Going against the group. [Archive]

Birthright-L

06-21-2003, 06:30 AM

My first ever Wizard Character from nearly 20 years ago (who I still manage
to play very rarely when my old friend wants to play) totally
destroyed/enslaved his entire party when they tried to take away his shiny
new magic item. But I did that in one fell swoop immediately when they
tried to take it away from me. Dalor Darden has been pretty much a loner
ever since.

Tony

P.S. what poll?

----Original Message Follows----
From: NinjaCorps <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

NinjaCorps wrote:
I currently play a character that does not always go with the ideas of the
whole group. My character has been threatened by the other members of the
group, and I am now in the act of killing most of the group so that I may
protect myself from them.

I am lucky that my DM cares more about the game than the feelings of the
players. He knows much of what I plan to do, and has been told enough to
figure out the rest. It is good to have a DM that will not thwart my plans
just becuase I happen to be going against the group.

Have any of you ever gone against the group in such a harsh way?

Also remember to complete the poll attached to this thread.

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NinjaCorps

06-21-2003, 11:16 AM

As you are sure to know, I am new to this site. However I am not all that new to the world of BR.

I love the BR world and find it goes well with my gaming talents. I mostly love that I may do more than just what my lone character is able to do. I find the world a great challenge and enjoy it for its challenging nature.

My character is "Ninja" and is therefor a bit more against the group.(I say ninja with quotaion marks becaue he is not a ninja by D&D standards, but only by his own.) My character would not be so against the group if they were not such easy targets, did not threaten me, and we on my side, but they are not. Instead I have been threatened by one of them inparticular, and I now plot his death.(His death will take place today.) Another PC I will be killng today is not so much becuase his character goes against mine, but more becuase once he finds out that my character has killed the other member he will be against me.(If that makes sense.)

I am excited at the prospect of killing an enemy though, even if it is a good friend of mine. I hope it does not cause any problems in the group, it is not personal. With any luck I will be able to kill them in their sleep and make it seem as though I did not do it.(Even the players will not know what has happened. That is, if I am able to pull it off the way I want to.)

I am glad we are in a dungeon so their people will not see me kill them. I could probibly kill them in their own beds anyway, but this is easier.

I love ninjas, stealth is an amazing tool. With it I am unseen, unknown, and unkillable.

Lawgiver

06-21-2003, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by Birthright-L
Tony

P.S. what poll?

Join the real posters on the actual message boards instead of the mailing list and find out. ;)

Lawgiver

06-21-2003, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by NinjaCorps
My character is "Ninja" and is therefor a bit more against the group.(I say ninja with quotaion marks becaue he is not a ninja by D&D standards, but only by his own.) My character would not be so against the group if they were not such easy targets, did not threaten me, and we on my side, but they are not. Instead I have been threatened by one of them inparticular, and I now plot his death.(His death will take place today.) Another PC I will be killng today is not so much becuase his character goes against mine, but more becuase once he finds out that my character has killed the other member he will be against me.(If that makes sense.)

I am excited at the prospect of killing an enemy though, even if it is a good friend of mine. I hope it does not cause any problems in the group, it is not personal. With any luck I will be able to kill them in their sleep and make it seem as though I did not do it.(Even the players will not know what has happened. That is, if I am able to pull it off the way I want to.)

1. Why in the world do you feel you have to assasinate the entire party?
2. You don't seem understand the concept of group play
3. You and your DM don't have a clue about the honor of ninja's
4. Assasinating player characters in their sleep may be legitimate strictly by the rules, but it is hardly "fair" in game terms. How would you respond if the roles were reversed? Would it be different if your PC were high level and a character you invested countless hours in. Dying your sleep is a pretty lame way to go.

Originally posted by NinjaCorps
I love ninjas, stealth is an amazing tool. With it I am unseen, unknown, and unkillable.

No offense but your DM must be a wuss. "The best" are always challenged by aspiring equals. Additionally, from the little you've described you'd have a bounty on your head high enough to be fighting off hunters for months. You'd be hard pressed to survive in my world.

Birthright-L

06-21-2003, 07:56 PM

LOL....well, I barely have time to keep up with my mailing lists, so I can`t
spare the time to be actually browsing all the different webpages they are
connected to. I usually go through about 400 or more emails a day. ;-)

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: Lawgiver <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Lawgiver wrote:

Originally posted by Birthright-L
Tony

P.S. what poll?

Join the real posters on the actual message boards instead of the mailing
list and find out. ;)

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NinjaCorps

06-21-2003, 10:10 PM

Perhaps you do not understand what a ninja is. A ninja is an assassain that is hated by most other people due to their skills in stealth. Just like you they think that ninjas are unhonorable people becuase they do not fight face to face. It is not that they are dishonorable or that they are wusses. A ninja is smart enough to know a great weakness of an enemy and exploit it.

You and the creators of D&D seem to have a problem with anything other than face to face attacks. That is why sneak attack is so weak, becuase of wusses that think they should be given as much chance to defend themselves as posible.

You and the creators of D&D need to learn something about anatomy.

Note: I must assassainate two members of the group becuase they are planing to kill me. One of them has told me he is, and the other is too much of a follower to do anything else.(I said all of this in my last post, I guess you did not read that part.)

NinjaCorps

06-21-2003, 10:15 PM

Also, your world must be full of impaths or something. I am in a dungeon with them right now. There are only the two I wish to kill, and one of my vassles in the dungeon with me. Unless the people are able to read my thoughts they will not know anything.

You might want to learn something about deception too.

Eosin the Red

06-21-2003, 10:48 PM

I wonder why they would be trying to do you in?

Eosin
>
> From: NinjaCorps <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
> Date: 2003/06/21 Sat PM 06:10:45 EDT
> To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Subject: Re: Going against the group. [10#1748]
>
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1748
>
> NinjaCorps wrote:
> Perhaps you do not understand what a ninja is. A ninja is an assassain that is hated by most other people due to their skills in stealth. Just like you they think that ninjas are unhonorable people becuase they do not fight face to face. It is not that they are dishonorable or that they are wusses. A ninja is smart enough to know a great weakness of an enemy and exploit it.
>
> You and the creators of D&D seem to have a problem with anything other than face to face attacks. That is why sneak attack is so weak, becuase of wusses that think they should be given as much chance to defend themselves as posible.
>
> You and the creators of D&D need to learn something about anatomy.
>
> Note: I must assassainate two members of the group becuase they are planing to kill me. One of them has told me he is, and the other is too much of a follower to do anything else.(I said all of this in my last post, I guess you did not read that part.)
>
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NinjaCorps

06-21-2003, 11:06 PM

Yes, I am a ninja so they should be carefull around me, but the player tring to kill me did not know I was a ninja when he first decided to be against me.

Also, it is funny that he has said that he would but has not. This is strange becuase he is one of those PC's that is based on the story form of a chilvares knight. You would think that he would have fought me once he said he was to kill me, but he did not.

He reason for not killing me now is that he thinks we will need the whole group to survive this dungeon. Another things that is strange is that he says we will need everyone to survive, but our Cleric has been brought to the point right before death. The character I plan to kill knows that the Cleric must rest for 3 days, but he insists on pressing on.

He is also doing a few more unhonorable things, but they are hidden from all but me.

Doyle

06-22-2003, 12:07 AM

Actually, I think it was your GM, not your character class that is being
alluded to as a wuss - mostly for allowing the situation to remain as it
is. I wonder a little about him (or her) as in your post just prior to
going into the game, you were praising the GM for allowing you to do
what you wanted and then in the one after the game, the GM is evil for
not letting you do as you wanted.

On other bits mentioned in the last few posts (shudder): any good
fighter knows the weakness of his enemy, and when the opportunity will
use flanking, surprise attacks, etc. and this is reflected in D&D by
bonuses to hit and damage. I don`t think we need lessons in anatomy,
but you might want to research armour in a quasi medieval period
(assuming that this is the timescale you GM is using).

IMC I do actually allow martial artists. They are very rare so as not
to disrupt the general flavour of Birthright, and though there may be
more than 60 throughout the whole of Cerilia and Aduria, they would
never be formed as a war unit because open field fighting is not what
that sort of skill is designed for.

It would be interesting to hear your GM or the other players give their
side to this.

Doyle

-----Original Message-----

NinjaCorps wrote:
Perhaps you do not understand what a ninja is. A ninja is an assassain
that is hated by most other people due to their skills in stealth. Just
like you they think that ninjas are unhonorable people becuase they do
not fight face to face. It is not that they are dishonorable or that
they are wusses. A ninja is smart enough to know a great weakness of an
enemy and exploit it.

You and the creators of D&D seem to have a problem with anything other
than face to face attacks. That is why sneak attack is so weak, becuase
of wusses that think they should be given as much chance to defend
themselves as posible.

You and the creators of D&D need to learn something about anatomy.

Note: I must assassainate two members of the group becuase they are
planing to kill me. One of them has told me he is, and the other is too
much of a follower to do anything else.(I said all of this in my last
post, I guess you did not read that part.)

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Doyle

06-22-2003, 12:07 AM

And just a little note on this: The ninja class uses fear itself as a
weapon itself, fear causes hate - not their skills in stealth, otherwise
elves and rangers (or worse, an elfin ranger) would be just as feared.
Honour is more often why someone is killed, rather than how. The face
to face `call them out to honourable combat` is left for the tourney
field and paladins, every one else fights with the primary intention of
surviving at the end of the fight.

Doyle

-----Original Message-----

Perhaps you do not understand what a ninja is. A ninja is an assassain
that is hated by most other people due to their skills in stealth. Just
like you they think that ninjas are unhonorable people becuase they do
not fight face to face. <snip>

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kgauck

06-22-2003, 12:07 AM

Permit me to regard with some suspicion the wisdom of someone who comes into
the BR forums and begins casting aspersions on the competence and
understanding of long time forum members.

I too will offer a bit of free advice. While you may go against the group
in your play sessions, you would be wise to regard yourself as a member of
the BR community and treat other members as fellows and companions.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Eosin the Red

06-22-2003, 12:36 AM

> I too will offer a bit of free advice. While you may go against the group in your play sessions, you would be wise to regard yourself as a member of the BR community and treat other members as fellows and companions.

A hard learned lesson - taught way to often around here :)

Eosin

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Birthright-L

06-22-2003, 01:59 AM

> I am excited at the prospect of killing an enemy though, even if it is a good friend of mine. I hope it does not cause any problems in the group, it is not personal. With any luck I will be able to kill them in their sleep and make it seem as though I did not do it.(Even the players will not know what has happened. That is, if I am able to pull it off the way I want to.)

Not personal for who..the PC character you are killing (who I`m sure would
take it quite personally), or the player who spent time developing and
running the character you are about to off? I`ve played in numerous games
over a long period of time, and I`ve never met a) a player who wouldn`t
take PKilling personally, or B) a player who would make such a blatant
attempt at disrupting the game and the enjoyment of the other players be
kept in the group in question. Of course, different strokes for different
folks, but I`ve seen people ousted from groups they`ve been in a long time
for less...

Sean

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DanMcSorley

06-22-2003, 02:35 AM

On Sat, 21 Jun 2003, Eosin the Red wrote:
> I wonder why they would be trying to do you in?

This has got to be a joke. This guy is the stereotype of every horror
story I`ve ever heard about immature players who want to play ninjas in
every game. "We`re going to be playing Twilight:2000" "Can I be a
ninja?" "We`re going to be playing Werewolf" "I`m a ninja-werewolf!"

In summary, just ignore him and he`ll go away.
--
Daniel McSorley

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Mark_Aurel

06-23-2003, 09:11 PM

You should be kicked by the group simply for liking ninjas - talk about bad taste! If nothing else, at least they could mock and ridicule you a bit. One thing that is NOT fun is being killed by another player - that sort of goes against "the rules," you know.

This webpage may serve your ninja interests better than birthright.net could:

http://www.realultimatepower.net/

Eosin the Red

06-23-2003, 10:09 PM

You know, I thought about posting that link. You snooze, you loose.

Eosin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark_Aurel" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Going against the group. [10#1748]

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1748
>
> Mark_Aurel wrote:
> You should be kicked by the group simply for liking ninjas - talk about
bad taste! If nothing else, at least they could mock and ridicule you a bit.
One thing that is NOT fun is being killed by another player - that sort of
goes against "the rules," you know.
>
> This webpage may serve your ninja interests better than birthright.net
could:
>
> http://www.realultimatepower.net/
>
>
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Green Knight

06-24-2003, 12:04 AM

Funny,

but there is actually more crap than stuff on the list at the
moment...one weekend, 100+ messages, and loads of crap, crap, and utter
crap.

Please? Anyone?

B

-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Eosin the Red
Sent: 23. juni 2003 23:52
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: Going against the group. [10#1748]

You know, I thought about posting that link. You snooze, you loose.

Eosin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark_Aurel" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Going against the group. [10#1748]

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1748
>
> Mark_Aurel wrote:
> You should be kicked by the group simply for liking ninjas - talk
about
bad taste! If nothing else, at least they could mock and ridicule you a
bit.
One thing that is NOT fun is being killed by another player - that sort
of
goes against "the rules," you know.
>
> This webpage may serve your ninja interests better than birthright.net
could:
>
> http://www.realultimatepower.net/
>
>
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Trithemius

06-24-2003, 12:04 AM

Mark_Aurel says:
> You should be kicked by the group simply for liking ninjas -
> talk about bad taste! If nothing else, at least they could
> mock and ridicule you a bit. One thing that is NOT fun is
> being killed by another player - that sort of goes against
> "the rules," you know.
>
> This webpage may serve your ninja interests better than
> birthright.net could:
>
> http://www.realultimatepower.net/

Is this really necessary? -I- like the concept of ninja, in an
appropriate setting.

People should confine their "disses" to private email so I don`t have to
deal with their `wit` when I want to read about BR matters.

Thanks in advance.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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geeman

06-24-2003, 01:52 AM

At 12:12 AM 6/24/2003 +0200, Bjørn Eian Sørgjerd wrote:

>Funny,
>
>but there is actually more crap than stuff on the list at the
>moment...one weekend, 100+ messages, and loads of crap, crap, and utter
>crap.
>
>Please? Anyone?

Everything goes through phases. Got something more substantive you`d like
to discuss?

Gary

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NinjaCorps

06-24-2003, 04:45 AM

To Mark and all that think as he does.

I do not know what you think BR is, but I asure you it is not all that much like a normal D&D game. BR is able to have a bit more PC to PC conflict. This is allowed based on the fact that the PC's playing in the game are from different backgrounds, being of different countries and all. If they were to agree on everything then they would just be the same country.(Learn more about Medievil politics, and I do not mean anything that has to do with those Fairy Tale knightly things.)
War and politics in this type of a setting have few rules. Even if they are clearly printed there is no super strong force to enforce them. Unless your DM makes you follow some set rules when dealing with other nations in your game. If your DM does that then he and all others within your group are missing out on a big part of this game.

P.S.
As most Clearics are ment to be zealots they should not get along with most of the groups that people allow them to be friends with. A zealot holds himself to a higher set of rules than those that I lable "For The Good Of The Group Rules."
If you are not playing a Clearic as a truely righteous bastard then you are missing out on a lot that class has to offer in the way of RPG'ing.(Note: The Clearic is not based on this discussion, only the conflict that he should create in the group for being so righteous relates to this topic.)

Trithemius

06-24-2003, 08:30 AM

NinjaCorps sez:
> I do not know what you think BR is, but I asure you it is not
> all that much like a normal D&D game. BR is able to have a
> bit more PC to PC conflict. This is allowed based on the
> fact that the PC`s playing in the game are from different
> backgrounds, being of different countries and all. If they
> were to agree on everything then they would just be the same
> country.(Learn more about Medievil politics, and I do not
> mean anything that has to do with those Fairy Tale knightly
> things.) War and politics in this type of a setting have few
> rules. Even if they are clearly printed there is no super
> strong force to enforce them. Unless your DM makes you
> follow some set rules when dealing with other nations in your
> game. If your DM does that then he and all others within
> your group are missing out on a big part of this game.

I am not sure if you`ll understand what I mean if I say "You are
preaching to the choir" so I`ll say this: Most of us are not -too-
shabby with this particular fact. A lot of us have deep interest in
history and politics - some of us even have tertiary qualifications in
such things.

Certain people may have been a little "rough" on you, but I heartily
enjoin you to not lecture people in such a way.

> P.S.
> As most Clearics are ment to be zealots they should not get
> along with most of the groups that people allow them to be
> friends with. A zealot holds himself to a higher set of
> rules than those that I lable "For The Good Of The Group
> Rules." If you are not playing a Clearic as a truely
> righteous bastard then you are missing out on a lot that
> class has to offer in the way of RPG`ing.(Note: The Clearic
> is not based on this discussion, only the conflict that he
> should create in the group for being so righteous relates to
> this topic.)

I pretty much totally disagree with you about this. Certainly some sorts
of clerics will lend themselves to irritating zealotry, but others will
not. I think it is a kind of generalisation that is not really
productive.

Now, lets all stop "going against each other", like Kenneth said
earlier.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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kgauck

06-24-2003, 09:50 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "NinjaCorps" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 11:45 PM

> Learn more about Medievil politics, and I do not mean anything that has
> to do with those Fairy Tale knightly things.

I rather think some of the folklore is more brutal than the history. For
example, I don`t encounter many combat beheadings in history, but they pop
up all the time in works like Tristan. Folk tales like those found in
Grimm`s (think Hansel and Gretel) feature cool elements, from the cannibal
witch to Rapunzel. Betrayals in literature are more embelished. I`m all
for using history, but don`t write off the literary side.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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kgauck

06-24-2003, 09:50 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "NinjaCorps" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 11:45 PM

> If you are not playing a Clearic as a truely righteous bastard then
> you are missing out on a lot that class has to offer in the way of
RPG`ing.

If I were to take your advice to study my history, I might suggest the value
in playing the corrupt priest, the priest seeking power not salvation, the
lazy priest who collects his income and ignores his duties, and a whole host
of figures (most types mentioned in the Canterbury Tales).

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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geeman

06-24-2003, 01:31 PM

At 04:19 AM 6/24/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> > Learn more about Medievil politics, and I do not mean anything that has
> > to do with those Fairy Tale knightly things.
>
>I rather think some of the folklore is more brutal than the history. For
>example, I don`t encounter many combat beheadings in history, but they pop
>up all the time in works like Tristan. Folk tales like those found in
>Grimm`s (think Hansel and Gretel) feature cool elements, from the cannibal
>witch to Rapunzel. Betrayals in literature are more embelished. I`m all
>for using history, but don`t write off the literary side.

If someone were to tell the original stories to children that are now
considered "fairy tales" it would probably be considered verbal child
abuse. In the original versions of these tales Little Red Riding Hood (not
much more sexual metaphor possible in that name) doesn`t get away from the
wolf, nor does Goldilocks escape the three bears. It isn`t a kiss that
wakes Sleeping Beauty and the handsome prince was originally a married man,
so when Beauty shows up a year later with a couple of newborn babes in tow
his wife takes it badly--and kills her. If you want to check out some
particularly gruesome stuff take a look at how Cinderella`s step-mother
pruned her daughter`s feet in order to try to get them to fit into the
slipper. What most of us consider fairy tales are the gutted versions of
some pretty horrific stories. The Victorian period is when the lion`s
share of the bowdlerization of these stories happened, something that
Disney took to a whole new, technicolor level of smarminess so that now we
think of these things as being for children when they were really meant for
a much more broad group--and in many ways childhood was not the
artificially extended period of innocence that it is nowadays.

In fact, it would be possible to define a "fairy tale" as any of the
stories that had been retold in such a way as to remove the darker
elements. Imagine some of the tales of the medieval period that are not
fairy tales. Beowulf, for example. That`s not a fairy tale because the
original version has not been significantly altered--or the darker elements
of it have not been totally expunged, at least. If we were to retell the
story and have Grendel and his mom become good friends with our Nordic
strongman then it would become a fairy tale. (I hereby claim the copyright
to "Beowulf and Grendel: A Love Story.")

I`m not saying we should ignore the happy versions of the tales--after all
they do serve a certain purpose--nor that we should inflict horror stories
on our pre-teens, though I think that`d be better for them than hours of
musically retarded boy bands or posters of that Britney person`s
midriff. For our purposes, however, the grimmer versions of the tales are
more apt.

Now, as for the politics of the medieval period, I think there are lots of
folks around here who have a pretty good handle on the brutalities of the
period. By and large D&D players engage in a fairly sanitized version of
"reality" than is generally endorsed by the game, a perspective that is not
at all limited to the political level of play. Most people assume that D&D
characters tend to bathe on a regular if not daily basis, wear clothes that
are comfortable and clean, and eat food that is savory and sanitary. In
fact, for most of the medieval period these things were very far from a
priority. Similarly, the politics of the era was often very
brutal. Though it was the period in which chivalry, the codes of
knighthood were developed, and many people dedicated themselves to
spiritual development, in many ways it is equally notable how those things
were ignored at will throughout the fifth through the fifteenth centuries
for the sake of hatred, personal ambition or expedience.

The thing people are taking issue with here is not whether or not
assassination could or should take place in the Birthright setting. It
certainly should. It is, in fact, already established in the domain
rules. We have an Espionage: Assassination domain action. Now, one could
argue that that domain action is not prominent enough for someone`s taste,
so one should tweak it to make it more significant. In my experience most
people who play BR seem to find it too powerful. If allowed without
restriction it many campaigns it could easily dominate the game--not to
mention supplant any adventure level of play.

The other issue is the "ninja" term being used which strikes most people as
being a non sequitur in the predominantly Western BR setting. Ninjas are,
of course, distinctly Asian in flavor. In fact, they are pretty distinctly
Japanese. That`s not to say that the function of killing individuals by
surprise and stealth didn`t exist anywhere else in the world. "Ninja" as a
term implies a campaign with an Eastern theme. If we were to use the term
to describe the situation in an alternate Oriental Adventures version of
the BR setting--which several people have played in the past--or simply
replace the term "ninja" with "assassin" which has a more commonly accepted
usage then I think the discussion on the subject would be more useful.

The last thing on the subject that I`d like to address in this post is the
original poster`s view that ninjas (or assassins) and the art of attacking
by surprise is gutted by the D&D rules. I don`t think this is the
case. The rules for surprise attacks by rogues in 3e can be very, very
significant. I don`t have all the analysis of the scaling up process that
sneak attacks allow handy I`m afraid, but IIRC that special ability
actually let`s rogues not only keep on pace with fighters in combat but at
medium and upper levels they surpass them. There are always variables that
can alter that, of course, but as class abilities alone go it is at least
as strong as any other class ability in the game aside from the perennial
D&D omni-power: magic. In most later d20 supplements the sneak attack
ability of rogues is highly limited. We`ll see what happens in 3.5.

In that context what seems to have been proposed in this "ninja" concept is
that a character who adopts those techniques is going to be more powerful
than a similarly levelled character of another type. That`s a pretty
common issue around here, really. Many people have expressed a similar
opinion about scions. The logic is that such characters are simply more
powerful on a comparative basis and the rules should allow that. I think
this opinion misses one of the fundamental aspects of the system, and a
sort of general concept in gaming. That is, that a system that is balanced
does not mean equal. One set of characters can certainly be more powerful
than another set of characters. It`s really a question of whether or not
one wants to account for that difference in a way that lets the DM develop
challenging adventures and assign accurate rewards for success. One could
absolutely make up a ninja character class that had a bunch of class
abilities and traits that made such characters superior to all other
characters of equal level. For the purpose of the DM and the game
mechanics, however, it would make sense to have a way of measuring that
character`s abilities and powers so that rewards for that character`s
success are not disproportionate to it`s actual use and challenges that
s/he confronts are actually challenging. That`s just good game design.

Laters,
Gary

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NinjaCorps

06-25-2003, 07:47 AM

Might I first say, I enjoyed your post. I found it informed and for the most part agreeable.

The campain is not out of any book, but it does have a Western Medievil theme. My country is the only one of an Eastern theme.
I do not think that the Sneak Attack is a powerful one based on this. Sneak Attack is a called shot to a vital area which inflicts a more damaging wound on its victim. My problem with the "vital" area that is wounded by this attack does not seem to be a very "vital" area as it does little against a fighter of eguall level when at medium or high levels. At this time in the game I am a level 6 Rogue and there is a level 6 Fighter in our group with 55 Hp. I get a +3d6 to my damage roll, my weapons are odd so lets say I have a dagger(Total possible is 22.) This seems odd to me for such an attack. If I am behind a fighter in full plate mail and I stab him through the beaver he should not only get no AC for this, but he should also be very much dead. In D&D the 55 Hp fighter would not die from this, and would be free to attack me on his next turn. He would then be at 33 Hp, which is 8 more than I have at full, and he would have a good chance to kill me. I think They should make Sneak Attack into Coupe De Grace and Make CDG have added damage. I am sorry if some of you think that is too powerful, but stealth is a very powerful tool.(If the fighter can not hear me coming then he deserves whatever he gets.)
I also do not get why the Rogue class has such a great Reflex Save tied into it, but has such a bad Base Attack Bonus when compared to that of a fighter.
I am sure there is more I ment to say, but I have a bad memory and can not remember anything more I ment to write. That is what the Edit tool is for.

irdeggman

06-25-2003, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by NinjaCorps

Might I first say, I enjoyed your post. I found it informed and for the most part agreeable.

The campain is not out of any book, but it does have a Western Medievil theme. My country is the only one of an Eastern theme.
I do not think that the Sneak Attack is a powerful one based on this. Sneak Attack is a called shot to a vital area which inflicts a more damaging wound on its victim. My problem with the "vital" area that is wounded by this attack does not seem to be a very "vital" area as it does little against a fighter of eguall level when at medium or high levels. At this time in the game I am a level 6 Rogue and there is a level 6 Fighter in our group with 55 Hp. I get a +3d6 to my damage roll, my weapons are odd so lets say I have a dagger(Total possible is 22.) This seems odd to me for such an attack. If I am behind a fighter in full plate mail and I stab him through the beaver he should not only get no AC for this, but he should also be very much dead. In D&D the 55 Hp fighter would not die from this, and would be free to attack me on his next turn. He would then be at 33 Hp, which is 8 more than I have at full, and he would have a good chance to kill me. I think They should make Sneak Attack into Coupe De Grace and Make CDG have added damage. I am sorry if some of you think that is too powerful, but stealth is a very powerful tool.(If the fighter can not hear me coming then he deserves whatever he gets.)
I also do not get why the Rogue class has such a great Reflex Save tied into it, but has such a bad Base Attack Bonus when compared to that of a fighter.
I am sure there is more I ment to say, but I have a bad memory and can not remember anything more I ment to write. That is what the Edit tool is for.

Ok from this post I take it you are playing by 3rd ed rules. There is a world of difference between 2nd ed and 3rd ed. 2nd had had "everyone against each other" characters were fighting over their share of the experience point pie, thieves got points for stealing (even from other players). In 3rd ed however the entire exp system is based on cooperation (which IMO is a tremendous step forward in game play). The experience is shared by all and no class gets any "special" experience awards. Things are also designed for awarding exp for defeating and enemy and overcoming an obstacle. The latter is most often used when an adventuring party can bypass an overwhelming challenge by"smart" play vice "wading on in and killing them all".

I also assume that your character is evil, since every source makes assassins evil in alignment. This has its own special attachments if you are playing in a predominantly "good" group. Of course they are going to be against you (or more specifically against your PC) , your character's actions would demonstrate the untrustworthiness of the character.

I also agree with John that not all clerics are zealots and prosyltizers (spelling). Even paladins are not always proslytizing, but rather lead by example and of course are generally a "pain in the arse" for the party because they are always insisting on "helping those in need" and giving away the party's hard earned acquisitions. If all clerics were zealots as you state then the influence of Erik and Rournil would be much greater than they are - generally they stick to themselves and don't try to spread the faith by converting everyone they see., BR is after all a polytheistic setting.

Now as far as playing an "evil" character in a predominantly "good" party. I had a character play an evil character in one of my games and there was another player who insisted on being a paladin-like (when it suited him) character. The player with the evil character played it extremely well, I had no doubt he was evil by his non-party actions. That's a big advantage to the domain action side, the actions are less personal. But when in an adventuring situation, he did nothing to disrupt the party. He did make snide remarks and had a habit of laughing "at characters" while making them believe he was laughing "with them". (The player is a tremendous role-player) There was also a paladin of Cuircean in the party, and since the evil character worshiped Eloele he had a tendancy to "like" someone who worshiped his deity's beloved. This didn't stop him from "taking advantage" of the character by having him "go first" and "leave last", or convince him that that person over there was really an evil thief who had plotted to usurp the throne, and things like that - he just never tried to kill another party member. Note that eventually there formed a scism between the characters and I had to split the group up into two separate factions, one mostly good and the other run by the three thieves who inherited Endier (one was the evil character and one was actually the realm regent - a manic-depressive fighter - too easy to take advantage of).

Heck in a different setting (Dark Sun) I played a cn character who "convinced" the rest of the party that the people on that trade wagon actually had the supplies that we had paid for and were trying to keep them from us, so they wiped out an innocent group of NPCs but didn't know it. There are many ways to play a non-trustworthy (or evil) character without disrupting the party or trying to "kill" all the party members. This has historically been the problem with the assassin class, players feel that they must try to kill the other PCs.

Oh yeah - samurais were the "honorable" warriors and ninjas were "professional" assassins. They didn't kill just for the "fun of it". Unlike many treatments, IMO, ninjas and assassins should be lawful in alignment since they "keep their word", otherwise they are out of business. I'd also go with the "not good" alignment restriction, since it would allow a lawful neutral alignment which seems to be pretty accurate most of the time, IMO.

A question - you are constantly using the phrase that another player told me. How did your character get his information? Was it in-game (i.e., character to character) or was it meta-game (player to player). The former is the only truly acceptable way to role-play. Using the latter makes things "personal" between players and no longer a game. Its hard to tell which one you are talking about from your posts.

IMO, if a player was consistently (note the word consistently) playing characters that were trying to "kill" the other PCs they should probably be expected to be "asked to leave" the group since this would diminish the fun aspect since instead of looking for outward trouble, the players meta-game thinking would constantly be watching the player's PC.:)

Doyle

06-25-2003, 10:07 AM

Perhaps your GM could consider an attack that is totally unexpected as
if it is against a prone target - which is an auto-CDG from memory. Do
not forget however, that this should not work against any class that
gets bonuses against sneak attack

Doyle

-----Original Message-----
NinjaCorps wrote:
<snip>
I do not think that the Sneak Attack is a powerful one based on this.
Sneak Attack is a called shot to a vital area which inflicts a more
damaging wound on its victim. My problem with the "vital" area that
is wounded by this attack does not seem to be a very "vital" area as
it does little against a fighter of eguall level when at medium or high
levels. At this time in the game I am a level 6 Rogue and there is a
level 6 Fighter in our group with 55 Hp. I get a +3d6 to my damage
roll, my weapons are odd so lets say I have a dagger(Total possible is
22.) This seems odd to me for such an attack. If I am behind a fighter
in full plate mail and I stab him through the beaver he should not only
get no AC for this, but he should also be very much dead. I think They
should make Sneak Attack into Coupe De Grace and Make CDG have added
damage. I am sorry if some of you think that is too powerful, but
stealth is a very powerful tool.(If the fighter can not hear me coming
then
he deserves whatever he gets.)

I am sure there is more I ment to say, but I have a bad memory and can
not remember anything more I ment to write. That is what the Edit tool
is for.

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NinjaCorps

06-26-2003, 02:43 AM

I am not an assassain, I am a Rogue that will be a form of Ninja as soon as I am allowed to become one. I have never played a character that has tryed to kill any members of the group before. The only reason I plan to kill one (Note: one) of the group members now, is becuase he has said in character that he wishes me dead and is keeping another character from healing me.(He is one of those people that is playing an honorable knightly fighter when it suits him, but has a tendency to change his path when he wishes to. He does not do this in a combat situation, only while role playing.)

I do not know about the auto crit for Sneak Attack. I think it would be best if it were more like a roll to hit, auto crit, and a possible instant death if it is a double crit.(Double Crit= Roll a natual crit on the to hit die roll, then add it to the auto crit.) Oh, and add your Sneak Attack damage as normal.

Mark_Aurel

06-26-2003, 04:00 AM

So, potentially doing if you have a +3d6 sneak attack, potentially being able to get in 2-3 attacks for a total of +6d6 to +9d6 damage (no save) before your victim can even respond isn't good enough?

Surprise round + Win initiative (victim still flat-footed) and full attack will get you that. At 20th level, that's about 4 total attacks for a potential of +40d6. They even work at a 30 ft. range.

Yeah, sneak attacks definitely aren't good enough.

irdeggman

06-26-2003, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by Mark_Aurel

So, potentially doing if you have a +3d6 sneak attack, potentially being able to get in 2-3 attacks for a total of +6d6 to +9d6 damage (no save) before your victim can even respond isn't good enough?

Surprise round + Win initiative (victim still flat-footed) and full attack will get you that. At 20th level, that's about 4 total attacks for a potential of +40d6. They even work at a 30 ft. range.

Yeah, sneak attacks definitely aren't good enough.

And that's why Improved Initiative is one of the most valuable feats available to a rogue (and most arcane spellcasters too for that matter).:)

irdeggman

06-26-2003, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by NinjaCorps

I am not an assassain, I am a Rogue that will be a form of Ninja as soon as I am allowed to become one. I have never played a character that has tryed to kill any members of the group before. The only reason I plan to kill one (Note: one) of the group members now, is becuase he has said in character that he wishes me dead and is keeping another character from healing me.(He is one of those people that is playing an honorable knightly fighter when it suits him, but has a tendency to change his path when he wishes to. He does not do this in a combat situation, only while role playing.)

This fills in some of the gaps from your discussion. There are "several" ways to play this without setting up some sort of player-to-player in-party conflict, or adding to the flame of one that's already there.

You could just take advantage of certain circumstances that will inevitably present themselves:
"We need to scout ahead and see what's up there. You, rogue go check it out and report back. My liege , I found nothing that would present a problem for you (a little sarcasm never hurts in role-play) - a couple of goblins is all I saw." {When in fact there was a whole group laying a trap.} (This leads to the obvious that the rogue set up the character in question, which is what is wanted to be avoided.)
"The path appears clear." {When in fact you found a trap} This one would require that the DM inform your character (and only your character) of what was found when checking for traps. (Which is not a non-standard method of doing things)
There is always the failure to come to the character in question's aid when the situation demands it. The wounded rogue should obviously remain with the likewise drained cleric for the cleric's "protection" instead of marching up front in combat. And of course any cleric worth his salt (depends on the deity of course) would tend to watch over the injured party member.

Most of these would force the "other" player to play the bad guy PC and receive the other player's disdain and their PC's potential revenge.

It should also be noted that no PC can "force" a cleric to not heal someone or to heal someone unless that player wants to play his PC that way. The in-game ramifications of ordering a cleric around are just too devastating - can you say "Free Agitation" or even better the cleric will refuse to perform the necessary Investiture that the character in question really needs. Clerics (and rogues for that matter) have quite a lot of power in a BR game. Typically a rogue controls the banks that a fighter-type regent needs to tap into in order to raise/maintain his army and of course a cleric would control the people (agitate) and the ceremony of Investiture.

Typically it is better to attempt to "rise above" other player's power plays when in-party. Show them by example how to play a character that can work well with others when the need arises and not one that is always attempting to gain the upper hand - again that is what the domain level of play is for, it is a lot less "personal". However, I would not recommend that you play your rogue such that he "kills" the other player's characte in-party, instead use domain actions to accomplish this. I would question your DM's skills in this matter though since he seems to be fostering this type of in-party conflict which is by every historical reconning a fun-killer for players. It is fun to play characters that don't get along as long as they are not constantly at each other's throats (literally).

From what you describe the "knightly fighter's" player is playing him as a pompous self serving regent who thinks that he should be the next to sit on the Iron Throne (if in Anuire) - probably Anuirean - most other human races wouldn't quite fall into that clear cut power position, except for maybe the Vos and then the character would just beat the lowly rogue into a pulp. Khinasi are more usurping minded, that is to say that they would attempt to gain power less by force and more by more subtle means (Sayim) and Brecht value money more than military power.

Ariadne

06-26-2003, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by NinjaCorps

I currently play a character that does not always go with the ideas of the whole group. My character has been threatened by the other members of the group, and I am now in the act of killing most of the group so that I may protect myself from them.

I am lucky that my DM cares more about the game than the feelings of the players. He knows much of what I plan to do, and has been told enough to figure out the rest. It is good to have a DM that will not thwart my plans just becuase I happen to be going against the group.

Have any of you ever gone against the group in such a harsh way?

Also remember to complete the poll attached to this thread. Tell me what you think should happen to me.
Well, in our group it happened several times, that a player with an evil character went against the whole group. It ended always every time, that the "rampaging" character was killed and did start anew with a more moderate alignment. IMO the player played his character really cool, but with doing so he has to think of consequences (and if he isn't much higher in level, the group IS stronger)...

So keep on with your behavior (your character has NOTHING to do with you as a person) and if he is evil, he is it and behaves so (or good, if the rest of the group is evil), but think of the consequences...

If you play a paladin against an evil group, good luck ;)

NinjaCorps

06-26-2003, 03:45 PM

It is kind of funny. I told my DM to stop telling me what I see amongst the group, and to tell me through signals.(By this I mean traps and items.)

I had planed to convince the rest of the group to allow the character to fight on his own to see what it would be like if the rest of us were not there.(If he were to die during this, I would not mind all that much.)

The Cleric is only able to be ordered around so easily becuase he is still a bit of a new player and lacks the confidence of a seasoned player.(That will soon change though.)

All will be well. I have a lot more than just a few tricks up my sleeves.

NinjaCorps

06-26-2003, 05:25 PM

Did I mention that we do not use the preset races of Humans. We make our own that have nothing to do with those that are unique to the BR world.

Also, after talking to you and my DM I now feel better about the current situation, and I am very well prepared to deal with it as my character would. Thank you for allowing me to blow off a bit of steam.(Message Boards relax me a great deal.)

irdeggman

06-26-2003, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by NinjaCorps

Did I mention that we do not use the preset races of Humans. We make our own that have nothing to do with those that are unique to the BR world.

Then you are not really playing Birthright. As many have pointed out the setting is more important than the rules being used. Part of the Birthright setting is the way the races coexist (not the stats associated with them). For example, the Anuireans conquered the Khinasi but eventually got ousted, they also conquered the Brecht, but the Brecht are very like the Borg and assimilated the Anuireans into their society. The elves and almost all of the human races (pretty much except the Vos) are in a state of mistrust that often edges on war. These interactions are essential to the setting and should not be dismissed.

The other major contributor to the setting is the deities and the fact that the elves have no deities.

If you are not using these, then you are not playing Birthright but have rather layered on the domain system (and probably the blood abilites) onto some other campaign setting.

Sorry for being so harsh on this but it is a very significant statement that you made. I don't have any problems with people using their home-made rules or "modifying" things to suit their gameplay, but when people do something like layer on blood abiliites to a different setting (like Forgotten Realms) I get a little put off since the setting itself (Birthright) is being dismissed.

Good luck with your situation (game wise).([_]

Birthright-L

06-26-2003, 08:00 PM

Actually, the best feat for a rogue is quick draw.

On a surprise round the rogue can be standing right next to his victim and
sneak attack him with a newly pulled weapon.

Then the Improved Initiative comes in and he bests the enemy again on
initiative and gets to slap the poor sod silly with sneak attack damage.

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

And that`s why Improved Initiative is one of the most valuable feats
available to a rogue (and most arcane spellcasters too for that matter).:)

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irdeggman

06-26-2003, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by Birthright-L

Actually, the best feat for a rogue is quick draw.

Tony

I'd readily agree except that the note in table 8-4 which allows drawing a weapon to be combined with a regular move for anyone with a +1 BAB (the prerequisite for quick draw). Hence the feat's usefullness has pretty much been diminished - unless a full attack action is required (usually only for high level characters with multiple attacks) {Minimum 8th level single class rogue}.

But regardless quick draw could still be a usefull feat - I only hope it gets revised when 3.5 comes out and made a little better like what they are doing to endurance.:)

Birthright-L

06-26-2003, 08:40 PM

Come on guys....read an entire post and get it before re-posting. I said on
a surprise round it is good. You can draw your weapon and attack....if you
don`t have quick draw you can`t do that on a surprise round if you use a
move action.

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Actually, the best feat for a rogue is quick draw.

Tony

I`d readily agree except that the note in table 8-4 which allows drawing a
weapon to be combined with a regular move for anyone with a +1 BAB (the
prerequisite for quick draw). Hence the feat`s usefullness has pretty much
been diminished - unless a full attack action is required (usually only for
high level characters with multiple attacks) {Minimum 8th level single class
rogue}.

But regardless quick draw could still be a usefull feat - I only hope it
gets revised when 3.5 comes out and made a little better like what they are
doing to endurance.:)

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ryancaveney

06-26-2003, 10:02 PM

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, irdeggman wrote:

> If you are not using these, then you are not playing Birthright but
> have rather layered on the domain system (and probably the blood
> abilites) onto some other campaign setting.

I disagree, as I`ve said before.

To me, "true" Birthright is precisely what you`ve identified: the domain
rules, and perhaps the blood abilities (possibly even the much-maligned
warcards). Everything else is Cerilia. Yes, I often write "BR" where I
really mean Cerilia, but that`s just because it`s shorter, and because
almost no one else here seems to draw such a distinction.

Personally, I heartily encourage discussing non-Cerilian Birthright (that
is, domain rules in the Realms or Greyhawk or whatever), as well as
discussing non-D&D Cerilia (Ars Magica, Fudge, etc.). This list is really
the only place to share info on either, so it ought to welcome both.

IMO, the BR domain rules are the best and most useful thing to emerge out
of all of D&D, ever. A system for running one`s own fantasy kingdom, and
it actually mostly works -- woohoo! It should be applied to *every*
campaign setting, for every FRPG! =) I love Cerilia, too -- but the two
are to me very different things, which I enjoy in very different ways.

Ryan Caveney

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irdeggman

06-26-2003, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by ryancaveney
IMO, the BR domain rules are the best and most useful thing to emerge out
of all of D&D, ever. A system for running one`s own fantasy kingdom, and
it actually mostly works -- woohoo! It should be applied to *every*
campaign setting, for every FRPG! =) I love Cerilia, too -- but the two
are to me very different things, which I enjoy in very different ways.

Ryan Caveney

True, but don't identify it as a BR game - that is the point I take issue with. I guess I should have been clearer on this. It is very easy to take the BR system of Domain rules and insert them into another setting mostly they can be compatable except for how to handle RP collection without bloodlines. It is another to take the blood ability system (combined with the death of the former gods which defines it) and to "layer it on" another setting. The latter can be done, but for a setting like Forgotten Realms it is like giving everyone access to atomic weapons - it is just not really needed and makes for an extremely powered up setting.:)

geeman

06-27-2003, 12:47 AM

At 07:27 PM 6/26/2003 -0400, Ryan Caveney wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Jun 2003, irdeggman wrote:
>
> > True, but don`t identify it as a BR game - that is the point I take
> > issue with. I guess I should have been clearer on this.
>
>Why not identify it as BR, if it uses BR rules? IMO, that`s the
>definition of "it *is* BR," even if the setting in which you`re using the
>rules started out as Harn or Tekumel or whatever. I consider Solmyr`s
>Mystara and Enothril BR-rules PBEMs just as much BR as ITSoD, et al.
>Not Cerilia, of course, but Birthright none the less.

Something like "Birthright domain rules" is probably more descriptive and
would cause less confusion. If someone says "Birthright" that means not
just the domain level of play, but the campaign setting, characters and
background material.

> > It is very easy to take the BR system of Domain rules and insert them
> > into another setting mostly they can be compatable
>
>Yes, exactly! Which means we *should* use them everywhere, bwahahaha! =)

I`ve used them in other settings, including an oriental adventurers version
of BR, and a homebrew campaign. However, both those settings had
historical events that paralleled Deismaar. My own view--as I`ve noted a
couple of times--is that the domain rules of BR and the system of bloodline
is too particular to the overall BR setting to be particularly apt for
other campaigns. If I were to go back and replay the Cataclysm Campaign
(the homebrew) I`d use a very different system that probably wouldn`t look
very much like the BR domain rules.

That`s not to say you couldn`t do it, of course. One could `port the BR
system pretty much straight into any setting. Similarly, we could make up
a GURPS: Birthright system, or use the BR domain rules to reflect the
domain level of play in a Call of Cthulhu campaign. It`s just a matter of
how playable the system would be in such a campaign and whether or not the
rules as written will satisfy the players and DM. I don`t think I`d be
very satisfied with such a use of the domain rules myself, but each to
his/her own.

One last note on this subject. I think it`s important to note that if one
makes some changes to the rules for domain level of play for use in another
setting then it`s not really "Birthright" any more by either
definition. If a ruleset differs from the original more than one D&D
edition (or some other game`s editions) vary from each other then it`s
probably not the same beast anymore. More important than that, though, is
this: Who cares? 3e, D20, BR, whatever. Just so it works.

Gary

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ryancaveney

06-27-2003, 12:47 AM

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003, irdeggman wrote:

> True, but don`t identify it as a BR game - that is the point I take
> issue with. I guess I should have been clearer on this.

Why not identify it as BR, if it uses BR rules? IMO, that`s the
definition of "it *is* BR," even if the setting in which you`re using the
rules started out as Harn or Tekumel or whatever. I consider Solmyr`s
Mystara and Enothril BR-rules PBEMs just as much BR as ITSoD, et al.
Not Cerilia, of course, but Birthright none the less.

> It is very easy to take the BR system of Domain rules and insert them
> into another setting mostly they can be compatable

Yes, exactly! Which means we *should* use them everywhere, bwahahaha! =)

> except for how to handle RP collection without bloodlines.

There have been lots of good suggestions about this over the years.
The simplest is RP = DP, but I somewhat prefer to assign every ruler a
bloodline score and come up with some other backstory for bloodlines.
Heck, I think there are a number of more interesting ways to tell the
origin story of bloodlines *within* Cerilia.

> It is another to take the blood ability system (combined with the
> death of the former gods which defines it) and to "layer it on"
> another setting.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. It`s such a good idea that
it begs to be stolen! I think a great fantasy RPG could be had by using
D&D with the bloodline system as written, but *no other magic*.

> The latter can be done, but for a setting like Forgotten Realms it is
> like giving everyone access to atomic weapons - it is just not really
> needed and makes for an extremely powered up setting.:)

I thought the whole point of the Realms was that everyone *already* had
access to atomic weapons and electric toaster ovens, yes? ;>

Ryan Caveney

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irdeggman

06-27-2003, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by Birthright-L

Come on guys....read an entire post and get it before re-posting. I said on
a surprise round it is good. You can draw your weapon and attack....if you
don`t have quick draw you can`t do that on a surprise round if you use a
move action.

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Actually, the best feat for a rogue is quick draw.

Tony

I`d readily agree except that the note in table 8-4 which allows drawing a
weapon to be combined with a regular move for anyone with a +1 BAB (the
prerequisite for quick draw). Hence the feat`s usefullness has pretty much
been diminished - unless a full attack action is required (usually only for
high level characters with multiple attacks) {Minimum 8th level single class
rogue}.

But regardless quick draw could still be a usefull feat - I only hope it
gets revised when 3.5 comes out and made a little better like what they are
doing to endurance.:)

True. But I was responding to the first sentence "Actually, the best feat for a rogue is quick draw." With its limited application the quick draw feat is less desireable (not undesireable, just less so) than the Improved Initiative feat. You did point out its usefullness as a partial action (most often used during a surprise round). But unless the rogue is withing 5' of the opponent he would have to charge to make an attack in a partial round so no benefit.

The question is how often will a rogue gain a partial action from a surprise round and not be prepared to attack? Most often the surprise is the result of sneaking up on his opponent (Hide/Move Silently).:)

Trithemius

06-27-2003, 03:46 AM

Ryan sez:
> ...(possibly even the much-maligned warcards)...

Hiss! Boo!
*maligns the warcards again*

> Personally, I heartily encourage discussing non-Cerilian
> Birthright (that is, domain rules in the Realms or Greyhawk
> or whatever), as well as discussing non-D&D Cerilia (Ars
> Magica, Fudge, etc.). This list is really the only place to
> share info on either, so it ought to welcome both.

Agreed. I am, more and more, convinced that d20 is not the best system
to use at all. I`d prefer Ars Magica or even HeroWars/HeroQuest for any
game that I am going to run.

Does that mean that I should stop posting here?

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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DanMcSorley

06-27-2003, 04:29 AM

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003, John Machin wrote:
> Agreed. I am, more and more, convinced that d20 is not the best system
> to use at all. I`d prefer Ars Magica or even HeroWars/HeroQuest for any
> game that I am going to run.
>
> Does that mean that I should stop posting here?

But you just started again :)

I`m going to have to look into this ars magic thing. Soon, every
game I play, I will probably have heard about from John, the obscure game
evangelist extraordinaire.

Really, though, the more I game, the more I become convinced that the
system itself is irrelevant. Most of the gamers I know around here know
and play d20, so if I get to run a regular BR game someday soon, it`ll
probably be with that.
--
Daniel McSorley

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NinjaCorps

06-27-2003, 05:01 AM

This is only a hunch mind you, but I think that my group is playing a future world of BR. One that is not modern in our sense, but is past the days of those races. Then again it could be one of before them as well.(I doubt that though.)

I am usually right about these things, and I say that we are playing one of the BR world only a bit more grown up.

If not then it is his own creation.

Trithemius

06-27-2003, 05:03 AM

Dan McSorley sez:
> But you just started again :)

Don`t mind me, I`m just being melodramatic ;)

> I`m going to have to look into this ars magic thing. Soon,
> every game I play, I will probably have heard about from
> John, the obscure game evangelist extraordinaire.

Well, I posted a link to the free download of the rules a while back (I
think). Apparently you have to go through a bit of rigamarole in order
to download it (I already own two copies of the rulebook so haven`t
bothered to get the PDF) but I think it is more than worth it.

Now, if only I could somehow get the game companies to give me money, or
free products, for doing all of this ;)

> Really, though, the more I game, the more I become convinced
> that the system itself is irrelevant. Most of the gamers I
> know around here know and play d20, so if I get to run a
> regular BR game someday soon, it`ll probably be with that.

I`m inclined to agree with you mostly. Although some systems are cool
for their own reasons (Feng Shui is cool, and The Dying Earth is also
cool). Neither of them are really "Birthrightable" though.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Birthright-L

06-27-2003, 11:47 AM

> I am usually right about these things, and I say that we are playing one of the BR world only a bit more grown up.

What does "grown-up" mean in this instance?

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NinjaCorps

06-27-2003, 01:12 PM

By grown up I mean that so much time has gone by that the history has been lost. The Human races are no longer known to be those that are set into the BR world.

Then again I am just a player, not the DM. Only the DM knows what is going on, but that does not mean that I am not at least a little right.

irdeggman

06-27-2003, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by NinjaCorps

By grown up I mean that so much time has gone by that the history has been lost. The Human races are no longer known to be those that are set into the BR world.

Then again I am just a player, not the DM. Only the DM knows what is going on, but that does not mean that I am not at least a little right.

Sort of like a Gamma World treatment? The only problem is the fact that Cerilian elves are immortal (and always have been) so unless they have somehow been exterminated as a race along with those with the long-life blood ability the "future" BR setting concept has a lot of holes in it.

Does the Iron Throne still exist?

kgauck

06-27-2003, 07:49 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "NinjaCorps" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 2:47 AM

> If I am behind a fighter in full plate mail and I stab him through the
> beaver he should not only get no AC for this, but he should also be
> very much dead. I think They should make Sneak Attack into
> Coupe De Grace and Make CDG have added damage. I am sorry
> if some of you think that is too powerful, but stealth is a very powerful
> tool.(If the fighter can not hear me coming then he deserves whatever
> he gets.)

I think this argument is valid, but there are good reasons the game doesn`t
work this way. Any instant death capacity (if your rogue gets instant death
with sneak attack, and my fighter can decapitate with the cleave feat ...)
fundamentally changes the game, and most players argue that the change is
for the bad. Remember that if you can do it to them, they can do it to you.
A goblin`s favored class is rogue, so with their racial bonuses to hide,
there is a good chance of losing a character to a simple encounter with a
goblin before you even get started. This is not most people`s idea of fun.
It may reflect reality, in which violence is frequently lethal, but not part
of most people`s ideal gaming. This is also why in shooting video games it
often takes multiple shots to kill and be killed.

You can dispence with the safety net and make violence realistically lethal,
but if you impliment this totally (and not just for yourself) you end up
starting a lot of characters, or avoiding a lot of combat. Games with
realistically lethal combat almost always have story award xp, not combat
based xp.

Personally, I wanted to ratchet up the risk of violence without going as far
as allowing instant death (sneak attack = death, cleave = decapitation), so
I went with a wound/vitality system, and indicated certain kinds of damage
that do wound damage (critical hits, falling damage) so the risks of combat
were greater, but the more common result was substantial incapacitation, not
permant death. As a DM, I am going to throw every trick I can think of
against the players, including ambushes, sneak attacks, and characters
min-maxed to kill them (the Darth Maul what does this guy do when not
hunting down PC`s character) from time to time. I don`t actually want them
to die, the characters are too neat and their situations are interesting, &c
&c &c, but I do want them to regard combat as serious and potentially lethal
from the very first hit.

Keep in mind that most players like the strait hit point system precisely
because it limits the chance of death.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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NinjaCorps

06-28-2003, 04:41 AM

My DM has changed us over to a Wound Vit system as well.

By the way, I like the constant fear of death in a game. I do not like it when a fighter can take on an army on his own.(I love Pendragon, ever play it?)

irdeggman

06-28-2003, 11:13 AM

As far as more uses for sneak attack (as written) - if a rogue uses Bluff in combat to faint he can get his next attack to deny his opponent his dex bonus (which makes it qualify for a sneak attack) and this skill use is a free action. There is also no limit to the number of times this trick can be used against the same opponent.

geeman

06-28-2003, 02:37 PM

At 06:41 AM 6/28/2003 +0200, NinjaCorps wrote:

>My DM has changed us over to a Wound Vit system as well.
>
>By the way, I like the constant fear of death in a game. I do not like it
>when a fighter can take on an army on his own.

I still want a fighter to be able to take on an army. I just want doing so
to be about as scary as taking on an appropriate EL individual
monster. That is, a fighter`s ability to take on an EL 10 monster should
be proportionate to taking on a unit of infantry. Assuming, that is, that
the unit of infantry is about 100 characters of levels 1-5 in NPC classes
and led by maybe a single heroic character of 4th or 5th level.

>(I love Pendragon, ever play it?)

I haven`t. It`s been mentioned a couple of times, though. What in
particular do you like about it?

Gary

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ConjurerDragon

06-28-2003, 02:37 PM

irdeggman schrieb:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1748
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> As far as more uses for sneak attack (as written) - if a rogue uses Bluff in combat to faint he can get his next attack to deny his opponent his dex bonus (which makes it qualify for a sneak attack) and this skill use is a free action. There is also no limit to the number of times this trick can be used against the same opponent.
>
>

A free action?
I read that it is a "miscellanerous standard action" in the PHB and
thougth that meant that the Rogue would not be able to use the
Full-Attack option and would be limited to one attack? (which of course
matters only for Rogues of level 8+ who have more than 1 attack anyway).
bye
Michael

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geeman

06-28-2003, 03:24 PM

At 01:13 PM 6/28/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>As far as more uses for sneak attack (as written) - if a rogue uses Bluff
>in combat to faint he can get his next attack to deny his opponent his dex
>bonus (which makes it qualify for a sneak attack) and this skill use is a
>free action. There is also no limit to the number of times this trick can
>be used against the same opponent.

According to the Bluff skill description feinting in combat is a standard
action that does not provoke an AoO. I`ve argued in the past that it makes
that skill a bit too powerful, and doesn`t really belong there in the first
place, but since balance doesn`t seem to be at issue in this thread that`s
probably not much of a problem. There is a class ability (for the
Gladiator prestige class in S&F) that allows a character to make a feint as
a free action, thus gaining the benefit on the same round. Using that
class ability in another prestige class might be the solution here.

Personal experience note: I do a lot of feinting while sparring or
fencing. "Feinting" really comprises a whole set of misleading moves and
tactics. I don`t know that it`s particularly associated with lying,
creating distractions, or the ability to verbally fool another person, nor
do I think Sense Motive is a particularly apt way of determining if a move
is a feint or not, but assuming that one doesn`t want to write up a new
skill Bluff is one way to go. Arguably there are other skills that might
be useful to feint in particular situations. In the same way that Bluff
takes a penalty when used to feint against non-humans I`d argue that Handle
Animal should be useable to feint on animals. In lieu of a combat oriented
skill, however, I`d argue that it could be an opposed dexterity, wisdom or
even charisma check rather than bluff. The option I most favor is to make
it an opposed roll using the characters` Reflex save modifiers.

Personal note: Strangely, my experience with feinting is that it doesn`t
work so well on inexperienced people. A "feint" in a fight with someone
who is trained to fight can be as subtle as a shift of posture or foot
position. A trained combatant recognizes those changes and shifts his own
posture and position to compensate. Unless one is skilled or experienced
enough to recognize the significance of that shift then one doesn`t fall
for it. One has to telescope a feint dramatically in order for it to be
even noticed by an inexperienced fighter.

One method is to fabricate what poker players call "a tell" in order to set
up a feint later. That is, one does some minor physical act before making
an attack. A brief pause before an uppercut, for instance. One does that
three or five times in a row (the mind tends to recognize odd numbers more
readily) and your opponent, consciously or unconsciously, expects that same
pause in subsequent uppercuts. One can then perform that little pause and
your opponent will get set for an uppercut then you deliver a different
kind of attack. Almost as useful is to deliver the attack that one has set
up the tell without doing the tell first. That tends to break the
association of the tell with the attack, so it`s best used as a finishing move.

Gary

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geeman

06-28-2003, 03:34 PM

At 04:11 PM 6/28/2003 +0200, Michael Romes wrote:

>I read that it is a "miscellanerous standard action" in the PHB and
>thougth that meant that the Rogue would not be able to use the
>Full-Attack option and would be limited to one attack? (which of course
>matters only for Rogues of level 8+ who have more than 1 attack anyway).

Just to clarify here: one can move up to one`s movement rate and perform a
single standard action in a round--along with free actions, of
course. Attacking once, casting a spell and using most skills are standard
actions. A character can move and feint in one round, but the character
doesn`t normally get an attack in the round he makes a feint because
attacking (once) is also a standard action. A successful feint sets up the
target for the "next attack" which will typically be in the next melee
round. However, if the target provokes an attack of opportunity, or if
character is _Hasted_ or otherwise gets an additional attack action then it
can happen in the same melee round.

Gary

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DanMcSorley

06-28-2003, 03:34 PM

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> A free action?
> I read that it is a "miscellanerous standard action" in the PHB and
> thougth that meant that the Rogue would not be able to use the
> Full-Attack option and would be limited to one attack? (which of course
> matters only for Rogues of level 8+ who have more than 1 attack anyway).

It`s a standard action, which means it can be done with a move, in place
of your attack for the round. You can`t make your followup attack until
the next round, but it doesn`t matter if you full attack or single attack,
because the loss of dex bonus only applies to your next attack.

There is a feat that lets you do this as a move action, which means you
could then pull off the feint-attack combo in a single round.
--
Daniel McSorley

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NinjaCorps

06-28-2003, 04:25 PM

Pendragon is based more on real life when it comes to being killed.

In Pendragon it is difficult to take on 2 at once, and you would never wish to take on more than that. I once took on 8(Only 4 are able to attack one Human sized target at a time.)I did not do so well. I killed one and then was slaughtered. After that I stopped playing Pendragon like it was D&D.(Oh, did I mention that there is almost no magic in Pendragon? There are no wizards that is for sure.)

I think gamer should play Pendragon so they can at least have a better idea of how easy it is to die in this world.

I also would like to see WotC make a more realistic game for those of us that like playing by hardcore rules.

Please excuse this writing, I just woke up.

NinjaCorps

06-28-2003, 04:46 PM

I think it is funny that most of you think things should happen as they would happen, but there are a few of you that think that going against any member of the group is wrong. Those that think it is wrong must not of had to deal with a group member tring to kill them yet.

I find it strange that my goal is to have a far better outcome than those of my group, but still they think it is wrong. All I wish to do is to unite all the land under one flag.
My group wishes to create secret organizations and go out on adventures instead of taking care of the invasion that is taking place amongst our neighbors and our enemies.
The entire group knows that our enemies have a huge army that could wipe us out with ease, but they still do not care about anything but those things that are within arms reach.
I think ahead, and I know how games of deception are played. I was raised to know them by my family. I was playing as if they were my freinds under their characters, but now I will play my character as he is ment to be played.

I will unite the land under one flag, before it is lost to fools forever.

Trithemius

06-29-2003, 02:20 AM

Michael Romes sez:
> A free action?
> I read that it is a "miscellanerous standard action" in the
> PHB and thougth that meant that the Rogue would not be able
> to use the Full-Attack option and would be limited to one
> attack? (which of course matters only for Rogues of level 8+
> who have more than 1 attack anyway).

This is, I believe, correct.

I thought that the fact that it was a `standard action` precluded being
able to attack?

There is a feat mentioned in Song and Silence that allows it to be done
as a move-equivalent action, which still means that Rogues do not
receive additional attacks based on multiple weapons of BAB.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius

06-29-2003, 02:20 AM

NinjaCorps sez:
> I will unite the land under one flag, before it is lost to
> fools forever.

It`s nice to see people "getting into" their characters, but the IC
board is over there ;)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Birthright-L

06-29-2003, 02:54 AM

That.....and this entire thread is more than a bit off topic now. ;-)

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: John Machin <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>

NinjaCorps sez:
> I will unite the land under one flag, before it is lost to
> fools forever.

It`s nice to see people "getting into" their characters, but the IC
board is over there ;)

--
John Machin

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NinjaCorps

07-03-2003, 02:17 AM

It may be a bit off topic, but it certainly has had a great many replies.

I am just glad I have given all of you something to type about.

Asmodeus

07-28-2003, 11:03 AM

Well I too have gone against my group in a game. (It was in Forgotten Realms though) My character was a rather paranoid thief. (Who had a little bit of a drinking problem) We were tracking a a group of Orks into the hills and came across a cave and decided to camp for the night. When we investigated the cave we found it was an entrance to the Underdark. (According to the all knowing Ranger we had with us)
He had the bright idea of leading us down there. The Ranger and the Paladin went down to see what they could find. and I stayed behind (well thats what i told them) I followed them and over heard them ploting to use me as bait so that they could try and sneak past the Drow they knew were down here. So when they bedded down for some sleep I crept in and killed them both.
And when i turned round I wished i hadn't. What the Dm decided to do was have me ambushed, by the Drow!! You insendently cut off both my arms as i was trying to kill myself with my own short swords! i have never tried anything like that again. (With that DM anyway!!)

irdeggman

07-28-2003, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by Asmodeus@Jul 28 2003, 06:03 AM
Well I too have gone against my group in a game. (It was in Forgotten Realms though) My character was a rather paranoid thief. (Who had a little bit of a drinking problem) We were tracking a a group of Orks into the hills and came across a cave and decided to camp for the night. When we investigated the cave we found it was an entrance to the Underdark. (According to the all knowing Ranger we had with us)
He had the bright idea of leading us down there. The Ranger and the Paladin went down to see what they could find. and I stayed behind (well thats what i told them) I followed them and over heard them ploting to use me as bait so that they could try and sneak past the Drow they knew were down here. So when they bedded down for some sleep I crept in and killed them both.
And when i turned round I wished i hadn't. What the Dm decided to do was have me ambushed, by the Drow!! You insendently cut off both my arms as i was trying to kill myself with my own short swords! i have never tried anything like that again. (With that DM anyway!!)
What the heck kind of paladin was that player running anyways? First in last out and a high mortality rate that's what paladins are all about. They don't use other characters as bait, at least not without their insistance on being the bait but never in secret.

Now 2nd ed rangers also had to be good so they wouldn't be real keen on this type of plan either, although more likely than a paladin. In 3rd ed rangers are more wide open but paladins are still the same "too noble for their own good, let's help everyone we think is in trouble and give away our treasure to the needy, pain in the arses". I've played several invarious Birthright campaigns and in general they were all somewhat of a pain, but they always defended the party (especially the regent lord) from any danger even at risk of their own life.

Osprey

07-28-2003, 08:42 PM

I've been trying to deal with one player with whom I play in several games. In almost every case he plots to screw over his fellow players in some way, seeing everything a competitive light. He's in my Birthright game, chose to play a chatic good wizard regent, and I'm constantly challenging him on his alignment vs. character actions. Big loss of regency is comin' his way when that alignment shifts...
All in all, I think in-group treachery is really obnoxious for any long-running campaign game, although it's OK for short games and one-offs. In Birthright it happens almost naturally, though, if you're running a multi-regent campaign...it's really interesting to watch how power corrupts so many of the "good guys" when faced with the dilemma of expanding at their neighbors' expense. And this is just a game, yet it simulates that aspect of reality surprisingly well. Trusting one's allied regents can be tricky at best...

NinjaCorps

07-30-2003, 09:31 AM

Corruption you say. You do not know what it takes to run a country.

Those things that are not seen, and there are many of unseen actions, are what keep nations afloat. This is even more true for a feudal system.

I know that eveyone wants to think that the honorable king should always get the happy ending, but that is not how things have ever really worked. In the end the fairy tale knights all die, or like that Beowolf guy, change in order to get the job done.

It is a lot easier to stop a charging army than to stop an unseen assassain. I know that none of you D&D playing Fairy Tale Knights want to beleive that, but it is the way things are.

Sometimes a ruler must beat down his neighbors in order to secure the piece of his own nation. Any power that is not claimed by a leader can be used against that leader. If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

To the guy that was ambushed by a Drow becuase his DM thinks people that kill on a regular basis should be all bunnies and flowers to each other.

Your DM should be laughed at in his face. He is a r****d, or at least by my opinion and that of the past.

Sounds like he needs to learn a bit more about Human nature.

Here is your leason Mr. D. M. R****d. People are often driven by the need to survive. When a person is confronted by such a possible out come as, death by betrayal. That person will often feel that the law of, Kill or Be Killed, is now in effect. The person will then kill or be killed, depending upon how much of a retard the person in threat is.

Please come back Mr. R****d. I do enjoy teaching, even more so when the student is a member of the R****d family.

geeman

07-30-2003, 08:15 PM

3 +0200, NinjaCorps wrote:

<quote>Please come back Mr. Retard. I do enjoy teaching, even more so when

the student is a member of the Retard family.</quote>

This kind of blatant name calling is not only unnecessary, but also

unacceptable behavior that clearly violates the Code of Conduct established

by WotC. If you disagree with another poster by all means contribute your

own perspective, but if you are unable to do so without resorting to this

kind of tactic please refrain from posting.

Gary

Birthright-l Moderator

Osprey

07-31-2003, 07:54 PM

3 +0200, NinjaCorps wrote:

Please come back Mr. Retard. I do enjoy teaching, even more so when
the student is a member of the Retard family.

This kind of blatant name calling is not only unnecessary, but also
unacceptable behavior that clearly violates the Code of Conduct established
by WotC. If you disagree with another poster by all means contribute your
own perspective, but if you are unable to do so without resorting to this
kind of tactic please refrain from posting.

Gary
Birthright-l Moderator

In other words, GROW UP!

NinjaCorps

08-01-2003, 08:01 AM

NinjaCorps

08-01-2003, 08:02 AM

Ha ha!

That post was not in argument to another poster, but to another poster's DM. I do not know if that poster's DM is a member of this site, but thank you for not paying attention to what was really said. I appreciate you jummping in without knowing all the facts, it was funny.

Any way.

The post has been cleaned up in the same fashion as dirty lanuage is often done. All is now well, or something like that.

Sorry about the double post, but I thought I would copy Osprey and just repost what has been said, add a few words to it, and act like I was saying something new and important.

Now that is funny.

Also.
If you want to get picky about the rules stated in the agreement, you might want to take action to make that agreement more available to the members of this site.

geeman

08-01-2003, 09:53 AM

+0200, NinjaCorps wrote:

> That post was not in argument to another poster, but to another poster`s

> DM. I do not know if that poster`s DM is a member of this site, but

> thank you for not paying attention to what was really said. I appreciate

> you jummping in without knowing all the facts, it was funny.

>

> Any way.

>

> The post has been cleaned up in the same fashion as dirty lanuage is

> often done. All is now well, or something like that.

If you`d care to email me directly, I`d prefer to take this off the

list/boards. geeman@softhome.net.

Gary

Birthright-l Moderator

Trithemius

08-02-2003, 10:27 AM

/>
> That post was in argument to another poster, but to another

> poster`s DM. I do not know if that poster`s DM is a member

> of this site, but thank you for not paying attention to what

> was really said. I appreciate you jummping in without

> knowing all the facts, it was funny.

Personally, I found it offensive because it was, in essence, a "me too"

post with some thoroughly boring insults tacked on. I like a good insult

as much (better even) as the next guy, but some wit is nice.

Ho hum.

--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

kgauck

08-02-2003, 11:07 AM

ge -----

From: "John Machin" <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>

Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 4:22 AM

> Personally, I found it offensive because it was, in essence, a "me too"

> post with some thoroughly boring insults tacked on. I like a good insult

> as much (better even) as the next guy, but some wit is nice.

Only an absolute cream-faced loon could adopt such a possition. You petty

trafficer of infectious pestilence! I lay upon your caterpiller infested

stoop the decline of civilization and the base and low level of discourse in

all media. To embrace a witty insult? E-gads! You unlettered,

small-knowing vassal of a fat-kidneyed rascal.

> Ho hum.

Indeed! Only such a canker blossom, a juggler, an impudent, tattered

prodigal filled with wickedness, dull and muddied, base and misbegotten,

mangled work of nature could utter such as this.

You sir, are a painted maypole. So there!

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

Trithemius

08-02-2003, 12:12 PM

> You sir, are a painted maypole. So there!

o_O

--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

geeman

08-03-2003, 06:42 AM

+1200, you wrote:

>I like a good insult as much (better even) as the next guy, but some wit

>is nice.

Is this a good time to reintroduce the topic of a Taunt skill?

Gary

Trithemius

08-03-2003, 08:19 AM

s this a good time to reintroduce the topic of a Taunt skill?

Hrm...maybe...

I once made a Scorpion court samurai with Perform (Satire).

--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

geeman

08-03-2003, 11:26 AM

+1200, John Machin wrote:

>I once made a Scorpion court samurai with Perform (Satire).

One very interesting class I took a while back was "The Role of Satire in

Literature." An excellent reading list for that class. That kind of thing

reminds me of how feared a really good satire could be by those in power,

and the ability of ridicule to destroy a person`s credibility and thus his

authority and power. That`s the kind of thing that isn`t very well

portrayed in gaming, I`m afraid, but I think something connected to a

reputation score might work....

Gary

Trithemius

08-03-2003, 02:09 PM

ne very interesting class I took a while back was "The Role

> of Satire in Literature." An excellent reading list for that

> class. That kind of thing reminds me of how feared a really

> good satire could be by those in power, and the ability of

> ridicule to destroy a person`s credibility and thus his

> authority and power. That`s the kind of thing that isn`t

> very well portrayed in gaming, I`m afraid, but I think

> something connected to a reputation score might work....

Has anyone had much of a look at the `Dynasties and Demagogues` book

from Atlas Game`s Penumbra line? (It really does sound like I work for

these guys doesn`t it?).

I have it, and it has some interesting "social feat" mechanics. I

believe the stuff was (and may still be) downloadable from the Atlas

Games website.

--

John Machin

(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)

-----------------------------------

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

kgauck

08-03-2003, 02:09 PM

ge -----

From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 5:40 AM

> One very interesting class I took a while back was "The Role of Satire in

> Literature." An excellent reading list for that class. That kind of

thing

> reminds me of how feared a really good satire could be by those in power,

> and the ability of ridicule to destroy a person`s credibility and thus his

> authority and power. That`s the kind of thing that isn`t very well

> portrayed in gaming, I`m afraid, but I think something connected to a

> reputation score might work....

Dynasties and Demagogues includes a system for argument in the political

arena including attacks on reputation. These can include different attacks

(with various modifiers) ranging from the back handed complement to rigorous

criticism to ridicule. Varoious defences also exist from the self effacing

responce to the logical defence to the accusation of hypocracy.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

RaspK_FOG

08-06-2003, 12:37 AM

What truly was out of place and completely illogical was the attitude you had in your DM keyboard bashing (as in tongue lashing): you say that it was illogical to have the drow appear after you killed the ranger and paladin? (This also applies to the player who made that post.)

Well, why did you care, anyway? They would lose their powers next day! You should simply run away and leave them taste some drow cuddling, am I wrong?

On the contrary, the idea of staying to bed (oh, the wits!) in a cavernous system with drow in it seems more fitting, and to top that, you found that time and place to slit their throats? Sheesh!

You also said, NinjaCorps, that only players who never had their characters threatened would find that inappropriate. I have lost characters to fellow players, some of them even good friends. I still find it a bad idea to try and kill their characters to save yours. If you can stop them, or convince them of their errors, that's fine.

NinjaCorps

08-06-2003, 03:21 AM

kgauck, you remind me of my DM. Your posting style is remarkably similar.

It seems that you were agreeing with my stance, and I thank you for your aid.

I understand why most players and DM's think it is a sin to kill PC's, but for the sake of realistic play it must be allowed.

Note:
I am surprised that this topic has yet to be removed, as it basic idea has been the target of many attacks. A few of those attacks have been made by those with such powers.

Whatever happens to this topic, just keep in mind that I gave you something to type about. Over 70 posts have been made from my words.

kgauck

08-06-2003, 05:15 AM

ge -----

From: "NinjaCorps" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 10:21 PM

> I understand why most players and DM`s think it is a sin to kill PC`s,

> but for the sake of realistic play it must be allowed.

Too much is allowed which is not realistic, too much is overlooked that is

realistic, and too much is disallowed despite its realism for this argument

to carry much weight, I am afraid. Realism by itself is not an argument for

inclusion in the game. For many folks, realism is fun. When it is fun,

include it. But much of realism is not. That`s why the injury system is so

terribly abstract. You never see someone`s off-hand attack penalized

because of this injury, or his spot checks to his right side penalized

because of another injury. Battle wounds are cumulative. Interestingly

enough, Ars Magica`s use of decripitude keeps track of the total scar

tissue, but even they don`t get as complex as reality would demand. For one

thing, its too complicated. For another people want their characters to

become more powerful, not less so. What constitutes fun, is therefore a

better guide than realism. Since some groups don`t like the idea of one

player, who is given the job of protecting the party (taking watch, alerting

about traps, &c) to be a fifth column. That`s reasonable. We have gathered

together to fight others, not ourselves. When that is the convention of the

group, its as much an element of realism is the conceit that by waving his

arms and uttering special words a wizard can make a magical effect occur.

Satisfying game play for a group requires knowing and adhearing to the

conventions of the game, almost all of which will be unrealistic.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

NinjaCorps

08-09-2003, 05:57 AM

Yes, most players play D&D, and others like it, to escape reality. I do not say this as if their lives are so meaningless that they must play another's life.

I think that all of us are simply unable to do those things that we are allowed to do within the game. Some of us are unable because we still "play" within the laws of our country, and others simply are unable no matter how much freedom they are given.

I think that it is those that are truely unable that enter a game hopeing to make a unreasonably powerful character. They are the ones that cause the rest of us to either go with the flow and make our characters the same, or convince the DM to make changes.

I like the rules of reality, and I know that I can defend myself. I was in the USMC, I learned karatte, a bit of boxing, a good bit of street, and enough anatomy.

The fact that I like the rules of reality makes me wish to keep those rules, but exchange the setting to one of a Medievil world. This is why I like Pendragon, even though I have not played it but once, and that was a few years ago.

I know that most DM's do not allow PC's to kill each other becuase it can cause hatred within the game, and a little of that hatred can even spill out into the real world. This can cause players to do everything from lie to with hold information. Some players might even go as far as turning other players against the target of thier scorn.

To RaspK_FOG:
I could see that happening, but it seems that the Drow was put on the PC by the DM as a punishment.

Why would the rogue care?
Let me think about that one.
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that they were supose to be his allies, or that a single PC would most likly still be picked on by the DM until he was dead.

For All:
It is far easier to go through one's self to use a military force rather than going through another. There is not sure way to get a country that you are not in controll of to do what you say. They may agree with your wishes, or then again they might not. This is something America has recently learned well.

kgauck

08-09-2003, 11:47 AM

ge -----

From: "NinjaCorps" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 12:57 AM

> I like the rules of reality, and I know that I can defend myself. I was

> in the USMC, I learned karatte, a bit of boxing, a good bit of street,

> and enough anatomy.

>

> The fact that I like the rules of reality makes me wish to keep those

> rules, but exchange the setting to one of a Medievil world. This is why

> I like Pendragon, even though I have not played it but once, and that

> was a few years ago.

So you would be happy if the number of characters who died of fever from

infected wounds killed more characters than all other sources combined, and

that most medical treatments were either useless or counter-productive?

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

Math

10-31-2003, 03:27 PM

I know that most DM's do not allow PC's to kill each other becuase it can cause hatred within the game, and a little of that hatred can even spill out into the real world. This can cause players to do everything from lie to with hold information. Some players might even go as far as turning other players against the target of thier scorn.

As a dungeon master i allow my player to kill each other BUT i got some house rule about this.
1st: Killing another player usualy come beacause a desagrment betwen some group member. i ask the player to stetle the mather out of game fisrt. because i dont whant my player stoping playing togther.
2nd: As a dungeon master i work realy hard to make a good story for my player. So another team member killing a palyer must have a realy good reason to do this. I must aprove the reason before the player past to the action. For exemple if two whant the same magical item. one whan to kill the other to get it ... steal it insted. In 5 years of DM i only had approved one reason.
3rd: A dead token on the killer head. I inform the player who whant to kill another that his victim may also like his character. if he is understand that, and he is willing to risk to lose is player too. i make a short scene where the killing took place. and make it realy difficult to the killer to suced. As each time a player die in my campaign i usualy tell the player that is character will die. i also ask him how he see the death of his character. I try to make the death as memorable as possible. This a game afther all and we play to have fun.

4th: I am aware that if i let player does evrything they whant, my game could get ruined. players who kill each other could ruin a campaign. for exemple if i had prepared a small quest involving that character. On the other hand if i alway say no to my player when they whant something in 2 week i will not even get a player to the next game session. I go by a case by case basis.

these rule of conduct a made known to the player at each new campaign. i dont ask them to be perfect little happy family but when a new player whan to get in my gamming group i try it for a session or two then i Ask the rest of the group to make a vote to see if they whant to invite him again. The vote is made once and if some of them change their mind, is too late for the rest of the campaign. i never say my wort even if the new candidate is the people is dislike the most on earth. that way I and my player have fun together.