Roads in Anuire [Archive] - Birthright.net

Osprey

09-30-2003, 08:23 PM

I would guess that most currently maintained roads are based on existing trade routes. So figure out where the existing overland trade routes are, and you can pinpoint most of the roads in Cerilia.

I know the Imperial City has several trade routes going in and out of it (as it depends upon these to sustain itself). Moerele Lannaman (Maesil Shippers) has a guild(1) there, and Guilder Kalien has a guild(2) there. If Lannaman has one route, I would guess it runs all the way from Bevaldruor in Mhoried to the Imperial City. Of course, you could reason that Kalien ships grain and foodstuffs from Endier to the Imperial City, too, making for a much shorter road. (I would consider an urban province to be a different terrain type from open terrain, thus enabling trade routes between the two types. It makes sense, considering that agricultural goods would be the highest demand import).

So there at least is a road from Endier to the City of Anuire. I would simply call it the Maesil Trade Road, or even the Great Trade Road, as the Maesil must be the central trade artery of Anuire, and the roads would probably be necessary to travel upstream with any efficiency, or at least to drag barges upriver. I imagine that historically such a road probably did run the entire length of the Maesil, but it's quite possible parts of it have fallen into disrepair and aren't usable as a full highway (though still a minor road, in all likelihood).

I think there are likely roads heading east and west from the I.C. as well. Darien Avan undoubtedly has a road from Daulton to the City of Anuire (and PAI probably runs trade route #2 there). Ruins of Empire suggested that Hierl Diem controlled the eastern approaches to the City and could cut off trade, suggesting trade route #3 runs east through Ciliene. However, the Maesil Road could simply run along the western border of Ciliene and north to Moere and Endier (both of which are dominated by GK's guilds). This would leave trade route #3 open to being a naval trade route, as it must be assumed that the City of Anuire has a seaport.

Besides, it's more strategically viable (as Dossiere is no doubt aware) to have one route each from a different source, making siege that much more difficult (and requiring a naval blockade in addition to holding Ciliene and Anuire to cut off trade to the city).

Well, there's a start to our Anuirean road map.

-Osprey

Eosin the Red

09-30-2003, 09:33 PM

Ospery Wrote:

>>> I know the Imperial City has several trade routes going in and out of

it (as it depends upon these to sustain itself). Moerele Lannaman (Maesil

Shippers) has a guild(1) there, and Guilder Kalien has a guild(2) there. If

Lannaman has one route, I would guess it runs all the way from Bevaldruor in

Mhoried to the Imperial City. Of course, you could reason that Kalien ships

grain and foodstuffs from Endier to the Imperial City, too, making for a

much shorter road. (I would consider an urban province to be a different

terrain type from open terrain, thus enabling trade routes between the two

types. It makes sense, considering that agricultural goods would be the

highest demand import).

> So there at least is a road from Endier to the City of Anuire. I would

simply call it the Maesil Trade Road, or even the Great Trade Road, as the

Maesil must be the central trade artery of Anuire, and the roads would

probably be necessary to travel upstream with any efficiency, or at least to

drag barges upriver. I imagine that historically such a road probably did

run the entire length of the Maesil, but it`s quite possible parts of it

have fallen into disrepair and aren`t usable as a full highway (though still

a minor road, in all likelihood).

I think there is a road (and mentioned in the Falcon and the Wolf) that runs

along the Maesil in Alamie to Maesford and then probably has a ferry to

shuttle goods back and forth.

The Spiders test mentions nothing about a road running through modern Endier

but Moerel to IC seems logical and doubtless they have extended that road

into Endier. So, the question would be did they extend it into Ghoere or

does Ghoere use the Maesil as it`s highway into the IC?

There is not a way to cross from Ghoere to Mhoried north of

Riumache....according to the Falcon and The Wolf.

> I think there are likely roads heading east and west from the I.C. as

well. Darien Avan undoubtedly has a road from Daulton to the City of Anuire

(and PAI probably runs trade route #2 there). Ruins of Empire suggested

that Hierl Diem controlled the eastern approaches to the City and could cut

off trade, suggesting trade route #3 runs east through Ciliene. However,

the Maesil Road could simply run along the western border of Ciliene and

north to Moere and Endier (both of which are dominated by GK`s guilds).

This would leave trade route #3 open to being a naval trade route, as it

must be assumed that the City of Anuire has a seaport.

>

> Besides, it`s more strategically viable (as Dossiere is no doubt aware)

to have one route each from a different source, making siege that much more

difficult (and requiring a naval blockade in addition to holding Ciliene and

Anuire to cut off trade to the city).

The Iron Throne mentions a string of castles protecting Boeruine from Avan

and Michael Roele running through Taeghas. The Brosien Pass looks to be

ideal for an Imperial Highway but would it still be around? There is

speculation that Taeghas and Brosengae were once united (that is how

Brosengae ended as a duchy when Taeghas started as one).

Would a road trade road run from Caercas to Fairfield then onto Bhalene and

then into Mhoried (via Tornilen -> Riumache)? SRT is said to do some

business with Shieldhaven.

Eosin

destowe

09-30-2003, 09:46 PM

Osprey

09-30-2003, 10:42 PM

In the Ruins of Empire DW has a few trade routes listed. I believe one to the Sielwood and the other to Coeranys.

Perhaps these are underground tunnels (a specialty holding?) or the elves have a road in their land.

Right...I always assumed the dwarven-elven route was an overland (not underground) road from the Sielwode to Baruk-Azhik. And another road would run down to Coeranys (to the capital? - it seems likely).

The Spiders test mentions nothing about a road running through modern Endier
but Moerel to IC seems logical and doubtless they have extended that road
into Endier. So, the question would be did they extend it into Ghoere or
does Ghoere use the Maesil as it`s highway into the IC?

I figured the trade route was to Endier rather than Moere because Kalien would want to extend trade routes from his capital (where he has a monopoly and level 6 guild) to maximize profits.

It's important to note that Highways are major roads, while minor roads are assumed to be running through most developed (3+) provinces. There are only 2 practical reasons to build highways: to allow for overland trade, and for the rapid movement of armies. I've always imagined that most landed regents would encourage guildsmen to build and maintain highways and trade routes for the side benefit of trade tarrifs and rapid military deployment. So I lean toward the idea that highways are actually quite numerous throughout the developed areas of Anuire.

The original description of Travel for scions of Brenna mentions that roads connect just about every province in Anuire. It's safe to assume this refers to minor roads rather than highways, but it still points to their common existence.

As for Ghoere, I doubt a full-blown highway to the IC is necessary unless Ghorien Hiriele was trading down that way. Which is possible, of course, if she has a diplomatic agreement with someone on the route (like Kalien, for example). A road between Bhaelene (hills) and Endier (open) is quite feasible, but such a route actually existing is pure speculation. Anyone know anything "official" about the relationship between Kalien and Hiriele?

In the Northlands, there's definitely a trade road from Dhoesone into the heart of Tuarevhel (sp?). I bet Cariele also has at least one or two roads through it, as it is largely run by profit-hungry guilders. I'd expect one runs north and west into Dhoesone, and the other south into Mhoried and/or Alamie.

Eosin the Red

09-30-2003, 10:42 PM

> destowe wrote:

> In the Ruins of Empire DW has a few trade routes listed. I believe one

to the Sielwood and the other to Coeranys.

> Perhaps these are underground tunnels (a specialty holding?) or the

elves have a road in their land.

I think the BA - Sielwode one is listed as a secret tunnel.

The ones into Osoerde pose a whole world of questions. I do not see the

dwarven goods going by river. So, some sort of road must come out of BA. I

would guess that the road would run from Rivenrock to Ruorven and then

through the Spirits end? If anyone can maintain a swamp road it would be the

dwarves.

On a tangent.....There should have been a road over the Lyssan pass

(Chimeron) ....IIRC the old Empire used the pass to march troops and it is

still held by the Fortress. This road would bisect the BA to Osoerde Road.

Randy

Osprey

09-30-2003, 10:49 PM

On a tangent.....There should have been a road over the Lyssan pass
(Chimeron) ....IIRC the old Empire used the pass to march troops and it is
still held by the Fortress. This road would bisect the BA to Osoerde Road.

Randy

A minor road perhaps, but doubtless even that has fallen into disrepair - who would bother to maintain it in the last 550 years since the Empire's demise? It's probably no more than a broken footpath by now, used by occasional locals (sheepherders and trappers, perhaps) or intrepid explorers. The Chimaeron is pretty explicitly unwelcoming to travellers, according to Ruins of Empire.

Now that I think of it, I think you might be right about the secret underground road between BA and the Sielwode.

Green Knight

10-01-2003, 05:27 PM

Secert underground road? You`re kidding right? Just as the author of

Greatheart was kidding about the underground paths in Markazor?

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Subject: Re: Roads in Anuire [2#1982]

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Osprey wrote:

On a tangent.....There should have been a road over the Lyssan

pass

(Chimeron) ....IIRC the old Empire used the pass to march troops and it

is

still held by the Fortress. This road would bisect the BA to Osoerde

Road.

Randy

A minor road perhaps, but doubtless even that has fallen into disrepair

- who would bother to maintain it in the last 550 years since the

Empire`s demise? It`s probably no more than a broken footpath by now,

used by occasional locals (sheepherders and trappers, perhaps) or

intrepid explorers. The Chimaeron is pretty explicitly unwelcoming to

travellers, according to Ruins of Empire.

Now that I think of it, I think you might be right about the secret

underground road between BA and the Sielwode.

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Osprey

10-01-2003, 06:45 PM

OK, p.65 of Ruins of Empire (Trade Goods) says the following about Baruk-Azhik's trade routes: "Trade routes do run down to Ruorven in Coeranys and Shieldhaven in Moried...and a secret road runds through the Sielwode into into its capital, Siellaghriod. Other trade routes include one to Moriel and one to Ilien."

So the BA-Sielwode road is secret, but not necessarilly underground. It might be underground through Baruk-Azhik, but I doubt the elves would allow extensive tunnels beneath the forest floor. More like winding paths through a sentient forest. I would imagine the road opens (as the Sielwode is sentient) for those whom the Queen welcomes, and closes to intruders. And a road through a sentient forest certainly counts as fortified (much as highways must have fortified wayposts).

So the Sielwode-BA road would probably run from Siellaghriod through Bran's Retreat. Perhaps it originates there in the Retreat, to keep it as invisible to outsiders as possible. Being secret, it might be better to leave it off the map anyways.

BA-Ruorven (Coeranys) Road: Rivenrock - The Promontory - Cliff's Lament - Deepshadow - Caudraight - Bogsend - Ruorven.

BA - Shieldhaven (Mhoried) Road: This would split off at Deepshadow from the Coeranys Road, then skirt the southern edge of the Sielwode through Hope's Demise and Soileite in Elinie.
So it might go: Deepshadow - Hope's Demise - Soileite - Mholien - [ferry across the Maesil] - Balteruine - Bevaldruor (Shieldhaven).

BA - Moriel Road: Splits off at Bogsend - Moergen - Moriel (skirting the Bogsend and Moergen swamplands, 'cause it's easier and cheaper).

As for BA - Ilien, I imagine Diirk Watershold maintains a seaport in Ruorven, and Ilien trade ships carry the goods to and from Ilien. Thus, no extra roads needed, unless the seaport is on Ruorven's coast rather than upriver in the capital. In this case, the road would extend just a bit further (perhaps to the mouth of the river, whatever its name is; it's not named in RoE).

So that covers the Baruk-Azhik set, as far as I can tell.

geeman

10-01-2003, 07:53 PM

At 08:45 PM 10/1/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:

> So the BA-Sielwode road is secret, but not necessarilly underground. It

> might be underground through Baruk-Azhik, but I doubt the elves would

> allow extensive tunnels beneath the forest floor. More like winding

> paths through a sentient forest.

The road actually is supposed to be entirely underground. At least as far

as the part of it that is in B-A. "...a secret underground road that

travels from the heart of Baruk-Azhik just past the border of the Sielwode,

where it emerges above ground."

There`s also some text about how the dwarves are loathe to mar their

mountains with roads, preferring to use waterways and that their trading

partners come to dwarven lands rather than they travel outside their

kingdom. Presumably the traders are not let very far into B-A, and handle

cartage of goods along the (underground) roads within the borders of B-A

themselves. These goods could then be handed of to their human partners in

small, underground "towns" on the borders of the provinces.

>I would imagine the road opens (as the Sielwode is sentient) for those

>whom the Queen welcomes, and closes to intruders. And a road through a

>sentient forest certainly counts as fortified (much as highways must have

>fortified wayposts).

One of the things that might make sense for elven traders is that they need

not have roads through forested provinces. The elven ability to travel

through such terrain easily would seem to make roads redundant for

them. Trade is not, of course, a major emphasis of the elves, but

something like that would seem sensible as a racial ability at the domain

level, especially if accompanied by a general increase in the difficulty

for them to trade in the first place since it is not particularly where

their skills lie.

Gary

kgauck

10-01-2003, 07:53 PM

----- Original Message -----

From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 1:45 PM

> So the BA-Sielwode road is secret, but not necessarilly

> underground. It might be underground through Baruk-Azhik, [...]

I rather think the road is largely a route through natural caves, sometimes

crossing overland from cave to cave, sometimes linking caves by mined

tunnels, and then, as you say, "winding paths through a sentient forest."

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

Osprey

10-01-2003, 08:19 PM

There`s also some text about how the dwarves are loathe to mar their
mountains with roads, preferring to use waterways and that their trading
partners come to dwarven lands rather than they travel outside their
kingdom. Presumably the traders are not let very far into B-A, and handle
cartage of goods along the (underground) roads within the borders of B-A
themselves. These goods could then be handed of to their human partners in
small, underground "towns" on the borders of the provinces.

This might be true for dwarves in general, but I'm not so certain it aptly describes Diirk Watershold and his royal guild. He has extensive holdings in Coeranys and Osoerde, and his description suggests he is a fairly active guilder (agents wherever his guilds are, for example). Either he extensively employs humans in his foreign guilds (which must be true to a certain extent - dwarves aren't exactly the most undetectable spies in a human province), and/or there are dwarven guildsmen in the outlying guilds.

But since the Coeranys and Osoerde routes connect to Diirk's guilds, I suspect he runs those two routes at least, as well as to the borders of the Sielwode. I imagine some secret trading post where the underground road from BA emerges above the surface.

And ultimately, Diirk doesn't strike me as the typical insular dwarf...he's too savvy with foreign relations.

kgauck

10-01-2003, 09:52 PM

----- Original Message -----

From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 2:42 PM

> The road actually is supposed to be entirely underground.

This would be a logical assumption for someone who has never seen the road,

is aware it exists, has heard that it uses tunnels, and knows that dwarves

are miners. Which makes it a supposition, not neccesarily a true statement.

> There`s also some text about how the dwarves are loathe to mar their

> mountains with roads, preferring to use waterways

This presumes that we back off the construction emphasis of dwarves, which I

am not inclined to do. Master artisans generally don`t have a hostility to

the artifcial. Like most such builder folk, I imagine they think their

construction of tunnels, walls, columns, and indeed roads, actually improve

the mountains.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

destowe

10-01-2003, 10:51 PM

With Points East Trading Guild out of Elinie having some holdings in B-A, I would think they would be willing to maintain the road in Elinie.

It would be logical that there is a trade route between B-A and Elinie, so there needs to be some sort of route.

geeman

10-02-2003, 11:18 AM

At 04:44 PM 10/1/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> > The road actually is supposed to be entirely underground.

>

>This would be a logical assumption for someone who has never seen the road,

>is aware it exists, has heard that it uses tunnels, and knows that dwarves

>are miners. Which makes it a supposition, not neccesarily a true statement.

The quote regarding the underground nature of the road from B-A to the

Sielwode comes from what reads like expository text rather than colour text

in the assets and holdings section of PSoB-A. Unlike other BR texts like

the Atlas of Cerilia, the colourful parts of that particular PS book are

pretty clearly delineated--even labelled with headings--from the expository

ones, so I don`t think that bit of text was meant to convey a mistaken

in-character narrative or ironical bias.

> > There`s also some text about how the dwarves are loathe to mar their

> > mountains with roads, preferring to use waterways

>

>This presumes that we back off the construction emphasis of dwarves, which I

>am not inclined to do. Master artisans generally don`t have a hostility to

>the artifcial. Like most such builder folk, I imagine they think their

>construction of tunnels, walls, columns, and indeed roads, actually improve

>the mountains.

We don`t have to back off their construction emphasis if we also recognize

its purpose and the broader efforts and themes of Cerilian

dwarves. Tunnels, walls and columns improve the mountains interior--and

dwarves would probably take the same satisfaction in them that human

craftsmen would--but roads would mar the mountains exterior, which is what

the dwarves are described as trying to avoid. In addition to the material

in the PSoB-A text, the Ruins of Empire entry on Baruk-Azhik: "The dwarves

have done little to mar the outer surface of the mountains--instead they

concentrate on building fortresses within."

The question, however, is why should that be an emphasis of dwarves? It

needs to be pointed out that Cerilian dwarves are not adverse to

interacting with other races, they just don`t want them in their

homes. Dwarves are described as being perfectly happy to travel abroad

trading goods or working as mercenaries. They just don`t want others

traipsing about their own domain, mingling with their communities, learning

their secrets or vulnerabilities, and they`re willing to do things like try

to keep the exterior of their mountains as pristine (and inhospitable) as

possible in order prevent others from visiting. Hence, dwarves want to

handle their trade with outsiders outside their domain as much as possible,

and thus their emphasis on underground life and travel.

Avoiding changes to the exterior of their mountainous demesne is a specific

emphasis of the Cerilian dwarven outlook, not only for reasons involving

their stewardship of the mountains--which may or may not actually even be a

major aspect of their thinking--but due to their generally insular

nature. Roads not only mar the mountainside, but most of them lead to a

door, which opens up to a cave, which leads to a city, and that invites

visitors. Where dwarves in other settings might not have a problem with

castles and other above ground construction, the dwarves in those settings

are described as being more interested in interaction with other races on

their own ground--or are, at least, not as carefully described in this

regard as Cerilian dwarves are.

So the big picture here is that when it comes to a construction emphasis

there`s a LOT more work that has to go on for people to live

underground--particularly if there`s going to be a system of underground

roads over several thousand square miles of land--while keeping the surface

area unmarked. It actually gives dwarves a much more serious construction

emphasis than any other race of Cerilia, or any other race in D&D that I

can think of... even ones based on entirely subterranean species like the

drow or kuo-toa. Those races are not as concerned with surface indications

of their underground realms, and that would require much less effort,

attention to detail and skill to conceal on their part.

Gary

ConjurerDragon

10-02-2003, 03:21 PM

Bjørn Eian Sørgjerd schrieb:

>Secert underground road? You`re kidding right? Just as the author of

>Greatheart was kidding about the underground paths in Markazor?

>

>

Why kidding? Moria from Lord of the Rings through which Mithrandir leads

the companions, or the Hall of Kings through which Allanon leads his

would be fine examples for extensive underground complexes through which

the dwarves could travel.

And as a goblin of Markazor I would rather tunnel my way secretly into

any of the neighbouring forests instead of moving adjacent to their

border on the ground where the elves certainly make a pincushion out of

anything that closes within range of a longbow ;-)

bye

Michael

Osprey

10-02-2003, 04:31 PM

The question, however, is why should that be an emphasis of dwarves? It
needs to be pointed out that Cerilian dwarves are not adverse to
interacting with other races, they just don`t want them in their
homes. Dwarves are described as being perfectly happy to travel abroad
trading goods or working as mercenaries. They just don`t want others
traipsing about their own domain, mingling with their communities, learning
their secrets or vulnerabilities, and they`re willing to do things like try
to keep the exterior of their mountains as pristine (and inhospitable) as
possible in order prevent others from visiting. Hence, dwarves want to
handle their trade with outsiders outside their domain as much as possible,
and thus their emphasis on underground life and travel.

I would tend to agree with this - it's more congruent with my general impressions of B-A trade (see my last post).

I imagine the dwarves keeping trading posts on their borders to make this possible.

However, how do we explain all the foreign guilds within the heart of Baruk-Azhik? Those are human-run guilds (like Points East). Do they work only through proxy, or are certain humans allowed within but sworn to secrecy after gaining the trust of the dwarves?

I've always been in favor of Diirk working to change this and gain a monopoly in B-A, but I can't change what's laid out in RoE.

kgauck

10-02-2003, 05:20 PM

----- Original Message -----

From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 5:56 AM

> The quote regarding the underground nature of the road from B-A to the

> Sielwode comes from what reads like expository text rather than colour

text

Its all color text because the players have read it and I`m gonna change

half of it. I`m willing to save the appearances of the PS by explainaing

why its wrong. Either way, no statement in the PS is reliable. So either

the PS is full of errors or its full of fallible observations. Because I

provide a theory for interpreting the PS, players still have a way to

interpret the PS even though they know not to expect literal truth.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

geeman

10-02-2003, 07:16 PM

At 11:53 AM 10/2/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> > The quote regarding the underground nature of the road from B-A to the

> > Sielwode comes from what reads like expository text rather than colour text

>

>Its all color text because the players have read it and I`m gonna change

>half of it. I`m willing to save the appearances of the PS by explainaing

>why its wrong. Either way, no statement in the PS is reliable. So either

>the PS is full of errors or its full of fallible observations. Because I

>provide a theory for interpreting the PS, players still have a way to

>interpret the PS even though they know not to expect literal truth.

Of course it`s always that case that you have control over what is colour

text for the purpose of your sessions, and can tell players that none of

the material in the PS texts (or any of the texts, really) is literally

true in any way--that it`s all colour text. The point here, however, is

not how you decide to use the original materials in your homebrew. It`s

whether the writers meant some a particular bit of text to be somehow

inaccurate because its based on a character`s perspective or some campaign

theme, as is done fairly regularly in the original BR materials. For most

of the BR colour commentary there are a simple, obvious cues that it is

in-character or otherwise hazy in regards to truth value.

In this particular case, it`s pretty clearly meant as literal text, so for

the sake of this discussion--what roads exist in Anuire--it is very strong

evidence that the roads in B-A really are meant to be underground. Of

course, one can discard that in a homebrew, or describe it as commentary

rather than factual if one had some reason for doing so. In the absence of

some extended campaign theme, however, I don`t think it`s very strong as

colour commentary since it doesn`t really seem to convey much colour for

dwarves to all _think_ their roads are underground when they`re not

really. There are more significant themes of dwarven character that

support it being factual (as outlined in the previous post.) It would also

be a rather strange thing to spring on a player whose PC lived or even

ruled B-A for him to somehow not know that roads actually were aboveground

despite that bit of text, so even defining it as colour commentary isn`t

very useful since it would fall in either in the "Common Dwarven Knowledge"

or "Fairly Quickly Noticeable" columns. It would work better as colour

commentary for human (or other non-dwarf) adventurers travelling through

B-A to think all dwarven roads were underground if one really wanted to

emphasize the alien nature of Cerilian dwarves. Again, I think there are

campaign themes and aspects of Cerilian dwarves that make it stronger as

literal truth rather than colour.

One could even extend the thinking regarding dwarves not wanting to show

the locations of their cities by having them build roads that looked like

natural, unworked stone. That doesn`t really address their concerns

regarding an invading army and the fortification of their realm, but it

does follow along with both their construction and craftsmanship efforts

while still meshing with their desire for secrecy.

Personally, I don`t think it`s very reasonable that dwarven roads would be

entirely, absolutely, 100% underground. It makes sense that there might be

the occasional stretch above ground--but probably still not particularly

accessible to non-dwarves. That is, the above ground portions of dwarven

roads might be analogous to above ground bridges or fjords--places where an

underground passage would be less practical than a short walk in the open

air. Where a road runs into a canyon, for instance, it might be sensible

to have a short crossing throught that canyon rather than dig a tunnel in a

loop around it. If we compare to a modern, human highway through a rocky

terrain, in some places its more sensible to tunnel rather than to build a

road around the curvature of the earth. Likewise, an underground dwarven

road probably would run into the occasional area where a short stretch

might go above ground for similar reasons.

A smidge of above ground travel here and there is a little different,

however, from saying that the statement that their roads are underground is

somehow colour text. Rather it would strike me as being more like the

exception that proved the rule.

Gary

kgauck

10-02-2003, 09:21 PM

----- Original Message -----

From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 1:36 PM

> The point here, however, is not how you decide to use the original

> materials in your homebrew.

No, the point is when developing new ideas derived from the original

materials what weight should be given to the fact that something was

printed. My argument is that little weight should be given to it. Its

evidence, it might point to a direction, but its not the last word.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

irdeggman

10-02-2003, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by geeman@Oct 2 2003, 06:18 AM
The question, however, is why should that be an emphasis of dwarves? It

needs to be pointed out that Cerilian dwarves are not adverse to

interacting with other races, they just don`t want them in their

homes. Dwarves are described as being perfectly happy to travel abroad

trading goods or working as mercenaries. They just don`t want others

traipsing about their own domain, mingling with their communities, learning

their secrets or vulnerabilities, and they`re willing to do things like try

to keep the exterior of their mountains as pristine (and inhospitable) as

possible in order prevent others from visiting. Hence, dwarves want to

handle their trade with outsiders outside their domain as much as possible,

and thus their emphasis on underground life and travel.

Gary

I tend to have a different view of Cerilian dwarves. I see them as more insuler, of course there is always an exception to every rule (Diirk).

References to why (or why not) Cerilian dwarves are isolationists.

BRRB
Dwarves (pg 5) – “Cerilian dwarves usually adhere to a friendly neutrality; thus, they are on good terms with most other races, including the elves. They’re masterful craftsmen and traders; dwarven caravans roam from Anuire to Vos laden with their goods. Dwarven arms and armor are the best in Cerilia, and it is not uncommon to see dwarves selling their services as mercenaries.” {This is the only reference to Cerilian dwarves frequently roaming the lands trading, most of the other references imply (or state) that the dwarves prefer to have others bring goods to them.}

Atlas of Cerilia
Dwarves - “This is part of the reason that they prefer not to deal with outsiders – visitors distract the sentries.”

Ruins of the Empire
Baruk-Azhik – Regent – “He acts friendly to proven friends of the dwarven cause and supports his people’s ventures enthusiastically, but finds little reason to seek companions outside his own race. He does not disdain humans, but he wants them to prove their worth before he trusts them with any task or treasure of value.”
Trade Goods – “However, dwarven goods leave the kingdom only infrequently, as the dwarves tend to trade only among themselves.”

Player’s Secrets of Baruk-Azhik
See timeline 530 “5 provinces of Baruk-Azhik seal their doors to the outside world”
(p 12) under culture “Because dwarves are insular in nature and never dwell outside their own realms, humans have had no real opportunities to learn their ways. Furthermore, human visitors to the dwarven realms are exceedingly rare; it would be safe to speculate that half the dwarven cities in Cerilia have never known a human footfall.”
{While I don’t go with using the Player’s Secrets books as any sort of canon, this section is consistent with other sources’ description of dwarven behavior.}

Havens of the Great Bay
Daikhar Zhigun
“Less insular than their brethren to the east, the dwarves of Daikhar Zhigun still view outsiders warily.”
The Overlook
The Dwarven Realm – “They welcome trade with other realms, but only a little at a time and after much negotiation.”

Rjurik Highlands
Khurin-Azur
“Though trade contacts with the outside world are limited, a trickle of goods drifts in and out of the dwarven fortress.”
Allies – “The dwarves, victims of the stubborn pride that is the bane of their race, have no allies in the world.”
Tjorgrim Stonesoul – “Unlike most other dwarves, Tjorgrim has grown more tolerant of outsiders as he has aged. The decline of his people is unmistakable evidence, as far as the Stonelord is concerned, that the dwarves cannot continue to exist in isolation, and that human dominion over Cerilia is an unpleasant but unchangeable fact.”

Legend of the Hero-Kings
Dwarven Steel – many references to “isolationism” This also points out that Diirk is the point of contact between BA and the outside world.

Osprey

10-02-2003, 09:53 PM

Trade Goods – “However, dwarven goods leave the kingdom only infrequently, as the dwarves tend to trade only among themselves.”

I found this incosistent with the text following that passage, which mentions a large number of trade routes for such arelatively small realm. It seemed pretty contradictory.

Player’s Secrets of Baruk-Azhik
See timeline 530 “5 provinces of Baruk-Azhik seal their doors to the outside world”
(p 12) under culture “Because dwarves are insular in nature and never dwell outside their own realms, humans have had no real opportunities to learn their ways. Furthermore, human visitors to the dwarven realms are exceedingly rare; it would be safe to speculate that half the dwarven cities in Cerilia have never known a human footfall.”
{While I don’t go with using the Player’s Secrets books as any sort of canon, this section is consistent with other sources’ description of dwarven behavior.}

I think it's a more extreme position than the other statements, a seeming exaggeration of general tendencies implied in previous publications.

I do agree with your statement concerning Diirk. He seems to play a vital role as liasion between dwarves and humans, and has built his guild's wealth and power as a result.

-Osprey

geeman

10-02-2003, 10:42 PM

At 03:52 PM 10/2/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> > The point here, however, is not how you decide to use the original

> > materials in your homebrew.

>

>No, the point is when developing new ideas derived from the original

>materials what weight should be given to the fact that something was

>printed. My argument is that little weight should be given to it. Its

>evidence, it might point to a direction, but its not the last word.

It`s not the last word, but it is not the fact that something was printed

that determines its truth value in campaign material. More important is

the manner in which it was written to determining the weight it should be

given. The text in question was expository, not colour commentary and is,

therefore, more credible than you`re suggesting. Where we might take

something in the Atlas of Cerilia with a grain of salt because it was

written from the POV of an Anuirean noble, or the obviously colourful

introductory text under "An Address by Wulfram Wainier" in the PSoB-A, the

text in question is not of that type, so we needn`t add any salt.

One can certainly debate how realistic, how smart, reasonable, etc. that

text might be, but whether it was actually intended to mean what it says is

pretty clear. Aside from it being expository, it`s also supported by text

from other sources in the campaign material. Both Ruins of Empire and the

Rulebook have statements that would support the concept, which helps

substantiate it. Its also supported by ancillary information about the

attitudes of Cerilian dwarves, their motivations and culture.

Is there anything in the published materials to indicate it isn`t true?

Gary

kgauck

10-02-2003, 10:42 PM

My view was to divide dwarves politically at home between the isolationists

and the human friendly (and also those who sought a special relationship

between Sielwode and Baruk-Azhik). This conviniently explains all the

quotes (because they apply to different segments of the dwarven body

politic) and it sets up fruitful game play in political disagreement. It

also demonstrates the utility of the notion that all text be regarded as

subjective, not objective.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

Eosin the Red

10-02-2003, 10:42 PM

Roads in Anuire:

Alrighty, while the question of BA still hangs in the air, there are other areas that need addressing.

Does anybody know of any reference that would indicate a road through Medoere and into Diemed? If one did remain, it would seem to me that it would go through Moonstrike Pass.

I still waffle on a road through Brosengae to Taeghas...Most of this road would need to be paid for by Taeghas and Avanil and I would not see this being considered a stirling idea given EM`s hunger for the province of Brosen. The frequently stormy wesrtern coast does make naval trade routes less attractive.

Trade Routes in Talinie also raise some questions - it seems almost impossible to make money off of those routes but it is managed somehow? What Trade Roads should be present? Does the Road travelling north from Boeruine turn east into Lindholme?

Randy~Eosin

geeman

10-02-2003, 11:18 PM

At 06:31 PM 10/2/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:

> However, how do we explain all the foreign guilds within the heart of

> Baruk-Azhik? Those are human-run guilds (like Points East). Do they

> work only through proxy, or are certain humans allowed within but sworn

> to secrecy after gaining the trust of the dwarves?

Probably the most logical solution is that once the goods reach the

borders, dwarves take over the transportation of the goods. Those dwarves

might nominally work for the guild, but they remain loyal to B-A and thus

don`t reveal any secrets about the dwarven nature to outsiders.

> I`ve always been in favor of Diirk working to change this and gain a

> monopoly in B-A, but I can`t change what`s laid out in RoE.

Sure you could, but even if you`re loathe to, you could time advance a year

or ten into the campaign`s timeline and play with B-A`s guilds

"nationalized" into the state....

Gary

kgauck

10-03-2003, 12:51 AM

----- Original Message -----

From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 5:26 PM

> More important is the manner in which it was written to determining

> the weight it should be given.

Not when its all so questionable that reason requires that a huge portion of

it abandon. What you say would make sense if the text made sense.

> The text in question was expository, not colour commentary and is,

> therefore, more credible than you`re suggesting.

I can tell the difference, I`m not daft. My problem is that the so-called

expository text is an incredible as quotes from Bob the drunken sailor.

Hence, I can`t give greater credance to the intended expository as I do to

the intended color. So, (he says to the wall) I advocate regarding all of

the text as color.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

geeman

10-03-2003, 02:02 AM

At 06:59 PM 10/2/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> > More important is the manner in which it was written to determining

> > the weight it should be given.

>

>Not when its all so questionable that reason requires that a huge portion of

>it abandon. What you say would make sense if the text made sense.

Well, you`re the only one who has suggested that there`s more to abandon

than keep in the PS books. Most of the material in those texts is simple

elaboration, and doesn`t really rise to the level of needing to be

abandoned IMO. There are certainly things in various PS`s that I don`t

like, but I still say that the PS texts are by and large solid. I even

think they contain fewer problems per page than just about any other of the

BR materials. There`s no chapter dedicated to battlespells, no strange new

garradalaighs, the things that are vague are more likely intentionally so

(because they are meant to be read by both player and DM.) The numbers

presented--though unrealistic--at least follow some sort of logic. They

don`t introduce anything as strange as a 3x5 battlemap for the very weird

warcard system. The goofy aspects of the PS texts aren`t any goofier than

the occasional paragraphs on lesser er-/awnsheghlien in Blood Enemies, and

they don`t tend to do things like omit a whole set of wizard levels for

primary characters and spawn massive debate on that character`s actual

stats (though BE is otherwise a pretty solid piece of work.) The maps

aren`t earth shattering, but they compare favorably to most other D&D

products of the time, and in a few cases are superior to newer D20

products. The BR adventures are generally much more problematic than any

of the PS texts what with the appearance of monkey gods and extraplanar

travellers--with the exception of the LotHK which is IMO the best of all BR

products.

> > The text in question was expository, not colour commentary and is,

> > therefore, more credible than you`re suggesting.

>

>I can tell the difference, I`m not daft. My problem is that the so-called

>expository text is an incredible as quotes from Bob the drunken sailor.

If you were more specific about what was so incredible about it then maybe

your point would be clearer. What is so unbelievable about the underground

roads for B-A`s dwarves?

Gary

kgauck

10-03-2003, 04:13 AM

----- Original Message -----

From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 8:39 PM

> Well, you`re the only one who has suggested that there`s more to

> abandon than keep in the PS books.

I didn`t realize I was supposed to be speaking for a constituancy.

> If you were more specific about what was so incredible about it then maybe

> your point would be clearer. What is so unbelievable about the

underground

> roads for B-A`s dwarves?

The idea that they are permenent underground dwellers (and so would build

permement underground roads) is at work here, and we just went over that.

Underground roads are especially vulnerable to attack by anyone with spells

of the earth descriptor, and many of these have an area effect. While such

an investment is certainly not beyond the dwarves, given their ill

propensity to travel about, its not worth the investment. What makes more

sense given that dwarves exist at the plane of the surface, but operate just

beneath that plane, rather than just above it, given that they don`t want to

create vulnerabilities by creating targets for orogs or spellcasters (let

alone orog spellcasters), and that they would not likely make the investment

in such a road tunnel. What makes more sense is a known path which winds

through natural caves and rough places such that others would never even

recognize it as a road, especially when it is so little traveled.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

irdeggman

10-03-2003, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by geeman@Oct 2 2003, 09:02 PM
Well, you`re the only one who has suggested that there`s more to abandon

than keep in the PS books. Most of the material in those texts is simple

elaboration, and doesn`t really rise to the level of needing to be

abandoned IMO. There are certainly things in various PS`s that I don`t

like, but I still say that the PS texts are by and large solid. I even

think they contain fewer problems per page than just about any other of the

BR materials. There`s no chapter dedicated to battlespells, no strange new

garradalaighs, the things that are vague are more likely intentionally so

(because they are meant to be read by both player and DM.) The numbers

presented--though unrealistic--at least follow some sort of logic. They

don`t introduce anything as strange as a 3x5 battlemap for the very weird

warcard system. The goofy aspects of the PS texts aren`t any goofier than

the occasional paragraphs on lesser er-/awnsheghlien in Blood Enemies, and

they don`t tend to do things like omit a whole set of wizard levels for

primary characters and spawn massive debate on that character`s actual

stats (though BE is otherwise a pretty solid piece of work.) The maps

aren`t earth shattering, but they compare favorably to most other D&D

products of the time, and in a few cases are superior to newer D20

products. The BR adventures are generally much more problematic than any

of the PS texts what with the appearance of monkey gods and extraplanar

travellers--with the exception of the LotHK which is IMO the best of all BR

products.

Gary

I for one also think that the PS (as a whole) are mostly nothing but color text. I find that they tend (again there are always exceptions) to be more internally and externally inconsistent than the other major products (Expansions, BoM, BoP), note that Blood Enemies is one of the worst for consistancy and editorials. For one the Roesone PS (the first one published) has statements referring to half elves being common in the land. This is in absolute contradiction to the core rules which describe human and half-elf interactions. Taking into account that Roesone was formed on lands that were once covered by the old forests (Erebannian) and are now plains - it doesn't make any sense why the relationship between the two races should be very good at all in the Southern Coast regions.

I tend to pick up nuggets from the PS and view them more along the lines of the way I look at the novels, good for color and filler but not meant as a source for rules and mechanics. There is a difference between describing regional holdings, units, etc. and who does what or how things relate to each other. IMO the former can be interpreted as expounding on the core rules (Ruins of Empire, Cities in the Sun, etc.) for domains.