Diplomatic Embassies

[Osprey]

I posted this in the Royal Library a short while back, but I wanted to repost it here as a formal proposal to be included in the revised BRCS, since it compliments the Spy Network so well.

Diplomatic Embassy

A regent may use a Diplomacy domain action, DC 20, to establish a permanent Diplomatic Embassy in a foreign court. This can only be done in a foreign province where another regent hosts a Court.

If successful, the Embassy grants the following benefits:
1. The regent may make a Diplomacy action to the host regent, as well as to any other regent who has an Embassy there, as a Court Action. The standard cost of 1 GB still applies.
2. The embassy grants a +2 bonus to all Diplomacy actions in that province.

Embassies have a seasonal maintenance of 1 GB. If this maintenance is not paid, the embassy dissolves due to lack of funding.

Regents often station diplomatic lieutenants in embassies to allow them regular negotiations with important foreign rulers. Not surprisingly, the Imperial Court in the City of Anuire hosts more permanent embassies than anywhere else in Anuire.

-Osprey

[Airgedok]

Originally posted by Osprey@Oct 14 2003, 03:43 PM
I posted this in the Royal Library a short while back, but I wanted to repost it here as a formal proposal to be included in the revised BRCS, since it compliments the Spy Network so well.

Diplomatic Embassy

A regent may use a Diplomacy domain action, DC 20, to establish a permanent Diplomatic Embassy in a foreign court. This can only be done in a foreign province where another regent hosts a Court.

If successful, the Embassy grants the following benefits:
1. The regent may make a Diplomacy action to the host regent, as well as to any other regent who has an Embassy there, as a Court Action. The standard cost of 1 GB still applies.
2. The embassy grants a +2 bonus to all Diplomacy actions in that province.

Embassies have a seasonal maintenance of 1 GB. If this maintenance is not paid, the embassy dissolves due to lack of funding.

Regents often station diplomatic lieutenants in embassies to allow them regular negotiations with important foreign rulers. Not surprisingly, the Imperial Court in the City of Anuire hosts more permanent embassies than anywhere else in Anuire.

-Osprey
I like this idea but shouldnt a player be able to veto any successful role made my another player to place an embassy in his capital? The counter to this is that you cant place embassies in other players capital without permission. I dont like the idea that a player can make a role and pop in goes an embassy to a xenophobic sidhe's capital. At lest on a player vs player level. Player vs NPC realm must be dictated by die rolls.

[Osprey]

I like this idea but shouldnt a player be able to veto any successful role made my another player to place an embassy in his capital? The counter to this is that you cant place embassies in other players capital without permission. I dont like the idea that a player can make a role and pop in goes an embassy to a xenophobic sidhe's capital. At lest on a player vs player level. Player vs NPC realm must be dictated by die rolls.

Much like a Spy Network, this action would require a DC 20 Diplomacy Standard Action to set up. And like any Diplomacy action, this can be blocked by RP, opposed Law holdings (beauracratic red tape), and circumstances (like, "Hey, the elves are hostile to human diplomats; +10 DC!). Circumstance modifiers are where any DM has the power to modify the DC of any action, and account for things like you've described.

-Osprey

[kgauck]

> I like this idea but shouldnt a player be able to veto any successful

> role made my another player to place an embassy in his capital?



Embassies exist at the invitation of the host. That invitation can be

withdrawn at any time. The first phase of the permenant embassy would be

that it only exists between friends. Later its value would be realized not

only in coordinating friends, but also in prevented uncoordinated

hostilities, that is unintended war. Historically, war was nearly constant.

Everyone was nearly always at war with someone. By the time we see real

permenent embassies, you can begin to cut that down to half the time. This

has to do not only with the ability of permanant embasies to prevent wars,

but of the existence of permanent coalliations (the first phase of permenent

embassies) to act as deterence.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Raesene Andu]

I like the idea of allowing the establishment of diplomatic embassies, but I'd have to say that the creation of an embassy would need the support of the realm regent who rules the province where you intend to establish the embassy. If an embassy is created against the wishes of the realm regent then that really just undermines the whole idea of the embassy.

I would make the creation of embassies a court action, and make success automatic, but require the regent to first have a permission from the realm where he wishes to establish the embassy.

I would also make it more like a constructon, and lower the maintenance cost of 0.5 GB a turn. Perhaps make it a mini palace, with 4 GB construction cost, 0.5 GB maintenance cost, and allow a +2 bonus to all diplomacy attempts with that realm. You could also allow a diplomatic embassy to give a bonus to creation of a spy network in the province.

[teloft]

I would think of the spy network, as lotes of contacts within the provience, So if you have any presence in the provience, you acsuly already have a spy network of "lv 0" so creating a embasy, or what ever will automaticly create a spynetwork of 0, now increasing the value of the spy network is on the other hand what spynetworks are all about, for with a spynetwork of 0, you realy only get the gosips of the streeds, inns, and at he embasys balls, and perhaps at the phalas balls as well, if your invided. (thet is if your embasy is in the same provience as the phalas).

now if I were to alow somone to have any presence in my relam, thet is from somewere else, I would only alow thet in the capital proviance, where I have my court and main palas. so I would not be alowing them to have a automatic spy network all around my relam, I would even consider it a gesture of unfriendlyness to open a embasy in some other provience thet I controle other then the capital one, for thet embasy can only be used as a automatic spy senter. (unless ofcours thay would pay a wery hig tribute).


I remeber from the war in Iraq, the last one, thet the rousian embasy fortified there embasy, in order to uphold a presence, while most of the other embasyes closed down. there agenda was to lessen the damage don by bandids and any invaiding forses. How would I represent this in my game.

perhaps the embasy is now a law hoding? or it is a guild holding.

the ground of a embasy is forenge ground, the gound of the american embasy is acsuly an american ground, and so is the (united embasy of geramy-England, we have thet one here lol, its a bit funny).

So allyed states can have united embasyes, and therefore reduse the cost.

like, I open a ebasy, and all my vassals have acsess to this embasy as if it were there own (If I alow them), posibly redusing the cost for my empire of vassal states.

:ph34r:

[Osprey]

I like the idea of allowing the establishment of diplomatic embassies, but I'd have to say that the creation of an embassy would need the support of the realm regent who rules the province where you intend to establish the embassy. If an embassy is created against the wishes of the realm regent then that really just undermines the whole idea of the embassy.

I would make the creation of embassies a court action, and make success automatic, but require the regent to first have a permission from the realm where he wishes to establish the embassy.

This seems to me to ignore the role of standard Diplomacy actions. What does the DC in such actions represent? Usually it is the challenge in gaining a foreign regent's assent in some issue. Success is not automatic in most cases because most regents don't automatically agree to things unless they're convinced, and the entire process is characterized by negotiations, suitable gifts to the regent and various courtiers/noble/lieutenants, etc.

The fact that Diplomacy is normally a standard domain action shouldn't be undervalued. The idea that it requires a Diplomacy action to establish an embassy represents all of the roughly month-long negotiations and expenses involved in gaining the assent of the host regent and their court.

Like any action, DC 20 was a base value assuming it isn't usually easy to convince a foreign regent to have a constant source of information and politicking in their court. But all Diplomacy actions can have heavy circumstance modifiers, depending upon the current state of relations between the two regents, yet few should be truly impossible if the attempting regent throws enough power, energy, and resources at the project. There are a few exceptions, of course, such as Rhuobhe and the Gorgon.

The main advantage of the embassy was meant to be that in the future, now that there is an existing infrastructure, Diplomacy actions with that regent and other embassies in the province may now be undertaken as Court Actions. The additional +2 bonus to Diplomacy actions is also a fringe benefit of having dedicated emissaries spending time in the host court and becoming specialized in relations there.

I would strongly encourage keeping this on par with the spy network: it is in some ways very similar, but works on a more legitimate level.

If anything, I might even add a +2 synergy bonus to Espionage actions in the province, including establishing a spy network in the province, and allow the 2 bonuses to stack. If I added this, I would allow the Spy Network to add a +2 synergy bonus to Diplomacy actions there as well - we all know that a well-informed diplomatic action is going to be more successful than a poorly-informed one. And if a regent has courtiers working in the legitimate circles, as well as spies learning the secrets and whispers on a clandestine level, then a regent would have strong grounds for any diplomatic or intrigue in that province.

These additional bonuses would also help justify the 1 GB seasonal maintenance cost of such assets.


I would also make it more like a constructon, and lower the maintenance cost of 0.5 GB a turn. Perhaps make it a mini palace, with 4 GB construction cost, 0.5 GB maintenance cost, and allow a +2 bonus to all diplomacy attempts with that realm. You could also allow a diplomatic embassy to give a bonus to creation of a spy network in the province.

I think a palace in a foreign province is perfectly acceptable, assuming it is allowed. In my campaign, I allowed each level of the palace to add +1 to Diplomacy actions in the province, representing the regent's status and ability to host guests in luxury, throw lavish parties, and have the necessary servants and facilities to enable these things. Sometimes there might be additional costs; in my game, the Baron of Roesone built a mansion in the Imperial City as a way to announce Roesone's rise in status and prosperity and entrance into the greater political life of Anuire. But he had to buy the parcel of land first (not cheap for a nice, large plot in that place!), and then he could begin the actual palace construction...

[The Jew]

It is an excellent idea, and already in the BRCS. Check out the top of p. 109. The only difference is that the base dc is 10.

[Osprey]

It is an excellent idea, and already in the BRCS. Check out the top of p. 109. The only difference is that the base dc is 10.

Well dang, whaddya' know? Boy, do I feel silly... :P

[ConjurerDragon]

teloft schrieb:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2013

>

> teloft wrote:

...

> the ground of a embasy is forenge ground, the gound of the american embasy is acsuly an

american ground, and so is the (united embasy of geramy-England, we

have thet one here lol,

its a bit funny).



Does anyone know since when that practice is used?

Nowadays certainly the ground of an embassy is foreign territory, but

300 or more years ago?

bye

Michael

[Eosin the Red]

> Raesene Andu wrote:

> I like the idea of allowing the establishment of diplomatic embassies, but I`d have to say that the creation of an embassy would need the support of the realm regent who rules the province where you intend to establish the embassy. If an embassy is created against the wishes of the realm regent then that really just undermines the whole idea of the embassy.

>

> I would make the creation of embassies a court action, and make success automatic, but require the regent to first have a permission from the realm where he wishes to establish the embassy.

>

> I would also make it more like a constructon, and lower the maintenance cost of 0.5 GB a turn. Perhaps make it a mini palace, with 4 GB construction cost, 0.5 GB maintenance cost, and allow a +2 bonus to all diplomacy attempts with that realm. You could also allow a diplomatic embassy to give a bonus to creation of a spy network in the province.



I think that this is a dramatic improvement to the rules and would ease quite a few probelems encountered.



I use a little house rule in my game that has an embassy (when not contraindicated in RoE) with each landed regent that you share a province with.



FREX: Maesil Shippers has a diplomatic embassy with Ghoere and Mhoried. The WIT & CJS both have diplomatic embassies with Endier. Avanil has Embassies with Diemed, Tournen, Brosengae, Mieres, and Taeghas. The exceptions to this rule are in biligerent holdings - niether Ghoere nor Mhoried have embassies though both own law in each others realms.



This does not allow SRT to have embassies with SAS or PCE.



Anyhow....I like the improvements.



Randy

[kgauck]

Embassies aren`t buildings, they are groups of people. Every time you

employ a diplomatic action you are sending an embassy who walks from the

location of the sending ruler to the location of the recieving ruler,

thereby passing through eveything on their route.



When permenent embassies become common in Renaissance Italy, they still

refer to the group of people, its just that those folks have rented a nice

place to reside. For quite a while the embassy as a palce would only refer

to the residence of the ambassador. The embassy still refers to the people

sent. Only when the functions of the ambassador become more bureaucratic

(19th century) do the needs of the embassy become such that the residence of

the ambassador and the location of the embassy as a palce cease to be the

same places.



For our purposes, we have no reason to adopt 19th or 20th century notions of

diplomatic practice. Hence the embassy refers to the people who are with

the ambassador, nuncio, or legate. If you watch the movie Elizabeth, you

see an embassy from Spain in the person of Alvaro de la Quadra, you see an

embassy from France in the person of the Duc d`Anjou, and you see two secret

embassies, one of Walsingham to Mary d`Guise and the Papal mission sent to

Norfolk in the person of John Ballard.



Diplomats such as these travel under the old Heraldric rules, so they are

always presumed to be under a flag of truce and personally representing the

ruler who sent them. You can`t arrest Alvaro de la Quadra and more than

Henry V could arrest Montjoy, the herald who visits him throughout the

play/movie. If you think Alvaro is up to no good, say funding Catholic

opponants like Norfolk, coordinating the Catholic opposition, hiring former

friends to become agents of His Most Catholic Majesty, then all you can do

is send him back to his master. Any attack on his person is interpreted as

an attack on the person of the other ruler, because an ambassador is just a

stand in for the ruler who can`t be there. A nuncio is a stand-in who is

authorized to talk for a ruler, but can take no action. A legate is a

stand-in who can act (say sign a treaty) but cannot speak for the ruler. An

ambassador can both speak and act for the ruler.



The diplomat as a form of herald is protected by Cuiraecen. One might

reasonably assume that mistreating diplomats, violating the code of

heraldry, will offend temples of Cuiraecen. Further, Cuiraecen has

influence with Haelyn, Nesirie, Eleole, and Laerme, and so violating the

code of heralds could potentially cause problems with any or all of these

dieties. Lastly, he who mistreats heralds, has his own heralds mistreated.

If Cuiraecen were to withdraw from you the protection of your heralds, your

heralds would be fair game for any mischief.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Eosin the Red]

> Kenneth Gauck

>> Any attack on his person is interpreted as an attack on the person of the other ruler, because an ambassador is just a stand in for the ruler who can`t be there. A nuncio is a stand-in who is authorized to talk for a ruler, but can take no action. A legate is a stand-in who can act (say sign a treaty) but cannot speak for the ruler. An ambassador can both speak and act for the ruler.



>> The diplomat as a form of herald is protected by Cuiraecen. One might reasonably assume that mistreating diplomats, violating the code of heraldry, will offend temples of Cuiraecen. Further, Cuiraecen has influence with Haelyn, Nesirie, Eleole, and Laerme, and so violating the code of heralds could potentially cause problems with any or all of these dieties. Lastly, he who mistreats heralds, has his own heralds mistreated. If Cuiraecen were to withdraw from you the protection of your heralds, your heralds would be fair game for any mischief.



Great synopsis. Consider it yoinked.



Randy

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by kgauck@Oct 26 2003, 05:03 PM
Embassies aren`t buildings, they are groups of people. Every time you

employ a diplomatic action you are sending an embassy who walks from the

location of the sending ruler to the location of the recieving ruler,

thereby passing through eveything on their route.




Good detail Kenneth. The 'benefit' from having a permanent building is that (in BR terms) a mini-court could be applied to modifiy actions. This would be reflective of how well the delegates represent themselves and "suck up", if you will, to those they are trying to sway. Good surroundings definitely have an influence on how well the discussions go.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 4:19 AM





> The `benefit` from having a permanent building is that (in BR terms)

> a mini-court could be applied to modifiy actions. This would be

> reflective of how well the delegates represent themselves and "suck up",

> if you will, to those they are trying to sway. Good surroundings

> definitely have an influence on how well the discussions go.



I think the easiest way to reflect this is to allow rulers to spend GB to

effect diplomacy actions. Such spending reflects not only the magnificence

of your embassy but gifts for the other ruler, research, bribes, and what

not. One must not underestimate the importance of magnificence. While its

importance will vary, its nature will vary more, because nearly everyone is

impressed by magnificence. Not everyone is impressed by legal

technicalities, elegant prose, genealogical claims, or sound argumentation.

Not everyone is swayed by bribes, gifts, flattery, or other trickery. The

person who has no interest in any form of magnificence is a true ascetic.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Osprey]

Kenneth, I really like your treatise on medieval/Renaissance diplomacy, Cerilian heralds, and on magnificence. Well-written&#33; :) I might add that in Celtic tradition bards operated under a similar assumption of truce and neutrality, although if they stepped in and took a side they effectively relinquished that protection. I think the same might apply to heralds and emissaries: if caught engaging in illicit activities, do they still enjoy the protection of Cuiraecen?

Mechanically, I think the embassy rules that I proposd actually do fit in with the historical model rather nicely; the 1 GB seasonal maintenance isn&#39;t too much of an expense when we figure that skilled emissaries aren&#39;t cheap to maintain at a high standard of living. The main advantage of the embassy is in their permanent

Likewise, I think palaces adding to diplomacy effects represent a display of magnificence - that is precisely their purpose.

And all of these things are quite expensive means of gaining diplomatic advantages, so I don&#39;t think we need to worry about them getting out of hand in terms of balance.