Is there anything to BR besides a 3E conversion?

[kgauck]

I know I am not alone when I say I am disappointed that this forum has

nothing much to say anymore about the setting anymore. All I ever see is 3E

conversion, a subject I could not find more tedious, since I have long since

completed my own conversion. This forum seems like its in a time warp.



Everyone playing BR already has a conversion. The only reason to keep

plugging away at a formal document is the vain hope that someone somewhere

will stumble on a refernce to BR on dry parchment and investigate it.



No one will be drawn to the game by 95% of anything I`ve seen on this forum

in the past year. I already half expect no one is playing any more. Maybe

they just get so much mail they don`t bother to wade in with a comment on

the Vampire`s motivation, tactics for khinasi horse archers, or thoughts on

divison in Haelyn`s temples.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Prospero]

Perhaps, instead of complaining, you should start such a discussion. Or one of the (apparently) numerous people who agree with you can do such.

And yes, everyone already has a conversion . . . or plays in 2E still. But I, for one, like this project. People are writing more detailed histories for realms which have been, for the most part, left unexplored. It's very interesting to see everyone's take on the different realms and people, and not everyone has the time to do such detail on their own.

Quite frankly, people are attracted to settings by the rules and background, not by discussions over the utility of the Imperial Legion war card versus the Iron Guard war card. By putting all the Birthright material into one document (eventually), it can be spread more easily. Just mention it to some friends, or in a forum, and people can download it and see for themselves.

[Fearless_Leader]

Regardless of your opinions on the forum's topic, I for one can say that I do play BR. In fact, I DM a game with five other players every saturday evening... for the last two years. And while these games have run I have incorporated the rules discussions on this list into them. In fact, in my latest game, I use the BRCS.
Maybe you aren't alone, but don't pretend to speak for the rest of us. With the release of the BRCS and its subsequent discussions, I've seen more people than ever before register with the forums... the BR community has literally expanded by a factor of 10. When the community was only contained to a few hardcore players on the mailing list, there were less than 300 people, now there are thousands.... I see this only as a good thing. The fine tuning of the rules will only produce a better product that will attract more players.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Prospero" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 10:20 PM



> Prospero wrote:

> Perhaps, instead of complaining, you should start such a discussion. Or

> one of the (apparently) numerous people who agree with you can do such.



I have posted more original material than all but a handfull of people.

I`ve done my bit. If the answer was for me to post more, maybe a web site

of my own would be more apporpriate than a mailing list for my own

discussion of BR. Discussion with whom I don`t know.



> People are writing more detailed histories for realms which have been,

> for the most part, left unexplored. It`s very interesting to see

everyone`s

> take on the different realms and people, and not everyone has the time

> to do such detail on their own.



Could you direct me to these posts? I may have missed them.



> By putting all the Birthright material into one document (eventually), it

> can be spread more easily. Just mention it to some friends, or in a

> forum, and people can download it and see for themselves.



Actually I recruit people with my own conversion, since I want to play with

them. Since most games are spread by word of mouth, the version of the game

that spreads is the one being used by players. There may be a very tiny

number who discover the game on their own, but why should the whole forum

spend all of its bandwith discussing a theoretical game rather than the ones

we are playing?



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Fearless_Leader" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 10:24 PM



> Maybe you aren`t alone, but don`t pretend to speak for the rest of us.



Didn`t do that. Claimed I represented at most a dozen people (mostly

because its a nice round number).



> With the release of the BRCS and its subsequent discussions, I`ve seen

> more people than ever before register with the forums... the BR

> community has literally expanded by a factor of 10. When the

> community was only contained to a few hardcore players on the mailing

> list, there were less than 300 people, now there are thousands.... I see

> this only as a good thing. The fine tuning of the rules will only produce

a

> better product that will attract more players.



I think the way we count members has changed. Lists only count people who

subscribe to get mail. Web sites that require regestration for some

purposes will tend to accumulate registrations that lapse. I don`t believe

that the community has grown. I rather suspect its shrinking. I was

willing to believe that a comprehensive CS would attract players a year ago.

I no longer believe that, and to see its discussion so dominate the forums,

crowding out anything else, seems counter productive.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by kgauck@Sep 15 2003, 08:55 PM
I know I am not alone when I say I am disappointed that this forum has

nothing much to say anymore about the setting anymore. All I ever see is 3E

conversion, a subject I could not find more tedious, since I have long since

completed my own conversion. This forum seems like its in a time warp.



Everyone playing BR already has a conversion. The only reason to keep

plugging away at a formal document is the vain hope that someone somewhere

will stumble on a refernce to BR on dry parchment and investigate it.



No one will be drawn to the game by 95% of anything I`ve seen on this forum

in the past year. I already half expect no one is playing any more. Maybe

they just get so much mail they don`t bother to wade in with a comment on

the Vampire`s motivation, tactics for khinasi horse archers, or thoughts on

divison in Haelyn`s temples.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com













So the bottom line is that you don&#39;t think that people should be discussing the topics that are of the most interest to them. The current topic appears to be the BRCS and prior to its being posted the main topic was indeed 3.0 and how to incorporate it, has been for the past 3 years as I recall. So this apparent turn as you see it should have been expected.

This is the same as the discussion on dwarves and damage reduction that turned into the "meaning of Intelligence". People who were interested in the topic posted those who weren&#39;t didn&#39;t, that&#39;s how it generally works.

I have seen recently at least 2 (maybe 3) people that posted and stated that they had never played 2nd ed and were just now starting to play Birthright because of the BRCS. Now, since most people with opinions don&#39;t bother to post or vote, citing the history of US presidential elections as a point of reference, it could be extrapolated that this is a small percentage of those that are actually recently playing Birthright using the BRCS and have never played 2nd ed before.

[Osprey]

I won&#39;t try to speak for anyone except myself and the players I&#39;ve recruited to Birthright over the past year. That&#39;s 8 players (4 in my main game, 4 spread through PBEM+occasional adventures in person) in the last 8 months.

Now, I would say that at least half of those players wouldn&#39;t have been as interested if we weren&#39;t playing 3rd edition D&D. I&#39;ve posted before what I like about 3e over older stuff, so I won&#39;t repeat that. But what I did do is download the BRCS this winter and use it as a base system for those games, and our own playtesting has led to various tweaks and adjustments that I (with consultation from players) thought improved the game.

It was the results of these playtests that kicked me into activity on the BR forums. Having the BRCS as a common basis for discussion has made it possible to debate what we thought was good and what could be improved. I am often frustrated by the feeling that many of the ideas I consider good get ignored or brushed aside, but I have also found good ideas from other posters. And some of the discussions I have thoroughly enjoyed (like our discussion of alignment and metaphysics).

It is my wish that if people decide to use material posted here, let the authors know it. If you like something on the boards, and especially if you decide to integrate it, tell the author. It encourages our creativity and continued work in refining and expanding the BR world. I have been inspired and challenged to refine my exisiting ideas, and create new ones about BR, and am grateful to those with similar interests. That&#39;s why I keep posting.

It is inevitable that a large part of these discussions do revolve around the 3e mechanical conversions. Our recent discussions on variant rules and how to post them have been, IMO, very fruitful - so long as someone follows through and sets up a way to post those variants. I do hope that doesn&#39;t die on the table.

KGauck,
I do want to say, however, that I can sympathise with your position, too. I have found myself getting irritated and tired at points when the arguments over mechanical details and nitpicking go on and on, especially when such comments become derisive and arrogant. That is very discouraging, and doesn&#39;t bring out the best side of me.

If you want to see more world-focused material and discussions, then start topics on those things here in the Royal Library. I know I am always scanning for new threads of interest, and would happily engage in discussions of those things. The mechanics discussions are for the BRCS forum, but the Royal Library is here for exactly the purpose you described. Have at it&#33; ;)

Ultimately, the BR forums will be shaped by the active BR community, of which you and I are a part. We have only to do our part in starting and contributing to those discussions, and if others share those interests, the threads will grow.

Do not despair&#33; Post&#33; :D

-Osprey

[Xeres]

When i read the posted letter above, it becomes a bit clearer now.
i my self am an 2nd edition player for over 5years and have never played 3rd
and then i discoverd Birthright.net and felt great joy untill i took a look in the forum, first i tried to understand what everyone was talking about, there were a lot of strange terms but i did&#39;nt gave up and tried to answere some question other people asked and there it was again these strange terms i thougt it was because i am a newbi on the net or i just did&#39;nt understand the right englisch and then i knew everyone is playing the 3rd edition and some online game(pbem)and 2nd edition was out.
but now i know THE 2ND EDITION IS STILL ALIVE.
thanx
Xeres

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:57 AM





> So the bottom line is that you don`t think that people should be

> discussing the topics that are of the most interest to them.



Huh?!? Quite a leap there. My complaint is that there is nothing else

going on (or that it seems to be no more than 5%) here. There is a

difference. Discuss it all you want. But, I am quite sure that there are

other things too talk about too. This is what I mean by "crowding".



Discuss the BRCS all you want, but lets talk about something else too. Lets

discuss the Atlas in the open (unlike the updated BR rules) because every DM

has detailed at least a half dozen realms to some extent. We could all send

submissions to a cave and get back an Atlas in six months, or we could

discuss our creations here. What we send off might be long, detailed

documents, but surely we can post summaries and essential points here. It

may very well be that ideas discussed here will improve the longer document

submitted for an Atlas. References to length are based on the fact that I

don`t know whether the new Atlas will look more like the various regional

books or like a compendium of PS`.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Eosin the Red]

Kenneth wrote:

> Discuss the BRCS all you want, but lets talk about something else too.

Lets discuss the Atlas in the open (unlike the updated BR rules) because

every DM has detailed at least a half dozen realms to some extent. We could

all send submissions to a cave and get back an Atlas in six months, or we

could discuss our creations here. What we send off might be long, detailed

documents, but surely we can post summaries and essential points here. It

may very well be that ideas discussed here will improve the longer document

submitted for an Atlas.





Here is a webpage I started for Mhoried in a PbeM game - it is too long to

post here but comments are welcome. Bits that you find interesting can be

posted/pasted for discussion.



http://www.mabinogin.com/NightofFire/Mhorsheet.htm



Randy ~ Eosin

[Kyrion]

And here`s my Taeghas page:



http://www.gamersnook.com/br/



I made one or two gaffes on province descriptions (directions switched,

that sort of thing), but I gave it some serious effort.



At 04:15 PM 9/16/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:

> > Discuss the BRCS all you want, but lets talk about something else too.

>Lets discuss the Atlas in the open (unlike the updated BR rules) because

>every DM has detailed at least a half dozen realms to some extent. We could

>all send submissions to a cave and get back an Atlas in six months, or we

>could discuss our creations here. What we send off might be long, detailed

>documents, but surely we can post summaries and essential points here. It

>may very well be that ideas discussed here will improve the longer document

>submitted for an Atlas.

>

>

>Here is a webpage I started for Mhoried in a PbeM game - it is too long to

>post here but comments are welcome. Bits that you find interesting can be

>posted/pasted for discussion.

>

>http://www.mabinogin.com/NightofFire/Mhorsheet.htm

>

>Randy ~ Eosin

>

>

>

>

>

>

>---

>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus Scanner]

[Prospero]

Originally posted by kgauck@Sep 16 2003, 07:09 PM
----- Original Message -----

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 4:57 AM





> So the bottom line is that you don`t think that people should be

> discussing the topics that are of the most interest to them.



Huh?&#33;? Quite a leap there. My complaint is that there is nothing else

going on (or that it seems to be no more than 5%) here. There is a

difference. Discuss it all you want. But, I am quite sure that there are

other things too talk about too. This is what I mean by "crowding".



Discuss the BRCS all you want, but lets talk about something else too.
I believe irdeggman&#39;s gist here was that people are talking about what they want to talk about. Now, your interests may lie in a different direction, which is fine . . . but don&#39;t try to make everyone just talk about what you want to talk about.

If you want to talk about Aduria, Djapar, the Gorgon&#39;s mother, or whatever, then do it, and see if anyone wants to join you. If someone else starts an interesting discussion, join them. Don&#39;t just say, "You guys are talking about things I am not interested in, so stop. Talk about what I want to talk about."

[kgauck]

Eosin the Red wrote:



> Here is a webpage I started for Mhoried in a PbeM game -

>

> http://www.mabinogin.com/NightofFire/Mhorsheet.htm



And Scott M. Baron wrote:





> And here`s my Taeghas page:

>

> http://www.gamersnook.com/br/



Both of which are pretty neat and very nicely done. Both are just beyond

the area`s I have developed in my own campaign, so I may borrow some ideas

if events take me a little south.



In Eosin`s Mhoried page, I particularly liked the rules page for what it

said about the people living there. A few Wheel of Time classes, I`ll need

to check up on, but I keep hearing that WoT is a setting very useflu for BR,

so I need to pick it up. I was interested by the various regional feats

within Mhoried itself, but it all looks very well thought out. I was

impressed by the motivation of the Mhor himself, he was desperately in need

of some further explanation. I hope the province pages are still to be

developed, they look promising.



Scott`s page includes more than just the Taeghas PS, but that is certainly

the meat and potatoes of the page. Both include maps of interesting

features, but I was struck by the placement of temples of Neserie. I

generally think of them as being in town, where the fishermen - and

cemetaries- are. What led you to the interpreation of the sea godess as a

nature figure? The county by county description is very nice, but I was

especially intrigued by the "places of note".



Overall, I think I will have to write a PS of Stjordvik and Talinie once my

campaign is wrapped up (the light at the end of the tunnel is visible). It

will be interesting to undertake such a project post-campaign, rather than

prior. My own site is

http://home.mchsi.com/~kgauck/taelshore/ and I took a character based

approach, describing the realm through its leaders, rather than a

geographical approach. My site is not a well laid out as either Scott`s or

Eosin`s. I expect most people have seen it, but here it is if you have not.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[kgauck]

As one might expect there are plenty of posters who would rather leave well

enought alone. Prospero being only the most recent. I rather think its in

the interests of the whole community if we are occasionally encouraged to

pull back from our obsession on mechanics from time to time. Never have I

advocated ending or reducing the discussion of the BRCS (I participate too

much in it), I have only urged that we do more as well. Appologies to those

who have read some variation of this reply thrice.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by kgauck@Sep 17 2003, 04:39 AM
Discuss the BRCS all you want, but lets talk about something else too. Lets discuss the Atlas in the open (unlike the updated BR rules) because every DM has detailed at least a half dozen realms to some extent. We could all send submissions to a cave and get back an Atlas in six months, or we could discuss our creations here. What we send off might be long, detailed documents, but surely we can post summaries and essential points here. It may very well be that ideas discussed here will improve the longer document submitted for an Atlas. References to length are based on the fact that I don`t know whether the new Atlas will look more like the various regional books or like a compendium of PS`.

I&#39;m not opposed to open discussion about the Atlas. In fact, I&#39;d encourage it. As you might have noticed, I&#39;ve been posting info on how people can help out, by writing material to fill in sections of the Atlas that still have to be done.

In answer to your last question, I can give you a brief rundown on size and page numbers. The realms are going to be roughly 4-8 pages long each (the major realms get longer descriptions) and the organisations (temples, guilds, wizards, etc) will be roughly 1/4-1 page in size, although a couple of the major ones are a little longer. After that there is a section on history, an one the culture of each region/race. No estimate on the sizes of those sections, and then some additional rules material (including prestige classes).

Note: Pages are formatted in 9pt font with two columns.

Just to let you know, the following Anuirean realms don&#39;t have anyone currently working on them Dhoesone, Elinie, Tuornen, Medoere, Taeghas, Coeranys, and Broesengae, although I have had an expression of interest in Coeranys. The rest either have a completed draft or are being worked on. If anyone outthere has done a lot of work on one of these realms and wants to include it in the Atlas, let me know at dmdarkstar@yahoo.com and we can discuss it.

Also, if there is anything you would like to see included in the Atlas, let me know (either here or by e-mail) and I will consider your proposal.

[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2003-09-16 at 17:45, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Fearless_Leader" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 10:24 PM

>

> > Maybe you aren`t alone, but don`t pretend to speak for the rest of us.

>

> Didn`t do that. Claimed I represented at most a dozen people (mostly

> because its a nice round number).

>

> > With the release of the BRCS and its subsequent discussions, I`ve seen

> > more people than ever before register with the forums... the BR

> > community has literally expanded by a factor of 10. When the

> > community was only contained to a few hardcore players on the mailing

> > list, there were less than 300 people, now there are thousands.... I see

> > this only as a good thing. The fine tuning of the rules will only produce

> a

> > better product that will attract more players.



If the thousands were all posting, you MIGHT have had a point. However,

I think you make KGauck`s for him instead.



"Better" product? - let`s give it the benefit of the doubt and call it a

*new* product, and in the tradition of gold old American marketing of

course *new* means *improved* (regardless of facts).



However, to each his own. If 3e appeals to some then let them play, but

those that wish to play BR without 3e have been crowded out. Personally,

and I do know many that agree with me, 3e sucks - but I also recognize

that there are those who like it and their opinion is equally valid.



>

> I think the way we count members has changed. Lists only count people who

> subscribe to get mail. Web sites that require regestration for some

> purposes will tend to accumulate registrations that lapse. I don`t believe

> that the community has grown. I rather suspect its shrinking. I was

> willing to believe that a comprehensive CS would attract players a year ago.

> I no longer believe that, and to see its discussion so dominate the forums,

> crowding out anything else, seems counter productive.

>



A comprehensive CS was ALWAYS going to lose some, especially those who

were essentially satisfied to start with.



OTOH, joining the mainstream 3e band was going to expose BR to a greater

audience - but also an audience with greater choices who are therefore

more likely to be less adhesive in their loyalties. This itself leads to

a revolving door of new ideas.





> Kenneth Gauck

> kgauck@mchsi.com

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by kgauck@Sep 16 2003, 02:09 PM
> So the bottom line is that you don`t think that people should be

> discussing the topics that are of the most interest to them.



Huh?&#33;? Quite a leap there. My complaint is that there is nothing else

going on (or that it seems to be no more than 5%) here. There is a

difference. Discuss it all you want. But, I am quite sure that there are

other things too talk about too. This is what I mean by "crowding".



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com


Oops, you are absolutely right Kenneth. I apologize for the "edgy" comment. All you were doing was stating an opinion on how wish there was somethings that interested you to discuss.