Elves and Forests/Sources.

[geeman]

At 07:26 PM 8/27/2003 -0400, Ryan Caveney wrote:



>I`ve advanced a theory: elves physically cannot, rather than merely prefer

>not to, live anywhere the source potential of the province drops too

>low. Burn down the forest and build cities and plant crops, and the elves

>must move or sicken and die of magical malnutrition -- or kill you and regrow

>the forest.



At the very least I think their ability to increase population level

without decreasing source potential should apply to provinces with

primarily forested terrain only rather than any province they control. In

keeping with that same logic, I think it would be a good idea to

incorporate several tweaks to elven domains. Things like their maximum

population level is equal to the source potential of the province rather

than the maximum level of Table 27 in the Rulebook. The difficulty of

raising their population level using the Rule action should be greater than

that of human (or other non-elven) races.



Gary

[Mark_Aurel]

In
keeping with that same logic, I think it would be a good idea to
incorporate several tweaks to elven domains.

Some things I've used in the past, and which we discussed briefly on the d20 team a long time ago is using planar traits on Elven and awnshegh provinces; things like:

- Elven provinces enhance Enchantment magic (effective spell level is heightened by 2, duration is extended);
- Elven provinces have erratic time (using the table provided in the current DMG should be satisfactory; things shouldn't get _too_ out of whack in BR, since the game relies a lot on time [domain-wise]);
- Awnshegh provinces could be aligned with their rulers, rendering them a bit more dangerous and treacherous in general.

There are some other examples as well, but I think that planar traits from the Manual of the Planes/3.5 DMG could port pretty directly to putting a more magical flavor and feel for various areas in Cerilia in a concrete mechanical way.

Perhaps not quite what the topic was about, but close enough, I suppose.

[geeman]

At 02:25 AM 8/28/2003 +0200, Mark_Aurel wrote:



> Some things I`ve used in the past, and which we discussed briefly on the

> d20 team a long time ago is using planar traits on Elven and awnshegh

> provinces; things like:

>

> - Elven provinces enhance Enchantment magic (effective spell level is

> heightened by 2, duration is extended);



I`ve given this kind of bonus to a source holder casting spells in the

province where he has a holding. Effective spellcaster level = spellcaster

level + source holding level. It seems to work pretty well and fits into

the campaign theme of what a source is. I`ve noted several times in the

past that I`ve had trouble getting players to take on source domains

because they have a real lack of adventure level influences and I play a

primarily adventure level campaign, so I attached a bunch of effects to

source holdings to try to deal with that issue. It didn`t really work all

that well--the players still didn`t much want to take on building up a

source domain from scratch, which is how I generally play things out. It`s

too bad, really, since adventuring to create source holdings is IMO the

easiest of the domain actions to convert into adventure level

play. Nonetheless, it`s a very interesting game mechanic and a lot of fun

to work with. Other folks might have more luck with their players than I did.



I gave wizards a bonus to saving throws while in the provinces in which

they control sources and in turn a penalty to the saves of those affected

by their spells, the animal empathy ability of rangers, and bonuses on

their ability to handle animals and the like. I think there should be

correspondingly better benefits for those mages who control all the

available source levels in a province similar to the way priests got

benefits for their temple domains in the "State and Religion" section of

the BoP.



When it comes to the comparison between elven and human arcane magics, I

like the idea that elves are particularly advantaged in forested provinces

in the same way that I think it makes sense that wizards who control

sources should be advantaged when near to the nexus of their domain level

power, so similar bonuses make sense. A few benefits of the same kind as

those I gave to wizards with source holdings might be the most logical

extension of the logic.



> - Elven provinces have erratic time (using the table provided in the

> current DMG should be satisfactory; things shouldn`t get _too_ out of

> whack in BR, since the game relies a lot on time [domain-wise]);



Which table do you mean?



> - Awnshegh provinces could be aligned with their rulers, rendering them

> a bit more dangerous and treacherous in general.



I`d agree with this with the proviso that in certain cases the shift of a

domain`s alignment to that of it`s ruler (whether awnshegh or not--think

Osoerde, for example) might be part of the overall "conquest" or

consolidation of that domain after a hostile investiture. The shift of the

predominant alignment of the population of Kiergaard, for instance, might

be part of the Gorgon`s overall process of integrating that land into his

domain, and could influence things like the number of revolts,

loyalty/morale of the provinces, etc. We don`t have any rules for this

kind of thing, but it`s an interesting line of speculation.



Gary

[Mark_Aurel]

Which table do you mean?

The one on p. 168 of the 3.5 DMG.


I`d agree with this with the proviso that in certain cases the shift of a
domain`s alignment to that of it`s ruler (whether awnshegh or not-- think
Osoerde, for example) might be part of the overall "conquest" or
consolidation of that domain after a hostile investiture. The shift of the
predominant alignment of the population of Kiergaard, for instance, might
be part of the Gorgon`s overall process of integrating that land into his
domain, and could influence things like the number of revolts,
loyalty/morale of the provinces, etc. We don`t have any rules for this
kind of thing, but it`s an interesting line of speculation.

I was actually referring to the idea that the land itself resonates to its ruler - especially long-term strongly aligned rulers - that the Crown or Ust Athka might be evil-aligned in the same way that a lower plane would. Not just that the population is tainted by its yoke, but that there is an almost palpable evil blight on the land.

[geeman]

At 10:20 AM 8/28/2003 +0200, Mark_Aurel wrote:



>I was actually referring to the idea that the land itself resonates to its

>ruler - especially long-term strongly aligned rulers - that the Crown or

>Ust Athka might be evil-aligned in the same way that a lower plane would.

>Not just that the population is tainted by its yoke, but that there is an

>almost palpable evil blight on the land.



Cosmologically, I usually like to interpret "the Land" as being a larger,

individual kind of thing rather than a particular domain. However, the

process of shifting the prevailing population vs. shifting the population

of the land itself is still an option. One could, in fact, have a process

for each if one felt like articulating the land and it`s residents.



Gary

[geeman]

At 10:20 AM 8/28/2003 +0200, Mark_Aurel wrote:



>The one on p. 168 of the 3.5 DMG.



Ah, OK. When it comes to the passage of time for humans amongst Cerilian

elves it might be easier to use a single table rather than one meant to

represent the shifting of time erratically. The time amongst elves seem to

have more of a Rip Van Winkle effect, so humans lose time while in an elven

kingdom rather than gain any, which is possible on that table. That table

might not be the easiest to work with if one actually spent a weeks or even

months (a couple of domain turns) in elven lands since it`s on a day by day

basis, so the DM would have to roll dozens of times. That would make it

average out over a lengthy stay rather than result in the rather random

effect of losing months or years that would seem more apt for humans in a

Cerilian elven kingdom. Something like this might better reflect the time

shift amongst the sidhe:



d20 Time shift

1-10 No change

11-14 Actual time of visit x2

15-17 Actual time of visit x5

18-19 Actual time of visit x10

20 Actual time of visit x20



Gary

[Osprey]

Something like this might better reflect the time
shift amongst the sidhe:

d20 Time shift
1-10 No change
11-14 Actual time of visit x2
15-17 Actual time of visit x5
18-19 Actual time of visit x10
20 Actual time of visit x20

Gary


Unfortunately, this doesn't allow for much of a true "Rip Van Winkle" effect. One night of fun = 20 years later is more along those lines (and a lot of other faerie tales involving nights spent in the Faerie Realms). Which I think is a really cool element to have existent in Cerilia, even if you generally never want it to happen in-game.

The above table is OK for in-game effects in general, I suppose, as long as it is known that a single night in the Sidhe realms can lead to years passing outside. This leaves an option for DM plot devices and old NPC's popping up.

I recently read Guy Gavriel Kay's The Summer Tree trilogy, and he presented a similar idea of immortal elves, whose forests are so warded that any unguided mortal will be lost in the time-shifting depths of the elven forests, effectively removed from all mortal time. They would thus wander in their own time-space reality until they die. Elves see such creatures as frozen in time. Interesting concepts, thought.

It struck me that if far less subjective time passes inside elven domains, this could also help explain slower level progression of elves. As a rough example: ten years of training inside = 100 years of human training. So an elf that is 1000 years old in human terms might really only have lived 100 subjective years (and then at the unhurried pace of an immortal). Things actually start evening out at that point.

Osprey

[Doyle]

The table given (below) only covers a one way time shift. I seem to

recall that the stories alluded to `a night spent in the elven realm may

be years in the human world, while the passage of a year spent in the

faerie court may be but an evening when they return`. Given the

nightmare that differing timescales is going to be on fair play -

(especially with realm level games, imagine one player getting a realm

getting wind of an imminent attack, then getting several years to

prepare for it), I`d suggest this is a good use of DM fudging. It`s a

little easier for me as the game I`m running at the moment is 99%

adventures. But if I`m going to mess around with the PC`s, I like to

mess them up equally.



Doyle.



-----Original Message-----

From: Gary

At 10:20 AM 8/28/2003 +0200, Mark_Aurel wrote:



>The one on p. 168 of the 3.5 DMG.



Ah, OK. When it comes to the passage of time for humans amongst

Cerilian

elves it might be easier to use a single table rather than one meant to

represent the shifting of time erratically. The time amongst elves seem

to

have more of a Rip Van Winkle effect, so humans lose time while in an

elven

kingdom rather than gain any, which is possible on that table. That

table

might not be the easiest to work with if one actually spent a weeks or

even

months (a couple of domain turns) in elven lands since it`s on a day by

day

basis, so the DM would have to roll dozens of times. That would make it

average out over a lengthy stay rather than result in the rather random

effect of losing months or years that would seem more apt for humans in

a

Cerilian elven kingdom. Something like this might better reflect the

time

shift amongst the sidhe:



d20 Time shift

1-10 No change

11-14 Actual time of visit x2

15-17 Actual time of visit x5

18-19 Actual time of visit x10

20 Actual time of visit x20

[geeman]

At 08:06 PM 8/28/2003 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>Unfortunately, this doesn`t allow for much of a true "Rip Van

>Winkle" effect. One night of fun = 20 years later is more along

>those lines (and a lot of other faerie tales involving nights spent in the

>Faerie Realms). Which I think is a really cool element to have existent

>in Cerilia, even if you generally never want it to happen in-game.



OK, how about this version:



d20 Time Shift

1-10 No change

11-14 Actual time of visit x2

15-17 Actual time of visit x5

18-19 Actual time of visit x10

20 Actual time of visit x20 (and roll again)



That way a guy could spend an evening amongst the Sidhe and a couple 20`s

later he`s an old, old man....



>Also, it struck me that if far less subjective time passes inside elven

>domains, this could also help explain slower level progression of

>elves. As a rough example: ten years of training inside = 100 years of

>human training. So an elf that is 1000 years old in human terms might

>really only have lived 100 subjective years (and then at the unhurried

>pace of an immortal). Things actually start evening out at that point.



That`s an interesting idea. It doesn`t explain much about their "ever

young" appearance, however.



Gary

[Osprey]

>Also, it struck me that if far less subjective time passes inside elven
>domains, this could also help explain slower level progression of
>elves. As a rough example: ten years of training inside = 100 years of
>human training. So an elf that is 1000 years old in human terms might
>really only have lived 100 subjective years (and then at the unhurried
>pace of an immortal). Things actually start evening out at that point.

That`s an interesting idea. It doesn`t explain much about their "ever
young" appearance, however.

Gary


I don't think a fae-like race of magical beings necesarilly needs to explain every last metaphysical bit. The Sidhelien are immortal, with a faerie nature - staying forever young fits in well with this concept.

However, Ryan Caveney's idea that elven vitality depends upon the strength of their forests' mebhaigal sources is a neat explanation for their eternal health, and one that meshes well with the idea of slower subjective time within the same territorial boundaries.

The 2nd bit I would propose is that not all elves are young - that is merely the typical elf, and the default. I think most elves could choose an age which suits them best. I could imagine some elders preferring to let themselves age to a point that seemed aesthetically appropriate to their self-concept/self-image. Also, using Ryan's idea, some could look older due to misfortune (like spending too long outside the elven realms). Whether or not they could regain their "youth" is a seperate issue.

I think the idea of having some elven deviants is a good one.

I would also imagine that darker elves like Rhuobhe would have a hard time keeping the classic Sidhelien advantages, particularly the elves&#39; abilities to build civilization without reducing the sources. Is Rhuobhe really still living in harmony with nature, according to the traditional elven ways? Eh, just a pet peeve concerning the original setup of Rhuobhe&#39;s domain. <_<

Osprey

[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, Osprey wrote:



> I would also imagine that darker elves like Rhuobhe would have a hard

> time keeping the classic Sidhelien advantages, particularly the elves`

> abilities to build civilization without reducing the sources. Is

> Rhuobhe really still living in harmony with nature, according to the

> traditional elven ways?



I think that over time, the Manslayer has come to live in harmony with the

nature *of the Shadow World* -- I think his domain there is vastly larger

and more powerful, with his domain on the "light" side of the evanescence

just an afterthought, kept around mostly for sentimental value and by

inertia. If Rhoubhe ever does conquer his human neighbors, I think it

will look a lot like Tuar Annwn`s expansion into the Gnoll Fells.





Ryan Caveney

[Osprey]

Speaking of time flowing differently in elven realms, I wanted to post an idea I&#39;ve been working on. I&#39;ll repost this in the Royal Library under the elven source/realm thread where this discussion began.

Time flows more slowly in the elven realms, often seeming timeless altogether. The elves are reflections of their environment, and hence they are a seemingly timeless people as well. These magical realms resist the dramatic changes that nature wreaks on the outside world - one of the reasons the elven forests are virtually unchanged from their ancient forms.

There are several things that can affect this flow of time. One is the mere presence of mortals, whose own hurried sense of time, and the imprint on the mebhaighal that this creates, sends ripples through the fabric of the elven realms. This effect is very small when a lone, mundane human simply wanders into the forest, but it is dramatically amplified when a person of power enters. Scions and spellcasters, and anyone who tends to mold reality around them (such as a high-level character), create much more dramatic ripples in this fabric, sometimes felt as tremors or &#39;spikes&#39; in the normal flows of the local mebhaighal.

Although the effect may be small when a lone mortal enters the bounds of the elven wood, this effect is dramatically magnified when groups of mortals enter together, or worst of all, when entire armies march into an elven realm. The effects are all too well known in the elven history of Cerilia...few indeed are the surviving elven realms where once they were freely spread throughout the continent.

Finally, there is one other way in which time flows are altered in the Sidhe&#39;s domain. The regent of an elven realm has the power and authority to alter that flow as need dictates, although they tend to do so only when necessary as it disrupts the natural harmony of a Sidhe realm. Skilled regents, especially elven wizards (and most ruling elven regents ARE wizards) who have a familiar comfort with weaving and shaping the flows of mebhaighal, often shape these flows around very limited areas to allow mortals to enter a realm without their presence disruting the general peace. This is the case in places such as Tuarheivel, where the trade road has a continous barrier surrounding it, as does the trading post at the end of that road.

The other instance in which time may be altered is when the domain is threatened. When mortals threaten to invade or damage the realm, it is necessary to react with equal alacrity. Thus, on a domain level of play, an elven regent typically would improve or change the realm very little (if at all), yet can move troops, contest invasive holdings, spend RP to block invasive attempts at creating holdings as necessary, and/or cast realm spells as necessary to protect the realm from mortal incursion. I imagine that an elven regent might take 1 domain action per year (or even less frequently&#33;) if the realm is left undisturbed, but could move at "normal" mortal speed if the need were great (1 action per month + court actions, if any).

-Osprey