have several motivations. Some just track down wrongdoers or evil awnshegliens, other want to collect the divine aurae as a personal price . Most seek power and strive for new blood abilities committing bloodline usurpation. There are also Blood Seekers known, which want revenge for a deed a blooded scion has committed at the beloved. Many are confirmed that using the essence of the gods is a blasphemic act.
When Blood Seekers became blooded, they receive a gift that allows them to see things that other do not see.
Ranger, Paladin, Rogues and Fighters make the best Blood Seeker.

Hit Die: d8

Requirements:
To qualify to become a Blood Seeker, a character must fullfill the following criteria:
Alignment: any
Base Attack Bonus: +5
Derivation: Vorynn, Azrai, Reynir, Andurias
Skills: Spot 4 ranks, Gather Information 4 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks, Knowledge Bloodlore 1 rank
Feats: Track
Special: must be born as a non blooded, must have been exposed to the divine energies released during usurpation and must have experienced the crackling discharge of divine power, followed by ascension.

Class skills:
The Blood Seeker’s class skills(and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Disguise (Ch), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Intuit Direction (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Bloodlore), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis) and Spot (Wis).

Skill points each level: 6+Int mod.

Class features:
Armor and weapon proficiency: A Blood Seeker is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, also light and medium armor.

Ancient Foe: Due to his extensive study and training, a Blood Seeker gains a +1 bonus to Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive and Spot checks when using these skills against blooded characters.

Blood Sense: The Blood Seeker has the supernatural abiltiy to detect the essence of gods (bloodlines). The scion can sense the presence of blooded individuals within a radius of 60’ +10’ per level of the prestige class.

Smite Blooded: Once per day the Blood Seeker may may make a single meele attack agains blooded foes with a +4 attack bonus and a damage bonus equal to his level in the prestige class . The Seeker must declare the smite before making the attack. If the Blood Seeker already has a smite ability (for example a paladin) he can use the ability a second time a day, but the boni do not stack.

Sneak Attack: At 3. level, the Blood Seeker gains the Sneak Attack ability, just like the rogue. This abilitiy stacks with similar abilities gained by different classes (Rogue, Assasin).

Bonus exotic weapon feat: At 4. and at 9. level the Blood Seeker gains a bonus exotic weapon feat. The tools of trade are often quite diverse for a Seeker.

Ignore Scrying: At 6. level, the Blood Seeker gains spell resistance equal to 10+ his prestige class level against divination spells. This stacks with any other spell resistance he has.

Locate Creature: Once per day, a Blood Seeker can produce an effect identical to that of a locate creature spell. That way he can only locate blooded scions.

Dodge Critical: The Bloodseeker’s pure will, concentration and power and the culmination of his training turns even the luckiest blow into a grazin strike. Once per day, a Blood Seeker can make a Reflex saving throw to turn a critical hit inflicted upon him into a normal hit. The save DC is 20.

Know Bloodline: The Blood Seeker can deduce the bloodline strenght category (minor, major, great) of any blooded individual within range. The Seeker can also determine the relative bloodline strenght scores of individuals in the same category.

Resist Blooded: At 9. level, the Blood Seeker develops a natural resistance against blood line abilities. He gains a spell resistance of 15 versus all Blood abilities.

Devasting Strike: When the Blood Seeker attacks a blooded character, all threats are automatically converted into critical hits.



Level Attack Fort. Ref Will Special
1. +1 +0 +2 +2 Ancient Foe, Bloodsense
2. +2 +0 +3 +3 Smite Blooded
3. +3 +1 +3 +3 Sneak Attack +1d6
4. +4 +1 +4 +4 Bonus Exotic Weapon Feat
5. +5 +2 +4 +4 Ignore Scrying
6. +6 +2 +5 +5 Locate Creature
7. +7 +2 +5 +5 Dodge Critical
8. +8 +2 +6 +6 Know Bloodline, Sneak Attack +2d6
9. +9 +3 +6 +6 Resist Blooded
10. +10 +3 +7 +7 Devasting Strike

[the Falcon]

Raesene Andu wrote:
"Perhaps make a bloodline a requirement for this prestige class?"
No, that is exactly what I did not have in mind for this class.


"Just looking at the range of abilities this prestige class has, they sort of suggest to me: blooded scion. You also have to ask the question of why is the bloodhunter doing what he does? Is he hunting down scions to attempt Bloodtheft? That would probably be my first thought. Otherwise why hunt down scions at all?"
I find that a very narrow-minded/short-sighted view. Well, maybe that&#39;s a bit harsh. Let me mitigate it by saying that at least it&#39;s not the view I had. The bloodhunter I intended is an unblooded tracker/investigator who hunts down the blooded for someone else. That&#39;s why they have to be lawful; their employer has to be sure that once the bloodhunter finds her target, she doesn&#39;t just commit bloodtheft on them. My prime example are the Swordhawk&#39;s Blutjäger: they hunt the blooded for the sole reason of increasing his bloodline, not theirs. Naturally, they&#39;ll have to be very loyal to him to be trusted enough by him to be put in such a position. It&#39;s in the best interests of a bloodhunter to come across as reliable as possible to its potential employers.

I suppose I should include a requirement that you cannot be blooded in order to be a bloodhunter.

The bloodhunter&#39;s purpose is to scout out, locate, find or retrieve the blooded, to their employer&#39;s benefit.

I suppose in a way you could say they&#39;re kind of eunuchs. ;)

Anyhow, I hope that sheds a bit more light on the kind of class I&#39;m trying to create.

[teloft]

I would make some prototype characters, with only one clas, and this clas.

showing how he looks like at each level, and at what year he advantages up level (BR wise). Now we can easely see wether thre is something amiss, or something to powerfull.

yes, and have one of the characters with the most munskin/mulitclas possible.

i would write some of thees up If I were at home.

Will do an example to morrow.


I Would like to see more knowledge skills as class skills.

Know Blood
Know Local
Know Nobilitys

A possible variations:
hunter in urban area
hunter in civilized area
hunter in wilde area

Now I think we could pool this off. only with one Prestise class.

lets make one examples of each of thows as well, with whatever we think suits the best.

:ph34r:

[teloft]

I like the blood hunter.

i think of it as vampire hunter.

as the blooded one is the vampire, and its essencs must be neutralised.

with the general thougth thet if storde in one begin, thet begin will soon become a god. and leav us alone. totaly neutraliseing the treat of the blooded onse roming the ladders of society.

naa.. scrap thet..


lawfull, devoted hunter of blood, unwilling to corupt his own soul with the poison of blood power.

he is trained in taking down dynastys of blood. without corupting his own pure soul.


There is a question whether the blood hunter sould be Nutral, if this is the disctiption. :)

can not be lawfull/chaotic/good/evil.. &#33;&#33;

[Osprey]

I would definitely keep the Chain as one of those exotic weapons: it&#39;s incredibly useful for its entangling abilities, can be used to Trip or Disarm quite effectively. Just don&#39;t add Spiked Chains in there, and you&#39;re fine...IMO chains work as well as or better than nets because of their versatility.

I agree with Teloft&#39;s suggestions for Knowledge skills (Bloodlore, Local, Nobility).

I think it would be very useful to this project to write up a prestige class description sooner rather than later, so that you have a concept upon which to definitely focus the class abilities, skills, etc.

[the Falcon]

Teloft wrote:
"lawfull, devoted hunter of blood, unwilling to corupt his own soul with the poison of blood power. he is trained in taking down dynastys of blood. without corupting his own pure soul."
Cool, I like that description. I think it adds yet a bit more depth to the bloodhunter.

[the Falcon]

Osprey wrote:
"I would definitely keep the Chain as one of those exotic weapons: it&#39;s incredibly useful for its entangling abilities, can be used to Trip or Disarm quite effectively. Just don&#39;t add Spiked Chains in there, and you&#39;re fine...IMO chains work as well as or better than nets because of their versatility."
You mean the chain as featured in d20 Modern?


"I think it would be very useful to this project to write up a prestige class description sooner rather than later, so that you have a concept upon which to definitely focus the class abilities, skills, etc."
I&#39;m a bit unsure about my prosaic writing skills, but I&#39;ll try soon. :)

[Osprey]

You mean the chain as featured in d20 Modern?


Oriental Adventures gives a good write-up on the chain. Here it is:

Chain - Large Exotic Weapon
5 gp, 1d6/1d6 Damage, x2 Critical, 5 lb., Bludgeoning


A simple chain with weighted ends.* It can be whirled quickly, striking hard blows from the weights.* One end can also be swung out to entangle an opponent.*
* * The chain can be used either as a double weapon or as a reach weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penaltiesd as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case you can only strike at an adjacent opponent.
* * If you use the chain as a reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon.
* * Because a chain can wrap around an enemy&#39;s leg or other limb, you can make trip attacks with it. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain to avoid being tripped.
* * When using a chain, you get a +2 bonus on your opposed attack roll when attempting to disarm an opponent (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if you fail to disarm your opponent).
* * You can use the Weapon Finesse to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a chain.

Now how cool would this be as a Bloodhunter specialist weapon? B)

Another idea for a prestige class ability (or bonus feat, whatever you want to call it):
Improved Subdual Strike: the Bloodhunter has learned to use weapons in non-lethal manners more effectively than usual. With this feat, the Bloodhunter may use Bludgeoning weapons to inflict subdual damage with no penalties to attack rolls. They suffer only a -2 attack penalty when inflicting subdual damage with other weapon types.

Normal: A character suffers a -4 attack penalty when attempting to inflict subdual damage instead of lethal damage with a normal weapon.

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by Osprey+Nov 2 2003, 08:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Osprey @ Nov 2 2003, 08:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"Oriental Adventures gives a good write-up on the chain. Here it is:
Chain - Large Exotic Weapon
5 gp, 1d6/1d6 Damage, x2 Critical, 5 lb., Bludgeoning

A simple chain with weighted ends. It can be whirled quickly, striking hard blows from the weights. One end can also be swung out to entangle an opponent.
The chain can be used either as a double weapon or as a reach weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penaltiesd as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case you can only strike at an adjacent opponent.
If you use the chain as a reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon.
Because a chain can wrap around an enemy&#39;s leg or other limb, you can make trip attacks with it. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain to avoid being tripped.
When using a chain, you get a +2 bonus on your opposed attack roll when attempting to disarm an opponent (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if you fail to disarm your opponent).
You can use the Weapon Finesse to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a chain."
[/b]Yeah, that&#39;s the same chain as in the d20 Modern SRD. Except for the 5 gp price, of course. :P
I do like it much more than the spiked chain.


Originally posted by Osprey@
"Now how cool would this be as a Bloodhunter specialist weapon? B) "
Pret-ty cool. :)

<!--QuoteBegin--Osprey
"Another idea for a prestige class ability (or bonus feat, whatever you want to call it):
Improved Subdual Strike: the Bloodhunter has learned to use weapons in non-lethal manners more effectively than usual. With this feat, the Bloodhunter may use Bludgeoning weapons to inflict subdual damage with no penalties to attack rolls. They suffer only a -2 attack penalty when inflicting subdual damage with other weapon types.
Normal: A character suffers a -4 attack penalty when attempting to inflict subdual damage instead of lethal damage with a normal weapon."
[/quote]Yeah, I&#39;ve actually been thinking about that myself, since the last time I was on the boards. Great minds think alike. B)
Though, I guess it is kind of an obvious way to go. :P

[the Falcon]

What do you people think of the blurb I&#39;ve written? Is it clear enough? Is it missing anything I should&#39;ve mentioned? Did I use the right words?

BLOODHUNTER
Originating from Massenmarch, the bloodhunters, or Blutjäger as they are known in their native Brechlen tongue, are elite trackers in the service of the Swordhawk. Their specialism is the finding and retrieving of the blooded. Feared in Massenmarch by scions and commoners alike, bloodhunters are relentless in their pursuit, stopping at nothing. Their dedication to their craft is unparelleled.
Though less than liked by the citizens of their native land, some bloodhunters have moved away from Massenmarch and found different employment. Where in Massenmarch their sole purpose is to increase the Swordhawk&#39;s power, abroad they find their assignments much more varied. Appreciated for their unequalled ability to track down the blooded, their work can involve anything from safely retrieving a wandering heir to rescuing a kidnapped noble. Above all, they are valued for their unswerving loyalty to their employer; be it the Swordhawk or a noble king, a bloodhunter never questions her order and always carries them out faithfully.
Hit Die: d8

Requirements
To qualify to become a bloodhunter, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment: Any lawful.
Skills: Gather Information 8 ranks, Intimidate 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks, Survival 7 ranks.
Feats: Combat Expertise, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net), Improved Disarm OR Improved Trip, Track.
Special: The Order of Blutjäger does not allow its members to be blooded. Should a bloodhunter ever commit bloodtheft, she will be expunged from the Order and for ever hunted down by her former comrades.

Class Skills
The bloodhunter&#39;s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (poisonmaking) (Int), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (geography; local; nobility & royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the bloodhunter prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bloodhunter&#39;s weapon training focuses on weapons suitable for disabling opponents, rather than killing them. Bloodhunters are proficient with the blowgun, dart, flail (light and heavy), guisarme, halberd, ranseur, and sap. Bloodhunters are proficient with light armor.
Bloodscent: The bloodhunter is treated as having the Scent quality with respect to blooded creatures only.
Bloodsense: An bloodhunter who merely passes within 5 feet of a blooded creature is entitled to a special check (based on class level and Wis modifier) to notice that the creature is blooded (DC goes up for weaker bloodlines).
Bonus Feat: Choose from the following: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bolas or chain), Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus (bolas, net, or sap).
Detect Bloodline: At will, as detect magic.
Favored Enemy (scion): As the ranger class feature.
Improved Nonlethal Attack: When making nonlethal melee attack with an otherwise lethal melee weapon, a bloodhunter does not suffer the normal -4 penalty to attack.
Nonlethal Poison Use: Bloodhunters are trained in the use of nonlethal poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying nonlethal poison to a blade. A nonlethal poison is any poison that cannot kill a character, does not deal hp damage or Con damage, and does not inflict any ability drain.
Nonlethal Sneak Attack: The bloodhunter has the ability to make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage without incurring the usual -4 penalty. Sneak attack damage from other sources stacks with this ability. The bloodhunter can never use this ability to inflict lethal damage.
1st level: Bloodsense, Nonlethal Sneak Attack +1d6
2nd level: Favored Enemy (scion) +2, Improved Nonlethal Attack
3rd level: Bonus Feat, Nonlethal Sneak Attack +2d6
4th level: Detect Bloodline
5th level: Nonlethal Poison Use, Nonlethal Sneak Attack +2d6
6th level: Favored Enemy (scion) +4, Bonus Feat
7th level: Bloodscent, Nonlethal Sneak Attack +3d6
Base Attack Bonus: as Ranger.
Good Saves: Fortitude, Reflex.

And what do you folks think about the array of abilities? Did I overlook anything?

[The Jew]

This class is getting a little overpowered for my taste. d8 hit die, fighter BaB, 6 skill points, 2 good saves and nearly two special powers every level.

[Osprey]

Try spreading the abilities out among 10 levels. that would better balance the class. That would keep it a bit more on par with the 3.5 Ranger.

Add Wepon Focus: Chain, since you now have it as an exotic weapin proficiency.

Improved Non-Lethal Attack should be before Non-Lethal Sneak Attack, since you mention that the sneak attack doesn&#39;t incur the normal -4 attack penalty. I&#39;d add the non-lethal sneak attack as a higher-level ability, maybe at 3rd or 4th level.

I&#39;d also extend the prerequisite Exotic Wepon proficiency to any of the non-lethal array possible, rather than just the net: let the Bloodhunters have a little individualism. There&#39;s more than one way to capture someone...

[teloft]

I would take out any direct conection with the ranger

:ph34r:

[the Falcon]

But the blurb is okay, though?

[the Falcon]

BLOODHUNTER
Originating from Massenmarch, the bloodhunters, or Blutjäger as they are known in their native Brechlen tongue, are elite trackers in the service of the Swordhawk. Their specialism is the finding and retrieving of the blooded. Feared in Massenmarch by scions and commoners alike, bloodhunters are relentless in their pursuit, stopping at nothing. Their dedication to their craft is unparelleled.
Though less than liked by the citizens of their native land, some bloodhunters have moved away from Massenmarch and found different employment. Where in Massenmarch their sole purpose is to increase the Swordhawk&#39;s power, abroad they find their assignments much more varied. Appreciated for their unequalled ability to track down the blooded, their work can involve anything from safely retrieving a wandering heir to rescuing a kidnapped noble. Above all, they are valued for their unswerving loyalty to their employer; be it the Swordhawk or a noble king, a bloodhunter never questions her order and always carries them out faithfully.
Hit Die: d8

Requirements
To qualify to become a bloodhunter, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment: Any lawful.
Skills: Gather Information 8 ranks, Intimidate 5 ranks, Sense Motive 5 ranks, Survival 7 ranks.
Feats: Combat Expertise, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bolas OR chain OR net), Improved Disarm OR Improved Trip, Track.
Special: The Order of Blutjäger does not allow its members to be blooded. Should a bloodhunter ever commit bloodtheft, she will be expunged from the Order and for ever hunted down by her former comrades.

Class Skills
The bloodhunter&#39;s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Craft (poisonmaking) (Int), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (geography; local; nobility & royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the bloodhunter prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bloodhunter&#39;s weapon training focuses on weapons suitable for disabling opponents, rather than killing them. Bloodhunters are proficient with the blowgun, dart, flail (light and heavy), guisarme, halberd, ranseur, and sap. Bloodhunters are proficient with light armor.
Bloodscent: The bloodhunter is treated as having the Scent quality with respect to blooded creatures only.
Bloodsense: An bloodhunter who merely passes within 5 feet of a blooded creature is entitled to a special check (based on class level and Wis modifier) to notice that the creature is blooded (DC goes up for weaker bloodlines).
Bonus Feat: Choose from the following: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bolas, chain, or net), Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus (bolas, chain, net, or sap).
Detect Bloodline: At will, as detect magic.
Favored Enemy (scion): As the ranger class feature.
Improved Nonlethal Attack: When making nonlethal melee attack with an otherwise lethal melee weapon, a bloodhunter does not suffer the normal -4 penalty to attack.
Nonlethal Poison Use: Bloodhunters are trained in the use of nonlethal poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying nonlethal poison to a blade. A nonlethal poison is any poison that cannot kill a character, does not deal hp damage or Con damage, and does not inflict any ability drain.
Nonlethal Sneak Attack: The bloodhunter has the ability to make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage without incurring the usual -4 penalty. Sneak attack damage from other sources stacks with this ability. The bloodhunter can never use this ability to inflict lethal damage.
1st level: Improved Nonlethal Attack, Nonlethal Sneak Attack +1d6
2nd level: Bloodsense, Favored Enemy (scion) +2
3rd level: Nonlethal Sneak Attack +2d6
4th level: Detect Bloodline
5th level: Nonlethal Sneak Attack +3d6
6th level: Favored Enemy (scion) +4
7th level: Nonlethal Sneak Attack +3d6
8th level: Nonlethal Poison Use
9th level: Nonlethal Sneak Attack +4d6
10th level: Bloodscent, Favored Enemy (scion) +6
Base Attack Bonus: as Ranger.
Good Saves: Fortitude, Reflex.

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by teloft@Nov 3 2003, 11:09 AM
I would take out any direct conection with the ranger
Why? Do you have a good reason why?

[teloft]

I was hoping to see something about them having a pure soul

and by there discust of the blooded onse, thay have now a wery good save if exposed to a situation where the normal person would become blooded.

thay risist the blood better.

for becoming blooded

and for blood abilitys used agenst them.

&#33;&#33;

:ph34r:

[teloft]

Originally posted by the Falcon+Nov 3 2003, 11:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (the Falcon @ Nov 3 2003, 11:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--teloft@Nov 3 2003, 11:09 AM
I would take out any direct conection with the ranger
Why? Do you have a good reason why? [/b][/quote]
No I dont.

:ph34r:

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by the Falcon@Nov 1 2003, 05:15 PM
Teloft wrote:
"lawfull, devoted hunter of blood, unwilling to corupt his own soul with the poison of blood power. he is trained in taking down dynastys of blood. without corupting his own pure soul."
Cool, I like that description. I think it adds yet a bit more depth to the bloodhunter.
But it seems to be in total contradiction to the original design of the prestige class. That is when you made it a servant of the swordhawk used in order to increase his bloodline strength. How can they take down dynasties and have their main purpose to build one?

[teloft]

Originally posted by irdeggman+Nov 4 2003, 03:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman @ Nov 4 2003, 03:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--the Falcon@Nov 1 2003, 05:15 PM
Teloft wrote:
"lawfull, devoted hunter of blood, unwilling to corupt his own soul with the poison of blood power. he is trained in taking down dynastys of blood. without corupting his own pure soul."
Cool, I like that description. I think it adds yet a bit more depth to the bloodhunter.
But it seems to be in total contradiction to the original design of the prestige class. That is when you made it a servant of the swordhawk used in order to increase his bloodline strength. How can they take down dynasties and have their main purpose to build one? [/b][/quote]
wit the ideology, thet when to much blood gather in one beging, thet begin will blow itselfs out of this world. (in efect becoming a god) and as a god, it has a lesser degry of controle over the population then it dos in NPC form :)

so taking down dynastys in order to create a god. becous it hatse the dynastys. But dosent care about gods.

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by irdeggman
How can they take down dynasties and have their main purpose to build one?
Irdeggman, I&#39;m not sure I understand your question. Bloodhunters don&#39;t take down dynasties. I&#39;ve never said that. As for the bloodhunters working for the Swordhawk, their purpose is not to build a dynasty. I don&#39;t think the Swordhawk is interested in that at all. He just wants to be powerful himself. What happens after that, I don&#39;t think he really cares about. Even then, the only reason that the Swordhawk&#39;s bloodhunters&#39; purpose is to enhance his power and his alone is only because they work for him. It is not the sole purpose of the bloodhunter per se. The way I see it, bloodhunters don&#39;t really care per se why they have to do anything. They just do it because they&#39;re told to. No questions asked. Hence, the lawful alignment requirement. Does that answer your question?

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by teloft@Nov 4 2003, 12:47 PM
wit the ideology, thet when to much blood gather in one beging, thet begin will blow itselfs out of this world. (in efect becoming a god) and as a god, it has a lesser degry of controle over the population then it dos in NPC form :)
so taking down dynastys in order to create a god. becous it hatse the dynastys. But dosent care about gods.
:huh:?
I&#39;m sorry, Teloft, but I can&#39;t follow what you&#39;re saying at all.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by the Falcon+Nov 4 2003, 06:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (the Falcon @ Nov 4 2003, 06:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--irdeggman
How can they take down dynasties and have their main purpose to build one?
Irdeggman, I&#39;m not sure I understand your question. Bloodhunters don&#39;t take down dynasties. I&#39;ve never said that. As for the bloodhunters working for the Swordhawk, their purpose is not to build a dynasty. I don&#39;t think the Swordhawk is interested in that at all. He just wants to be powerful himself. What happens after that, I don&#39;t think he really cares about. Even then, the only reason that the Swordhawk&#39;s bloodhunters&#39; purpose is to enhance his power and his alone is only because they work for him. It is not the sole purpose of the bloodhunter per se. The way I see it, bloodhunters don&#39;t really care per se why they have to do anything. They just do it because they&#39;re told to. No questions asked. Hence, the lawful alignment requirement. Does that answer your question? [/b][/quote]
No, but you acknowledged the statement and said it added a bit more depth to the prestige class. That at least seemed to me to be be acknowleding the essence of the post.

Maybe we are looking at what a dynasty is differently. To me a dynasty is a form of rulership based on power, usually from a single individual. That is why I don&#39;t see a difference between what the swordhawk is trying to accomplish and in trying to establish a dynasty. It&#39;s all about power. More personal power translates to more power over a realm, that is what being blooded is all about after all.

[The Jew]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Nov 4 2003, 12:30 PM

Maybe we are looking at what a dynasty is differently. To me a dynasty is a form of rulership based on power, usually from a single individual. That is why I don&#39;t see a difference between what the swordhawk is trying to accomplish and in trying to establish a dynasty. It&#39;s all about power. More personal power translates to more power over a realm, that is what being blooded is all about after all.
I must disagree. Dynasties do not just embody personal power, but also a political system where rulership is easily transferred from parent to child. This requires not only personal power, but also the loyalty of the populace, development of a strong heir, loyalty of the army to the government and not merely the present ruler, an administration that can ease the transfer of power. Not all of these aspects are required, but it surely takes more than just personal power. The Swordhawk is really a dictator, and the system of rule that he created will most likely crumble upon his death.

[Osprey]

Agreed - the Swordhawk&#39;s rule would become dynastic only if he established a ruling family descended from himself, carrying his bloodline. Dynasties are the norm in Birthright, of course, but they aren&#39; the only way to go - it&#39;s also well-known for regents to designate heirs who aren&#39;t their children or even blood relatives. And long-lived regents, particularly those with the Great ability of Long Life, might very well avoid having heirs in order to protect themselves from impatient and ambitious children who are sick of waiting for mom or dad to die and leave them the throne...

Does the Bloodhawk have Long Life to any degree? It might make a considerable difference in his attitude in this regard.

-Osprey

[Raesene Andu]

As the Swordhawk took over Massenmarch 220 years ago, I think he would have at least some degree of long life.

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Nov 4 2003, 07:30 PM
No, but you acknowledged the statement and said it added a bit more depth to the prestige class. That at least seemed to me to be be acknowleding the essence of the post.
Well, I just thought it sounded cool. :)
I didn&#39;t incorporate it into the blurb, though.

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by geeman+Nov 4 2003, 06:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (geeman @ Nov 4 2003, 06:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>A while back I wrote up a Detect Bloodline (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0209A&L=birthright-l&P=R6891) skill. This might be a good place for something like that, especially if one had a class ability for the bloodhunter that allowed them to use that skill the same way Wilderness Lore/Survival presently interacts with the Track feat.
[/b]
Originally posted by -geeman@ Fri, 6 Sep 2002 12:16:58 -0700
The following skill description would replace any bloodline detection spells and abilities. It would be a class skill for wizards and sorcerers, cross-class for everyone else. Note: The version of Skill Emphasis I use makes the skill emphasized a class skill for that character no matter what class s/he levels up in, so by using a feat any character could gain access to this skill as a class skill.
Why not just a Detect Bloodline feat (or something with a better name) that gives you access to the stuff below through Sense Motive and Bluff?

<!--QuoteBegin--geeman@ w/some minor adjustments by me
Detect Bloodline (Wis; Blooded Only)
You use this skill to learn information about the bloodline of another character, or mask your own bloodline from detection.
Rank Benefits: If you have four or fewer ranks of Detect Bloodline you learn only that the subject has a bloodline on a successful skill check. At 5 ranks a successful Detect Bloodline skill check will reveal the bloodline strength (tainted, minor, major, great, true) of the target. At 10 ranks you learn the derivation of the target. At 15 ranks you learn the exact bloodline strength score of the character. Rank benefits are cumulative, so if you have 15 ranks of Detect Bloodline you learn the bloodline strength, derivation and bloodline strength score of your target.
Check: Use the following list of DCs to make a Detect Bloodline skill check: Target&#39;s bloodline is True: DC 25
Great: DC 20
Major: DC 15
Minor: DC 10
Tainted: DC 5
Physically touching target: +5 circumstance bonus
Each 10&#39; distance to target: DC +5
Nondetection spell: DC increased by caster level
Unreadable thoughts: DC +10
Target has Detect Bloodline skills: DC increased by target&#39;s skill ranks
A Detect Bloodline check is a full round activity. You may not take 20 on a Detect Bloodline check.
Retry: Yes, but you can make a Detect Bloodline check on the same target only once per day. After 24 hours (or after the time of day when you regain your spells) you may try again.
Special: If you have the Character Reading blood ability you gain +5 on Detect Bloodline skill checks. If you can take the Blood Scent feat you use your skill at Detect Bloodline to track a blooded character.

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Some notes:
1. I made the key ability wisdom because it seemed appropriate and because Scry is already intelligence. Wisdom is also NOT one of the main attributes for sorcerers or wizards, so using wisdom helps promote rounded characters.
2. Any other things that should provide modifiers for the DC?
3. I use rank benefits to determine the effectiveness of the skill check rather than the roll itself because of the way I set up the DCs. I use a lot of rank benefits amongst my changes to the skill system, so this fits into my other changes. It may not play very well using the straight skill system. YMMV.
4. I haven&#39;t written up the Blood Scent feat yet, but I think it&#39;s pretty self-explanatory. Blood Scent is to Detect Bloodline what Track is to Wilderness Lore. I don&#39;t think I&#39;ll even change the DCs.
5. Right now I&#39;m thinking this is a skill that should only be available to scions (along with a few other "blooded skills" I&#39;m considering) but I&#39;m not yet convinced that should be the case. I mean, why not a commoner with such a skill?
[/quote]I think the whole mechanic is okay, but I was thinking more along the lines of detect magic for the bloodhunter&#39;s Detect Bloodline ability. I could use the stuff above for fleshing out the bloodhunter&#39;s Bloodsense ability, though.

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by Beruin+Nov 4 2003, 06:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Beruin @ Nov 4 2003, 06:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Hello everyone. This is my first post for quite some time, but I`m still following the list with interest. Generally, I like the pretext of your class,
[/b]Thank you. :)


Originally posted by Beruin+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Beruin)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>but I see one problem: It seems that the Swordhawk created this organization for his own benefit. Yet you write:

Originally posted by -the Falcon
some bloodhunters have moved away from Massenmarch and found different employment. Where in Massenmarch their sole purpose is to increase the Swordhawk`s power, abroad they find their assignments much more varied. Appreciated for their unequalled ability to track down the blooded, their work can involve anything from safely retrieving a wandering heir to rescuing a kidnapped noble. Above all, they are valued for their unswerving loyalty to their employer; be it the Swordhawk or a noble king, a bloodhunter never questions her order and always carries them out faithfully.
How would the Swordhawk react if one of his most valued servants left the ranks to find employment elsewhere? I don`t think he would be amused and the would-be freelancer would probably earn his wrath and the enmity of his former comrades. This makes the class somewhat restricted to NPCs and the region of Massenmarch, unless you have a player willing to risk regular assasination attempts by other bloodhunters or other agents of the Swordhawk.
[/b]Well, it was originally intended for the Swordhawk&#39;s bloodhunter organization only, really, but then, in the spirit of 3e, I thought it would be nice if it was a bit more flexible. Yes, I see the problem. Any suggestions to solve it?

<!--QuoteBegin--Beruin@
The second objection I have is with the Favored enemy (Scion) ability. I always thought that the boni a ranger receives against favoured enemies are based on knowledge. A ranger knows his enemies well, their culture, customs, habits and their physiology (did I spell that right?). To my mind Scions are too diverse a group to qualify for this bonus. After all, what have a blooded orog chieftain and a refined guilder have in common besides being blooded?
[/quote]Well, that&#39;s why normal rangers cannot take &#39;scion&#39; as their favored enemy, isn&#39;t it? :)

<!--QuoteBegin--Beruin
The favoured enemy ability at least needs a little more descriptive justification. Why do Bloodhunters get this ability against a group ranging from a `normal` human to creatures like the boar and the Seadrake?
[/quote]The bloodhunter&#39;s &#39;special&#39;, though. Hell, if she can sniff out the blooded, who knows what else she can do with or sense about them?

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by geeman+Nov 6 2003, 08:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (geeman @ Nov 6 2003, 08:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>It`s something of a standard in 3e to extend the use of existing skills rather than come up with new ones, so most folks would probably prefer to handle it that way. Personally, I`m loathe to extend the use of existing skills to cover new tasks, particularly into such a broad area as bloodline. I`d rather tweak the skill list than tweak an individual skill. In this case, I don`t really get a Sense Motive or Bluff kind of vibe off of the ability to track a blooded character, or discern information about his/er bloodline, so an entirely different skill (or a class ability that functioned like one) is my preference. Besides, there were a couple of other skills that I wrote up having to do with bloodline that I rather liked, so I`d keep it a skill as part of an overall D20 version of things....
[/b]Well, maybe I&#39;ll just stick to what I had originally for Bloodsense, which was just a class level + Cha modifier check.

<!--QuoteBegin--geeman
If you want to use an existing skill and a feat rather than have a new skill you might use Spellcraft since that`s the skill Detect Magic uses, and that has a more direct connection to the magical/divine energy of bloodline that does either Bluff or Sense Motive.
[/quote] Nah, for detect bloodline I think I&#39;ll just go something along the lines of detect undead.