Good And Evil In Anuire [Archive]

kgauck

09-18-2003, 10:11 PM

I agree with Daniel McSorley that the best villains are produced when

someone is confronted with competing goods (protecting nature and protecting

the Rjurik people) but the balance of these goods gets out of wack (its

actually good for the people to throw themselves in great numbers against

the humanoids, it reduces the humanoid threat and leaves more land to fall

back into a pristine condition) and leads to harm.

There are also traditional and obvious rivalries (Boeruine-Avan,

Haelyn-Seramie, &c) which can be used as a back drop for other kinds of

villans. Within the conext of a war against a traditional enemy you can

realize that one of your generals is too ambitious for your safety and that

one of your key priests is dripping with bloodlust to destroy an enemy. Do

you sacrifice your amitions in the war to reign in your own side, and get

control of your ambitious general and bloodthirsy priest, or do you continue

the war and risk brutal attrocities as a result of the priest`s influence

and a Great Captain?

Then of course there are all of the abominations, who I think have the

balance of the evil assence of Azrai, beyond the evil Vos gods. They make

good classic enemies of the stark variety. Since people will tend to rally

against them (even Boeruine and Avan would probabaly cease their own

fighting, and possibly join forces to repulse the Manslayer) they need to be

used for stark example or they need to mastermind subtle machinations so

that even if PC`s uncover a plot, no one really believes them. Other rulers

will just say, "Yeah, maybe, but Kalien had a lot of enemies, including you.

Say this wouldn`t be an attempt to divert the blame for something you did,

would it?"

In my Barik-Azhik campaign I had the following enemies for the overthane and

his court: The Gorgon was at war with the Sielwode, kidnapped crafter

dwarves to use as slave labor, and when B-A supported Brand Mournsinger he

invaded B-A; The Chimera was up to no good, not near the threat of the

Gorgon, but you could not ignore her either; there was a civil war in

Rhormarch; Binsada was clamoring for war against anyone; Duke Jaison of

Osoerde wanted to crush the Royal Guild of Baruk-Azhik because he believed

(rightly) they were supporting William Moergan leading to a very chilly

relationship and several war scares; the High Priest, Ruarck Rockhammer,

thought the overthane too youthful, impetuous, and inexperienced, and tried

to run things from behind the scenes all for the good of B-A and in the name

of Moradin; there were cults in B-A to the gods of the Deuro and Duergar in

which the followers of the cults were mostly not even aware they had fallen

away from Moradin. The main allies of the overthane (even his PC allies to

some extent) were were comprimised by various problems. Diirk Watershold

had his own enemies, Bain Earthkore was feared within court for his

ambition, the overthane himself was criticized for his warm relations with

humans, his youth, his refusal to marry, his aggressive foriegn policy (he

did provoke the Gorgon into invading), and his coolness to the High Priest

of Moradin. Just the shear length of this list should provide you with the

idea that there was never a shortage of enemies for the overthane, and often

he had to let one enemy go (hopefully to attend later) while he dealt with

another.

In my Taelshore campaign I started off with the players as heirs and other

scions, but the king of Stjordvik, who the players ultimatly decided to

support, was beset by an apathetic nobility in addition to one rebellious

and one near rebellious eorl; a dangerous guiler (Storm Holtson) who ran the

economy of the Taelshore and brooked no interfearance, who killed royal

agents who annoyed him, and angered the druids with his rapaciousness; the

hostile realm of Rjuvik who not only raided across the border but also

harbored enemies of the PC`s and the king and supported the rebellious eorl

Guthrim; the Blood Skull Barony with its endless supply of humanoids; the

White Witch was engaged in setting up her own influence in the realm in such

a way that it could not be detected, and the traditional rulers thought they

still controled the holdings in question; the conflict between the more

settled and urban south, the rural pastoral/agricultural north, and the

unsettled tribes forming a hostile triangle of relations; the collpase of

Halskapa into civil war with the death of Berving; the antipathy of the

Emerald Spire for a list of reasons including support for moderate guilders,

promoting the developement of the urban south, and relying on too many

druids from the Oaken Grove; and the perennial threat that the elves would

start a race war somewhere. Again the allies were comprimised. The Oaken

Grove`s assistance provoked the Emerald Spire. The friendly guilds were far

smaller than Storm, and provoked him as well. The friendly eorls regarded

the king as a vapid idiot and didn`t want to commit anything to him, and yet

the hostile eorls would have balked at an assertive king. Dhoesone could do

little more than utter pretty words. Talinie wasn`t sure if she cared what

happened to Stjordvik, even when some of her nobles ran off to get involved

in things there. Stjordvik as no friendly border, except for Dhoesone.

Again, no shortage of enemies, or at least hostiles, and too few friends.

I can make trouble for any realm. :-)

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

Green Knight

09-19-2003, 07:38 AM

Awnsheghlien

The Shadow World

The Sidhe (who must certainly appear evil to the average Anuirean)

Entire nations of more or less evil humanoids

Priests of good gods who may evil

Just because the gods are good, that doesn`t mean their clerics can`t be evil.

Regents can be evil - I`d say there are quite a few who have resources enought to be considered MAJOR villains

etc.

There are more than enough evil in Anuire...

Cheers

Bjørn

-------------------------------------------------

WebMail fra Tele2 http://www.tele2.no

-------------------------------------------------

Raesene Andu

09-19-2003, 08:03 AM

One thing to consider about Azrai, his power, and the current arrangement is that when compared to the other gods, a lot of Azrai's power seems to have been misplaced.

Certainly the Awnsheghlien are powerful but there aren't a huge number of them when compared to the number of Blooded scions who have bloodlines derived from the "good" gods. One reason that the Awnsheghlien are so powerful now is bloodtheft, stealing the bloodpower of slain foes has enabled them to rise above the rest of the scions in Cerilia.

Also consider that Azrai was powerful enough to challenge and nearly defeat the combined powers of 6 other ancient gods. Now they may have been weakened due to Azrai's influence in Aduria and Cerilia, but the gods the replaced them still rose to become a lot more powerful than the gods who replaced Azrai...

So a lot of Azrai's power has just disappeared. In my current campaign, what happened was that when Azrai died the majority of his power was transferred into the Shadow World, corrupting it. His most loyal followers (the lost) and all those who died at Deismaar also followed the dark god to the SW (to become the undead) changing that land. So the corruption that is eating away at the SW is, in fact, Azrai and the Cold Rider is the physical manifestation of Azrai's power, still no strong enough to be truely aware, but slowly returning.

destowe

09-19-2003, 01:20 PM

That is a very good idea.

I can imagine the blast at Desimaar ripping a large whole in reality and transfering large amount of people and physical material in the SW.

The blast of Azrai's power displaced the souls and spirits of mortals to make the intelligent undead. So Azrai's essence could be the type of anit-soul that is mentioned in another threat (Elven healing in the BRCS, I think.)

Would that make undead template a type of blooded scion? It could easily account for much of Azrai's missing presence.

A second point. I am not real familar with the SW. But it sounds like the blast at Desimaar would have only destroyed the mountain on the Anuirean side. Would the mountain still exist on the SW. Perhaps by now it is the resting place of the Cold Rider and his armies.

ConjurerDragon

09-19-2003, 09:08 PM

destowe schrieb:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=1964

>

> destowe wrote:

> That is a very good idea.

>

> I can imagine the blast at Desimaar ripping a large whole in reality and transfering large amount of people and physical material in the SW.

>

> The blast of Azrai`s power displaced the souls and spirits of mortals to make the intelligent undead. So Azrai`s essence could be the type of anit-soul that is mentioned in another threat (Elven healing in the BRCS, I think.)

>

> Would that make undead template a type of blooded scion? It could easily account for much of Azrai`s missing presence.

>

The description of the Turn Undead Battle Spell in the 2E Book of

Priestcraft mentions "hordes" of minimally blooded undead after Deismaar

- this could support your suggestion...

bye

Michael

Osprey

09-20-2003, 05:44 AM

How the heck could undead have a Blooded descriptor? Divine power, sure, but in the form of a bloodline? :blink:

Prospero

09-20-2003, 05:45 AM

Just as there are very few "villains" in real life, I feel there should be very few "villains" in Birthright. To Medoere, Diemed is an oppressive tyrant who would love to bloodthirstily invade their realm. To Diemed, Medoere is a region torn from them by an insane cult under the leadership of the daughter and murderess of the last administrator of the region.

It all depends on your point of view, and that's as it should be. I think that one or two "villains", like the Gorgon, and everyone else in shades of gray works better than thirty villains and thirty white knights.

destowe

09-20-2003, 03:18 PM

Yes "blooded" sounds werid for undead. But Usurpation allows the divine energy to enter animals and sometimes inanimate objects, so it is just a term for me.

I assume that the blast at Desimaar flooded the area with the divine energy.

Perhaps there is only archtype of the intelligent undead, or a very small number.

As the Hydra gave birth to the hydras in the swamps, perhaps these few"blooded" undead are the creators (or at least controllers) of the lesser intelligent undead.

irdeggman

09-20-2003, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Osprey@Sep 20 2003, 12:44 AM
How the heck could undead have a Blooded descriptor? Divine power, sure, but in the form of a bloodline? :blink:
IN 2nd ed, just because a scion died didn't mean he was no longer blooded. He no longer had any regency and his tie to the land but there was nothing that really stated he lost his bloodline unless he was slain through the heart.

irdeggman

09-20-2003, 05:02 PM

Not all enemies need to be evil. In Birthright alignments are more greyed than in say the Realms. Motivations determine whether or not someone is an enemy. Avan and Boeroine are most definitely enemies but neither is "evil".

geeman

09-20-2003, 06:25 PM

At 05:18 PM 9/20/2003 +0200, destowe wrote:

> Yes "blooded" sounds werid for undead. But Usurpation allows

> the divine energy to enter animals and sometimes inanimate objects, so it

> is just a term for me.

>

> I assume that the blast at Desimaar flooded the area with the divine energy.

>

> Perhaps there is only archtype of the intelligent undead, or a very

> small number.

A bloodline for a vampire sounds doable... especially with the whole stab

through the heart similarity.

Other undead, however, being less fleshy or tied to things of the flesh

(and blood) are less vulnerable to chest wounds and might, therefore, not

necessarily be apt for bloodlines. Those who are shifted into another

plane might be similarly inappropriate, since it`s debatable what happens

to a bloodline when it is away from Aebrynis.

Gary

Doyle

09-20-2003, 11:04 PM

IMC, Mount Desimaar still exists on the SW, and holds the SW`s only

level 10 source point. All that negative energy from the deaths of so

many has got to spill out in a number of ways.

If the Cold Rider does hold a large proportion of Azrai`s essence

(accounts for the missing essence), couldn`t he / she imbue some of the

more powerful undead with some bloodline to better guard his / her

lands?

Doyle

-----Original Message-----

From: Destowe

<snip>

Would that make undead template a type of blooded scion? It could

easily account for much of Azrai`s missing presence.

A second point. I am not real familar with the SW. But it sounds like

the blast at Desimaar would have only destroyed the mountain on the

Anuirean side. Would the mountain still exist on the SW. Perhaps by

now it is the resting place of the Cold Rider and his armies.

irdeggman

09-20-2003, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by Doyle@Sep 20 2003, 06:04 PM
IMC, Mount Desimaar still exists on the SW, and holds the SW`s only

level 10 source point. All that negative energy from the deaths of so

many has got to spill out in a number of ways.

If the Cold Rider does hold a large proportion of Azrai`s essence

(accounts for the missing essence), couldn`t he / she imbue some of the

more powerful undead with some bloodline to better guard his / her

lands?

Doyle

Except for the fact that a bloodline is not a granted thing. They only came about because of the "death" and the spilt blood of the former gods. IMO is a dangerous thing to try to create a method for creating new ways to create bloodlines other than the death of a god.

In 2nd ed it wasn't possible to pass a portion of one's bloodline it was either the entire thing or none at all. So the mechanic of imbuing a creature with a portion of one's bloodline is shaky at best.

Also what bloodline would the CR pass? It shouldn't be Azrai, since even if it holds a large portion of Azrai's blood it is different enough to be a unique creature of its own. Would Haelyn pass on Andurias bloodline or his own if he died so violently? IMO it would be his own which would have different aspects than does Anduirias'.

Doyle

09-21-2003, 01:43 AM

I was going on the `the CR is what was remaining of Azrai after the

battle` theory. Also, isn`t there some spell `imbue bloodline` or

something like that? It may have been something I got from a post long

ago that was never formally integrated in.

Doyle.

-----Original Message-----

From: irdeggman

<snip>

Also what bloodline would the CR pass? It shouldn`t be Azrai, since

even if it holds a large portion of Azrai`s blood it is different enough

to be a unique creature of its own. Would Haelyn pass on Andurias

bloodline or his own if he died so violently? IMO it would be his own

which would have different aspects than does Anduirias`.

kgauck

09-21-2003, 02:08 AM

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 6:11 PM

> Except for the fact that a bloodline is not a granted thing.

I believe we are talking about bloodline investiture (p81 BoP) with the

alteration that one can invest a part of one`s bloodline. Alternatly, the

bloodline is taken by force from captives and bloodline investiture is used

to "imbue some of the

more powerful undead with some bloodline". Whether the source of this

bloodline is captives, defeated enemies, the Cold Rider, or some other

source, its transmitted by bloodline investiture.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

DanMcSorley

09-21-2003, 03:55 AM

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003, irdeggman wrote:

> Except for the fact that a bloodline is not a granted thing. They only

> came about because of the "death" and the spilt blood of the

> former gods. IMO is a dangerous thing to try to create a method for

> creating new ways to create bloodlines other than the death of a god.

Well, canonically, Azrai was doing /something/ to create the Lost prior to

Deismaar. They were the moral equivalent of blooded, since they were

humans who could cast true magic. It`s not too far fetched for the Cold

Rider to be able to pull off something similar, if he`s the remnant of

Azrai in your game.

Mechanically, there are other precedents, for instance, a deity granting

proxyhoood (to use Planescape/3rd edition D&Dg terms) looks remarkably

like granting part of its divine bloodline to a servant. The deity`s

divine rank goes down, the proxy gains those ranks for itself. It gets

salient blood abilities, too, which is the D&Dg version of blood abilities

for someone with a one-step-beyond True bloodline status. From a certain

point of view :)

--

Daniel McSorley

Osprey

09-21-2003, 04:23 PM

Personally, I'm not much of a fan of undead with bloodlines. Blood is the source of life, just as the heart is the source of the blood. This is very central to BR's themes, as I see it, and shoyuldn't be meddled with too much.

IMO, gods don't have bloodlines because they aren't flesh and blood. They're spirits, Outsiders, deities, call them what you will, but certainly not mortals anymore. Bloodlines were the distinct result of deific energies interacting with mortals, and that energy found a way to merge with two things: life (the blood), and the land. And what is mebhaighal but the spiritual lifesblood of the land, a source like the heart of a province?

However, blooded scions as a source for greater undead is VERY appealing. But I see that blooded template as a source of transformative (necromantic) magic, allowing for powerful undead with special powers and abilities. They trade off (not necessarilly voluntarily) blood abilities and connections with the land for their connection to the Shadow World and the powers granted by that.

Now a "Shadow Bloodline" based on negative energy, tying into the power of the Shadow World, might be very cool, and appropriate. Heh, heh... :ph34r:

-Osprey

Osprey

09-22-2003, 05:30 AM

Now that I think of it, might Spectral Scions fill niches in the Shadow World as the Shadow Regents? Would their domains be negative energy shadows of the living world?

Someone I know is actually trying to put Ghostwalk together with Birthright (they call it "Deathright" :lol: ). Funny name, but some interesting possibilities for full-scale adventures in the Shadow World.

kgauck

09-22-2003, 09:52 AM

----- Original Message -----

From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 12:30 AM

> Now that I think of it, might Spectral Scions fill niches in the Shadow

> World as the Shadow Regents? Would their domains be negative

> energy shadows of the living world?

Keep in mind that one plot of land will have many former rules now deceased.

The problem with a direct shodow mirror is that there are could be 50-100

spirits who once claimed rule over a province, or maybe just died ruling it.

Since our world is temporal and the afterlife is eternal, we cannot think of

one shadow regent, if we cling to a direct mirror.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

son of the warlord

09-22-2003, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by irdeggman@Sep 21 2003, 12:11 AM
Except for the fact that a bloodline is not a granted thing. They only came about because of the "death" and the spilt blood of the former gods.
Acctually, BLOODSPAWN claims that this is exactly what the Cold RIder does -- gives out teeny-tiny Azrai bloodlines to his halfling overlords so they can perpetuate their little dictatorships in the Shadow World (pg 33).

Osprey

09-22-2003, 05:01 PM

Keep in mind that one plot of land will have many former rules now deceased.
The problem with a direct shodow mirror is that there are could be 50-100
spirits who once claimed rule over a province, or maybe just died ruling it.
Since our world is temporal and the afterlife is eternal, we cannot think of
one shadow regent, if we cling to a direct mirror.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

It's not the regents, but rather the domains that would be mirrored. Most regents have souls, and will pass on to the afterlife. Spectral Scions are more like lost or captured souls, and wouldn't be too numerous.

We need not cling to closely to the domains' "real world" equivalents. The Shadow World split a long time ago, and machinations in the SW could have reshaped things significantly. The main idea was that there could be a system of SW bloodlines and regency.

irdeggman

09-23-2003, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by son of the warlord+Sep 22 2003, 09:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (son of the warlord @ Sep 22 2003, 09:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--irdeggman@Sep 21 2003, 12:11 AM
Except for the fact that a bloodline is not a granted thing.* They only came about because of the "death" and the spilt blood of the former gods.*
Acctually, BLOODSPAWN claims that this is exactly what the Cold RIder does -- gives out teeny-tiny Azrai bloodlines to his halfling overlords so they can perpetuate their little dictatorships in the Shadow World (pg 33). [/b][/quote]
True enough Blood Spawn indicates that the Cold Rider can siphon off part of his essence in order to create a bloodline.

Blood Spawn, pg 33 “Domain Lords gain their power by giving themselves over to the Cold Rider, worshipping him as a god. In exchange for their loyalty, he invests these followers with a seed of evil: a sliver of his own essence that takes the form of a tainted bloodline.”

Now I tend to look towards the preponderance of evidence in order to figure out what I should and should not take as the way things are supposed to be. Given the tremendous amount of editorial problems with the entire Birthright line this is a must. I also tend to give greater weight to books in a hierarchy. The DMG takes precedence over the PHB, books like Tome and Blood (if used) take precedence when the subject is wizards and sorcerers since that book was specifically written to supplement information on those two classes.

Now for the topic at hand, should blood lines be able to be granted by a deity?

There is the reference you cited in the for column. In the against column there are:

Atlas of Cerlia, pgs 8, 9 “Power flowed through them and about them, reflecting the natures of the gods who had sacrificed these energies.”

and

BR Rulebook, pgs 20, 21 “When the gods of the Andu, the Rjuven, the Brechts, the Basarji and even the Masetians faced Azrai at the Battle of Mount Deismaar, they gave up their own immortal lives in order to stop their evil brother. The mortals who survived absorbed the essences of these individual deities.”

Now since Blood Spawn is not a supplemental book of bloodlines, etc. – it is a self proclaimed Monstrous Compendium. Neither the Book of Regency nor the Book of Priestcraft really talks about ‘how the bloodlines were formed’ the hierarchy for these references is (to me at least) the BR Rulebook, the Atlas of Cerilia and then Blood Spawn. Hence I take the reference in Blood Spawn as being in error or at the very least being irrelevant in this aspect rather than being the actual cannon material to use as a basis. It also brings up a rather interesting problem as to what this tainted bloodline actually is – since the old gods had to take physical form in order to die and spill their blood. Is it Azrai’s bloodline or the Cold Riders? It also opens the door to any scion being able to create a bloodline by siphoning off some of themselves, at least for those with True bloodlines like the Cold Rider.

irdeggman

09-23-2003, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by irdeggman+Sep 20 2003, 12:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman @ Sep 20 2003, 12:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Osprey@Sep 20 2003, 12:44 AM
How the heck could undead have a Blooded descriptor? Divine power, sure, but in the form of a bloodline? :blink:
IN 2nd ed, just because a scion died didn't mean he was no longer blooded. He no longer had any regency and his tie to the land but there was nothing that really stated he lost his bloodline unless he was slain through the heart. [/b][/quote]
I found the reference I was looking for.

BoP pg 83 “The resurrected character could possibly win a new domain elsewhere in Cerilia, since he retains his bloodline (unless he willingly gave it away by designating it before his death). Unless he builds a new domain, he is treated as a scion and not as a regent.”

So technically there is nothing preventing an undead from being a scion. Now there is a lot from preventing an undead from being a regent. IMO we can assume (and really have to for a variety of reasons) that things work differently in the Shadow World.

irdeggman

09-23-2003, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by kgauck@Sep 20 2003, 09:08 PM
----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 6:11 PM

> Except for the fact that a bloodline is not a granted thing.

I believe we are talking about bloodline investiture (p81 BoP) with the

alteration that one can invest a part of one`s bloodline. Alternatly, the

bloodline is taken by force from captives and bloodline investiture is used

to "imbue some of the

more powerful undead with some bloodline". Whether the source of this

bloodline is captives, defeated enemies, the Cold Rider, or some other

source, its transmitted by bloodline investiture.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

As far as investing a portion of a bloodline. I stick by my original statement that investiture is an all or nothing thing. We shouldn’t be using house rules as a basis for treating something as cannon. I cite the following as my basis:

BR Rulebook, pg 30 “ A character can voluntarily pass his bloodline to another character by participating in a ceremony of investiture. The recipient of the bloodline increases his bloodline to the power of the donor, while the donor reduces himself to 0. In effect, the donor gives up all his heritage and passes it to another individual.”

and

BoP, pg 81 “The last type of investiture ceremony commonly employed in Cerilia is the bloodline investiture, in which one character gains the entirety of another’s bloodline.”

irdeggman

09-23-2003, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by Doyle@Sep 20 2003, 08:43 PM
I was going on the `the CR is what was remaining of Azrai after the

battle` theory. Also, isn`t there some spell `imbue bloodline` or

something like that? It may have been something I got from a post long

ago that was never formally integrated in.

Doyle.

As far as spells that grant bloodlines – I hadn’t found any references in the 2nd ed books. The spells I did find were: BoP – enhance blood ability (temporary), imbue with blood ability (temporary), blood bank, restore bloodline, destroy bloodline. BoM – enhance blood ability (temporary), suppress blood ability (temporary), mimic blood ability (temporary), suppress blood line (temporary) and blood drain.

destowe

09-24-2003, 03:57 AM

Create spawn might be the answer to what we are looking for.

The creator is technically the parent of the new undead.

Divide the undead scion's bloodscore in half and give it to the new undead. If the new undead was a scion before, add the two scores together before divinding.

How they would raise it, no clue at this time.

geeman

09-24-2003, 02:56 PM

At 01:31 AM 9/24/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>As far as spells that grant bloodlines * I hadn’t found any references in

>the 2nd ed books. The spells I did find were: BoP * enhance blood ability

>(temporary), imbue with blood ability (temporary), blood bank, restore

>bloodline, destroy bloodline. BoM * enhance blood ability (temporary),

>suppress blood ability (temporary), mimic blood ability (temporary),

>suppress blood line (temporary) and blood drain.

There`s also the Magian`s 9th level Bloodline Corruption spell that

permanently changes bloodline derivation in BE:AoC p65.

The possibility that Azrai in some way still exists as the Cold Rider does

provide a rationale for the creation of tainted bloodlines amongst the SW`s

halfling community (and gives us a hint as to what was happening when Azrai

created The Lost) but it`s not really necessary given that we don`t really

know that much about the Cold Rider in the first place. He could be a

deity of his own right, or some sort of near divine being, so his ability

to create a bloodline might simply be the BR equivalent of Planescape`s

proxies. Scions and proxies aren`t necessarily mutually exclusive

possibilities, of course, but for BR purposes it would seem redundant to

have them both in the setting.

However, it should be noted that given the capacity of the Magian to alter

bloodlines, and the possibility that he created his own bloodline after

arriving on Cerilia (or even Aebrynis) from who knows where, that it may be

possible to enhance or even create a bloodline with conventional (1st-9th

level) spells. Wish spells, for instance, can raise an ability score by up

to +5, so it`s easy to extrapolate that Wishes would have a similar effect

on a bloodline score. What might be the effect of wishing for a higher

bloodline score? +1 would seem a minimum, though the original BRCS use of

bloodline as an ability score would seem to indicate that at least +2 would

be more apt since that system equated the bloodline as an ability score

with the original bloodline score system at 1:2. I could even see a bonus

up to +5 as being acceptable.

Someone might even be able to create his/her own bloodline using one or

more Wish spells. The section of that spell description that describes the

XP costs of casting Wish spells could be used as a guideline for how much

of a bloodline is granted by such a spell, especially if such rules are

used in conjunction with templates or other standard ECL features of 3e

since they mesh pretty well.

Gary

geeman

09-24-2003, 02:58 PM

At 01:25 AM 9/24/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

> BoP pg 83 "The resurrected character could possibly win a new domain

> elsewhere in Cerilia, since he retains his bloodline (unless he willingly

> gave it away by designating it before his death). Unless he builds a new

> domain, he is treated as a scion and not as a regent."

>

> So technically there is nothing preventing an undead from being a scion.

> Now there is a lot from preventing an undead from being a regent. IMO we

> can assume (and really have to for a variety of reasons) that things work

> differently in the Shadow World.

It`s still questionable IMO whether a character who "returns to life" as an

undead creature will retain his bloodline. There are different kinds of

undead, of course, each having different effects and states, but in general

undead are corpses animated by negative planar energy, which isn`t quite

the same as being alive. Undead don`t have a soul in the sense that the

living do. Upon what does the bloodline anchor in the scion? If it

weren`t in some way tied to his soul and were housed in his flesh alone

then wouldn`t it remain in his body after death? Wouldn`t the corpse

retain that aspect of the godly power despite the soul`s departure? Since

one can`t commit bloodtheft on a corpse it seems that bloodline is in some

way tied to the soul or life force of the character rather than to his body

alone, so if his body were revived as an undead without his actual soul

being returned to it, it seems to me that he may lack the bloodline that he

had "in life."

If someone were to animate the corpse of a scion using the Animate Dead

spell I don`t think the resulting zombie or skeleton would have a

bloodline, blood abilities and the capacity to control a domain and gain

regency. Other more advanced and powerful undead creatures might be more

easily justified having a bloodline, but it does depend on how one

interprets bloodline being embodied, as well as the description of what it

is that becoming undead does to the body itself. Aside from the lack of a

real intelligence for such things, a "soul" or something beyond simple

animation would seem to be necessary.

It is possible to have a soul and still be undead, but I`d suggest that

it`s not the norm. I`m trying to avoid references to Buffy the Vampire

Slayer and Angel, but they really are apt, so I`m just going to suggest

that being undead and having a soul would be the kind of thing that an

undead creature would have to acquire on purpose rather than something they

have automatically.

The awnsheghlien who are "undead" (the Vampire and the Magian) are probably

not truly undead in the standard D&D sense. We don`t really know about the

Magian`s origin, and the "rules" for a lich may be different from other

undead, but most likely they are simply awnsheghlien whose transformation

takes on the appearance of undead in an archetypal sense rather than in the

sense that they are truly beings that are "beyond death" like typical undead.

Gary

destowe

09-24-2003, 09:37 PM

Then what about the existince of Blooded weapons in the BRCS?

This inanimate object holds a bloodline. It seems to support the divine essence of the gods run in the blood of living beings. Perhaps in unliving beings it is uniformly spread and only is released upon complete destruction.

And then there are the sielshegh gems. They enhance the blood and have divine essence in them.

Both of these objects only react when around an intelligent creature to utilize the powers.

Perhaps if the item was itself intelligent, it could use the blood abilities like a character.

An intelligent inanimate object is not the exact same as intelligent undead, but I think helps the discussion.

geeman

09-25-2003, 12:22 AM

At 11:37 PM 9/24/2003 +0200, destowe wrote:

>Then what about the existince of Blooded weapons in the BRCS?

>

>This inanimate object holds a bloodline. It seems to support the divine

>essence of the gods run in the blood of living beings. Perhaps in

>unliving beings it is uniformly spread and only is released upon complete

>destruction.

I don`t know what the inspiration for blooded weapons was, but I could

suggest a couple of justifications for them. In at least one case I can

think of the magical power of a weapon in a fantasy fiction was based on

the connection of that item to an extraplanar soul. Stormbringer, for

instance, in Moorcock`s work isn`t really a sword at all. It`s a being

from another plane of existence that takes the form of a sword as part of

its material manifestation and goal to suck away souls and operate as an

agent of destiny. Blooded weapons could be the BR equivalent.

It`s probably impossible to not at least reference the BtVS stuff regarding

vampires gaining a soul, but a parallel effort on the part of someone who

creates such an item could be used as a rationale for such things. There

are the occasional "unique circumstances" in the BR where a being that

normally could not have gained a bloodline does so despite the actual rules

regarding such things. The Boar, the Wolf and the Chimaera being examples

of unusual bloodtheft/investiture. An inanimate object would probably

require a step to begin with in order to "invest" it with a soul before it

could be invested with a bloodline making for, perhaps, a doubly unlikely

set of "unique circumstances" but it`s a possibility.

Assuming, that is, that one thinks a soul is required for a bloodline in

the first place. One way or another a little thought as to how such items

might be made or what the requirements would be for them might be in order.

Gary

destowe

09-25-2003, 02:20 AM

There was a small blurb under Usuraption about people, animals, and on very rare occasions, even objects in the immediate area of a scion's violent death may absorb a portion of the scion's divine essence.

So it seems that they are using bloodline and divine essence as interchangable terms.

Maybe if it was blood it is a bloodline, if it doesn't call it divine essence.

But they should both have the same abilities.

(Of course a rock with endurance will not do much. Give it a divine aura and it could become an heirloom item for a regent.)

irdeggman

09-25-2003, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by geeman@Sep 24 2003, 07:22 PM
At 11:37 PM 9/24/2003 +0200, destowe wrote:

>Then what about the existince of Blooded weapons in the BRCS?

>

>This inanimate object holds a bloodline. It seems to support the divine

>essence of the gods run in the blood of living beings. Perhaps in

>unliving beings it is uniformly spread and only is released upon complete

>destruction.

I don`t know what the inspiration for blooded weapons was, but I could

suggest a couple of justifications for them. In at least one case I can

think of the magical power of a weapon in a fantasy fiction was based on

the connection of that item to an extraplanar soul. Stormbringer, for

instance, in Moorcock`s work isn`t really a sword at all. It`s a being

from another plane of existence that takes the form of a sword as part of

its material manifestation and goal to suck away souls and operate as an

agent of destiny. Blooded weapons could be the BR equivalent.

Gary

From several places:

BoM - the already mentioned Sielshegh gems/artifacts, especially the write up on the Sielehr.

BoP - the spell blood bank, which allows storage of a bloodline in an item

BoR - the Sword of Blood which actually has a bloodline (and blood abilites) imbued and they are accessable by the user of the item, unlike the other references.

BoR - blood armor

DanMcSorley

09-26-2003, 05:43 PM

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003, Gary wrote:

> Assuming, that is, that one thinks a soul is required for a bloodline in

> the first place. One way or another a little thought as to how such items

> might be made or what the requirements would be for them might be in order.

There are a number of gems that received divine bloodlines during

Deismaar. Sielshegh, something like that, from the Book of Magecraft. So

it`s not unheard of for inanimate objects to be imbued with divine blood.

--

Daniel McSorley

Osprey

09-26-2003, 06:53 PM

> Assuming, that is, that one thinks a soul is required for a bloodline in
> the first place. One way or another a little thought as to how such items
> might be made or what the requirements would be for them might be in order. [Gary]

There are a number of gems that received divine bloodlines during
Deismaar. Sielshegh, something like that, from the Book of Magecraft. So
it`s not unheard of for inanimate objects to be imbued with divine blood.

--
Daniel McSorley

Imbued with divine energy? OK, but not a bloodline, at least not in a literal sense. There's no way a PC would smash a sielshegh and have it bleed all over the ground.

Metaphysically, I think it's important to clarify that the blast at Deismaar was a massive blast of divine energy, not a gory explosion of divine blood. The blast was absorbed by the blood of surviving heroes and aligned soldiers, as well as a few inanimate objects (the sielshegh). But given the low number and strength of the sielshegh (50 Bloodline per god, yes?) compared to living recipients, it obviously is a rarity for divine energy to naturally gravitate towards inanimate objects of any sort.

However, Deismaar is an example of what those divine energies will do without any sort of magical manipulation. Given the number of spells designed to manipulate bloodlines and their powers, it's hard to really place much of a limit on what could be done regarding enchantments and things like undead.

The essential power would be the spell/ritual that converts bloodlines into their pure energy form. In other words, a kind of purification or distillation of the divine energies within the bloodlines. I imagine this would be in the realm of the Wish spell, although another level 9 spell could be created in 3e. Optionally, it could also be a Realm Spell to represent the incredible amounts of power necessary to accomplish such a feat.

The second power would be the spell that could move these energies from one receptacle to another. This could either be interwoven into the first spell (which makes sense, especially if its a ritual realm spell), or its own (lower level) spell. Perhaps level 5-7?

I would allow these for both arcane and divine casters (clerics and mages). Different methods, same results.

The obvious application would be to create magic items with bloodlines: weapons, armor, even sielshegh would logically be within the capabilities of this spell. Of course, rare is the 17th level caster in Cerilia!

The second application could be things like creating Greater (sentient) Undead, such as spectres, wraiths, shadows, wights, and possibly spectral scions. The idea being that they need only a small amount of divine energy to be created (say, convert drained Bloodline to RP as in Bloodtheft, create up to 1 HD of greater undead per RP).

For high-level campaigns: offer some stolen bloodline energy as payment to some greater being of the Shadow World such as a Nightshade or Death Knight - perhaps 1 point of Bloodline strength per month of service (replacing demonic/ infernal service in Cerilia).

I've always imagined Shadow Mages and Necromancers replacing the demonologists of other [higher] fantasy realms.

Just some ideas for those who are interested. Cheers!

Osprey

ryancaveney

09-26-2003, 08:34 PM

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003, Osprey wrote:

> Imbued with divine energy? OK, but not a bloodline, at least not in a

> literal sense. There`s no way a PC would smash a sielshegh and have

> it bleed all over the ground.

>

> Metaphysically, I think it`s important to clarify that the blast at

> Deismaar was a massive blast of divine energy, not a gory

> explosion of divine blood.

I`m having a hard time reconciling these statements. Why in one case do

you seem to think the physical container of the magical energy is more

important than the energy itself, but in the other you disagree? Since

you`re happy with the gods not literally spraying blood everywhere, I find

it hard to see why you are disappointed that liberating identical energy

from rocks wouldn`t literally spray blood either. To me, although the

energy is often transmitted between living creatures through their blood,

it is not actually *part of* the blood, and is more important than the

literal blood; for example, I don`t think bloodline investiture requires a

transfusion, and I don`t think you do either. In fact, depending on how

seriously one takes some of the more esoteric theories about elves and

dwarves, it is entirely possible that one or both of those races don`t

have actual blood, but have "bloodlines" anyway because they are imbued

with the same energy, albeit in a slightly different medium.

Ryan Caveney

ryancaveney

09-26-2003, 10:11 PM

> From: "Osprey" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

>

> > Now that I think of it, might Spectral Scions fill niches in the

> > Shadow World as the Shadow Regents? Would their domains be negative

> > energy shadows of the living world?

IMO, there are definitely regents in the Shadow World, and they use

exactly the same domain rules for interacting with each other that normal

"light side" regents do. My shadow world looks very much like Cerilia --

except that all the humans are undead instead, it`s colder and darker, and

the crops the undead peasants grow look rather weird to living eyes...

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> Keep in mind that one plot of land will have many former rules now

> deceased. The problem with a direct shodow mirror is that there are

> could be 50-100 spirits who once claimed rule over a province, or

> maybe just died ruling it.

Do you use reincarnation? That could definitely help. Also, is the

Shadow World exactly the same thing as the afterlife? I am inclined to

think not.

Ryan Caveney

geeman

09-27-2003, 06:55 AM

At 01:32 PM 9/26/2003 -0400, Daniel McSorley wrote:

> > Assuming, that is, that one thinks a soul is required for a bloodline in

> > the first place. One way or another a little thought as to how such items

> > might be made or what the requirements would be for them might be in order.

>

>There are a number of gems that received divine bloodlines during

>Deismaar. Sielshegh, something like that, from the Book of Magecraft. So

>it`s not unheard of for inanimate objects to be imbued with divine blood.

I don`t know that they really received a bloodline per se. They act as

bonuses to bloodline score when used by a regent of the appropriate

derivation, but that`s not quite the same as having a bloodline

themselves. The function differs in certain fundamental ways. They don`t

have blood abilities, nor would they do anything like collect regency on

their own in little mineral empires should they not be utilized by a

regent. Most importantly, bloodlines don`t interact with one another the

way sielshegh gems interact with regents. That is, two regents can`t get

together and pool their bloodline strength score without vassalage

agreements, etc. in quite the same way, so I don`t know if it`s quite the

same thing. One can`t stab them through the

heart/center/core/inclusion/whatever and release the power of their

bloodline through bloodtheft (though upon reflection that might not be such

a bad idea...) and they fundamentally lack those aspects of a bloodline

that make a character a scion--blood abilities, regency collection, etc.

As a loose comparison, I`d suggest that the situation might be more akin to

radiation exposure in that sci-fi/comic book kind of way. Sielshegh gems

are merely irradiated by their exposure to the powers released at Deismaar,

while the people present and thus exposed were mutated (like the Fantastic

Four subjected to cosmic rays, or the Hulk`s gamma radiation.) Possession

of sielshegh gems might enhance a mutation or strength a character (a sort

of Cerilian crypto-Kryptonite if you will) but it doesn`t really make the

stones themselves mutated/blooded.

However, I suppose the description of sielshegh as "stones with a

bloodline" is apt in that the powers of sielshegh gems could be used as a

model for the inanimate object`s version of a bloodline, but we should be

kind of careful applying that sort of thing since there were so many suits

of armor, weapons, belt buckles, shoes, holy symbols, codpieces, corpses,

etc. lying around the Battle of Deismaar that could have been similarly

imbued should they be aligned to a god in whatever way it was that the gems

were aligned to the gods that allowed for their empowerment. (I have a

couple of ideas for what might align a codpiece, but apparently the new

additions D20 license will prevent any such material.)

Gary

irdeggman

09-27-2003, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by geeman@Sep 27 2003, 01:55 AM

However, I suppose the description of sielshegh as "stones with a

bloodline" is apt in that the powers of sielshegh gems could be used as a

model for the inanimate object`s version of a bloodline, but we should be

kind of careful applying that sort of thing since there were so many suits

of armor, weapons, belt buckles, shoes, holy symbols, codpieces, corpses,

etc. lying around the Battle of Deismaar that could have been similarly

imbued should they be aligned to a god in whatever way it was that the gems

were aligned to the gods that allowed for their empowerment. (I have a

couple of ideas for what might align a codpiece, but apparently the new

additions D20 license will prevent any such material.)

Gary

OK Gary so you have addressed the gems what about the other items imbued with a bloodline?

Blood Sword
Blood Armor

The results of the Blood Bank spell

All store a bloodline in an object - hence theobject now has a bloodline.

I have to agree with Ryan on this one, blood is a means of transferring and keeping the divine energy that was released. I would extrapolate that the media is the thing that is most dear to the creature/object, hence blood for living things. Icor for undead and the material itself for items (you could even use an elemental equivalent if desired).

I would also extrapolate that Tieghmaervril would have the same effect on an object as it does on a living creature due to the material's affinity for absorbing and transferring the power of the blood. With the new rules in 3.0/3.5 for item hardness and hit points it is fairly easy to explain mechanically - pretty much the same way as it works on scions. Use the write up in the BRCS instead of the 2nd ed one for blow through the heart, since it required rules for how to handle that which didn't exist in 2nd ed at the time. It took the Player's Option: Combat and Tactics to codify a system for critical hits (and locations).

Osprey

09-27-2003, 02:27 PM

> Imbued with divine energy? OK, but not a bloodline, at least not in a
> literal sense. There`s no way a PC would smash a sielshegh and have
> it bleed all over the ground.
>
> Metaphysically, I think it`s important to clarify that the blast at
> Deismaar was a massive blast of divine energy, not a gory
> explosion of divine blood.

I`m having a hard time reconciling these statements. Why in one case do
you seem to think the physical container of the magical energy is more
important than the energy itself, but in the other you disagree? Since
you`re happy with the gods not literally spraying blood everywhere, I find
it hard to see why you are disappointed that liberating identical energy
from rocks wouldn`t literally spray blood either. To me, although the
energy is often transmitted between living creatures through their blood,
it is not actually *part of* the blood, and is more important than the
literal blood; for example, I don`t think bloodline investiture requires a
transfusion, and I don`t think you do either. In fact, depending on how
seriously one takes some of the more esoteric theories about elves and
dwarves, it is entirely possible that one or both of those races don`t
have actual blood, but have "bloodlines" anyway because they are imbued
with the same energy, albeit in a slightly different medium.

Ryan Caveney

Actually, I agree with what you're saying here. I see blood as being the "easiest" receptacle for divine energy. The container IS important; the sielshegh are gems of a specific type, for instance (rubies for Anduiras, topaz for Basaia, etc.), just as humans carry that energy within the blood. I think elves and dwarves probably still have hearts and blood, and would carry that energy within their blood.

Gems and objects carrying divine energy, such as the sielshegh, is a pretty straightforward concept: they enhance existing bloodlines (and could probably boost the successor gods' powers, too). An item carrying an actual Bloodline is a bit trickier, and it's there I see things getting sticky regarding HOW an object manages to store such a thing. I like the idea of Blood Armor - an item storing a dormant bloodline released only by a descendant.

But the Blood Sword, with an active bloodline, definitely pushes the rules, and it would be good to come up with an explanation of how an object could do this.

-Osprey

geeman

09-27-2003, 07:30 PM

At 03:35 PM 9/27/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>OK Gary so you have addressed the gems what about the other items imbued

>with a bloodline?

>

> Blood Sword

> Blood Armor

I could make a few suggestions using the text on the Sielsheghlien as a

guide. First, there`s an issue of proximity to "ground zero" of the

explosion at Deismaar. Sielshegh gems were supposedly created from "the

remnants of rock where the gods stood and brought their full power to bear

against Azrai" according to the BoM. The description of how people gained

a bloodline indicates in some cases that all one had to do was be on the

battlefield to get a bloodline. Though that could be debated a bit since

nobody really knows how large the battlefield was, nor how many people

participated. In the past speculation has ranged pretty drastically IIRC

from a few thousand on either side to a few hundred thousand, and opinions

on the distance at which one gained a bloodline can be similarly broad.

According to the "legend" of sielshegh gems, however, in the BoM text

"where the gods stood" would seem to indicate that these stones were much

closer than people who became blooded. If the immediate blast radius is

"ground zero" for Deismaar, I`d suggest that the area in which stones could

become imbued with magical energy and become sielsheghlien is even smaller;

like the immediate proximity of the gods themselves or the area with them

and the mortals who inherited their bloodline as the perimeter. Within

that zone certain stones could gain magical power. It`s still not a

bloodline in the sense that a character can be blooded--because inanimate

objects lack a life force they don`t become blooded per se. It`s rather

more like those items become capacitors for blooded characters, heightening

or somehow increasing their powers.

One could use a similar justification for other inanimate objects gaining

powers that interact with a scion`s bloodline. That is, items that were in

very close proximity to the blast could have gained some sort of

powers. This would limit the number of them considerably, and also provide

a ready background for them in that they would most likely be the personal

items of the mortals who ascended. Haelyn`s helmet, for instance, could

become The Bloodhelm; the BR equivalent of an artifact or other unique

magic item. Things like that.

Second, is the issue of what kinds of items would have become

empowered. The sielshegh were presumably all stones whose original

composition leant themselves to each of the derivations and absorbed the

appropriate energy. Jacinths for Brenna, sapphires for Masela, etc. The

stones that became sielsheghlien were not necessarily of the appropriate

type and color before the explosion. They might have been ordinary,

non-precious rocks before the blast. They were, after all, made magical by

the blast, so it`s possible that they were also transformed into gemstones

by the same energies that made them magical like a chunk of coal crushed

into a diamond in the palm of a being of godly power--a fantasy story standby.

In that context, I`d like to float one theory: Sielshegh could be the

remnants of actual jewelry worn by the gods and/or the mortals who ascended

at the BoD. Each of the gods (or their avatars, or their most closely

associated mortal follower) might have favored a particular type of

gemstone, and thus those gems might have been magicked in the explosion.

It`s not an unreasonable assumption that the sielsheghlien actually were

gemstones before the blast, however, so I say we go with that not only

because it`s pretty logical, but also because it works in context of other

inanimate objects. That is, only the appropriate objects would have been

given magical properties. Erik`s staff, for instance, might have powers of

Reynir`s bloodline. His shield, however, might not since something like

that would be more appropriate to Anduiras` knightly/heraldic sphere of

influence.

Last, one should probably take into account the hardness of such items in

that they would have to be able to survive the blast. It probably wouldn`t

make sense for items that were not stone, iron or of similar density to

gain powers. The flowing robes of Basaia, for instance, don`t seem

particularly apt as items strong enough to survive the blast, nor would

something like leather goods, paper (scrolls or books), etc. A length of

rope held by one of these characters would probably not survive the

explosion. A set of armor doesn`t seem particularly apt to me either in

that most metal armor is made up of so many different pieces, and would not

likely survive intact. A piece or two (helms, shield, a gauntlet, boot,

etc.) might be more appropriate than a whole suit.

Other items that might make sense: rings and most types of jewelry,

bracers, bone or bone fragments including teeth, weapons like daggers or

hardened wooden weapons (like a druid`s staff) and sheaths for bladed

weapons if made of appropriately hard material.

> The results of the Blood Bank spell

I`d suggest that in the case of this spell it`s not really an item that

becomes blooded, it`s just that that item becomes the temporary totemic

focus of the bloodline in place of the scion/regent`s heart. The bloodline

will still transfer to an heir upon the death of the person who normally

"houses" the bloodline, but it is the life force of the scion that actually

maintains it. One can`t transfer the bloodline to another person through

the container, so it`s not really the container itself that is imbued with

magical power.

Having said that... I don`t much care for this spell. As the basis for a

magic item then I can perhaps see it, but as a 4th level divine spell it`s

just a little too whacky IMO. Plus, spells with durations in the weeks

strike me as a bad idea in general, particularly in 3e/3.5.

>All store a bloodline in an object - hence theobject now has a bloodline.

>

>I have to agree with Ryan on this one, blood is a means of transferring

>and keeping the divine energy that was released. I would extrapolate that

>the media is the thing that is most dear to the creature/object, hence

>blood for living things. Icor for undead and the material itself for

>items (you could even use an elemental equivalent if desired).

Honestly, I`m still waffling on the issue of undead with bloodlines. I

mean, there`s a certain logic to it, but the absence of blooded undead in

the BR materials would seem to beg a rationale for NOT having them rather

than an inclusion. I do like the symmetry with certain undead conditions

(the stab through the heart aspect of vampires, for instance) and I can see

how this kind of thing might interact with the Shadow World`s denizens, but

I`m still not convinced undead should be able to gain the power of the gods

in the same way living beings can. Maybe it has something to do with the

paths that either beings are on in regards to ascension and immortality;

undead "peeking" (if you will) at demi-lichdom while the living in D&D

generally are not assumed to have any such maximum limitation and in BR, of

course, we have a pantheon of former mortals to exemplify that difference.

>I would also extrapolate that Tieghmaervril would have the same effect on

>an object as it does on a living creature due to the material`s affinity

>for absorbing and transferring the power of the blood. With the new rules

>in 3.0/3.5 for item hardness and hit points it is fairly easy to explain

>mechanically - pretty much the same way as it works on scions.

Could you elaborate on this a bit? How would you use the new 3.5 hardness

rules to reflect absorbing power or those items taking on a bloodline?

Gary

irdeggman

09-29-2003, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by geeman@Sep 27 2003, 02:30 PM
At 03:35 PM 9/27/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>OK Gary so you have addressed the gems what about the other items imbued

>with a bloodline?

>

> Blood Sword

> Blood Armor

I could make a few suggestions using the text on the Sielsheghlien as a

guide. First, there`s an issue of proximity to "ground zero" of the

explosion at Deismaar. Sielshegh gems were supposedly created from "the

remnants of rock where the gods stood and brought their full power to bear

against Azrai" according to the BoM. The description of how people gained

a bloodline indicates in some cases that all one had to do was be on the

battlefield to get a bloodline. Though that could be debated a bit since

nobody really knows how large the battlefield was, nor how many people

participated. In the past speculation has ranged pretty drastically IIRC

from a few thousand on either side to a few hundred thousand, and opinions

on the distance at which one gained a bloodline can be similarly broad.

According to the "legend" of sielshegh gems, however, in the BoM text

"where the gods stood" would seem to indicate that these stones were much

closer than people who became blooded. If the immediate blast radius is

"ground zero" for Deismaar, I`d suggest that the area in which stones could

become imbued with magical energy and become sielsheghlien is even smaller;

like the immediate proximity of the gods themselves or the area with them

and the mortals who inherited their bloodline as the perimeter. Within

that zone certain stones could gain magical power. It`s still not a

bloodline in the sense that a character can be blooded--because inanimate

objects lack a life force they don`t become blooded per se. It`s rather

more like those items become capacitors for blooded characters, heightening

or somehow increasing their powers.

One could use a similar justification for other inanimate objects gaining

powers that interact with a scion`s bloodline. That is, items that were in

very close proximity to the blast could have gained some sort of

powers. This would limit the number of them considerably, and also provide

a ready background for them in that they would most likely be the personal

items of the mortals who ascended. Haelyn`s helmet, for instance, could

become The Bloodhelm; the BR equivalent of an artifact or other unique

magic item. Things like that.

Second, is the issue of what kinds of items would have become

empowered. The sielshegh were presumably all stones whose original

composition leant themselves to each of the derivations and absorbed the

appropriate energy. Jacinths for Brenna, sapphires for Masela, etc. The

stones that became sielsheghlien were not necessarily of the appropriate

type and color before the explosion. They might have been ordinary,

non-precious rocks before the blast. They were, after all, made magical by

the blast, so it`s possible that they were also transformed into gemstones

by the same energies that made them magical like a chunk of coal crushed

into a diamond in the palm of a being of godly power--a fantasy story standby.

In that context, I`d like to float one theory: Sielshegh could be the

remnants of actual jewelry worn by the gods and/or the mortals who ascended

at the BoD. Each of the gods (or their avatars, or their most closely

associated mortal follower) might have favored a particular type of

gemstone, and thus those gems might have been magicked in the explosion.

It`s not an unreasonable assumption that the sielsheghlien actually were

gemstones before the blast, however, so I say we go with that not only

because it`s pretty logical, but also because it works in context of other

inanimate objects. That is, only the appropriate objects would have been

given magical properties. Erik`s staff, for instance, might have powers of

Reynir`s bloodline. His shield, however, might not since something like

that would be more appropriate to Anduiras` knightly/heraldic sphere of

influence.

Last, one should probably take into account the hardness of such items in

that they would have to be able to survive the blast. It probably wouldn`t

make sense for items that were not stone, iron or of similar density to

gain powers. The flowing robes of Basaia, for instance, don`t seem

particularly apt as items strong enough to survive the blast, nor would

something like leather goods, paper (scrolls or books), etc. A length of

rope held by one of these characters would probably not survive the

explosion. A set of armor doesn`t seem particularly apt to me either in

that most metal armor is made up of so many different pieces, and would not

likely survive intact. A piece or two (helms, shield, a gauntlet, boot,

etc.) might be more appropriate than a whole suit.

Other items that might make sense: rings and most types of jewelry,

bracers, bone or bone fragments including teeth, weapons like daggers or

hardened wooden weapons (like a druid`s staff) and sheaths for bladed

weapons if made of appropriately hard material.

> The results of the Blood Bank spell

I`d suggest that in the case of this spell it`s not really an item that

becomes blooded, it`s just that that item becomes the temporary totemic

focus of the bloodline in place of the scion/regent`s heart. The bloodline

will still transfer to an heir upon the death of the person who normally

"houses" the bloodline, but it is the life force of the scion that actually

maintains it. One can`t transfer the bloodline to another person through

the container, so it`s not really the container itself that is imbued with

magical power.

Having said that... I don`t much care for this spell. As the basis for a

magic item then I can perhaps see it, but as a 4th level divine spell it`s

just a little too whacky IMO. Plus, spells with durations in the weeks

strike me as a bad idea in general, particularly in 3e/3.5.

>All store a bloodline in an object - hence theobject now has a bloodline.

>I would also extrapolate that Tieghmaervril would have the same effect on

>an object as it does on a living creature due to the material`s affinity

>for absorbing and transferring the power of the blood. With the new rules

>in 3.0/3.5 for item hardness and hit points it is fairly easy to explain

>mechanically - pretty much the same way as it works on scions.

Could you elaborate on this a bit? How would you use the new 3.5 hardness

rules to reflect absorbing power or those items taking on a bloodline?

Gary

Gary, several things

Hardness and item hitpoints would be used as in when a Tieghmaervril weapon 'breaks' a blooded item it absorbs the bloodline just as if it would against a scion. Hardness is sort of like a DR for items, Tieghmaervril could be said to bypass this DR for blooded items in this case.

Swords of Blood were created after Mt Deismaar as per the writeup in the BoR so their being formed in the same manner as Sielshegh gems just doesn't work.

Bloodbank spell was only given as a 2nd ed reference as part of the original question as to where the idea for creating blooded items came from. There isn't currently a BRCS spell that really covers this effect.

geeman

09-29-2003, 09:06 AM

At 03:28 AM 9/29/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>Hardness and item hitpoints would be used as in when a Tieghmaervril

>weapon `breaks` a blooded item it absorbs the bloodline just as if it

>would against a scion. Hardness is sort of like a DR for items,

>Tieghmaervril could be said to bypass this DR for blooded items in this case.

OK, but how does that relate to the act of bloodtheft on the object? I

mean, such an item has to be completely "killed" (reduced to 0 hp) by an

attack in order to release the power, but what is the "stab through the

heart" analogy that could be used for an inanimate object?

>Swords of Blood were created after Mt Deismaar as per the writeup in the

>BoR so their being formed in the same manner as Sielshegh gems just

>doesn`t work.

>

>Bloodbank spell was only given as a 2nd ed reference as part of the

>original question as to where the idea for creating blooded items came

>from. There isn`t currently a BRCS spell that really covers this effect.

The effects of the Swords of Blood is very similar to the Blood Ward spell,

and would be more closely associated with that spell--the "totemic"

description of that spell as differentiated from actually creating a

blooded device. While the powers of the swords are, of course, broader

than just that of those spells, that`s pretty easily associated with

similar magic item creation methods in 3e/3.5, and I`d suggest again that

the item in question doesn`t really have a bloodline per se. It merely is

the receptacle for that bloodline in a way that might be analogous to the

way the "jar" becomes the focus of the soul in the Magic Jar

spell. Bloodlines are transferrable, but the item that acts as the

container for that bloodline isn`t "blooded" in the sense that I think was

suggested earlier in the thread. It is "magicked" but not the inanimate

equivalent of a scion.

Gary

irdeggman

09-29-2003, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by geeman@Sep 29 2003, 04:06 AM
At 03:28 AM 9/29/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>Hardness and item hitpoints would be used as in when a Tieghmaervril

>weapon `breaks` a blooded item it absorbs the bloodline just as if it

>would against a scion. Hardness is sort of like a DR for items,

>Tieghmaervril could be said to bypass this DR for blooded items in this case.

OK, but how does that relate to the act of bloodtheft on the object? I

mean, such an item has to be completely "killed" (reduced to 0 hp) by an

attack in order to release the power, but what is the "stab through the

heart" analogy that could be used for an inanimate object?

Gary

Gary - I had suggested using the write up from the BRCS-playtest instead of the one from 2nd ed for tieghmaervril and bloodtheft. Which means that when the item is destroyed the bloodline is released. You seem to constantly be changing between 2nd and 3rd ed terminiology and usage. There are currently no rules in 3/3.5 covering blows through the heart. The info presented in the BRCS-playtest also doesn't address blows through the heart. As I had previously pointed out it pretty much took the release of Player's Option: Combat and Tactics to present a detailed system and this was issued after the Birthright setting came out. IMO the 'blow through the heart' was placed there for effect and color since there was no mechanic in existance at the time to address it.

Many people had their own house rules for critical hits and locations but there really wasn't an 'official' system issued until PS:C&T, which was an 'optional' book.

Osprey

09-29-2003, 03:37 PM

Stabbing a person through the heart with a mortal blow:

The easiest solution is requiring a Coup de Grace. In my own campaign, I found this was the typical way in which such bloodtheft occurs. The enemy is rendered unconscious (0 to -9 HP), and a character takes a full round action to drive a blade through the heart. Game over.

For conscious opponents, it's much trickier. Here was my solution:

Hitting the heart is a Called Shot. Like striking an object, this provokes an attack of opportunity. This can only be accomplished with a piercing melee weapon.
Based on size (heart = Diminutive), the defender gets a +4 AC bonus against this attack. If a DM would rule that Bloodtheft requires a "direct hit through the center of the heart," they could make it a Fine target and give a +8 AC bonus. I think this is a bit harsh, however, and go with +4.

Against mortal opponents (where the heart is a vital area), such a hit would count as a critical hit, and do appropriate damage based on the weapon type.

A failed attempt is a normal miss (kind of harsh, but such attacks shouldn't be too risk-free).

If the damage is enough to take the victim to -10 HP or lower, then Bloodtheft occurs as per the BRCS rules for death by a stab through the heart.

For a more challenging (hard-to-accomplish) set of rules, check out Ravenloft's rules for staking Vampires through the heart (I don't have the info here - sorry). The mechanics should be fairly synonomous.

-Osprey

Osprey

09-29-2003, 03:42 PM

And for a truly viscious campaign that features Bloodtheft, here's a feat that might be possible:

Bloodthief
Description: The character has become a specialist in stabbing victims through the heart when committing Bloodtheft.

Prerequisites:
Minimum Base Attack Bonus: +8
The character must have committed Bloodtheft by stabbing a scion through the heart.

Benefits: The character does not suffer attacks of opportunity when attempting to stab an opponent through the heart.

geeman

09-29-2003, 08:37 PM

At 11:52 AM 9/29/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>
At 03:28 AM 9/29/2003 +0200,

> irdeggman wrote:<>

> <>

> >Hardness and item hitpoints would be used as in when a Tieghmaervril<>

> >weapon `breaks` a blooded item it absorbs the bloodline just as if it<>

> >would against a scion. Hardness is sort of like a DR for items,<>

> >Tieghmaervril could be said to bypass this DR for blooded items in this

> case.<>

> <>

> OK, but how does that relate to the act of bloodtheft on the object? I<>

> mean, such an item has to be completely "killed" (reduced to 0

> hp) by an<>

> attack in order to release the power, but what is the "stab through

> the<>

> heart" analogy that could be used for an inanimate object?<>

> Gary<>

>

> Gary - I had suggested using the write up from the BRCS-playtest instead

> of the one from 2nd ed for tieghmaervril and bloodtheft. Which means

> that when the item is destroyed the bloodline is released. You seem to

> constantly be changing between 2nd and 3rd ed terminiology and

> usage. There are currently no rules in 3/3.5 covering blows through the

> heart. The info presented in the BRCS-playtest also doesn`t address

> blows through the heart. As I had previously pointed out it pretty much

> took the release of Player`s Option: Combat and Tactics to present a

> detailed system and this was issued after the Birthright setting came out.

>

>IMO the `blow through the heart` was placed there for effect and color

>since there was no mechanic in existance at the time to address it.

Ouch. This is one of the drastic and fundamental changes from the original

setting`s text that I don`t think the BRCS has done a very good job

with. I didn`t realize this was the result of someone on the team thinking

that the text on the subject was really just colour text, though. I

thought it was just something that hadn`t been addressed because it`s a

difficult thing to turn into game mechanics, but since this appears to have

been the thinking I`m going to address the issue in some detail.

The requirement of the physical act of stabbing a scion through the heart

in order to release the power of their bloodline is spelled out pretty

clearly by the original setting material. It`s part of the general theme

of bloodlines that includes everything from the actual name of the concept

to how it is transferred and a whole slew of basic BR concepts. While it`s

true that there were no good game mechanics to reflect stabbing someone in

the heart in the 2e rules, a similar lack of such mechanics for 3e is not a

legitimate reason to eliminate the idea from the campaign material. In

fact, it illustrates that it was a purposeful addition rather than

something that should be ignored in an update since it would have been much

easier to just ignore the idea the first time around.

Bloodtheft by stabbing a scion through the heart is not colour text, it`s

campaign material. Colour text is material that conveys things like the

attitude of NPCs, or general role-playing effects like physical

descriptions, monologues by important personages that convey personality,

etc. It`s things that convey thematic information beyond simple rules and

guidelines. Tone, mood, feel, context, and even things like motivation and

purpose could be defined as colour text. The verbiage of the Planescape

setting is colour text, berk.

"Gurk lives in a small, dark cave with the sound of dripping water

constantly reminding him of his loneliness and isolation" is colour

text. "If subjected to light based attacks, Gurk is rendered blind" is not

colour text. It`s a theme of the character that should be reflected by

game mechanics. Similarly, "King John wears wears a purple cloak and blue

breeches, his hair has gone grey and his eyes are a piercing blue" is

colour text, while "like all nobles of Cerilia, if King John is stabbed

through the heart it will release the power of his bloodline" is campaign

material. That we don`t have really good game mechanics to reflect how to

work it is a problem, but not a good reason to change or ignore the

campaign material.

The change in the BRCS is at least similar to another BR theme; the

explosion at Mount Deismaar. Bloodtheft in the update is more like the

release of the Quickening in Highlander--except that it affects and

possibly empowers just about anybody in the room, not just the immortals,

and in this case I think it creates several problems.

For instance, I don`t know that the change from stabbing through the heart

to "death by violent means and his blood is literally spilt" is that strong

a theme. First of all, there has to be the somewhat odd proviso that the

scion`s death must be in hand-to-hand combat so that someone doesn`t kill a

scion from a distance with a crossbow and watch the resulting explosion

like a fireworks display. That change seems to be somewhat unnecessary

given the splatter-like Highlander effect now attributed to usurpation, but

it does make it a bit more like the original stab through the heart

method. Also, it`s too open to weird events. A scion pushed from a castle

tower, for instance, would both bleed and technically dies as a result of

hand-to-hand combat, so he`d go off like like a little blooded hand grenade

on impact, and that`s just not very elegant (in several senses of the

word.) Also, it makes for a weird bludgeoning v. slashing/piercing weapons

issue. Does a scion killed by a hammer provoke usurpation? What are the

chances of a contusion that also breaks the skin? I don`t think we really

need that table....

Also, I just don`t think we need the description of the physical sensation

of usurpation. The BRCS actually describes the effects of someone with a

low bloodline dying as being felt as "a slight tingling perceptible only to

those in the immediate area of effect." That`s a bit silly. Ooh, did

someone tickle me or was that a minor noble getting murdered? If we really

have to have some sort of description of the feeling of usurpation or

bloodline, the word "tingle" should probably be avoided.

Other changes that should probably be reconsidered (other than the name

Usurpation since that word has many more political implications than

murderous ones--a problem for the political emphasis of BR) are the method

bloodline derivation can change when the act is committed. The original

version of this is IMO better; only Azrai`s blood is corrupting. It

conveys more significance to the affect of that derivation, and makes more

sense given the history of the setting. Gaining a bloodline through

bloodtheft is also badly done. While I like the idea and approve of the

effort to reflect what has happened in the case of several awnsheghlien,

the Playtest`s mechanics need serious consideration. A DC 20 check using

character level as a bonus is far too easy. Scions would have a very short

life expectancy given the number of people who would be willing to bludgeon

them into unconsciousness and kill them in the hope of gaining a bloodline

if that method is used. Even Joe Teenage Commoner has a 1 in 20 chance of

gaining a bloodline that way.

In the spirit of suggesting an alternative rather than simply criticizing,

an opposed roll might be more appropriate. If one were to try to keep the

"stab through the heart" method in place in 3e there are several ways that

it might be done, one or two of which have been noted. An opposed roll is

an option. There are different values that could be used for such a check;

BAB, Reflex bonus, strength or dexterity might be appropriate things from

which to get a bonus. (I personally favor a wisdom based skill check, but

that method would probably be of interest only to me and a few other

polyskillaholics.) Gaining a bloodline for non-scions through bloodtheft

could be the result of a critical success on that opposed roll. A

"natural" 20 followed by a successful check against the original opposed

value. That would make it much more rare and not something that just any

commoner is going to give a shot.

There are a few other fundamental things about the BRCS`s handling of

bloodline that should probably be reviewed and revised, most of which

appear to be based on decisions about what could be reflected using the

rules rather than campaign material, and if given some attention they will

probably not survive a rewrite. For example, the way bloodline score is

handed down to offspring. According to the BRCS Playtest bloodline is an

ability score, and because of that bloodline score is not strictly the

average of the parents` bloodline score as was originally written, and that

makes sense... if bloodline is an ability score. As an ability score why

shouldn`t it vary a bit? After all two intelligent people do not

necessarily have intelligent children, so why should two highly blooded

characters have offspring that is similarly blooded? Such things are more

of a tendency than anything else, so there should be some text reflecting that.

Bloodline as an ability score would appear to be one of the things that is

going to be changed in the official version of the BRCS, and I`d like to

suggest that the system of bloodtheft should be too. It`s a better

reflection of campaign themes if the original stab through the heart method

of bloodtheft is preserved--even if that means we only have the coup de

grace method of bloodtheft in the BRCS since folks on the team seem so

reluctant to include new rules and methods that aren`t strictly included in

the 3e/3.5 rules.

>Many people had their own house rules for critical hits and locations but

>there really wasn`t an `official` system issued until PS:C&T, which

>was an `optional` book.

I think people still have their house rules for bloodtheft since the issue

has still never been satisfactorily addressed.

Gary

kgauck

09-29-2003, 10:01 PM

I regard stabing through the heart as color. Or maybe its an idea that`s

widely believed, but not actually true. Either way, I think its goofy, and

instead restrict bloodtheft to fights of dramtic importance, honor, and

defence of the realm. Oh yeah, and DM fiat. Dueling is basically a

struggle for blood power between nobles. Bloodtheft is not all or nothing,

unless the circumstances of the fight allows the winner to sieze the loser`s

whole realm.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

ryancaveney

09-29-2003, 10:30 PM

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> I regard stabing through the heart as color. Or maybe its an idea that`s

> widely believed, but not actually true. Either way, I think its goofy,

I concur.

> and instead restrict bloodtheft to fights of dramtic importance,

> honor, and defence of the realm. Oh yeah, and DM fiat.

I allow it rather more often than this, but I can see the attraction.

> Dueling is basically a struggle for blood power between nobles.

> Bloodtheft is not all or nothing, unless the circumstances of the

> fight allows the winner to sieze the loser`s whole realm.

Interesting. Could you give a few examples of partial bloodtheft?

Ryan Caveney

Osprey

09-29-2003, 11:46 PM

It has always been my impression that bloodtheft isn't such a rare, epic event. Given characters like the Gorgon, who have made a generational career out of it, he's sure to inspire many "copycats," and the original BR books suggested that there are some scions (mainly non-regents) who make a career out of dueling and bloodthefting other scions.

The only way this ever made much sense to me is that there are a LOT of blooded scions born out there - far more than there are regents. Considering that more children = greater chance that one survives as heir, and that most scions have some sort of special power(s), it seems likely that many scions will try to "be fruitful and multiply." Then factor in all the cadet branches that have founded their own blooded houses through several thousand years of breeding and intermarriage. The result would be very many weak bloodlines, and very VERY few strong ones. How many generations are born in 2500 years (I believe that is app. how much time has passed since Deismaar, yes?)

Bloodtheft has brought up a few issues in my own campaign:

1. Does a scion have to reach an age of majority (say, 15 or 21) before gaining access to his blood abilities?

2. At what age can a scion be bloodthefted? If an infant could be bloodthefted, imagine the Gorgon or some other villain imprisoning blooded breeders and bloodthefting the infants en masse. Sick, but all too believable.

3. Why doesn't the Gorgon have a much higher Bloodline score if he has been harvesting Anuirean scions every few generations for the last few thousand years? You do the math...

4. Could several scions join together in a coup de grace when delivering the blow to the heart? 4 hands on one sword, for instance, splitting the released power...

kgauck

09-30-2003, 12:38 AM

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>

Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 4:52 PM

> Interesting. Could you give a few examples of partial bloodtheft?

The daughter of Eorl Huthbar has fallen in love with a young rake (PC

adventurer) named Arngeir who also happens to be the son of Eorl Bjorn,

whose realm is naught but forest. Huthbar refuses the match, but avoids

insulting the young rake. Huthbar`s son and heir, however, is rash and

outside Huthbar`s camp issues an unforgivable insult to the very lineage of

the young rake. Arngeir is faced with several probelms if he does not

defend his honor. His reputation for cowardice will increase, he will

almost certainly lose any ground to win the hand of Huthbar`s daughter, and

he will have been humbled by someone who will one day sit across from him in

the king`s great council. So, he draws his weapon and challenges Huthbar`s

son`s courage. Now a fight is inevitable and the two families are

effectivly feuding, putting the honor of both at stake. Both men are

accompanied by friends who act to diffuse the situation, fail, and ultimatly

end up negotiating the terms of the duel between them. They will fight to

first blood with short swords. Arngeir wins the fight and seriously wounds

the son of Huthbar.

Now I could regard this as a minor loss of Regency for Huthbar, and a minor

gain for Arngeir, but if I am going to reduce the one and increase the other

by a point, I may as well regard it as a minor bloodtheft. In this case, I

have two clear issues at stake, the honor between two noble heirs and the

question of Arngeir and Huthbar`s daughter. So I start with a 2 point

bloodtheft, and then modifiy it by the difference in each man`s CHA

modifier, to a minimum of one point to Arngeir.

Huthbar is now in a bind. His son has been humiliated, having issued an

insult and then lost the challenge, and the feud might not die down,

creating an enemy of Bjorn`s whole house. So, Huthbar acknowledges the

prowess of Aurngeir, consents to the marriage of his daughter to the victor,

and ends the feud.

Or, more seriously. The reknown guilder Hofkirche is arrayed as leader of a

coalition of rulers including several guilders, and the local landed ruler

and church of Sera. His great rival Ronald Nodarch of Mueden includes his

own large guild, the famed mercenary captain Hubert, and the local temple of

Ela. Hofkirche is repuded to have called Ronald a fool who has bungled

several large deals, leaving Hofkirche the richer. The guilder Nodarch

demands an apology. Hofkirche insists that he never gave any such insults

so no appology can be given. Nodarch interprets this as all but saying he

is a liar. Using his allies in the temple of Ela, Ronald Nodarch locates

the movements of Hofkirche and challenges him in the public square of

Westbralen. Hofkirche is aware that if he does not respond, he will produce

a substantial circumstantial bonus to any wispering campaign that Nodarch

and his Elan allies undertake against him. The reknown guilder again

rejected all Nodarch`s charges and demands Nodarch stand aside. The

lieutenants of Nodarch and Hofkirche try to mediate on the spot, but to no

avail. The question will be settled by rapier tomorrow at the same time.

Hofkirche is a specialist in klauenstrichen as well as being noted for his

ability to disarm opponants. He practices to brush up on his skills.

Nodarch tries a different strategy. The following day, Hofkirche

demonstrates his superuior sword work and avoiding all of Nodarch`s strikes,

lays in wait to catch Nodarch off balance and disarm him. With his rapier

cast aside, Hofkirche has won the day and lowers his sword. Nodarch moves

forward as if to congradulate the victor, but instead pulls a concealed

dagger from his shirt and stabs Hofkirche forcefully under the ribcage in an

upeard motion. Hofkirche is dead. Had Nodarch killed Hofkirche in strait

out single combat, he could have taken all of the reknowned guilder`s blood

power, but having lost the combat and stolen the kill, he only gets a third.

By the way, guild war opens up between Hofkirche`s successors and Nodarch,

recently empowered. With his allies in Quick Fingers, Nodarch exacts a high

price in assasinations, but Sera`s priests in Fortune`s Forethought keep the

guilds of Hofkirche`s successors in plenty of coin. Ultimatly, Nodarch is

beset on too many contested holdings, and the priests of Sera convince the

temples of Ela to switch sides. Nodarch flees into exile, his own bloodline

enhanced by some of Hofkirche`s power, but likewise reduced by the

catastrophic blow of so much loss to his holdings.

For those looking for hints on how to use real history for plot ideas, I

adapted the duel between Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr for this story.

The famous duel sets the kernal of the story and I take liberties as the

situation suggests itself given the Brecht setting.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

geeman

09-30-2003, 11:55 AM

At 01:46 AM 9/30/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:

>Bloodtheft has brought up a few issues in my own campaign:

Several of these things have been brought up in the past. Here appears to

be the general take on most of these situations, though surely somewhat

colored by my own opinions:

> 1. Does a scion have to reach an age of majority (say, 15 or 21) before

> gaining access to his blood abilities?

Yes, s/he does. Certain blood abilities would seem to preclude the

possibility of bloodlines kicking in before maturation. Going through the

"terrible twos" with Divine Wrath, for instance, or the spectacle of a

scion with the Long Life blood ability remaining in a nearly perpetual

stage of infancy. Some folks suggest that scions should have to learn

their abilities by going through some sort of adventuring

process. Sometimes this is reflected using character levels in a scion

class from which these characters derive their abilities.

> 2. At what age can a scion be bloodthefted? If an infant could be

> bloodthefted, imagine the Gorgon or some other villain imprisoning

> blooded breeders and bloodthefting the infants en masse. Sick, but all

> too believable.

This one is related to #1, I think most people assume that bloodtheft

cannot be done until a character gains his/her blood abilities upon

reaching some sort of age of majority.

> 3. Why doesn`t the Gorgon have a much higher Bloodline score if he has

> been harvesting Anuirean scions every few generations for the last few

> thousand years? You do the math...

This one comes up fairly regularly... though it`s been a while, so I guess

we`re past due ;) Essentially, there`s not much of a refutation for the

"reality" of bloodtheft working as you`ve suggested, though several people

do suggest that the solution is the DM employing a familial in-fighting

sort of solution to the problem. That is, even the Gorgon must be leary of

having offspring in order to raise his own bloodlien (even if he has to

wait 15-20 years for them to be "ripe") since such an activity would lend

itself to resentment and betrayal on the part of the mothers, their

relatives and nearly anyone who found out what was going on. It`s also

been suggested that one shouldn`t be able to raise one`s bloodline by

committing bloodtheft on a child of one`s own bloodline since they are

inherently the same and would not stack (in 3e terms) the way bloodtheft on

a scion of another lineage would.

It should also be pointed out, however, that the Gorgon`s bloodline is

"100+" which is pretty vague. It could be 101, it could be 999, it could

even be four digits. Nobody knows. Given that, it`s entirely possible he

has a creche in the basement that he`s been harvesting for the past 1,500

years....

> 4. Could several scions join together in a coup de grace when delivering

> the blow to the heart? 4 hands on one sword, for instance, splitting the

> released power...

Interesting point. I don`t know. I think it makes sense, but I`m not sure

how I`d address the issue. Maybe the BRCS`s rules for a sort of general

usurpation (as opposed to bloodtheft by stabbing in the heart) could be

used as guidelines for such a situation?

Gary

Osprey

09-30-2003, 04:07 PM

Somehow the formatting got all wierd on the last post, and I couldn't edit it properly, so I'm reposting the proper version:

Certain blood abilities would seem to preclude the
possibility of bloodlines kicking in before maturation. Going through the
"terrible twos" with Divine Wrath, for instance

Heh, heh, a colorful example... You definitely got a chuckle out of me. :D

or the spectacle of a
scion with the Long Life blood ability remaining in a nearly perpetual
stage of infancy

On a related note, I decided to tone down the Long Life ability, and make it much rarer than the BRCS tables suggest. If it's a common ability at the stated ranges, there would be a LOT of long-lived regents in Anuire, and a lot of resentful heirs getting more and more impatient because mom or dad's been regent forever...

I decided a more realistic approach was Minor (1:2 aging rate after majority at age 21), Major (1:5), and Great (1:10). It still makes for very long lives, but 1:100 is pretty outrageous IMO.

I also reserve Immortality for True bloodlines (this being the single greatest blood ability, IMO), but include immortality in regards to aging (the character stops aging when they gain this ability).

3. Why doesn`t the Gorgon have a much higher Bloodline score if he has
> been harvesting Anuirean scions every few generations for the last few
> thousand years? You do the math...

This one comes up fairly regularly... though it`s been a while, so I guess
we`re past due ;) Essentially, there`s not much of a refutation for the
"reality" of bloodtheft working as you`ve suggested, though several people
do suggest that the solution is the DM employing a familial in-fighting
sort of solution to the problem. That is, even the Gorgon must be leary of
having offspring in order to raise his own bloodlien (even if he has to
wait 15-20 years for them to be "ripe") since such an activity would lend
itself to resentment and betrayal on the part of the mothers, their
relatives and nearly anyone who found out what was going on. It`s also
been suggested that one shouldn`t be able to raise one`s bloodline by
committing bloodtheft on a child of one`s own bloodline since they are
inherently the same and would not stack (in 3e terms) the way bloodtheft on
a scion of another lineage would.

It should also be pointed out, however, that the Gorgon`s bloodline is
"100," which is pretty vague. It could be 101, it could be 999, it could
even be four digits. Nobody knows. Given that, it`s entirely possible he
has a creche in the basement that he`s been harvesting for the past 1,500
years....

I was actually referring to the Gorgon harvesting the bloodlines of Anuirean nobles and their children every few generations. I actually see this as the Gorgon's primary reason for rampaging through Anuire. His armies do a lot of damage, but are ultimately defeated or retreat every time. By now, the Gorgon must know he won't conquer all of Anuire with his current resources, but throw in the benefit ofpruning the bloodlines and domains of Anuirean families that have become strong, and it makes sense in the Gorgon's big picture. If he does damage to domains and trims the fat from blooded families (by eliminating all but one regent or heir, for example, and perhaps a few women might be spared to encourage future breeding), he sets up a situation where the new rulers will strengthen their bloodlines through restoring their battered realms, AND makes certain no one realm has the opportunity to become strong enough to retake the Iron Throne. The current situation of disunity and feuding is far more to his liking...

Conflict breeds strength, a fact I believe the Gorgon lives by (reminds me of Gruumsh One-Eye, actually, which is appropriate).

4. Could several scions join together in a coup de grace when delivering
> the blow to the heart? 4 hands on one sword, for instance, splitting the
> released power...

Interesting point. I don`t know. I think it makes sense, but I`m not sure
how I`d address the issue. Maybe the BRCS`s rules for a sort of general
usurpation (as opposed to bloodtheft by stabbing in the heart) could be
used as guidelines for such a situation?

In my own campaign, I kept it simple: simply split the RP 4 ways (as per the BRCS system) with a collective blow through the heart.

-Osprey

ryancaveney

09-30-2003, 04:18 PM

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Gary wrote:

> At 01:46 AM 9/30/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:

>

> > 2. At what age can a scion be bloodthefted? If an infant could be

> > bloodthefted, imagine the Gorgon or some other villain imprisoning

> > blooded breeders and bloodthefting the infants en masse. Sick, but

> > all too believable.

>

> This one is related to #1, I think most people assume that bloodtheft

> cannot be done until a character gains his/her blood abilities upon

> reaching some sort of age of majority.

This can also be related to one of the options in #3:

> It`s also been suggested that one shouldn`t be able to raise one`s

> bloodline by committing bloodtheft on a child of one`s own bloodline

> since they are inherently the same and would not stack (in 3e terms)

> the way bloodtheft on a scion of another lineage would.

In the following, everytime you see "kill", please read it as "commit

bloodtheft upon", which is just too long to write several dozen times.

What I am saying here is completely independent of issues regarding kills

without bloodtheft or bloodtheft (even bloodline investiture) without

kills; perhaps I should have used "CBU" below instead -- it`s what I mean.

Note that by committing bloodtheft on someone, you in some sense join or

assume their bloodline; therefore, if you kill a child`s parents, from

then on the child *counts as yours* for bloodline purposes, which means

you cannot gain any further bloodline points by killing the child. One

could throw the genetics of bloodlines in here and say that if you kill

only one parent and then the child, or a child and then its parent, only

half of the bloodline score from the second kill would be a duplicate

bloodline, so you could stack half the score. (That is, you get the

points you would have for killing someone with half the victim`s bloodline

score; if you were higher to start with and aren`t using tighmaevril, the

one point you would get without this rule stays unchanged.)

Note that the "half" for parent-then-child assumes both parents have equal

bloodlines. For example, consider a scion who is the child of a blooded

and an unblooded parent. If you kill the unblooded parent, of course you

gain no bloodline score from it, and all the child`s blood would still

stack with yours. If you kill the blooded parent, none of the child`s

blood would stack with yours, because you`ve got all that bloodline (and

more besides) already. If one parent is a 30 and the other a 10, if you

kill the 10 then the child, the child`s 20 counts as only 15 (half of the

30, the parent you didn`t kill); if you kill the 30 then the child, the

child`s 20 counts as only 5 (half of the 10, the parent you didn`t kill).

Child-then-parent(s), by contrast, is always exactly half, and for each

parent separately (unless the parents are blood relatives, which makes the

genetics more complicated, but we`ll ignore that for now; extensive

genealogies would be necessary to consider such effects).

This model does not account for changes in bloodline by means other than

direct parent-to-child inheritance; they could be accomodated

straightforwardly, but I won`t show you the math at this time.

You could also try a "one bloodline point per gene" model, and consider

that if you get only 1 point out of 30 for killing a blooded parent, you`d

be left with a 29/30 chance to get from killing the child one you didn`t

already have; however, here you should also consider whether in the last

1500 years you and the victims have had any ancestors in common (highly

likely among nobels in Anuire, but not at all likely for an elf killing a

goblin). To keep from having to make full genealogies for absolutely

everyone, I suggest a model in which there are a fixed maximum number of

blood points possible in each derivation (100, 1000, 1,000,000, whatever),

and whenever you commit bloodtheft, determine the number of points you`d

get under normal rules, and then for each of those points roll to see

whether you`ve got that one already (probability of your score / max

score). For extra fancy detail, you could in principle track scores in

all seven derivations for every scion, with the bloodline score being the

total of the seven subscores, and the derivation being that of the

plurality of subscore points (break ties in favor of Azrai ;), and then

randomly). I`ve played with this, but it`s not seemed much worth it in

any situation where most bloodlines are much less than the max; if the

Gorgon kills the Spider with tighmaevril, however, I`d do something like

this to reduce his take due to excessive overlap.

> > 3. Why doesn`t the Gorgon have a much higher Bloodline score if he has

> > been harvesting Anuirean scions every few generations for the last few

> > thousand years? You do the math...

>

> That is, even the Gorgon must be leary of having offspring in order to

> raise his own bloodlien (even if he has to wait 15-20 years for them

> to be "ripe") since such an activity would lend itself to resentment

> and betrayal on the part of the mothers, their relatives and nearly

> anyone who found out what was going on.

Here`s one very simple possible answer: the Gorgon is sterile. He is

turning into stone, after all. Killing your own children certainly

seems like the kind of act likely to accelerate this transformation

according to the "poetic justice" and "heart on your sleeve" nature of the

awnsheghlification process. Maybe he did this a few times in his youth,

but for a thousand years he`s been stone enough to be infertile.

> It should also be pointed out, however, that the Gorgon`s bloodline is

> "100+" which is pretty vague. It could be 101, it could be 999, it

> could even be four digits. Nobody knows. Given that, it`s entirely

> possible he has a creche in the basement that he`s been harvesting for

> the past 1,500 years....

Yes indeed -- but in 1,500 years, why hasn`t anyone else copied him?

> > 4. Could several scions join together in a coup de grace when

> > delivering the blow to the heart? 4 hands on one sword, for

> > instance, splitting the released power...

This setup is just begging for a Land`s Choice effect. Four hands on the

sword could certainly deliver the killing pierce through the heart, but

that doesn`t necessarily mean they have to split the bloodtheft equally.

Maybe they do, or maybe the "most deserving" one gets it all, or maybe the

process gets confused and no one gets anything, or... The possibilities

are endless.

Ryan Caveney

geeman

09-30-2003, 06:36 PM

At 12:09 PM 9/30/2003 -0400, Ryan Caveney wrote:

>Here`s one very simple possible answer: the Gorgon is sterile. He is

>turning into stone, after all. Killing your own children certainly

>seems like the kind of act likely to accelerate this transformation

>according to the "poetic justice" and "heart on your sleeve" nature of the

>awnsheghlification process. Maybe he did this a few times in his youth,

>but for a thousand years he`s been stone enough to be infertile.

That`s a good idea, but the Gorgon could get around it by not being the

father himself. If he`s going to enslave and imprison women in this

particularly heinous and revolting way then maybe a stud or two would be an

intelligent addition to his breeding program.

Hey, maybe that`s what he`s doing with Fhileraene?!? An immortal stud for

breeding purposes sounds like a much better plan than trying to keep humans

around since they keep dying off (or simply aging past their prime breeding

years) so quickly.... Of course, the maturation of half-elf children would

take more time, but he`s got plenty of time on his hands as previously

noted. There`s also the supposed lower fertility rate amongst elves, which

would make Fhileraene less desirable as breeding stock, though nobody

really knows how that works.

> > It should also be pointed out, however, that the Gorgon`s bloodline is

> > "100+" which is pretty vague. It could be 101, it could be 999, it

> > could even be four digits. Nobody knows. Given that, it`s entirely

> > possible he has a creche in the basement that he`s been harvesting for

> > the past 1,500 years....

>

>Yes indeed -- but in 1,500 years, why hasn`t anyone else copied him?

They may have tried it... who knows? Most of the role-playing effects

(hatred by the enslaved mothers, sympathetic guards and witnesses, etc.)

seem more apt for other scions rather than the Gorgon since he has a few

advantages if he tried to do this kind of thing over other Cerilians. His

kingdom is much less easily travelled than others, and his keep a

forbidding, largely unexplored place which lends itself to the whole

"Dungeon of Degenerate Doings" while remaining secret. There`s also his

Long Life ability, which allows him to take the long view regarding such

things. Other scions cannot realistically expect to wait 15-20 years for

the fruits of their labors to ripen, where the Gorgon can take the long view.

Gary

Osprey

09-30-2003, 06:56 PM

There`s also his
Long Life ability, which allows him to take the long view regarding such
things. Other scions cannot realistically expect to wait 15-20 years for
the fruits of their labors to ripen, where the Gorgon can take the long view.

Gary

Well, that depends how rare Long Life is in your campaign. It seems that ability has been opened up to all scions, which would promote more human scions taking the "long view" as well.

BTW, does the Gorgon also have the Immortality power? If so, do you think that would supercede long life?

An immortal stud for breeding purposes sounds like a much better plan than trying to keep humans around since they keep dying off (or simply aging past their prime breeding years) so quickly.

I would think the brief life cycles would be to his advantage, as it means higher breeding rates = more harvesting of bloodlines. Given his powers as a wizard (including all the goody enchantment spells like Charm, Dominate, and Suggestion), not to mention all of his powers of intimidation and force, I doubt the Gorgon would have any difficulty in succeeding with such a plot.

geeman

09-30-2003, 08:17 PM

At 08:56 PM 9/30/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:

>
There`s also his Long Life ability, which allows him to take the

> long view regarding such

> things. Other scions cannot realistically expect to wait 15-20 years for

> the fruits of their labors to ripen, where the Gorgon can take the long view.

>

>

> Well, that depends how rare Long Life is in your campaign. It seems

> that ability has been opened up to all scions, which would promote more

> human scions taking the "long view" as well.

True, though there doesn`t appear to be that many non-awnsheghlien who have

it in the published materials--at least, not many major characters--which

is usually my guide on such things. The actual distribution of blood

abilities according to the respective tables is something that occasionally

gets critiqued--quite rightly IMO. Long Life is one of those blood

abilities that would probably very quickly get common pretty quickly if a

"natural selection" kind of take were put into blood abilities. (Kind of

like the strange declination of Cerilian elves despite their otherwise

superior racial traits....)

> BTW, does the Gorgon also have the Immortality power? If so, do you

> think that would supercede long life?

Raesene was merely a mortal Anuirean male before Deismaar.

>
An immortal stud for breeding purposes sounds like a much better

> plan than trying to keep humans around since they keep dying off (or

> simply aging past their prime breeding years) so quickly.

>

> I would think the brief life cycles would be to his advantage, as it

> means higher breeding rates = more harvesting of bloodlines. Given his

> powers as a wizard (including all the goody enchantment spells like

> Charm, Dominate, and Suggestion), not to mention all of his powers of

> intimidation and force, I doubt the Gorgon would have any difficulty in

> succeeding with such a plot.

I think it`s pretty likely too, personally....

Gary

Osprey

09-30-2003, 08:28 PM

BTW, does the Gorgon also have the Immortality power? If so, do you
> think that would supercede long life?

Raesene was merely a mortal Anuirean male before Deismaar.

Sure, BEFORE Deismaar, but now he's got a True bloodline of Azrai with a higher Bloodline score than any other scion in Cerilia. He's certainly a likely candidate.

irdeggman

10-01-2003, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by Osprey@Sep 30 2003, 03:28 PM

BTW, does the Gorgon also have the Immortality power? If so, do you
> think that would supercede long life?

Raesene was merely a mortal Anuirean male before Deismaar.

Sure, BEFORE Deismaar, but now he's got a True bloodline of Azrai with a higher Bloodline score than any other scion in Cerilia. He's certainly a likely candidate.
What Immortality power? Are you refering to Long Life (Great)? He did have the Long Life (Great) blood ability.

irdeggman

10-01-2003, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by ryancaveney@Sep 30 2003, 11:18 AM
> This one is related to #1, I think most people assume that bloodtheft

> cannot be done until a character gains his/her blood abilities upon

> reaching some sort of age of majority.

This can also be related to one of the options in #3:

> It`s also been suggested that one shouldn`t be able to raise one`s

> bloodline by committing bloodtheft on a child of one`s own bloodline

> since they are inherently the same and would not stack (in 3e terms)

> the way bloodtheft on a scion of another lineage would.

> > 4. Could several scions join together in a coup de grace when

> > delivering the blow to the heart? 4 hands on one sword, for

> > instance, splitting the released power...

This setup is just begging for a Land`s Choice effect. Four hands on the

sword could certainly deliver the killing pierce through the heart, but

that doesn`t necessarily mean they have to split the bloodtheft equally.

Maybe they do, or maybe the "most deserving" one gets it all, or maybe the

process gets confused and no one gets anything, or... The possibilities

are endless.

Ryan Caveney

Ryan, it seems that you have meshed in bloodline into bloodtheft. Bloodline is a family thing and not a derivation one. I truncated my copy of your post for length and you did seem to allude to this by sugggesting tracking all 7 derivations but you did seem to lack the tie-in of the 'mix' to a certain bloodline (i.e., Avan's bloodline would be comprised of a certain percentage of And, a certain percentage of Br, etc.) Now this wouldn't really work once a marraige occured since the ofspring would have different mix and would thus not be of Avan's blooline anymore.

A bloodline could not be stolen by bloodtheft in the 2nd ed rules. Bloodtheft would steal bloodline strength (the numerical value) and conceivably change the derivation (see Legends of the Hero Kings for this one) but there was no mention of stealing a bloodline itself.

While I see your point on this, IMO it causes more problems than it is worth. For instance why hasn't someone tried this on Avan in order to increase their claim to the Iron Throne by stealing the Avan bloodline (i.e., Boeroune)?

I would see a transferance of a bloodline as more on the lines of an Investiture type of thing. That is a much bigger and more complex action than bloodtheft.

irdeggman

10-01-2003, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Osprey@Sep 29 2003, 10:37 AM
Stabbing a person through the heart with a mortal blow:

The easiest solution is requiring a Coup de Grace. In my own campaign, I found this was the typical way in which such bloodtheft occurs. The enemy is rendered unconscious (0 to -9 HP), and a character takes a full round action to drive a blade through the heart. Game over.

For conscious opponents, it's much trickier. Here was my solution:

Hitting the heart is a Called Shot. Like striking an object, this provokes an attack of opportunity. This can only be accomplished with a piercing melee weapon.
Based on size (heart = Diminutive), the defender gets a +4 AC bonus against this attack. If a DM would rule that Bloodtheft requires a "direct hit through the center of the heart," they could make it a Fine target and give a +8 AC bonus. I think this is a bit harsh, however, and go with +4.

Against mortal opponents (where the heart is a vital area), such a hit would count as a critical hit, and do appropriate damage based on the weapon type.

A failed attempt is a normal miss (kind of harsh, but such attacks shouldn't be too risk-free).

If the damage is enough to take the victim to -10 HP or lower, then Bloodtheft occurs as per the BRCS rules for death by a stab through the heart.

For a more challenging (hard-to-accomplish) set of rules, check out Ravenloft's rules for staking Vampires through the heart (I don't have the info here - sorry). The mechanics should be fairly synonomous.

-Osprey
Interesting concept.

One flaw in the mechanics though. If a blow through the heart counts as a critical then the critical rules have been bypassed. Say with modifiers the target has an AC of 26 and an AC of 30 for a 'blow through the heart' and the attacker only has a +4 total attack modifier. The attacker would hit on a natural 20 (always hits) even though he wouldn't have been able to normally hit the target. So the attacker would score the 'critical hit' on the heart and do critical damage even though he would need to roll another 20 in order to do a critical hit to the overall victim.

As I pointed out earlier that PO:C&T had the rules for these things, including Called Shots - which also don't exist in 3/3.5 even under the special attacks that they just inserted. We have got to drop 2nd ed thinking, even though the details of things like this strike us as necessary. The entire game mechanic system has been changed and we need to think it those terms.

As far as using the Coup de Grace for a killing blow through the heart, it would work mechanics wise. The only problem is that in most combats the killing blow actually ends up knocking the victim's hitpoints below -10, at least that's what our gaming group has discovered.

Osprey

10-01-2003, 02:26 PM

What Immortality power? Are you refering to Long Life (Great)? He did have the Long Life (Great) blood ability.

Oops - I meant Invulnerability. My appraoch has been to tone down Long Life and make Invulnerability available only to True bloodlines, but expand the power to include that the being can ONLY die in a certain way. Aging stops. But even without my own tweak, the question was whther the Gorgon had the Invulnerability power. I know he doesn't in the BRCS writeup, but I consider the Gorgon's stats up for debate.

Osprey

10-01-2003, 02:34 PM

One flaw in the mechanics though. If a blow through the heart counts as a critical then the critical rules have been bypassed. Say with modifiers the target has an AC of 26 and an AC of 30 for a 'blow through the heart' and the attacker only has a +4 total attack modifier. The attacker would hit on a natural 20 (always hits) even though he wouldn't have been able to normally hit the target. So the attacker would score the 'critical hit' on the heart and do critical damage even though he would need to roll another 20 in order to do a critical hit to the overall victim.

3.x D&D doesn't have rules for Called Shots, but other D20 systems do (and they work as I described above). I think that mechanics for Called Shots are a good add-in, especially in a case like Bloodtheft by stabbing through the heart.

If you want to make it a bit more like the Crit. system in place, then you can require a second normal attack success if the Called Shot hits. If the second roll is a normal hit, the blow is a critical. If the second roll misses, the blow does normal damage.

I think only the Crit. Success would count as a "blow through the heart" for purposes of Bloodtheft.

-Osprey

irdeggman

10-01-2003, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Osprey@Oct 1 2003, 09:26 AM

What Immortality power? Are you refering to Long Life (Great)? He did have the Long Life (Great) blood ability.

Oops - I meant Invulnerability. My appraoch has been to tone down Long Life and make Invulnerability available only to True bloodlines, but expand the power to include that the being can ONLY die in a certain way. Aging stops. But even without my own tweak, the question was whther the Gorgon had the Invulnerability power. I know he doesn't in the BRCS writeup, but I consider the Gorgon's stats up for debate.
The big G did not have invulnerability in 2nd ed, he did have regeneration (normal and major) though.

ryancaveney

10-02-2003, 03:42 AM

On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, irdeggman wrote:

> Ryan, it seems that you have meshed in bloodline into bloodtheft.

Well, yeah. That`s what it is. Bloodtheft means exactly "stealing

someone`s bloodline". What else could it mean?

> Now this wouldn`t really work once a marraige occured since the

> ofspring would have different mix and would thus not be of Avan`s

> blooline anymore.

Of course it does! You always have to track both: children are averages.

Avan`s children are a mixture of his bloodline and their mother`s. In my

usage, Avan`s bloodline is *unique to him* -- his children have different

bloodlines, as should be obvious in the numbers. What exactly do you

suppose "Avan`s bloodline" means, if not precisely "the thing measured by

Avan`s bloodline score"? Scions and their children have similar ancestry

(but even of that they probably share not much more than half), but that`s

not what I think bloodline means in Cerilia -- I think "bloodline" is

exactly as much a technical term of the game system as "hit points" is,

and understood in-game by Cerilians to have as technical and demonstrable

as definition as "height" or "hair color", with similar understanding of

the interplay of inheritance and experience. In Cerilia, it shouldn`t

mean merely "family" -- it should always be used precisely to mean

"magical connection to the gods which allows regency."

> A bloodline could not be stolen by bloodtheft in the 2nd ed rules.

> Bloodtheft would steal bloodline strength (the numerical value) and

> conceivably change the derivation (see Legends of the Hero Kings for

> this one) but there was no mention of stealing a bloodline itself.

I don`t see why you think this is a real distinction. Consider for

example, bloodtheft by tighmaevril. The slayer gains half the victim`s

bloodline, exactly as the victim`s children do. The slayer then passes on

half those blood points to his own offspring, exactly the same fraction

(1/4) of the original victim`s bloodline as the victim`s own natural

grandchildren. To me "bloodline" in the Cerilian context means exactly a

derivation and a strength score, and whatever underlying magical biology

acts as the transmission mechanism. Nothing more, nothing less. Even

clearer is bloodline investiture: for all purposes regarding rulership,

property inheritance, rights and responsibilities of relatives and other

familiar, familial concerns of the nobility, if regent A abdicates and

transfers his bloodline to commoner B, who then becomes regent in A`s

place, B *legally becomes* A. For example, IMO, any children B had before

the transfer and any A has after are not blooded and considered unrelated,

but A`s prior children and B`s subsequent children are considered blood

siblings -- because they share the same blood(line) parent. In my vision

of Cerilia, the magical energy of the bloodline score is much more

important in determining dynastic inheritance than "blood relation" in the

kinship correlation sense of RW genetics.

> While I see your point on this, IMO it causes more problems than it is

> worth. For instance why hasn`t someone tried this on Avan in order to

> increase their claim to the Iron Throne by stealing the Avan bloodline

> (i.e., Boeroune)?

I think this is exactly what people should do. I think that if Boeruine

were finally to succeed in his ancestors` ancient goals of committing

bloodtheft on Avan, it would literally increase his blood right to the

throne, and I think all the blooded scions of Cerilia would agree! In

Cerilia, divine right of kings is not only literally true, but also

quantifiable and transferrable. Avan is obviously the number one target

of ambitious blooded killers in all Cerilia -- he has the highest

bloodline score of any non-awnshegh. He must spend a significant portion

of his domain`s resources just on keeping himself from being assassinated.

Happily, his primary defense is that his rivals would have to kill him

personally in order to gain anything: sending a contract killer would gain

them his death, but not his bloodline. In fact, I`m quite sure that if

Avan ever took the field against his biggest rivals, his closest aides

would have orders to kill their lord themselves if necessary to prevent

his bloodline from falling into the wrong hands.

> I would see a transferance of a bloodline as more on the lines of an

> Investiture type of thing. That is a much bigger and more complex

> action than bloodtheft.

I think it`s exactly the same thing, The only difference I see is degree

of efficiency of the transfer. Some is gained by the slayer, and some

lost back to the environment.

Ryan Caveney

kgauck

10-02-2003, 05:37 AM

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>

Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 9:57 PM

> > For instance why hasn`t someone tried this on Avan in order to

> > increase their claim to the Iron Throne by stealing the Avan bloodline

>

> I think this is exactly what people should do.

This is all very Homeric. Do you really like the idea that Achillies goes

after Hektor in single combat and decides the fate of Troy? I don`t rule it

out, but after all this is in the context of a regular military operation.

Two people encountering each other lacks the ritual that I think is

essential to the fate of states. War, in this view is a great ritual upon

which is played the fate of states. With divinities like Haelyn, Cuiraecen,

and Belinik, and looking back to Diesmaar, this seems appropraite. A ruler

who is defeated in his bed does not risk his realm when there are able heirs

with access to an army to employ has only lost his life. Did Oedipus gain

Thebes because he was the son of Laius, because he killed Laius at the

crossroads, or because he answered the riddle of the Sphinx? Should anyone

who happens upon Laius and kill the old main gain the state of Thebes?

I prefer that the fate of the person of the ruler not share so intimate a

connection with the realm. The realm is protected by ritual necessity.

Investiture, battle, possessing the instruments of state, having the loyalty

of the realm, the land`s own choice. If the ruler assembles the power of

the state, and then fails, the blow is enormous. If the ruler is jumped on

the side of the road the state is unaffected, but the king is dead.

> Avan is obviously the number one target of ambitious blooded

> killers in all Cerilia -- he has the highest bloodline score of any

> non-awnshegh. He must spend a significant portion of his domain`s

> resources just on keeping himself from being assassinated.

I am not fond of so much encouragement for assasination.

> In fact, I`m quite sure that if Avan ever took the field against his

> biggest rivals, his closest aides would have orders to kill their lord

> themselves if necessary to prevent his bloodline from falling into

> the wrong hands.

This is a disincentive for the great nobles to risk battle, which is the

reverse of what I want. I want Louis of Hungary on the field at Mohacs to

face the Turk. I want Harold and William at Hastings. I want Henry and the

Dauphin at Agincourt.

> if regent A abdicates and transfers his bloodline to commoner B,

> who then becomes regent in A`s place, B *legally becomes* A.

Roman adoption as means of succession. Welcome, Caesar Augustus.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

kgauck

10-02-2003, 05:55 AM

----- Original Message -----

From: "Kenneth Gauck" <kgauck@mchsi.com>

Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 12:06 AM

> Did Oedipus gain Thebes because he was the son of Laius, because

> he killed Laius at the crossroads, or because he answered the riddle

> of the Sphinx?

I should mention a fourth possibility, did Oedipus become king of Thebes

because he married Jocasta. Certainly some Archaic crowns passed

matrilinially, not patrilinially.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

the Falcon

10-02-2003, 01:49 PM

Both Gary`s and Kenneth`s comment have sent me thinking and an idea just

popped into my head. It`s sort of a mix between both of their points of

view.

What if a bloodline is attracted to behavior that exemplifies the ideals of

the deity from which it derives? Perhaps Michael Roele`s bloodpower could

not be absorbed by the Gorgon simply because the whole way the act of

bloodtheft was committed was so un-Anduiras-like that the blood just didn`t

go for it. Add to that Michael Roele`s way of being exerted such a great

attraction Anduiras` blood, while at the same time the Gorgon`s state of

being repulse probably even more, and suddenly it becomes quite clear that

the Gorgon just never had a chance of even getting so much as a drop. Might

I even speculate that perhaps that was even the whole reason Michael Roele

went to the Gorgon`s Crown in the first place, to effectively make sure the

Gorgon would never be able to absorb the Roele bloodline? The conditions

under which the Gorgon slew Michael Roele must have been completely adverse

to Anduiras` ideals. Michael Roele was alone while the Gorgon was not only

fighting on his home turf, but also had the aid of his cohorts and

followers. Going into the heart of the Gorgon`s Crown in search of Prince

Raesene was an act of such extreme bravery and heroism, that surely the old

Anduiras must`ve approved of it. Slaying a foe who you greatly outnumber,

and perhaps even outmatch, clearly is not, which is exactly what the Gorgon

did. And thus Michael Roele had his way. He made sure that no one of evil

intent would ever be able to lay claim to the Roele bloodline, ironically

with the inadvertent help of the one being who coveted it most. Not

only that, the fact that Michaele Roele was willing to sacrifice his

life to safeguard his bloodpowers from falling into the wrong hands,

surely put him in very high standing with his bloodline, essentialy

sealing the fate of the outcome of the whole event before it had ever

happened. How`s that for a dramatic and political scheme?

Azrai`s bloodline on the other hand is a corrupting one. Not only that, it

is a sneaky one. Azrai`s blood is willing to enter anyone, anywhere,

anytime. Once stolen, it will however try to corrupt the bloodline into

which it was absorbed and turn it to Azrai. In game terms, this would be

expressed in an opposed blood check or something similar.

Comments welcome.

--the Falcon

Osprey

10-02-2003, 04:22 PM

> While I see your point on this, IMO it causes more problems than it is
> worth. For instance why hasn`t someone tried this on Avan in order to
> increase their claim to the Iron Throne by stealing the Avan bloodline
> (i.e., Boeroune)?

I think this is exactly what people should do. I think that if Boeruine
were finally to succeed in his ancestors` ancient goals of committing
bloodtheft on Avan, it would literally increase his blood right to the
throne, and I think all the blooded scions of Cerilia would agree! In
Cerilia, divine right of kings is not only literally true, but also
quantifiable and transferrable.

I think the scions of Anuire would agree if the manner were noble - for instance, victory in single combat. If Boeruine assassinated Avan, he might strengthen his bloodline, but few would hail him as worthy to sit on the Iron Throne. Quite the opposite, I think. Boeruine would likely face unified opposition in his bid for emperor!

I tend to agree with Ken on this one - the methods are as important as the blood itself, although I think the bloodline score would go up through bloodtheft regardless of methods. Otherwise, bloodtheft wouldn't be nearly so feared.

For a workable compromise re. mechanics, you might rule that ignoble bloodtheft (especially concerning scions of Anduiras) still gains the normal increase to bloodline score, but it also incurs a loss of regency based on the deed, and the derivations of both scions' bloodlines. So cold-blooded murder by a scion of Anduiras, against a scion of Anduiras (such as Boeruine killing Avan in his sleep, or vice versa), might incur a Great Loss of Regency (which would counter some or all of the gains from bloodtheft, if not result in a net loss!).

And as mentioned before, such an act would be viewed as an atrocity by most Anuirean scions, and Boeruine would never have the collective support he needs to become emperor.

Bloodline is important, but not all-important. If it were that simple, the Emperor could simply be chosen as the regent with the strongest bloodline. But human politics must play a significant role as well to justify the current state of affairs in Anuire.

-Osprey

ryancaveney

10-02-2003, 09:21 PM

On Thu, 2 Oct 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> Two people encountering each other lacks the ritual that I think is

> essential to the fate of states. War, in this view is a great ritual

> upon which is played the fate of states. With divinities like Haelyn,

> Cuiraecen, and Belinik, and looking back to Diesmaar, this seems

> appropraite. A ruler who is defeated in his bed does not risk his

> realm when there are able heirs with access to an army to employ has

> only lost his life. Did Oedipus gain Thebes because he was the son of

> Laius, because he killed Laius at the crossroads, or because he

> answered the riddle of the Sphinx? Should anyone who happens upon

> Laius and kill the old main gain the state of Thebes?

Thank you, Kenneth. I am considering a more direct reply for later, but

for now let me just say that posts like this one are a big part of the

reason I`m still reading this list. You have my sincere thanks for

sharing your erudite philosophy and illuminating issues I had not

previously considered in this way. I admit I often have a too-mechanistic

view of Cerilian metaphysics, and you help keep me balanced. =)

> I am not fond of so much encouragement for assasination.

I`m not fond of it either. I really hate the whole issue, and wish I

could just make it all go away. I just don`t see quite how: magic makes

it all too easy, and politics makes it all too useful. I suspect at least

part of the answer has to do with blood transference: defeat Avan with

glory and honor upon the field, gain much of his bloodline; murder him

secretly with despicable cowardice, gain none of his bloodline --

especially with Anduiras and Haelyn watching over all. Scions of Azrai`s

(and perhaps Brenna`s) derivation, OTOH, especially if ruling lands

inhabited by many worshippers of Eloele or Kriesha, should probably get

better results (more divine favor) by stealth than open battle.

> I want Louis of Hungary on the field at Mohacs to face the Turk. I

> want Harold and William at Hastings. I want Henry and the Dauphin at

> Agincourt.

So do I, especially with scions of Anduiras`s or Basaia`s blood -- but I

worry about how best to keep them there in the context of the other things.

> > if regent A abdicates and transfers his bloodline to commoner B,

> > who then becomes regent in A`s place, B *legally becomes* A.

>

> Roman adoption as means of succession. Welcome, Caesar Augustus.

Indeed! And that history indicates both adopters and adoptees as a group

seem to be substantially above average in terms of quality of rulership.

Non-dilution of the bloodline, perhaps? =)

Ryan Caveney