Lycanthropes

[Lawgiver]

Since lycanthropes have come up in another thread...

There is an off hand reference in the rules:
"Many believe that the curse of lycanthropy is also one of Azrai's legacies to mankind;
a dark gift intended to strengthen the ranks of his followers."


Do you agree with this interpretation?
If not, where do you suppose they originated within Birthright? Are they part of the cursed blood of Azrai? Were the the product of a failed magic/realm spell? A failed alchemy experiment results in genetic mutation? A witch's curse? Some other phenomenon?

[Birthright-L]

I`m sorry I forgot who said it, but I like the idea they had about
Lycanthropes being originally the creation of the Lord of the Moon
Vorynn...and then perhaps many were corrupted by Azrai later.


Tony


----Original Message Follows----
From: Lawgiver <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Lawgiver wrote:
Since lycanthropes have come up in another thread...

Where do you suppose they originated within Birthright? Are they part of
the cursed blood of Azrai? Were the the product of a failed magic/realm
spell? A failed alchemy experiment results in genetic mutation? A witch`s
curse? Some other phenomenon?

__________________________________________________ _______________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Trithemius]

Lawgiver says:
> Where do you suppose they originated within Birthright? Are
> they part of the cursed blood of Azrai? Were the the product
> of a failed magic/realm spell? A failed alchemy experiment
> results in genetic mutation? A witch`s curse? Some other
> phenomenon?

The Shadow/Spirit/Other World is the source of change and weird magical
stuff I`d say that lycanthropy is probably based on some kind of
exposure to it, somewhere in their ancestry. Alternatively, I am quite
fond of using it as a magical curse as well.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[geeman]

At 04:44 PM 6/21/2003 +1200, John Machin wrote:

>The Shadow/Spirit/Other World is the source of change and weird magical
>stuff I`d say that lycanthropy is probably based on some kind of exposure
>to it, somewhere in their ancestry. Alternatively, I am quite fond of
>using it as a magical curse as well.

This is an interesting point, and one that I think people should keep in
mind for lycanthropes. They are in many ways a perversions; not really
human and the animal shapes they take on are often warped or hideous
versions of those animals in their natural state. The SW is generally the
source of such things in BR, and for lycanthropes there`s the connection
with the moon/night that references the plane of shadow. There`s also the
occasional reference to changelings and other beings from the SW that have
similar effects on humanity. Lycanthropes could be a sort of "evolved"
race of shadow creature. Would they have different powers or form in the
SW? Perhaps their bestial form is their natural state if they are from the
SW? That`d be an interesting interpretation.

Gary

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[destowe]

How about the only natural lycanthropys are direct desecndents of the worg riders at Mount Deismaar?

The absorbtion of the divine energy merged the two to become one creature. But there was two intellects and they fight for dominance. It would be similar to multiple personality. So they are rarely in hybrid form, as those would the ones able to reach a complete harmony of the mind.

Do not know why they are not ruling the goblin realms? Perhaps a new awnsheghlien needs to be made that is able to control them. (Something similar to Animal Affinity.)

Those that are of a race other than goblin are inflicted lycanthropes, and are the pawns of the Naturals. Perhaps spies, or shock troops, for the others that hold sway over a large portion of the Shadow World.


Fairly outlandish, but could make the goblins a more feared race. What with a shadowy organization, based on Ninja or the Thugee cult. Perhpaps even planning on liberating those goblins under the control of others (Gorgon for one.) And revenge on elves, for the time of slavery.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by destowe

How about the only natural lycanthropys are direct desecndents of the worg riders at Mount Deismaar?


"Natural lycanthropes" now there is an oxymoron in the making, like semi-boneless ham, military intelligence, etc.

[Birthright-L]

----- Original Message -----
From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Lycanthropes [2#1745]


> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1745
>
> irdeggman wrote:
>
[b]Originally posted by destowe
>
> How about the only natural lycanthropys are direct
desecndents of the worg riders at Mount Deismaar?
>
>
> "Natural lycanthropes" now there is an oxymoron in the making, like
semi-boneless ham, military intelligence, etc.
>


I`d suggest to those in this discussion actually Reading the Rjurik
information, as this suggests that lycanthropy isn`t a curse (just a `Fate`)
and is seen as a good thing much like the berzerk (bear skins) or ulfhednar
(wolf skins) of legend. That is lycanthropy isn`t necessarily as "D&D" sees
it, but is much more similar to how folklore of Earth sees it. Dangerous,
frightening, but not necessarily, evil.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Lawgiver]

Originally posted by destowe
How about the only natural lycanthropys are direct desecndents of the worg riders at Mount Deismaar?

I love it! I was trying to think of a "good" way to link it to either Deismaar or the Shadow World. Thanks for the idea!

[Lawgiver]

Originally posted by irdeggman
I`d suggest to those in this discussion actually Reading the Rjurik information, as this suggests that lycanthropy isn`t a curse (just a `Fate`) and is seen as a good thing much like the berzerk (bear skins) or ulfhednar (wolf skins) of legend. That is lycanthropy isn`t necessarily as "D&D" sees it, but is much more similar to how folklore of Earth sees it. Dangerous, frightening, but not necessarily, evil.


Specifically, what source of Rjurik material do you refer too?


Aside from Michael J. Fox's "Teen Wolf" movie in the 80s, I have yet to see any material that truly places lycanthropy in any sort of a positive light. The loss of power over one's will and the overwhelming desire to fulfill some animalistic instinct doesn't strike me a positive thing.

[Birthright-L]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawgiver" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: Lycanthropes [2#1745]


> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1745
>
> Lawgiver wrote:
>
[b]Originally posted by irdeggman
> I`d suggest to those in this discussion actually Reading the Rjurik
information, as this suggests that lycanthropy isn`t a curse (just a `Fate`)
and is seen as a good thing much like the berzerk (bear skins) or ulfhednar
(wolf skins) of legend. That is lycanthropy isn`t necessarily as "D&D"
sees it, but is much more similar to how folklore of Earth sees it.
Dangerous, frightening, but not necessarily, evil.
>
>
> Specifically, what source of Rjurik material do you refer too?
>

Under the lists of Dooms.
P76 of Rjurik Highlands "shapechanger" it doesn`t call them lycanthropes
and in fact says they use different rules, but that`s really more an
artifice of them trying to have Lycanthropes be a "shapeshifter" in 2E that
had certian limitations and traits which carried over from core D&D
structure.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[destowe]

Originally posted by irdeggman






Originally posted by destowe

How about the only natural lycanthropys are direct desecndents of the worg riders at Mount Deismaar?


"Natural lycanthropes" now there is an oxymoron in the making, like semi-boneless ham, military intelligence, etc.

It does sound strange, but p.219 of the 3.0 MM states:


Most lycanthropes are born, not made, and are sometimes called "natural lycanthropes" to distinguish them from those who have contracted lycanthropy("afflicted lycanthropes").


The sidebar of the new skill Control Shape has a blurb about natural lycanthropes instead having the feat Impoved Control Shape, which gives them full control over their shapeshifting abilities.

These are the dangerous ones. They can walk outside on the night of the full moon and stay humanoid.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sidhain" <sidhain@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:32 AM


> I`d suggest to those in this discussion actually Reading the Rjurik
> information, as this suggests that lycanthropy isn`t a curse (just a
`Fate`)
> and is seen as a good thing much like the berzerk (bear skins) or
ulfhednar
> (wolf skins) of legend. That is lycanthropy isn`t necessarily as "D&D"
sees
> it, but is much more similar to how folklore of Earth sees it. Dangerous,
> frightening, but not necessarily, evil.

I treat Rjurik shapechanging as much more druidical in inspiratuion than
lycanthropic. The dooms un uncontrolled, unpracticed, and more restrictive.
The class powers of rage and wildshape are controlled, practiced
manifestations of the same natural force.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Birthright-L

----- Original Message -----
From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Lycanthropes [2#1745]


> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1745
>
> irdeggman wrote:
>
[b]Originally posted by destowe
>
> How about the only natural lycanthropys are direct
desecndents of the worg riders at Mount Deismaar?
>
>
> "Natural lycanthropes" now there is an oxymoron in the making, like
semi-boneless ham, military intelligence, etc.
>


I`d suggest to those in this discussion actually Reading the Rjurik
information, as this suggests that lycanthropy isn`t a curse (just a `Fate`)
and is seen as a good thing much like the berzerk (bear skins) or ulfhednar
(wolf skins) of legend. That is lycanthropy isn`t necessarily as "D&D" sees
it, but is much more similar to how folklore of Earth sees it. Dangerous,
frightening, but not necessarily, evil.


And I'd suggest reading a little deeper - they are called Special Dooms and if you go back even farther to the Celts Campaign Sourcebook they are called Character Gifts. The Celtic Campaign Sourcebook also refers to a elvish type fey creature called "the Sidhe".

The Rjurik Highlands also states "First, while called "dooms" in keeping with Rjurik culture and outlook, they are probably more accurately referred to as "curses", since their presence does not necessarily lead to an afflicted character's destruction." And the entry under shapechanger (the reference you are obviously refering to) states "Rjurik shapechangers are not lycanthropes, and use entirely different rules." and "These individuals wander the land alone and are blessed (or, in the opinion of many, cursed) with the ability to transform into fearsome, wild creatures."

There is no exclusion of lycanthropy as existing and the special doom, shapechanger, is an entirely different thing.

destowe thanks for pointing out the sentence in the 3.0 MM, although it says "many" not "most" it is still an impotant note and a pretty major deviation from previous editions. It should be noted that it is still considered a magical disease (see PHB pg 42 and MM pg 219) but only "afflicted" lycanthropes can be cured of lycanthropy.

[Birthright-L]

>
> And I`d suggest reading a little deeper - they are called Special Dooms
and if you go back even farther to the Celts Campaign Sourcebook they are
called Character Gifts. The Celtic Campaign Sourcebook also refers to a
elvish type fey creature called "the Sidhe".
>

The Celts campaign has nothing to do with Birthright.


> The Rjurik Highlands also states "First, while called "dooms" in
keeping with Rjurik culture and outlook, they are probably more accurately
referred to as "curses", since their presence does not necessarily lead to
an afflicted character`s destruction." And the entry under shapechanger
(the reference you are obviously refering to) states "Rjurik shapechangers
are not lycanthropes, and use entirely different rules." and "These
individuals wander the land alone and are blessed (or, in the opinion of
many, cursed) with the ability to transform into fearsome, wild creatures."
>

It does also say that dooms are special abilities that are not always seen
as "Bad" depending on the doom in question.


> There is no exclusion of lycanthropy as existing and the special doom,
shapechanger, is an entirely different thing.


I disagree. D&D pigeon holes lycanthropy to mean something, that doesn`t
mean it means the same thing. If we want to draw on outcannon sources as you
did, In Jakandor, one may play a shapeshifter because one has ancestors who
are lycanthropes. It is not seen as a negative thing and though it works
differently it is still roughtly considered lycanthropy.


>

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sidhain" <sidhain@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 8:38 PM

> The Celts campaign has nothing to do with Birthright.

I think that all of Baker`s work on BR is dripping with Celtic flavor from
start to finish. One can certainly construct a campaign without reference
to its Celtic aspect, but arguing about the ideas behind the setting
requires reference to Celtic ideas. The Celtic campaign sourcebook is not a
bad place to go for gaming purposes.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Birthright-L]

There is a 4th level spell which can sort of cure Lycanthropy: Polymorph
Other. Simply change the "natural" werewolf into a Human. ;-)


Tony


----Original Message Follows----
From: irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

destowe thanks for pointing out the sentence in the 3.0 MM, although it says
"many" not "most" it is still an impotant note and a pretty major
deviation from previous editions. It should be noted that it is still
considered a magical disease (see PHB pg 42 and MM pg 219) but only
"afflicted" lycanthropes can be cured of lycanthropy.

__________________________________________________ _______________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campa...gn.asp?cid=3963 (http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963)

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[Birthright-L]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Gauck" <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Lycanthropes [2#1745]


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sidhain" <sidhain@EARTHLINK.NET>
> Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 8:38 PM
>
> > The Celts campaign has nothing to do with Birthright.
>
> I think that all of Baker`s work on BR is dripping with Celtic flavor from
> start to finish. One can certainly construct a campaign without reference
> to its Celtic aspect, but arguing about the ideas behind the setting
> requires reference to Celtic ideas. The Celtic campaign sourcebook is not
a
> bad place to go for gaming purposes.
>


It has heavily norse flavor too. I like the Celts book, I think it was a
fine source, I just don`t think "just becuase its similar" makes it anything
near canon for the setting.

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sidhain" <sidhain@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:39 AM


> It has heavily norse flavor too. I like the Celts book, I think it was a
> fine source, I just don`t think "just becuase its similar" makes it
anything
> near canon for the setting.

Irdeggman didn`t say it was canon, he made an observation that it was
illustrative. I think the Norse influence is largely confined to the
Rjurik. The Celtic influence is universal. The sidhe themselves are
strongly Celtic, as their name belies. Anuireans have a lot of Celitic
names, but its at least possible to argue this is only aesthetic. The
central struggle between the wilds and civilization (rule land up, sources
go down) is a romanticized view of the struggle of the Celts against the
Romans. Its obvious in the mental backround of the designers. I`m not
nearly so enamored of Celtic culture, so my campaign does not stress many of
these elements, but I can see them in the text.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Birthright-L
> The Rjurik Highlands also states "First, while called "dooms" in
keeping with Rjurik culture and outlook, they are probably more accurately
referred to as "curses", since their presence does not necessarily lead to
an afflicted character`s destruction." And the entry under shapechanger
(the reference you are obviously refering to) states "Rjurik shapechangers
are not lycanthropes, and use entirely different rules." and "These
individuals wander the land alone and are blessed (or, in the opinion of
many, cursed) with the ability to transform into fearsome, wild creatures."
>

It does also say that dooms are special abilities that are not always seen
as "Bad" depending on the doom in question.

This treatment doesn't exist any where in the cannon material. It does say "When they are at their lowest, the Rjurik are wont to carry on about their "special dooms" and the irressistable fate that binds them and drags them to their inevitable end." Typically these dooms are seen as a physical manifestation of their inevitable and predestined end, hence they are not generally seen as a "good thing" regardless of the benefit they provide.



> There is no exclusion of lycanthropy as existing and the special doom,
shapechanger, is an entirely different thing.


I disagree. D&D pigeon holes lycanthropy to mean something, that doesn`t
mean it means the same thing. If we want to draw on outcannon sources as you
did, In Jakandor, one may play a shapeshifter because one has ancestors who
are lycanthropes. It is not seen as a negative thing and though it works
differently it is still roughtly considered lycanthropy.


But on pg 89 of the BRRB it lists lycanthrope as an AD&D monster appearing in Cerilia. When this is combined with the sections that I have already quoted from the Rjurik Highlands it is fairly easy to make the deduction that lycanthropes and those who have the special doom "shapechange" coexist.

I agree with Kenneth on his interpretation of the special doom shapechange as being much more druidic in nature, even though it it much more restrictive (again as he pointed out).

The reason for my citing the Celtic Sourcebook was as a means of getting a TSR historical view of where Baker & co. came up with their interpretation of the Rjurik. It was not to infer it was BR cannon material but rather a very useful reference. The Celtic Sourcebook's treatment of bards and druids is almost identical to that of the Rjurik Highlands. I especially like the write up in the Celtic Sourcebook about the polytheism of the Celtic druids, this really helps explain why Cerilian druids are not druids per say but clerics in a polytheistic society that have a greater worship of Erik than the other deities.

So chill a little, all I was doing was pointing out my sources and defending myself from a perceived (while not necessarily true) attack on my lack of knowedge of the BR campaign material. Its time to back off (talking about myself) and be a little more "professional" in dealings on the board.:)

[geeman]

When it comes to lycanthropy I kind of like the idea that the various types
of shapeshifting that focus on animal forms exist on some sort of
scale. That is, the special dooms of the Rjurik sourcebook would be the
"mildest" type of shapeshifting, while inflicted lycanthropes would be more
severe--and more corrupting--while natural lycanthropy would be characters
who were born part of the were-race. It`s more productive, I think, and
probably easier to put on a scale of CR/ECL values to break up the powers
and capacities of the various types of shapeshifter/lycanthrope that way.

Gary

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman

When it comes to lycanthropy I kind of like the idea that the various types
of shapeshifting that focus on animal forms exist on some sort of
scale. That is, the special dooms of the Rjurik sourcebook would be the
"mildest" type of shapeshifting, while inflicted lycanthropes would be more
severe--and more corrupting--while natural lycanthropy would be characters
who were born part of the were-race. It`s more productive, I think, and
probably easier to put on a scale of CR/ECL values to break up the powers
and capacities of the various types of shapeshifter/lycanthrope that way.

Gary


Gary, as usual, very good rationale and usage of existing rulesets to have something make sense and still be executable.

I think (my opinion) that the rationale for the "natural" lycanthrope in 3.0 MM was to account for those that have traditionally had "societies", like wererats. It is difficult to have a society that is totally comprised of those who are only "afflicted".

[geeman]

At 03:02 PM 6/23/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>I think (my opinion) that the rationale for the "natural" lycanthrope in
>3.0 MM was to account for those that have traditionally had "societies",
>like wererats. It is difficult to have a society that is totally comprised
>of those who are only "afflicted".

Yeah, that makes some sense. Traditionally there are so many variants of
"shapeshifters" in fantasy and mythological literature that this kind of
thing could have a thousand variations. Shapeshifters are often spirit
creatures or some otherworldly being. After all, it only makes sense that
they can change their physical form if they aren`t particularly centered on
their bodies.

Gary

************************************************** **************************
The Birthright Homepage: http://www.birthright.net
Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
with UNSUB BIRTHRIGHT-L in the body of the message.