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Raesene Andu
08-11-2003, 07:16 AM
Did we ever decide on a final table for the population/level for the domain rules? I ask because I'm about to work out the populations of every nation in Anuire for the Atlas, and wanted to make sure it fits with the rulebook before I do it.

Personally, I'm in favour of the following....

POPULATION CHART

0-----0
1-----2000
2-----8000
3-----18000
4-----32000
5-----50000
6-----72000
7-----98000
8-----128000
9-----162000
10----200000

That is roughly double the original and would fit in well with the size of the major cities (Ilien, 70000, Ilien province 98000+; Endier 50,000, Endier
province 72,000+) and raise the population of Anuire to a slightly more reasonable level (roughly 3.1 million people as compared to 1.5 million under the current chart, not including Awnsheghlien and goblin realms).

If you want to use this system then great, but if not then can you let me know soon, before I start editing everything.

Mark_Aurel
08-11-2003, 05:33 PM
Well, this has been the subject of debate before - for various reasons, I'm in favor of increasing the population level overall as well, as much of what is in the setting books doesn't quite make sense demographically.

As far as I can tell, the table you have there is based on 2(x2); the formula I currently have in the revision is 2 x the sum of all province levels (1, 3, 6, 10, etc). This increases population in lower-level provinces somewhat, without similarly affecting higher-level provinces relatively equally as much.

I'd suggest you post this in the Atlas boards and get an opinion there as well. I wouldn't mind using the table you suggest at all (it doesn't have much rules impact anyway, but it does have story impact), but it's good to know your back is being covered. The population levels suggested by the Rulebook puts Anuire at less than the population density of medieval Scandinavia (medieval Norway was about half the size of Anuire, with a population of about 1-1.5 million). The cities and armies of Cerilia are also unusually large if the current demographic numbers are used as a basis, whilst an "empire" of 3 million citizens doesn't seem very impressive at all.

http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm - this is an excellent resource for a quick overview of some pertinent issues.

If no one here or on the Atlas team has any strong objections, I see nothing wrong with using your numbers.

Mark_Aurel
08-11-2003, 05:39 PM
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?...&threadid=72206 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72206)

That thread also has some interesting discussion on demographics in general (though, in a way, in the opposite direction of Cerilia's), if that holds any interest for you.

Raesene Andu
08-12-2003, 01:30 AM
My table is based on this rough formula.
0 = 0
1 = 1 x 2000 = 2000
2 = 2 x 4000 = 8000
3 = 3 x 6000 = 18000

Either way is good, but I agree with you in that Anuire (and indeed all of Cerilia) needs a population boost.

Should also point out that under the system I have for working out population, the MINIMUM population for Anuire is 3.15 million. So for a realm like Roesone, the population can be anything from 130,000 to 228,000 and for Ghoere (the most population nation in Anuire) the population range will be 344,000 to 524,000 which is a significant increase over the old 128,000 - 207,000 range.

Now assuming that Ghoere is 6,600 square miles in size (worked out very roughly at 60 miles wide, 110 miles long), and assuming an average population of 434,000 people, then that comes in at roughly 65 people per square mile, which if you compare to real world demographics (I have that page you suggested bookmarked by the way) is still a little low. However, Ghoere may not be quite that large and it does have a few hills, a swamp and the threat from the Spiderfell to keep people away.

Looking at the armies vs. population, a kingdom's standing army should be less than 2% of the population. Now assuming 200 men per unit and a population of 434,000, then Ghoere has a standing army of 3,600 men (plus 2000 mercenaries if needed) or 0.83 of the population. If you add the mercenaires then it comes to 1.3% of the population which is about spot on for the medieval/early renaissence type culture IMO.

The maximum sized army a kingdom could raise (assuming a major war to fight off the Gorgon or something like that) should be around 10-15% of the total population, so around 43-65,000 soldiers for Ghoere. Of course, paying for that many troops is going to be difficult without good finances. A pet guilder and lots of trade routes AND a pet temple with good tithes AND a lot of levies would be needed to get even close to muster that many troops. However, when working out the troop numbers for some of the wilder lands, I've assumed that the cost of maintaining these troops is minimul or non-existant, especially with goblins and other monster regions, so realm like the Spiderfell (which as a population of 13,750 goblins + innummerable spiders) can support at least 10 units of goblins (15% of the population) all of the time, which would help explain why the Spider has kept control of the forest for so long when surrounded by enemies. In fact, I've given him a total of 20 units (10 goblin, 10 giant spider) that can be maintain free of charge when inside his land. As they don't trade for goods for weapons etc, and all the goblins and spiders in the forest are his loyal followers they don't need money, just food etc which can be supplied by the rest of the population, then his units don't need maintenance. Of course, once outside the Spiderfell there is a maintenance cost, but is generally pillaged from the occupied lands.

Anyway I'm getting a bit off topic here. The question to everyone is, should we use this table? If yes, then I'll get to work of some demographics stuff I have planned. If no, then please explain why and what you would like to see instead.

Raesene Andu
08-12-2003, 02:25 AM
Oh and if you use the system on this page http://www.rpglibrary.org/utils/meddemog/ for Ghoere, assuming 17094 square km (conversion is square miles x 2.59) and use Abundant Arable Land (40 people /square km) you get a total population for Ghoere of 683,760 people.

But, if you fix the population number so that you get Ghoere's population to around 434,000 (the average I worked out above) then can use the rest of the page to calculate that Ghore has a livestock population of near 1 million (actually 650,000 fowl such as chickens and geese & 300,000 livestock like cattle and sheep). There would be approximately 9000 intinerent workers, 386,000 villagers (in 859 villages), 26,038 townsfolk (in 6 large towns), and 13,019 cityfolk (in 2 cities, although I think Bhalaene is the only real city in Ghoere IMO). The page also suggest that there would be 11 castles in Ghoere, although I think for BR this would include fortifications of all types, so not all would be in the hands of Gavin Tael.

Some interesting info I think, useful if you want to set down a bit more about a kingdom.

Ariadne
08-12-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Raesene Andu@Aug 11 2003, 08:16 AM
POPULATION CHART

0-----0
1-----2000
2-----8000
3-----18000
4-----32000
5-----50000
6-----72000
7-----98000
8-----128000
9-----162000
10----200000

I think, this population chart fits very good into the setting and it is somehow straight (the old one seems to be nearly totaly random)...

Fearless_Leader
08-12-2003, 10:29 PM
I agree that this new table is a vast improvement over the one in the 2nd Edition rulebook.

Raesene Andu
08-13-2003, 08:40 AM
OK, if everyone is agreed, then we can move on. Below is a list of average populations for every realm in Anuire and Khinasi.
(Note: These are average only, can be higher or lower than this).


ANUIRE

Aerenwe...........227,000
Alamie..............185,000
Avanil...............417,000
Baruk-Azhik......193,000
Boeruine...........405,000
Brosengae........123,000
Cariele..............147,000
Chimaeron........59,000
Coeranys..........171,000
Dhoesone.........156,000
Diemed.............245,000
Elinie.................175,000
Endier................85,000
Five Peaks.........175,000
Ghoere...............434,000
Gorgonís Crown..233,000
Ilien....................113,000
Imperial City.......135,000
Markazor............175,000
Medoere.............79,000
Mhoried..............290,000
Mieres................173,000
Mur-Kilad............86,000
Osoerde............156,000
Rhuobhe............13,000
Roesone............179,000
Sielwode............253,000
Spiderfell............13,000
Taeghas.............216,000
Talinie................155,000
Thurazor...........158,000
Tuornen............200,000
Tuarhievel.........215,000

TOTAL...............6,039,000


KHINASI

Aftane...............248,000
Ariya..................179,000
Basilisk...............10,000
Binsada..............187,000
Black Spear Tribes..109,000
Direwood............18,000
Djafra..................342,000
Ghamoura...........147,000
Innishiere............108,000
Iron Hand Tribes..176,000
Khourane.............215,000
Kozlovnyy............194,000
Lamia...................99,000
Magian................127,000
Mairada...............123,000
Maze of Maalvar...17,000
Merasaf................182,000
Mesire..................86,000
Min Dhousai.........219,000
Mour el-Sirad.......26,000
Rhuannach..........81,000
Sendoure............151,000
Serpentís Isle......89,000
Sphinx.................152,000
Suiriene...............155,000
Tarvan Waste......32,000
Zikala...................203,000

TOTAL..................3,675,000

Note: The Imperial City is a special case because it is not actually a province, but a city. I have sort of assumed that when a province changes over to 10/0 province then it becomes both a city and a province. So say Ilien changed to a 10/0 then you would get two provinces, one a 10/0 city and the other a 6/0 or 7/0 province, just as in Avanil you have a 7/0 province called Anuire and then you have the Imperial City itself.

Any thoughts on this idea?

Mark_Aurel
08-13-2003, 11:19 AM
I already wrote in some "urban province" rules in the BRCS playtest, though they aren't yet at the level I'd like them to be.

Basically, urban provinces are supposed to follow the following special case rules:
1. They must maintain a trade route at all times, or they will starve. Some rules about granaries and food reserves seems appropriate here as well. Possibly special rules for sieges and storming cities as well.
2. They are considered a separate province from the surrounding one for purposes of population-based effects, but a part of the same province for area-based effects - plague vs earthquake, for instance.
3. They don't have sources.


Apart from that, they're considered similar to regular provinces. I think it would be very appropriate if some cities elsewhere changed to the same status - most noticeably the "city-states of the sun," like Ariya and the others - it'd make those cities seem more special, and make the system more consistent.

I also wouldn't mind if the Imperial City's population got upped a bit more to reflect its level better - even well into the middle ages, Constantinople remained a huge city.

For that matter, 6 million is a much better population count - puts Anuire on roughly half of France's medieval level (or less than half), which is about right, IMO.

Count Demeter
08-13-2003, 04:31 PM
:huh:

Is that mean that I must rewrite the population entry in my realm outlines that I've done so far?

Fearless_Leader
08-13-2003, 07:19 PM
I agree that creating some city provinces in the Khinasi regions is a good idea... particularly for the cities of Ariya and Djafra (and perhaps Aftane). In Brechtur, the same rules could also be applied to Brechlen. However, I do wonder if adding more city provinces to the setting will be changing its dynamics too much.

I also agree that in altering the City of Anuire's population, we should err on the side increasing it further.

Raesene Andu
08-14-2003, 07:33 AM
I originally had the population of the Imperial City a fair bit higher, but reduced it because I thought time period.

What do you think is a good population then? Anyone have a suggestion, or shall I set it at around 200,000.

Fearless_Leader
08-14-2003, 05:01 PM
I think 170 thousand would be good. There's no real reason why... it just seems good.

Raesene Andu
01-16-2005, 09:49 PM
This is the discussion originally held about the population level of provinces. As this has come up while discussing Aerenwe, I thought it a good idea to post it here for you all to read.