[BIRTHRIGHT] Future BHistory [Archive]

kgauck

06-17-2003, 03:58 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel McSorley" <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 11:05 AM

> Suppose that, relatively soon after this, the concept of the pike square
> was introduced to Anuirean military thought. This formation of
> highly-trained, professional soldiers dominated European warfare for quite
> some time,

In Flanders and Switzerland only. No other nation produced pike formations
that did anything special. They are in fact much like the warcard pikes.
Effective pikes are the result of specific social and political conditions.
The Brechts probabaly have effective pike. This would go far to explain the
importance of the burger and the irrelevance of the herren. In Anuire the
cavalry is still dominant, I and wouldn`t take effective pike any further
than Endier and Ilien, probabaly run by Brecht mercenaries.

> Suppose that, at the same time, the Mhor`s heir, Michael Mhoried, weds by
> arrangement Aubrae Avan, uniting two of the oldest houses of Anuire.

This kind of thing has to happen every generation. Who else do such people
marry?

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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kgauck

06-17-2003, 03:58 AM

DanMcSorley

06-17-2003, 04:38 AM

On Mon, 16 Jun 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > Suppose that, relatively soon after this, the concept of the pike square
> > was introduced to Anuirean military thought. This formation of
> > highly-trained, professional soldiers dominated European warfare for quite
> > some time,
>
> In Flanders and Switzerland only. No other nation produced pike formations
> that did anything special. They are in fact much like the warcard pikes.
> Effective pikes are the result of specific social and political conditions.
> The Brechts probabaly have effective pike. This would go far to explain the
> importance of the burger and the irrelevance of the herren. In Anuire the
> cavalry is still dominant, I and wouldn`t take effective pike any further
> than Endier and Ilien, probabaly run by Brecht mercenaries.
>
> > Suppose that, at the same time, the Mhor`s heir, Michael Mhoried, weds by
> > arrangement Aubrae Avan, uniting two of the oldest houses of Anuire.
>
> This kind of thing has to happen every generation. Who else do such people
> marry?

You`re no fun at all :) If you don`t want to play, just say so. A swing
in history, as described fictionally at least, needs some sort of inciting
incident or conditions. So what would you suggest that would be important
enough to alter Anuire`s historical course? Either to eventually reunite
the Empire, or form a new kingdom of some sort, or so provoke the Gorgon
that he came in and wiped out the whole mess?
--
Daniel McSorley

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geeman

06-17-2003, 05:43 AM

At 12:21 AM 6/17/2003 -0400, Daniel McSorley wrote:

>A swing in history, as described fictionally at least, needs some sort of
>inciting incident or conditions. So what would you suggest that would be
>important enough to alter Anuire`s historical course? Either to
>eventually reunite the Empire, or form a new kingdom of some sort, or so
>provoke the Gorgon that he came in and wiped out the whole mess?

If the Gorgon ever came in and tried to take over much more of Anuire that
might be enough to rally the fractured duchies (etc.) together into an
empire. Other things that might have an influence would be a large scale
invasion from Aduria or another continent (surely those civilizations that
pushed the five races to Cerilia aren`t all quiescent indefinitely) or a
massive plague a la the Black Death that totally reshapes the nature of
society.

Gary

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kgauck

06-17-2003, 09:39 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel McSorley" <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 11:21 PM

> So what would you suggest that would be important enough to alter
> Anuire`s historical course? Either to eventually reunite the Empire,
> or form a new kingdom of some sort, or so provoke the Gorgon
> that he came in and wiped out the whole mess?

One of the models of Renaissance I use is the return of Roman law, and the
declining interest in feudal law. In Anuire, that means a renewed interest
in the structure of the Empire. Of course the leading families have always
kept an eye on the struggle to gain the throne, but it was not a thing
liable to happen. With the renewed interest in Imperial law, and Imperial
institutions, the common people are nostalgic for the empire and there is
for the first time in a long time a real possibility of an actual emperor on
the throne. This greatly raises the stakes in the competition for the best
claim to the throne. The interest in provincial identity delcines (Mhorien,
Coeranian, Endieran) and claimants to the throne become popular figures as
the people stake an interest in the restoration of the old empire. Never
the less, the old feudal institutions are strong and will prove resistant to
genuine centralization. This raises the possibility of creating a
figurehead emperor from one of the smaller realms, so that the emperor is a
titular figure only. Factions play out and the move towards a restoration
and the end of a long interegnum could be the backdrop to a campaign, or its
central focus. As you might observe, I think I ideas and social structures
drive historical change, not technology.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Birthright-L

06-17-2003, 10:49 AM

A constant cause of suspension of disbeleif forme in fantasy worlds is the
lack of progression. I mean, over a thousand years, the political map of the
world changes beyond beleif. Of course, longer lived races like elves and
dwarfs can quiet things down a bit - but not as much as they do in most
worlds.

Marriage CAN definitely create great empires - just look at the Habsburgs.

I find the history of Anuire quite inconcevable, actually. The only way I
can motivate it to myself is if the Gorgon comes in and raids Anuirte to
oblivion every 30 years or something - which he does, according to some
sources.

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Magian

06-17-2003, 04:23 PM

As you might observe, I think I ideas and social structures
>drive historical change, not technology.
>
>Kenneth Gauck

I am guilty of the same.

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DanMcSorley

06-17-2003, 05:03 PM

On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> As you might observe, I think I ideas and social structures drive
> historical change, not technology.

That`s interesting, because I`ve thought that inventions tend to drive
social change. Triremes made Athens a democracy. The stirrup helped lead
to feudalism. The printing press knocked down monolithic religion in
western Europe. Guns did away with the aristocracy, first indirectly (by
making wealthy landowners less useful militarily & politically) and then
rather more directly :). But then, I`ve always been an inventions and
technology geek, so it`s probably inevitable I`d think this way.

--
Daniel McSorley

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Magian

06-17-2003, 05:30 PM

>Daniel McSorley wrote:

>
>That`s interesting, because I`ve thought that inventions tend to drive
>social change. Triremes made Athens a democracy.

Wasn`t it the philosophy of the times that made democracy popular?

>The stirrup helped lead
>to feudalism.

Without the idea of chivalry how far would the stirrup have gone?

>The printing press knocked down monolithic religion in
>western Europe.

OK, but it was the ideas that the presses brought to others that brought the
change.

>Guns did away with the aristocracy, first indirectly (by
>making wealthy landowners less useful militarily & politically) and then
>rather more directly :).

Political ideologies drove the persons with the guns to shoot at who they
shot at.

>But then, I`ve always been an inventions and
>technology geek, so it`s probably inevitable I`d think this way.
>

sure

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kgauck

06-17-2003, 06:04 PM

---- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Starfox" <stephen_starfox@YAHOO.SE>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 4:56 AM

> I find the history of Anuire quite inconcevable, actually. The only way I
> can motivate it to myself is if the Gorgon comes in and raids Anuirte to
> oblivion every 30 years or something - which he does, according to some
> sources.

Germany perpetuated itself as a realm of small states for hundreds of years.
Anuire probabaly has partable inheritance so that a generation after Avanil
and Alamie were united, the elder son would get Avanil and the younger would
get Alamie. Within realms, one son gets the big title, and other children
are either set up in other holdings, or they are made counts and get a
province plus estates in other places. Its one of the reasons that there is
not much land directly held by the regent. The fact that daughters appear
in the geneologies of the various dynasties makes it easy to both forge
theses alliances and yet maintain a sense that the current heir of realm x
is a direct decendent of founder x.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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kgauck

06-17-2003, 06:04 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel McSorley" <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 11:57 AM

> That`s interesting, because I`ve thought that inventions tend to drive
> social change.

We have a lot of examples where a technology arrived which the social order
couldn`t use so discarded. Printing presses were invented earlier, there
are several ancinet examples, but without a high literacy rate, no one
invests in such a device and it languishes as a curiousity. Had the
printing press come to Europe in a 15th century in which the church was
strong and robust, rather than divided and discredited, it probabaly would
have sealed Europe into a single faith permenantly. The arrival of the
press was reliant on social conditions that would accept a press (sufficient
literacy), and had an impact that intensified already existing social
structures, be that religious division (historical) or religious unity
(hypothetically).

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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DanMcSorley

06-17-2003, 06:04 PM

On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, The Magian wrote:
> >That`s interesting, because I`ve thought that inventions tend to drive
> >social change. Triremes made Athens a democracy.
>
> Wasn`t it the philosophy of the times that made democracy popular?

Chicken and the egg- the oarsmen of the triremes were numerous and drawn
from the non-landed classes of Greece, and they demanded and got political
power. Some philosophers of the times referred to them derisively as the
mob, following their whims, so in answer to your question, I don`t think
that was necessarily so.

> >The stirrup helped lead to feudalism.
>
> Without the idea of chivalry how far would the stirrup have gone?

The mongols conquored most of Asia and into eastern Europe with the
stirrup, their recurved bows, and no concept of chivalry. Chivalry
doesn`t necessarily follow from having horse-mounted warriors, though it
did in Europe, and it might have in the Mongol Empire had they lasted long
enough to get stable.

In Europe, chivalry developed after the mounted warrior became
predominant. When a stirrupped (is that a word? heh) horseman became the
most powerful military unit, social and political structures developed to
support him, giving him land and wealth to provide the horses and
expensive equipment he needed. The chivalric ideal came rather later.

> >The printing press knocked down monolithic religion in
> >western Europe.
>
> OK, but it was the ideas that the presses brought to others that brought
> the change.

The ideas had been around for quite a while. The Catholic church had no
shortage of detractors, from a few centuries AD on, but it wasn`t until
the means of disseminating the ideas came along that anything happened
about it.

> >Guns did away with the aristocracy, first indirectly (by
> >making wealthy landowners less useful militarily & politically) and then
> >rather more directly :).
>
> Political ideologies drove the persons with the guns to shoot at who
> they shot at.

When you have a weapon, and are oppressed, it`s not a political ideology
that makes you kill your oppressor.
--
Daniel McSorley

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DanMcSorley

06-17-2003, 06:49 PM

On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> We have a lot of examples where a technology arrived which the social order
> couldn`t use so discarded. Printing presses were invented earlier, there
> are several ancinet examples, but without a high literacy rate, no one
> invests in such a device and it languishes as a curiousity. Had the
> printing press come to Europe in a 15th century in which the church was
> strong and robust, rather than divided and discredited, it probabaly would
> have sealed Europe into a single faith permenantly. The arrival of the
> press was reliant on social conditions that would accept a press (sufficient
> literacy), and had an impact that intensified already existing social
> structures, be that religious division (historical) or religious unity
> (hypothetically).

So had the printing press not been widely adopted at that time, to aid
pamphleteers and reformists, do you think the schism in the church could
have healed?

I think maybe we don`t ascribe as much importance to technological
advances that solidify the then-current social order as to those which
accelerate change. Hell, I`m even having trouble coming up with an
example. Maybe the roman aqueducts, which were really important, but
`all` they did was strengthen roman power in the cities they already ruled
and could build to. So we don`t think of them as having been terribly
important.
--
Daniel McSorley

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geeman

06-17-2003, 07:25 PM

I don`t think there`s a difference between sociological and technological
advances the way it`s been presented. They may not always be in absolute
alignment with one another, but sociological change is easily viewed as "the
technology of society" and would then just fit in as a category of progress
along with metallurgy, agriculture or electronics. Some advances in
technological fields lead to social developments, some social developments
lead to technical advances. It`s a mutual push-pull just as other
categories of technology act on one another. Better metallurgy leads to
improved mining techniques which leads to better ore production which
improves metallurgy again. A slow rise in literacy creates the need for the
printing press which in turn improves literacy and increases the need for
even better printing presses. Drawing a distinction between technology and
social development is artificial, and doesn`t reflect anything meaningful
about society or technology. In fact, it disassociates the forces that are
in reality part of an interactive system.

Gary

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kgauck

06-17-2003, 08:37 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel McSorley" <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 12:33 PM

> Chicken and the egg- the oarsmen of the triremes were numerous and drawn
> from the non-landed classes of Greece, and they demanded and got political
> power. Some philosophers of the times referred to them derisively as the
> mob, following their whims, so in answer to your question, I don`t think
> that was necessarily so.

The institution of the Ekklesia (assembly) had to preceed the radical
democracy. The instritution of the phalanx, and the land tenure that
proceeded it, had to preceed the radical democracy in order to establish the
radical one. Radical democracy, or hoplite democracy for that matter,
require a political institution of a certain size, the city state or
smaller. Other societies invented all of the relevant technologies, why did
they not become radical democracies the way Athens did?

So its very reasonable to presume that the styles of governance of Endier,
Ilien, and Cariele would be different, and more assembly based than realms
like Avanil, Ghoere, or Alamie. Medieval cities also had town based
assemblies, largly dominated and coterminous with the guilds, since guild
membership was also generally a prerequisite to city citizenship (as opposed
to residence).

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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kgauck

06-17-2003, 08:48 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel McSorley" <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 1:40 PM

> So had the printing press not been widely adopted at that time, to aid
> pamphleteers and reformists, do you think the schism in the church could
> have healed?

The church was already broken, states were setting up their own Popes (the
Babylonian Captivity being only the most celebrated establishment of what
were many anti-popes), heresies were linking up with national, political,
and social cleavages, encouraging their durability. That someone would come
along to make a final break and declare independence from the broader church
was inevitable.

> I think maybe we don`t ascribe as much importance to technological
> advances that solidify the then-current social order as to those which
> accelerate change.

Pointing to the A-bomb and pronouncing that it changed warfare forever is
glamorous. Pointing to aqueducts and saying that urbanization was
facilitated by clean water and irrigation of rich soils isn`t so much.
Neither is pointing to the long scientific build-up to either A-bombs or
aqueducts and understanding that they are based on a culture of science,
scientific processes, an understanding of the periodic table, the concept of
the chain reaction, &c &c &c.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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kgauck

06-17-2003, 09:03 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Foss" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 2:06 PM

> I don`t think there`s a difference between sociological and technological
> advances the way it`s been presented. They may not always be in absolute
> alignment with one another, but sociological change is easily viewed as
"the
> technology of society" and would then just fit in as a category of
progress
> along with metallurgy, agriculture or electronics.

If you make certain assumptions, yes. Focusing on the technology itself can
give the impression that one might be a strong advocate that only technology
is relevant.

> Some advances in technological fields lead to social developments,
> some social developments lead to technical advances. It`s a mutual
> push-pull just as other categories of technology act on one another.

That`s because in fact technology is just another catagory of ideas, like
practices, values, and organizing principles. But its important to
distinguish the difference having rifles (Amerindians) and producing rifles
(settlers of European decent). Some games allow technology to move in a
vacuum. The Indians get the rifle technology and can produce riflemen.
That`s not what happened. the Indians got rifles and their traditional
hunters became much more effective in the killing business. If technology
alone is considered, we can`t explain these kinds of things. If we view
technology as a cultural process (metalurgy) connected to other cultural
elements (financing forges) and simply call this the iron age, thats fine.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Birthright-L

06-17-2003, 09:48 PM

From: "Kenneth Gauck" <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>

> Germany perpetuated itself as a realm of small states for hundreds of
years.
> Anuire probabaly has partable inheritance so that a generation after
Avanil
> and Alamie were united, the elder son would get Avanil and the younger
would
> get Alamie. Within realms, one son gets the big title, and other children
> are either set up in other holdings, or they are made counts and get a
> province plus estates in other places. Its one of the reasons that there
is
> not much land directly held by the regent. The fact that daughters appear
> in the geneologies of the various dynasties makes it easy to both forge
> theses alliances and yet maintain a sense that the current heir of realm x
> is a direct decendent of founder x.
>

Germany was never stabilized, but any of a huge numbers of pretenders to
power could have unified it at any point. That this was not done can be seen
as an on the European political stage - since states like France, England,
and Spain united. On the other hand, Italy and Scandinavia also failed to
unite (Scandinavia is still three countries at least as similar as north and
south Italy, and these were actually in union during much of the 14:the
century), so there are examples pointing both ways. Part of the problem for
Italy and Germany was that they WERE formally united in the Holy Roman
Empire - a nation so large and diverse that it couldn`t function.

In Birthright, the empire described in Roele`s day is far too similar to the
empire of "today" to be historically credible. We are never given any
details of Anuire in the period between Roele the last emperor and the
present. This is a very long period (800 years, if I remember right), and a
lot could/should happen in this time. This is the time from Charlemagne to
Louis XIV. It IS possible for a nation to fail to stabilize in such a time
frame, but I find it unlikely. Remember that Anuire is still and culturally
rather homogenous - it is equivalent to France, not to Europe. If the
ambition had been to unite Rjurik and Anuire into ONE empire, I believe the
situation would be closer to that of Germany.

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Trithemius

06-18-2003, 12:33 AM

Stephen Starfox says:
> In Birthright, the empire described in Roele`s day is far too
> similar to the empire of "today" to be historically credible.
> We are never given any details of Anuire in the period
> between Roele the last emperor and the present. This is a
> very long period (800 years, if I remember right), and a lot
> could/should happen in this time. This is the time from
> Charlemagne to Louis XIV. It IS possible for a nation to fail
> to stabilize in such a time frame, but I find it unlikely.
> Remember that Anuire is still and culturally rather
> homogenous - it is equivalent to France, not to Europe. If
> the ambition had been to unite Rjurik and Anuire into ONE
> empire, I believe the situation would be closer to that of Germany.

We should also recall that Anuire is subject to some cultural pressures
that historical Europe was not.

The Roele dynasty can claim, on far more solid grounds than any
historical monarch, to have a divine mandate. We should also remember
that the patron deity of the Anuireans is also the patron of monarchs.
This is likely to prompt Anuireans towards greater respect for and
obedience to the imperial `centre`.

(P.S. Hi everybody! ;))

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Magian

06-18-2003, 12:33 AM

>Daniel McSorley wrote:
>Chicken and the egg- the oarsmen of the triremes were numerous and drawn
>from the non-landed classes of Greece, and they demanded and got political
>power. Some philosophers of the times referred to them derisively as the
>mob, following their whims, so in answer to your question, I don`t think
>that was necessarily so.
>

I don`t that it is a case of the chicken and the egg. A man must have some
ideas before he acts, even to make a boat with oars or demand anything from
anyone. Your premise about the philosophers is true but let`s clarify that
it is limited to some as you said. As for saying it was necessarily so,
this is like saying it cannot be otherwise concluded and I did not say this,
for as far as I am concerned there is nothing in the realm of ideas that
cannot have more than one possible conclusion, including this argument.

>The mongols conquored most of Asia and into eastern Europe with the
>stirrup, their recurved bows, and no concept of chivalry. Chivalry
>doesn`t necessarily follow from having horse-mounted warriors, though it
>did in Europe, and it might have in the Mongol Empire had they lasted long
>enough to get stable.
>

Again with the necessarily so logic. I agree that chivalry is not necessary
to the cultural development in direct relation to the stirrup. However the
mongols had their own form of culture and honor system like all cultures.
It may not have been based on chivalry but it was their and the warrior was
the center of the theme.

>In Europe, chivalry developed after the mounted warrior became
>predominant. When a stirrupped (is that a word? heh) horseman became the
>most powerful military unit, social and political structures developed to
>support him, giving him land and wealth to provide the horses and
>expensive equipment he needed. The chivalric ideal came rather later.
>

After the success of the sitrrup? Okay but didn`t the romanticism keep the
stirrup alive in culture? Even if I yield that chivalry was an effect of
the stirrup, the stirrup didn`t come about a priori.

> > >The printing press knocked down monolithic religion in
> > >western Europe.
> >
> > OK, but it was the ideas that the presses brought to others that brought
> > the change.
>
>The ideas had been around for quite a while. The Catholic church had no
>shortage of detractors, from a few centuries AD on, but it wasn`t until
>the means of disseminating the ideas came along that anything happened
>about it.

Yes, but it was the ideas that made the change in the minds of the people.
The currency of how ideas get spread is a tool not a cause of change. The
press in its infancy originated as an idea.

>
>When you have a weapon, and are oppressed, it`s not a political ideology
>that makes you kill your oppressor.
>--

Yes it is, feminism, marksism, afro-centrism, dramatism, and cultural
critiques are forms of ideological criticism that all developed from
oppression. Through these ideologies a person can look at the world and as
a result change their view and become motivated to make change, e.g.
revolutionaries pointing guns at their oppressors.

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Magian

06-18-2003, 12:33 AM

>Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>Had the
>printing press come to Europe in a 15th century in which the church was
>strong and robust, rather than divided and discredited, it probabaly would
>have sealed Europe into a single faith permenantly.

That is possible. It is a provoking idea to think upon.

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Magian

06-18-2003, 12:33 AM

>Gary wrote:
>
>I don`t think there`s a difference between sociological and technological
>advances the way it`s been presented.

I do in the form of the argument thus far. We are arguing that either a
tool or an idea brings about change. Now certainly you have a point because
you touch upon the hole of both our arguments but that has not yet been
brought up by anyone thus far.

>They may not always be in absolute
>alignment with one another, but sociological change is easily viewed as
>"the
>technology of society" and would then just fit in as a category of progress
>along with metallurgy, agriculture or electronics.

I agree that tools and ideas are in relation to one another. As for an
absolute I would be wary to agree with it in any argument.

>Some advances in
>technological fields lead to social developments, some social developments
>lead to technical advances. It`s a mutual push-pull just as other
>categories of technology act on one another.

I am saying that it is the ideas of men that create them all. Tools,
technology, social developments, and even new ideas all come from the ideas
of men. That which we have no ideas about fall into the category of the
unknown and unseen, or unpercieved. Therefore how can we even talk about
anything that we have not yet first had an idea about?

>Better metallurgy leads to
>improved mining techniques which leads to better ore production which
>improves metallurgy again. A slow rise in literacy creates the need for
>the
>printing press which in turn improves literacy and increases the need for
>even better printing presses. Drawing a distinction between technology and
>social development is artificial, and doesn`t reflect anything meaningful
>about society or technology. In fact, it disassociates the forces that are
>in reality part of an interactive system.
>

All lines are artificial. However first before we can draw a line we must
have an idea of what we are drawing a line around or through or between.
Even the act of attempting to eliminate a conceptual line requires an idea
of what is delinated by this line. The entire argument you have just made
is artifical also. How you contemplate the world you live in through your
senses is through your ideas. Anything with logic whether it be valid,
invalid, sound, or unsound comes through ideas. I ask you, which can a man
live without and still be considered a man? His ideas or his tools?

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Magian

06-18-2003, 12:53 AM

>(P.S. Hi everybody! ;))
>
>--
>John Machin

I was wondering where you have been. I was actually about to ask. Ever
since you helped me with the Ars Magicka aging system I have been hooked on
that game line. Thanks

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ryancaveney

06-18-2003, 12:53 AM

On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, John Machin wrote:

> (P.S. Hi everybody! ;))

Welcome back! My plea for divine intervention appears to have paid off. =)

Ryan Caveney

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kgauck

06-18-2003, 01:24 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Starfox" <stephen_starfox@YAHOO.SE>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 4:39 PM

> Germany was never stabilized, but any of a huge numbers of pretenders to
> power could have unified it at any point. That this was not done can be
seen
> as an on the European political stage - since states like France, England,
> and Spain united.

France was united by the Hundred Years War. England was united the Norman
Conquest. Spain was united (it wasn`t completly united, except between 1580
and 1640) in the aftermath of the reconquesta. This suggests that for
Anuire to unite there needs to be a forign invader. The obvious invader is
the Gorgon, and as I have suggested at other times in the forum, that is
sufficient to explain why the Gorgon is quiet. He want to keep his profile
low enough to prevent a reaction that will reconstitute the empire.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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DanMcSorley

06-18-2003, 01:51 AM

On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> This suggests that for Anuire to unite there needs to be a forign
> invader. The obvious invader is the Gorgon, and as I have suggested at
> other times in the forum, that is sufficient to explain why the Gorgon
> is quiet. He want to keep his profile low enough to prevent a reaction
> that will reconstitute the empire.

It`s also possible that he gets everything he wants from the empire as it
is now. He could come in and conquor all these lands, and try to hold
them, but it would never work, there would be rebellions every time he
turned his back. As it is now, every person in Anuire, and some in
Brechtur, Khinasi, and Rjurik lands, fears him. That`s almost as good.
To a being as close to godhood as Raesene is, it`s probably like worship.
He probably even gets RP from it. A hundred and sixty thousand Avanilians
may respect and pay homage to Darian Avan, but a million and a half
Anuireans pray every night that tomorrow isn`t the day the Gorgon crosses
the Maesil.
--
Daniel McSorley

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Lawgiver

06-18-2003, 02:13 AM

The Old Kingdom of Egypt lasted nearly a thousand years (3100 B.C. - 2125 B.C.)
The Middle Kingdom of Egypt lasted nearly 600 years (2125 B.C. - 1550 B.C.)

Still their stability was largely related isolationism. A region like Anuire with transcontinental trade, a variety of language, culture and most importantly a vast array of religions would have great difficulty staying at such an equilibrium. If Anuire is a place of political volitility as outlined in the boxed set and novels, it would be a logical conclusion that after 800 years of chaos without a central authority one would barely be able to recognize the Empire as it was in the days of Roele.

DanMcSorley

06-18-2003, 04:48 AM

On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, John Machin wrote:
> The Roele dynasty can claim, on far more solid grounds than any
> historical monarch, to have a divine mandate. We should also remember
> that the patron deity of the Anuireans is also the patron of monarchs.
> This is likely to prompt Anuireans towards greater respect for and
> obedience to the imperial `centre`.

But the Roeles have all but died out, and the remaining claimants all have
about an even link to Roele blood between them. Which is not much, after
all this time. And the Anuireans have a condition that real aristocrats
didn`t- if there are none of the "main line" of kings left, there are
plenty of other people around that also have a proveable divine mandate.
That kind of leaves us back where we started.

Good to see you post, John. Are you back in NZ for the, er, winter? How
long has it been since you`ve seen a summer, anyway? :)
--
Daniel McSorley

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Peter Lubke

06-18-2003, 02:11 PM

On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 14:44, Daniel McSorley wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, John Machin wrote:
> > The Roele dynasty can claim, on far more solid grounds than any
> > historical monarch, to have a divine mandate. We should also remember
> > that the patron deity of the Anuireans is also the patron of monarchs.
> > This is likely to prompt Anuireans towards greater respect for and
> > obedience to the imperial `centre`.

It`s been, what 500+ years?, and the chamberlain?(s) have refused to
acknowledge ANY claim by any person in all that time. Obviously, legally
the laws of succession involve far more than some tenuous claim to some
shred of Roele bloodline. The TRUE Roele bloodline has been "missing"
since the time of Michael. There`s a mystery / opportunity for you. What
identifies the TRUE Roele line. How (or in fact is) the identification
of such a signal (blood ability) passed down. Why is arguably, one of
the most powerful blooded character on the Continent (and ALL his
forebears if any) content to play a waiting game in the wings as 2IC?

>
> But the Roeles have all but died out, and the remaining claimants all have
> about an even link to Roele blood between them. Which is not much, after
> all this time. And the Anuireans have a condition that real aristocrats
> didn`t- if there are none of the "main line" of kings left, there are
> plenty of other people around that also have a proveable divine mandate.
> That kind of leaves us back where we started.

Of course one possibility is: that the legally correct and true claimant
is still alive, (and living in the Crown).

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Birthright-L

06-18-2003, 04:19 PM

From: "Peter Lubke" <peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU>

> It`s been, what 500+ years?, and the chamberlain?(s) have refused to
> acknowledge ANY claim by any person in all that time. Obviously, legally
> the laws of succession involve far more than some tenuous claim to some
> shred of Roele bloodline. The TRUE Roele bloodline has been "missing"
> since the time of Michael. There`s a mystery / opportunity for you. What
> identifies the TRUE Roele line. How (or in fact is) the identification
> of such a signal (blood ability) passed down. Why is arguably, one of
> the most powerful blooded character on the Continent (and ALL his
> forebears if any) content to play a waiting game in the wings as 2IC?
>
>

And ths is the silly part.Having a bloodine survive for 800 years with noone
knowing about it worked in Tolkien, where Aragorn`s forbears survived in a
wasteland. there is no such isolated place for someone with a bloodline
strength of 80+ to hide in. And I don`t picture Anuire as quite that
conservative. Remember that Gondor felt no real need for a king. It was only
when the opportunity arose that the wanted Aragon back. And LoTR is a lot
more legend-like to me than Birthright.

But I guess it`s a matter of personal taste.

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ryancaveney

06-18-2003, 07:42 PM

On Wed, 18 Jun 2003, Stephen Starfox wrote:

> wasteland. there is no such isolated place for someone with a
> bloodline strength of 80+ to hide in.

Torova Temylatin, Thaele and Mieres strike me as the only appropriate
places -- far from the Anuirean heartland. The Giantdowns have the right
kind of desolation, but are just too close to the Gorgon to be safe.

Ryan Caveney

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ryancaveney

06-18-2003, 07:42 PM

On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Stephen Starfox wrote:

> I find the history of Anuire quite inconcevable, actually. The only
> way I can motivate it to myself is if the Gorgon comes in and raids
> Anuirte to oblivion every 30 years or something

Or the Sidhelien cast Death Plague rather a lot....

Ryan Caveney

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Birthright-L

06-18-2003, 07:52 PM

I attribute the low populations to plague, war, and famine. Even in the
European Middle-Ages the Plague was the most horrific thing to ever sweep
the world (killed more people than anything ever). Considering magic being
brought into the equation, I don`t have too much trouble conceding that
Cerilia`s population is pretty dang low.

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Stephen Starfox wrote:

> I find the history of Anuire quite inconcevable, actually. The only
> way I can motivate it to myself is if the Gorgon comes in and raids
> Anuirte to oblivion every 30 years or something

Or the Sidhelien cast Death Plague rather a lot....

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Green Knight

06-18-2003, 08:32 PM

After much intrigue and war, Anuire is divided into only a few powerful
kingdoms:

In the West Boeruine rules with an iron fist over the West Coast.

Avanil-Mhoried is the most powerful kingdom, but is morally divided as
the powerful families of the two realms jockey for power and physically
divided by another kingdom.

Osoerde/Ghoere/Alamie represents a martially inclined axis stretching
through the heart of Anuire.

In the South, the dynamic tripple alliance have become the core of a
bright kingdom covering the sourthern coast.

Etc.

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Green Knight

06-18-2003, 10:07 PM

In addition to The Plague (Black), ancient civilizations were constatly
threathened by lesser plagues.

Indeed, one might imagine that such things are not likely to happen in
Cerilia, where clerical realm magic is quite a bit more effective than
the prayers that were surely offered througout the plagues that swept
the Earth...

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Birthright-L

06-18-2003, 10:07 PM

But the plague is not really a medieval thing. It came at the end of the
period, and pretty much caused the end of the period. Plague was such a
massive shock to the system that things HAD to change to compensate. Plague
did not create stability - it was a great promoter of change!

From: "Anthony Edwards" <anthony_c_edwards@HOTMAIL.COM>

> I attribute the low populations to plague, war, and famine. Even in the
> European Middle-Ages the Plague was the most horrific thing to ever sweep
> the world (killed more people than anything ever). Considering magic
being
> brought into the equation, I don`t have too much trouble conceding that
> Cerilia`s population is pretty dang low.
>
> Tony
>

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Birthright-L

06-18-2003, 11:16 PM

From: "Bjørn Eian Sørgjerd" <bjorn.sorgjerd@C2I.NET>

> In addition to The Plague (Black), ancient civilizations were constatly
> threathened by lesser plagues.
>

Well, this is at least partly a myth.

There is only one sort of plague - though it has different strains and
manifests in different forms, it is all one disease. Black Plague is the
name of one pandemic, the first one, but also a common name for the
disease - for all practical purposes, the words black plague means exactly
the same as the word plague. Its merely a different name.

There were certainly other epidemics both before and after the plague - but
none nearly as severe. The plague struck everyone, everywhere. Normal
epidemics tended to strike famine - afflicted or otherwise weakened
populations.

So speaking of "other plagues" is a misnomer. Before the plague, there were
other epidemics - but these were not the plague. After the initial strike of
the plague, it became endemic, and could return to strike again at any
time - this is part of it`s terror. Other epidemics still continued to rage,
but their significance pales next to that of the plague itself.

I recommend the Swedish book "Svarta Döden" by Dick Harrison to you, Bjørn,
who can read Scandinavian languages. It is recent and sums up recent
research into the matter.

/Carl

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Trithemius

06-19-2003, 02:55 AM

Daniel McSorley says:
> But the Roeles have all but died out, and the remaining
> claimants all have about an even link to Roele blood between
> them. Which is not much, after all this time. And the
> Anuireans have a condition that real aristocrats
> didn`t- if there are none of the "main line" of kings left,
> there are plenty of other people around that also have a
> proveable divine mandate. That kind of leaves us back where
> we started.

That doesn`t change the fact that their patron is the god of kingship
and central rule. Anuireans are likely, in my mind, to be a lot more
"lawful" than us, historically.

I am really just arguing that Anuire has a "culture of central rule". I
think the idea that political fragmentation is inherent to Anuirean
society is an incorrect one. It is an abberration that all Anuireans
believe will be remedied at some point.

> Good to see you post, John. Are you back in NZ for the, er,
> winter? How long has it been since you`ve seen a summer, anyway? :)

I`ve stopped my annual migrations to the USA, since my family has taken
it upon themselves to move to Europe. I suppose that, once they get a
fixed address, I`ll begin my migrations in that direction ;)

New Zealand winter this year seems bright but cold, and the drop in the
lake levels near our hydroelectric facilities means that electricity
prices are going up. Brrr.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius

06-19-2003, 02:55 AM

The Magian says:
> I was wondering where you have been. I was actually about to
> ask. Ever since you helped me with the Ars Magicka aging
> system I have been hooked on that game line. Thanks

I`ve been busy with my university course-work.

I`m glad to hear that my relentless plugging of Ars Magica has had some
effect one someone ;)
I understand that the 4th Edition rules (the current edition) are freely
downloadable now, but that there is a 5th edition somewhere in the
works.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Lawgiver

06-19-2003, 03:08 AM

Originally posted by Birthright-L

And ths is the silly part.Having a bloodine survive for 800 years with noone
knowing about it worked in Tolkien, where Aragorn`s forbears survived in a
wasteland. there is no such isolated place for someone with a bloodline
strength of 80+ to hide in. And I don`t picture Anuire as quite that
conservative. Remember that Gondor felt no real need for a king. It was only
when the opportunity arose that the wanted Aragon back. And LoTR is a lot
more legend-like to me than Birthright.

But I guess it`s a matter of personal taste.

My personal campaign had the heir living with the elves. Time passes differently in their kingdoms. The bloodline survived by secrecy alone. Additionally, the reasoning behind Fhileraene's capture by the Gorgon was related to the heir. He was captured to try to force the elves to turn over the last remnant of the Roele bloodline.

Its pretty fitting in my opinion :P

Lawgiver

06-19-2003, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by Birthright-L
I attribute the low populations to plague, war, and famine. Even in the
European Middle-Ages the Plague was the most horrific thing to ever sweep
the world (killed more people than anything ever). Considering magic being
brought into the equation, I don`t have too much trouble conceding that
Cerilia`s population is pretty dang low.

Tony

"THE PLAGUES" killed an estimated 25 million people, roughly 1/3 of the population of Europe. 75 million people is hardly a comparable population value to Anuire.

Magian

06-19-2003, 04:17 AM

>From: John Machin <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
>I`ve been busy with my university course-work.

I understand, I am in school too studying for 3 degrees.

>I`m glad to hear that my relentless plugging of Ars Magica has had some
>effect one someone ;)
>I understand that the 4th Edition rules (the current edition) are freely
>downloadable now, but that there is a 5th edition somewhere in the
>works.

Could you send me the links when and if you find them, so that I may get
them? I must say for all those apparent history buffs on this list Ars
Magica seems to be a good source of RP opportunities for them.

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Birthright-L

06-19-2003, 04:17 AM

You seem to take great exception at my posts, so let me explain.

I`m not trying to be an authority....nor am I linking our world to a fantasy
one. I`m only putting out ideas; not topics that are intended for debate,
though that is fine too I guess. :-)

Along this topic, however, is the gaming tool of "Suspension of Disbelief"
that you (not you specifically) are striving for. The purpose of a game is
to have fun, but it is easier to have fun if it is easier to believe the
fantasy...ironically.

The reason that a campaign world will survive or fail is usually based
solely on this theory. I hate to say it, but the more "fantastic" a world
is, the less most players will enjoy it because it is so hard to relate to.

That is the only reason I try to emphasize some connection between game
world and real world...just enough to make the connection. Then I leave it
alone.

As for plague being part of any period, I`m afraid you are putting words in
my mouth. I simply said plague could be a reason....I didn`t say it was a
reason because it was a reason in THIS world. Again, I`m only making the
connection....not the rule.

If a plague does strike a nation, then with all the extra space they have
they really don`t need someone elses space. As a similarity: after the
Great Plague struck Europe, it entered a (relatively) peaceful period of
time.

Let me put a different spin on it. For connection: Holy Roman Empire. Very
fractious, didn`t really emerge as a true power despite its size. Finally
developed into several different nations only do to external pressure:
"Hmmmm....maybe we better become a real kingdom before our neighbors eat
us."

Cerilia....small "sub-continent" really. Not directly connected to another
landmass; Aduria counts, but is also fractionalized after the War of Shadow.
With no outside influences, there is no true need to unite: no migratory
nomads pressing the borders, only cultural ties binding any area together.
The Greek City-States never truly formed into a nation until absorbed by
external powers.

In Cerilia you also have the Awnsheigh which also cause disruption. The
Gorgon most certainly doesn`t want to see a united anything; much easier
prey when they are small. As old as he is, I`ve always played him as the
ultimate plotter. Most likely there isn`t a kingdom within many miles away
that doesn`t have his individual agents stirring the pot. Sure, he doesn`t
have a holding everywhere; but he doesn`t need one when suddenly the Baron
of Ghoere gets enough money to raise even more mercenaries and fight a
border war against Mhoried.....Gavin doesn`t suspect anything because his
wizard told him he made the money! So the Sword Mage does the Gorgon`s will
in exchange for a few ancient spells or an item or two; he doesn`t work for
the Gorgon, but nothing to stop him from trading (at a safe distance) with
him.

I could go on, but I hope you get the picture. If not: when you have a
nearly immortal force with his hand in everything, it is hard to get things
done when you are a short lived race that lives on average only fifty or so
years.

I can`t imagine myself that any part of Cerilia will emerge as a true
Kingdom until something is done about those pesky meddlers the
Awnsheigh.....so bring on the adventurers and get rid of them. ;-) That
was, after all things said, the intent of the Birthright world....was it
not?

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: Stephen Starfox <stephen_starfox@YAHOO.SE>

But the plague is not really a medieval thing. It came at the end of the
period, and pretty much caused the end of the period. Plague was such a
massive shock to the system that things HAD to change to compensate. Plague
did not create stability - it was a great promoter of change!

From: "Anthony Edwards" <anthony_c_edwards@HOTMAIL.COM>

> I attribute the low populations to plague, war, and famine. Even in the
> European Middle-Ages the Plague was the most horrific thing to ever sweep
> the world (killed more people than anything ever). Considering magic
being
> brought into the equation, I don`t have too much trouble conceding that
> Cerilia`s population is pretty dang low.
>
> Tony

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DanMcSorley

06-19-2003, 04:17 AM

On Thu, 19 Jun 2003, Lawgiver wrote:
> Lawgiver wrote:
>
Originally posted by Birthright-L
> I attribute the low populations to plague, war, and famine. Even in the
> European Middle-Ages the Plague was the most horrific thing to ever sweep
> the world (killed more people than anything ever). Considering magic being
> brought into the equation, I don`t have too much trouble conceding that
> Cerilia`s population is pretty dang low.
>
>
>
> "THE PLAGUES" killed an estimated 25 million people, roughly 1/3 of
> the population of Europe. 75 million people is hardly a comparable
> population value to Anuire.

France is about the right size. In 1340, the population of France was
about 24 million. The bubonic plague first reached western europe in
1347. It killed about a third of the population, which would leave about
16 million in France. I`ve tallied the provinces that comprise Anuire
before, they come out about 1.6 million people, I believe. Even if this
is supposed to be some kind of post-devestation Anuire, it`s way too low.
And there`s nothing in anything published to suggest that Anuire or
Cerilia was recently devestated.

The game-design explanation for this is that they wanted provinces to
start low so people could rule them up. One way to reconcile it with some
form of reality is to go with the reasoning that the provinces of Cerilia
really are all at their max population value, and the number in the
province rating represents how much the province owner can expect taxes
and fealty from. This also explains how it`s possible to rule them up so
fast, without the little Sim-Anuireans breeding like rapidly-maturing
rabbits.

I prefer to just adjust the province ratings up, and remove the Ruling of
provinces from the actions allowed to players. Population will go up and
down in its own good time, and they should just concern themselves with
their holdings.
--
Daniel McSorley

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Birthright-L

06-19-2003, 04:40 AM

I liked what someone else mentioned about Magical Plague though. It is an
automatic thing that would just sweep entire provinces and nations. I`ve
also considered that, in comparison to earthly churches, the churches of
Cerilia would be more concerned about their prestige and power than the
actual well being of the masses. Not allowing for modern thought on the
topic, most churches were honestly more temporal than spiritual by a LONG
shot. How much more so when that church actually receives direct influence
through Commune spells! Holy wars were fought for less reason than a god
saying: "Go forth and kill my enemies to preserve my people!"

Because there isn`t even a unifying religion in any area (even if one faith
is more predominant), this is additional cause for regions to remain torn
and without unity.

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: Bjørn Eian Sørgjerd <bjorn.sorgjerd@C2I.NET>

In addition to The Plague (Black), ancient civilizations were constatly
threathened by lesser plagues.

Indeed, one might imagine that such things are not likely to happen in
Cerilia, where clerical realm magic is quite a bit more effective than
the prayers that were surely offered througout the plagues that swept
the Earth...

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Birthright-L

06-19-2003, 04:40 AM

I didn`t mention numbers....only the plague itself.

Even had I mentioned numbers, why would it not be a good comparison? If
Anuire suddenly lost 33% of its population, you don`t think it would have a
drastic effect?

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: Lawgiver <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Lawgiver wrote:

Originally posted by Birthright-L
I attribute the low populations to plague, war, and famine.
Even in the
European Middle-Ages the Plague was the most horrific thing to ever sweep
the world (killed more people than anything ever). Considering magic being
brought into the equation, I don`t have too much trouble conceding that
Cerilia`s population is pretty dang low.

Tony

"THE PLAGUES" killed an estimated 25 million people, roughly 1/3 of the
population of Europe. 75 million people is hardly a comparable population
value to Anuire.

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Barliman

06-19-2003, 04:57 AM

([_]

Lawgiver

06-19-2003, 04:59 AM

I didn't mean to aid the digression into the plague discussion. I apologize.

The issue isn't the focus on the % of loss, but rather the starting and ending popluation of France relative to the starting and ending population of Anuire. The higher the population the more "minds" you have to develop new technology, the larger the workforce you have to fuel an economy, army, etc., the greater the tax base, the greater the diversity of sub-cultures. Anuire is roughly 6% the size of France, it obviously would not develop as quickly.

Birthright-L

06-19-2003, 08:46 AM

> You seem to take great exception at my posts, so let me explain.
>

I love debate. When I see something I don`t agree with, or just think that I
can put a new and interesting angle on, I pounce. This is not because I
dislike the people I debate with - quite the opposite in fact! After all, if
it were not for you, I would have fewer people to debate with!

I agree with you in principle - fun is king, and "realism" matters in that
it can detract/add to fun.

The first thing to consider is genre. In epic "Tolkienesque" fantasy,
thousands of years routinely pass without much event. I often take exception
to it, and particularly in a chaotic world like Birthright. In a more
"realistic" genre, only empires are stable - interregnum periods are
inherently unstable. No royal claim can survive for 800 years separated from
it`s power. It`s like the idea that a revealed scion of Charlemagne could
assume the throne of France in the 17:the century.

What is right in some genres, is wrong in others. Each of us must decide
what to include in the genre that we use for our Birthright games - there is
really no right or wrong here.

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r_johny

06-19-2003, 07:31 PM

> It`s been, what 500+ years?, and the chamberlain?(s) have refused to
> acknowledge ANY claim by any person in all that time. Obviously, legally
> the laws of succession involve far more than some tenuous claim to some
> shred of Roele bloodline. The TRUE Roele bloodline has been "missing"
> since the time of Michael. There`s a mystery / opportunity for you. What
> identifies the TRUE Roele line. How (or in fact is) the identification
> of such a signal (blood ability) passed down. Why is arguably, one of
> the most powerful blooded character on the Continent (and ALL his
> forebears if any) content to play a waiting game in the wings as 2IC?
>
>

And ths is the silly part.Having a bloodine survive for 800 years with noone
knowing about it worked in Tolkien, where Aragorn`s forbears survived in a
wasteland. there is no such isolated place for someone with a bloodline
strength of 80+ to hide in. And I don`t picture Anuire as quite that
conservative. Remember that Gondor felt no real need for a king. It was only
when the opportunity arose that the wanted Aragon back. And LoTR is a lot
more legend-like to me than Birthright.

But I guess it`s a matter of personal taste.
------------------------

i seem to remember that in both editions you can actually store your blood line in an object or section of the ground, Roele's descendents could easily have died out long ago while the blood abilities were stored by an heir for someone worthy of them.

in fact it wouldn't be too unlikely for the chamberlins to know about this and simply feel that no worthy contenders have arrived

Trithemius

06-19-2003, 10:40 PM

Tony says:
> Because there isn`t even a unifying religion in any area
> (even if one faith is more predominant), this is additional
> cause for regions to remain torn and without unity.

I just don`t agree with you about this, I am sorry.
Religious disunity is a symptom of the current (i.e. 500 year long)
crisis in Anuire, not a cause of it. The Imperial Temple acted a
pantheonistic central church for 1,000 or so years before Michael Roele
went one-on-one with old Stonebutt.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius

06-19-2003, 10:40 PM

Daniel McSorley says:
> France is about the right size...
<snip!>
> I prefer to just adjust the province ratings up, and remove
> the Ruling of provinces from the actions allowed to players.
> Population will go up and down in its own good time, and they
> should just concern themselves with their holdings.

Lyndon Baugh once mentioned to me how it might be a good idea to "scale"
all the provinces (and the ground scale) up a bit (about 10x maybe?).
This would make Cerilia a bit bigger and provide for larger kingdoms
(and thus larger armies). It would also have the useful side effect of
allowing discrete climates to exist on the "continent".

Just an aside :)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius

06-19-2003, 10:40 PM

The Magian says:
> I understand, I am in school too studying for 3 degrees.

Three? Wow.

> Could you send me the links when and if you find them, so
> that I may get them? I must say for all those apparent
> history buffs on this list Ars Magica seems to be a good
> source of RP opportunities for them.

As many of you will have heard me say before, Ars Magica is a great game
:)
The following website will tell you about the game itself (and provide
some links to useful places like Project Redcap):
http://www.atlas-games.com/arsmagica/index.html

This address is where you can download a .PDF of the 4th Edition
rulebook:
http://www.atlas-games.com/arsmagica/free/index.html

Enjoy!

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Birthright-L

06-19-2003, 11:24 PM

No need to apologize....I wasn`t quoting scripture or canon.....just giving
my opinion.

Although I must say that again someone is putting words in my mouth.

I didn`t say that there was NEVER a unifying religion in Anuire, I said only
that currently there isn`t one. The fractionization of the Imperial Temple
happened.....the current fact is that since there is now not a single common
religion among the people of Anuire it contributes to the continued
divisions found in the land. Again, that is all I am saying.....no hint at
anything else, only that alone.

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: John Machin <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>

Tony says:
> Because there isn`t even a unifying religion in any area
> (even if one faith is more predominant), this is additional
> cause for regions to remain torn and without unity.

I just don`t agree with you about this, I am sorry.
Religious disunity is a symptom of the current (i.e. 500 year long)
crisis in Anuire, not a cause of it. The Imperial Temple acted a
pantheonistic central church for 1,000 or so years before Michael Roele
went one-on-one with old Stonebutt.

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Kalien

06-20-2003, 12:09 AM

John Machin says:
> Lyndon Baugh once mentioned to me how it might be a good idea to
> "scale" all the provinces (and the ground scale) up a bit (about 10x
> maybe?). This would make Cerilia a bit bigger and provide for larger
> kingdoms (and thus larger armies). It would also have the useful side
> effect of allowing discrete climates to exist on the "continent".

I have to admit that I hadn't thought of expanding the size of Cerilia in terms of land area. ;)

For the game that I'm currently planning I have altered population levels within provinces. By that I don't mean I've turned (2/3) provinces into (3/2) or (4/1) provinces, but that I've changed the number of people living in a (2/3) province. I looked at medieval demographics to get average populations per square mile and then applied those numbers of Anuire (which is where my game will be based).

The end result was that larger domains such as Avanil and Ghoere ended up with approximately quarter of a million citizens (I don't have the exact numbers with me, so this is a very loose approximation). Anuire itself ended up with more than 2 million people. One problem I encountered was that I ended up with an arithmetic population progression by province size rather than a geometric one. Mind you, this is a bit beside the point.

John can probably supply figures more easily than I can regarding mobilisation of citizenry into armies in the late Middle Ages expressed in terms of percentage of total population (want to help me out John?), but with about 250,000 subjects I imagine Avanil and Ghoere could field significantly larger armies than they do in Ruins of Empire. Depending on how much of the population is mobilised, we might then have to look at how many soldiers are in each unit; possibly multiplying the number by as much as 5 or more.

kgauck

06-20-2003, 01:01 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kalien" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:09 PM

> John can probably supply figures more easily than I can regarding
> mobilisation of citizenry into armies in the late Middle Ages expressed
> in terms of percentage of total population

France, with 20 million people rarely fielded more than 20,000 men. The
20,000 figure appears again and again for various wars in the late medieval
period. Occasionally she raised 50,000 man armies, but these were really
the old 20,000 man armies with 30,000 levies tagging along. That`s one
tenth of one percent. Not so bad really when you eliminate the young
(half), the women (half), the sick (a fair number), the old (enough), the
exempt and other non-fighting catagories.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Birthright-L

06-20-2003, 01:01 AM

You could figure that at a sizable standing army, a nation during the
Medieval Period may have had 2% of the population as a standing force out of
your number of 250,000. So that leaves you right at 5000 soldiers total.
In true wartime, as much as 5% of a population could reasonably be levied
without too much strain on the economy of a nation, so that would give you
about 12,500 soldiers. Now mind you this: that includes forces needed at
home and not just those that can run scampering off to conquer the enemy.

In my fantasy games though, I always picture a young world that is only
loosely related to our real past. In this sort of world, there truly aren`t
so very many people and nations are only lightly populated with areas in
between that "you just shouldn`t go into" where the monsters make their
homes.

This isn`t a very realistic view, but it is a fantasy game after all....so
if we are talking about fireballs and teleporting, we really don`t have to
be too "realistic".....only just enough to obtain a level of familiarity.

Of course since the coming of the Andu to the lands they currently inhabit,
the forests have been nearly clear cut from the south all the way to the
Stonecrowns....so there almost would HAVE to be more people than exist as
detailed in the original game set.

I sort of like the idea of expanding the size of the landmass though, I
always thought it was awfully small to begin with. Of course, this only
brings into question again about just how many people there are in Anuire.
Eventually I just settled in for the size as it was made, and didn`t worry
to much about the how-to and why-for of it all.

Just my opinion though.

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: Kalien <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Kalien wrote:
John Machin says:
> Lyndon Baugh once mentioned to me how it might be a good idea to
> "scale" all the provinces (and the ground scale) up a bit (about 10x
> maybe?). This would make Cerilia a bit bigger and provide for larger
> kingdoms (and thus larger armies). It would also have the useful side
> effect of allowing discrete climates to exist on the "continent".

I have to admit that I hadn`t thought of expanding the size of Cerilia in
terms of land area. ;)

For the game that I`m currently planning I have altered population levels
within provinces. By that I don`t mean I`ve turned (2/3) provinces into
(3/2) or (4/1) provinces, but that I`ve changed the number of people living
in a (2/3) province. I looked at medieval demographics to get average
populations per square mile and then applied those numbers of Anuire (which
is where my game will be based).

The end result was that larger domains such as Avanil and Ghoere ended up
with approximately quarter of a million citizens (I don`t have the exact
numbers with me, so this is a very loose approximation). Anuire itself
ended up with more than 2 million people. One problem I encountered was
that I ended up with an arithmetic population progression by province size
rather than a geometric one. Mind you, this is a bit beside the point.

John can probably supply figures more easily than I can regarding
mobilisation of citizenry into armies in the late Middle Ages expressed in
terms of percentage of total population (want to help me out John?), but
with about 250,000 subjects I imagine Avanil and Ghoere could field
significantly larger armies than they do in Ruins of Empire. Depending on
how much of the population is mobilised, we might then have to look at how
many soldiers are in each unit; possibly multiplying the number by as much
as 5 or more.

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Lawgiver

06-20-2003, 02:27 AM

France's current population: 59,765,983 (July 2002 est.)

Age structure:
0-14 years: 18.5% (male 5,675,269; female 5,401,661)
15-64 years: 65.2% (male 19,503,556; female 19,479,646)
65 years and over: 16.3% (male 3,948,433; female 5,757,418)

France's Current standing army numbers roughly 350,000 troops. Which is only 0.59% of the total population

Military manpower - availability (males age 15-49): 14,534,480 = 24.32% of the total population

Military manpower - fit for military service: 12,092,938 = 20.23% of the total population

If you apply the same estimates to the 250,000 number France would have:
-1,475 standing troops
-60,800 males of the age of service
-50,575 males actually fit for service

-------------------------------------------------------------

Using Ghoere's provincial levels as outlined in the RoE it has a population of roughly 163,000.
Using the percentages of France above it should have:
-962 standing troops
-39,642 males of the age of service
-32,975 males actually fit for service

Actual current military in RoE = 3,600 (assuming the 200 troops per unit)
Proportionally its military is roughly 4 times that of France's current army.
They could potentially raise their army to almost 10 times its current status but they would have to virtually deplete all males fit for service in their kingdom.

Trithemius

06-20-2003, 02:53 AM

Kenneth says:
> France, with 20 million people rarely fielded more than
> 20,000 men. The 20,000 figure appears again and again for
> various wars in the late medieval period. Occasionally she
> raised 50,000 man armies, but these were really the old
> 20,000 man armies with 30,000 levies tagging along. That`s
> one tenth of one percent. Not so bad really when you
> eliminate the young (half), the women (half), the sick (a
> fair number), the old (enough), the exempt and other
> non-fighting catagories.

See. I told you he was handy ;)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius

06-20-2003, 02:53 AM

Kalien says:
> For the game that I`m currently planning I have altered
> population levels within provinces. By that I don`t mean
> I`ve turned (2/3) provinces into (3/2) or (4/1) provinces,
> but that I`ve changed the number of people living in a (2/3)
> province. I looked at medieval demographics to get average
> populations per square mile and then applied those numbers of
> Anuire (which is where my game will be based).

Good idea ;)

> John can probably supply figures more easily than I can
> regarding mobilisation of citizenry into armies in the late
> Middle Ages expressed in terms of percentage of total
> population (want to help me out John?), but with about
> 250,000 subjects I imagine Avanil and Ghoere could field
> significantly larger armies than they do in Ruins of Empire.
> Depending on how much of the population is mobilised, we
> might then have to look at how many soldiers are in each
> unit; possibly multiplying the number by as much as 5 or more.

Probably I could hit the books. Kenneth is more likely to immediately
have the relevant data to hand. He`s always surprising me with stuff
like that :) (Hi Kenneth ;))

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Kalien

06-20-2003, 03:15 AM

Originally posted by Trithemius

Kalien says:
> I looked at medieval demographics to get average
> populations per square mile and then applied those numbers of
> Anuire (which is where my game will be based).

Good idea ;)

A little research revealed that the average population density for a medieval country was from 30 per square mile (for countries with lots of rocks, lots of rain, and lots of ice - or a slave-driving Mad King) to a limit of about 120 people per square mile, for countries with rich soil and favorable seasons. There are many factors that determine the population density of a land, but none as important as arable land and climate. If food will grow, so will peasants.

Medieval France tops the list with an estimated 14th-century density of 105 people/sq. mile. The French were blessed with an abundance of arable countryside, waiting to be farmed. Modern France has more than twice this population density. Germany, with a slightly less perfect climate and a lower percentage of arable land averaged 87 people per square mile. Italy was similar (lots of hills and rocky areas) with 86. The British Isles were the least populous with only 42 people per square mile, most of them clustered in the southern half of the isles.

After trying to find simple geometric calculations (calculus not being my strong point) I settled on a simple arithmetric progression for determining population density based on RoE province sizes. I don't have access to my calculations at present, but I think in the end I more or less said Province Level 1 equated to population density of 30 people sq. mile. For each increase in Province level add +10 people sq. mile. (There was a little more to it than that, but I don't recall just what).

After that I looked at the map and made an arbitary estimation of the average Anuirean province size in terms of land mass and multiplied it by population density to get total population of any given domain.

Trithemius

06-20-2003, 03:28 AM

Lawgiver says:
> France`s current population: 59,765,983 (July 2002 est.)

At the risk of being a jerk - is the current data on French population
and military really relevant to a barely-post-feudal society like
Anuire?

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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DanMcSorley

06-20-2003, 03:28 AM

On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, John Machin wrote:
> John can probably supply figures more easily than I can
> regarding mobilisation of citizenry into armies in the late
> Middle Ages expressed in terms of percentage of total
> population (want to help me out John?), but with about
> 250,000 subjects I imagine Avanil and Ghoere could field
> significantly larger armies than they do in Ruins of Empire.
> Depending on how much of the population is mobilised, we
> might then have to look at how many soldiers are in each
> unit; possibly multiplying the number by as much as 5 or more.

I`m seeing numbers like 20,000 for France in 1451, when the population was
20 or 21 million. In 1610, 68,500 troops, population about the same.
For the Netherlands in 1607, which had a population of around 1.5 million,
they claimed 51,000. So by the 17th century, at least, army size wasn`t
tied very tightly to population, if the Netherlands could compete with
France, which was 15x its size.

If we go with the 1451 numbers for France, then something like 1/1000 of
the population would be at arms in the late medieval period. For a
kingdom of 250,000, that a little more than a war card unit. If anything,
Avanil and Ghoere are grossly overpowered in army size.

The book I`m looking at says that the 20,000 figure was a defensive army,
with levies included I guess. The amount of troops France had in its
standing army was more like 8000.
--
Daniel McSorley

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Birthright-L

06-20-2003, 04:03 AM

You are only counting the national military right? Not including Police
Forces, protective services, etc.

Those numbers would bring the "standing military" up a bit; perhaps not as
close as the four times as many in your example true. Technology though has
dramatically reduced the needed manpower for a military machine to
effectively defend a nation or attack another nation.

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: Lawgiver <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

Lawgiver wrote:
France`s current population: 59,765,983 (July 2002 est.)

Age structure:
0-14 years: 18.5% (male 5,675,269; female 5,401,661)
15-64 years: 65.2% (male 19,503,556; female 19,479,646)
65 years and over: 16.3% (male 3,948,433; female 5,757,418)

France`s Current standing army numbers roughly 350,000 troops. Which is
only 0.59% of the total population

Military manpower - availability (males age 15-49): 14,534,480 =
24.32% of the total population

Military manpower - fit for military service: 12,092,938 = 20.23%
of the total population

If you apply the same estimates to the 250,000 number France would have:
-1,475 standing troops
-60,800 males of the age of service
-50,575 males actually fit for service

Using Ghoere`s provincial levels as outlined in the RoE it has a population
of roughly 163,000.
Using the percentages of France above it should have:
-962 standing troops
-39,642 males of the age of service
-32,975 males actually fit for service

Actual current military in RoE = 3,600 (assuming the 200 troops per unit)
Proportionally its military is roughly 4 times that of France`s current
army.

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DanMcSorley

06-20-2003, 04:03 AM

On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Kalien wrote:
> After trying to find simple geometric calculations (calculus not being
> my strong point) I settled on a simple arithmetric progression for
> determining population density based on RoE province sizes. I don`t
> have access to my calculations at present, but I think in the end I more
> or less said Province Level 1 equated to population density of 30 people
> sq. mile. For each increase in Province level add +10 people sq. mile.
> (There was a little more to it than that, but I don`t recall just
> what).

That seems off to me, especially if you accept the level-squared
estimation of population (where population = level^2 * 1000). I looked at
this kind of thing a while back, here`s what I came up with.

Provinces are described as being 30 or 40 miles square. That`s close
enough to 1000 square miles, which means the population density is
level^2. To get medieval-France-like numbers, you need a lot more
provinces of level 10 or higher, basically. Rjurik should pull in around
province (6) average (similar to medieval england), Vosgaard a little
lower because the land sucks, Brechtur competitive with Anuire, and
Khinasi will vary widely from desert to fertile forest river basin.
--
Daniel McSorley

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Kalien

06-20-2003, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by DanMcSorley
Provinces are described as being 30 or 40 miles square. That`s close
enough to 1000 square miles, which means the population density is
level^2. To get medieval-France-like numbers, you need a lot more
provinces of level 10 or higher, basically. Rjurik should pull in around
province (6) average (similar to medieval england), Vosgaard a little
lower because the land sucks, Brechtur competitive with Anuire, and
Khinasi will vary widely from desert to fertile forest river basin.

Yeah, I know it's not perfect. :)

The historical figures I found came with the priviso that all arable land was farmed, that there was no wasted space or land left uncultivated. In fantasy settings this does not necessarily hold true as we have areas that the populace won't go near or settle due to a number of factors missing from real world consideration. There might be an area that could be farmed but which lies near a Shadow World portal, it might be vulnerable to monster raids, the gheallie Sidhe, awnsheghlien depredations, etc. These could explain why population density is lower than real world comparisons.

If Rjurik is similar to England in terms of population density then we'd expect to see lots of size 2 provinces with some size 1 and size 3 provinces, but with very few higher than that. A quick look at the map shows that this isn't too far off. A medieval France-like province would come out at about a level 8 province (pop. density around 100 sq. mile). Obviously, provinces this size are lacking throughout Cerilia so the numbers aren't perfect. A medieval Germany or Italy-like province would come out at about a level 6 or 7 province (pop. density 80 - 90 sq. mile). We have a few more of those, especially at the level 6 size. If medieval Germany and Italy had been subject to monstrous invasion, etc, then perhaps their population density wouldn't have been as high?

Also, the historical figures were for total humanoid population (with humans being the only humanoid around). In BR, a Rjurik province might have some of it's number taken by orogs or goblins living in the deep forests, etc, thereby lowering the human population. (It's a bit of a stretch, I'm not sure this would really be much of a factor at all).

Of course, one can argue another way, that with the availability of clerical magic life expectancy is higher and therefore, with more people living longer, population density might be higher. This, naturally, depends on your personal view of how readily available such magic is (my own view is that is not reaily available to peasants).

I wasn't trying to obtain accurate population data, just rough approximations that made more sense than the figures derived from RoE. Once I have a general idea of how many people might live in a province then, as DM, I can easily calculate the size of the largest settlements in the province and other potentially useful stuff like that.

Green Knight

06-20-2003, 05:58 AM

Most definitely. I have increased the area of provinces from approximately 1000 square miles to 2500 square miles. IMO that feels about right.

>
> Fra: John Machin <trithemius@PARADISE.NET.NZ>
> Dato: 2003/06/20 Fri AM 12:24:39 CEST
> Til: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Emne: Re: (BIRTHRIGHT) Future BHistory [2#1729]
>
> Daniel McSorley says:
> > France is about the right size...
> <snip!>
> > I prefer to just adjust the province ratings up, and remove
> > the Ruling of provinces from the actions allowed to players.
> > Population will go up and down in its own good time, and they
> > should just concern themselves with their holdings.
>
> Lyndon Baugh once mentioned to me how it might be a good idea to "scale"
> all the provinces (and the ground scale) up a bit (about 10x maybe?).
> This would make Cerilia a bit bigger and provide for larger kingdoms
> (and thus larger armies). It would also have the useful side effect of
> allowing discrete climates to exist on the "continent".
>
> Just an aside :)
>
> --
> John Machin
> (trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
> -----------------------------------
> "Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
> Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.
>
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Cheers
Bjørn

-------------------------------------------------
WebMail fra Tele2 http://www.tele2.no
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Birthright-L

06-20-2003, 07:02 AM

I`m starting to wonder why this is a topic again.....it is going far off
base from Birthright History.

The one thing I will say though is that everyone keeps comparing a fantasy
world to the real world. There isn`t a need for Birthright to exactly
conform to what our world was like in a similar period; it is just a fantasy
world.

I can say that I`m really impressed by how much good thought goes into all
this though! You guys really put out some good world building info! ;-)

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: Daniel McSorley <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>

On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Kalien wrote:
> After trying to find simple geometric calculations (calculus not being
> my strong point) I settled on a simple arithmetric progression for
> determining population density based on RoE province sizes. I don`t
> have access to my calculations at present, but I think in the end I more
> or less said Province Level 1 equated to population density of 30 people
> sq. mile. For each increase in Province level add +10 people sq. mile.
> (There was a little more to it than that, but I don`t recall just
> what).

That seems off to me, especially if you accept the level-squared
estimation of population (where population = level^2 * 1000). I looked at
this kind of thing a while back, here`s what I came up with.

Provinces are described as being 30 or 40 miles square. That`s close
enough to 1000 square miles, which means the population density is
level^2. To get medieval-France-like numbers, you need a lot more
provinces of level 10 or higher, basically. Rjurik should pull in around
province (6) average (similar to medieval england), Vosgaard a little
lower because the land sucks, Brechtur competitive with Anuire, and
Khinasi will vary widely from desert to fertile forest river basin.
--
Daniel McSorley

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kgauck

06-20-2003, 07:53 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel McSorley" <mcsorley@OKKOD.PAIR.COM>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:01 PM

> So by the 17th century, at least, army size wasn`t tied very tightly to
> population, if the Netherlands could compete with France, which
> was 15x its size.

Actually, your figures straddle the Military Revolution. If you stay on the
pre or the post side, numbers are pretty stable.

> If anything, Avanil and Ghoere are grossly overpowered in army size.

Ridiculously so. And when no homebrew mobilization limits are imposed, as I
have seen in PBeM`s its ROFLMAO ridiculous.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Birthright-L

06-20-2003, 07:53 AM

From: "r_johny" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>

> i seem to remember that in both editions you can actually store your blood
line in an object or section of the ground, Roele`s descendents could
easily have died out long ago while the blood abilities were stored by an
heir for someone worthy of them.
>
> in fact it wouldn`t be too unlikely for the chamberlins to know about
this and simply feel that no worthy contenders have arrived
>

In which case the chamberlain ought to be shot for refusing to accept the
thread of history and setting the empire back hundreds of years. But that
makes kind of sense - Immortal Wizards, regardless of their alignment, tend
to be very bad for the world around them. The exception are those that
satisfy themselves with being advisors and inpirators, rather than
kingmakers and lords.

Look at Gandalf vs. Sauruman...

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Lawgiver

06-20-2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Trithemius

Lawgiver says:
> France`s current population: 59,765,983 (July 2002 est.)

At the risk of being a jerk - is the current data on French population
and military really relevant to a barely-post-feudal society like
Anuire?

Some how I saw this coming. Its relevant solely for the purposes of determining the statistics related to the Military manpower - availability (males age 15-49) and Military manpower - fit for military service. It would be a reasonable assumption that the gender breakdown and fitness/health level of the population would be roughly equivalent. Thus, I applied the percentages to the current statistics. Otherwise the 59,765,983 statistic isn't worth a forged copper.

Lawgiver

06-20-2003, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by kgauck

From: "Daniel McSorley"
> If anything, Avanil and Ghoere are grossly overpowered in army size.

Ridiculously so. And when no homebrew mobilization limits are imposed, as I
have seen in PBeM`s its ROFLMAO ridiculous.

No doubt. Though they would be a good place to start a women's rights movement. With the men gone to play war the women are stuck filling in the positions of men. If they are successful at fulfilling those roles an arguement could be made that they are equal. At least that was grounds for a good deal of the changes in the U.S.

Landsturning

06-20-2003, 01:17 PM

SOLIDERS PER 1,000 POPULATION

Penguin Atlas of Recent History to 1815, by Colin McEvedy gives the following figures, which I'm not going to try to put in a neat table:
(This is by the way a neat series. Book review some other post)

Roman Empire (early 4th century)
Population 50 million
Standing army 350,000
Soldiers per 1,000 population: 7

Ottoman Empire (late 17th century)
Population 25 million
Standing army: 100,000
Soldiers per 1,000 population 7

France (late 17th century)
Population, 19 million
Standing army 150,000
Soldiers per 1,000 population: 8

I would expect population distribution by age to be very different, and probably closer to "third world" countries. One of first things historical geography class had was the diferent shaped population periods for diffeent countries and centuries ... should be able to dig up notes in d6+1 days.

Landsturning

06-20-2003, 01:30 PM

Of course those are standing armies by states/empires more centralized than the average medieval realm. I'd expect a lot of Cerilian forces to not be standing, but dispersed around the countryside in noble manors and petty forts and only convenable for a season -- though rules and practice don't fully support this.

geeman

06-20-2003, 02:14 PM

At 09:09 AM 6/20/2003 -0400, Daniel McSorley wrote:

>I think you`d do better to look at stats from a country that hasn`t been
>industrialized for a 150 years. It`s going to be hard to find a good
>parallel in the modern world at all, but a modern western power definitely
>isn`t one.

I think this is a pretty good point, and I would elaborate by noting that
the size of a military in exact numbers may not really be the best way to
go for something like the domain level of BR. A more abstracted "military
strength rating" might be better. Such an abstraction could figure in
things like the population level, emphasis placed on military spending by
the government, cultural attitudes towards militarism, etc. Exact numbers
of soldiers, even their levels and equipment could still be determined by
doing a sort of reverse algebra on the military strength rating. Going
from population to soldiers might not have quite the effect and usefulness
of a generalized system that could actually be applied to the game.

The situation then might be better framed and defined by asking, "what
factors will contribute to a military strength rating?"

Gary

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Trithemius

06-20-2003, 02:14 PM

Lawgiver says:
> Some how I saw this coming.

Prescience? Been eating a lot of "allspice" lately ;)

> Its relevant solely for the
> purposes of determining the statistics related to the
> Military manpower - availability (males age 15-49)
> and Military manpower - fit for military service. It
> would be a reasonable assumption that the gender breakdown
> and fitness/health level of the population would be roughly
> equivalent. Thus, I applied the percentages to the current
> statistics. Otherwise the 59,765,983 statistic isn`t worth
> a forged copper.

Have you considered the demographic tendencies in "modern industrial
democratic societies" towards an "ageing population". If you are keen on
using modern comparisons perhaps examining less developed (and possibly
serially embattled) countries might provide better comparisons to
Anuire? There are plenty of places like this in Africa.

Finding good data for such places is a bother at times though, since
even "official" sources like the CIA or the UN admit to pretty major
margins of error and are unlikelyto count self motivated militias as
part of the standing military.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius

06-20-2003, 02:14 PM

Lawgiver says:
> No doubt. Though they would be a good place to start a
> women`s rights movement. With the men gone to play war the
> women are stuck filling in the positions of men. If they are
> successful at fulfilling those roles an arguement could be
> made that they are equal. At least that was grounds for a
> good deal of the changes in the U.S.

That daughter of his has been uppity in a lot of the PBeMs I have seen.
Clearly this is just the upper-class manifestation of middle- and
lower-class political movements ;)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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DanMcSorley

06-20-2003, 02:14 PM

On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Lawgiver wrote:
> Some how I saw this coming. Its relevant solely for the purposes of
> determining the statistics related to the Military manpower -
> availability (males age 15-49) and Military manpower - fit for
> military service. It would be a reasonable assumption that the
> gender breakdown and fitness/health level of the population would be
> roughly equivalent. Thus, I applied the percentages to the current
> statistics. Otherwise the 59,765,983 statistic isn`t worth a forged
> copper.

I think you`d do better to look at stats from a country that hasn`t been
industrialized for a 150 years. It`s going to be hard to find a good
parallel in the modern world at all, but a modern western power definitely
isn`t one.
--
Daniel McSorley

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kgauck

06-20-2003, 06:45 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawgiver" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 7:12 AM

> It would be a reasonable assumption that the gender breakdown and
> fitness/health level of the population would be roughly equivalent.

Interestingly, gender does shift slightly (I typically estimate half, when
the actual number shifts between 45% and 55%) because of diet and
childbirth. However the last time there were more men than women in France
was prior to the 12th century, so its not anything more than trivia. It is
a slight cautionary tale about assuming that modern numbers will work
though.

If we take the assumption from a previous incarnation of this thread that
one of the reasons the population of Cerilia is so low is because of
frequent casting of death plague and the transmission of disease by moving
armies, then the health fitness numbers can`t be extrapolated at all from
modern numbers. I would argue that modern medicine and clerical magic are
not equivilent, and so wouldn`t try to compare health and fitness at all in
any event. Too many differences. I tend to figure that even with clerical
magic, the medieval numbers on disability are closer to Cerilia than any
others.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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kgauck

06-20-2003, 06:45 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawgiver" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 7:16 AM

> No doubt. Though they would be a good place to start a women`s
> rights movement. With the men gone to play war the women are stuck
> filling in the positions of men. If they are successful at fulfilling
those
> roles an arguement could be made that they are equal. At least that
> was grounds for a good deal of the changes in the U.S.

Because in an industrial cum service economy women could actually perform
the work of men. In medieval economies based on physical labor, when the
men were away the family starved. Women did organize and struggle, but
mostly to get their men back by ending war. Male labor was the hardest to
replace in medieval economics. Its one of the reasons the male is as
privlidged as he is in terms of gender relations.

Again, you`re really better off forgetting everything you know about the
world post 1800, unless you are willing to postulate that magic replaces
modern industrial technology. At a renaissance approximation, modern stuff
will lead you astray.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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kgauck

06-20-2003, 06:45 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Landsturning" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 8:17 AM

> Roman Empire (early 4th century)
> Soldiers per 1,000 population: 7
>
> Ottoman Empire (late 17th century)
> Soldiers per 1,000 population 7
>
> France (late 17th century)
> Soldiers per 1,000 population: 8

All of these societies are much more organized for manpower mobilization
than anything medieval. As such, you could imagine that these figures
reflect the upper limit for Anuire, if you presume the more Roman model that
some favor, rather than the Anglor-French semi-feudal model, which will get
you lower numbers, because more labor is directed toward better armed,
higher level characters.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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geeman

06-22-2003, 11:30 AM

At 09:31 PM 6/19/2003 +0200, you wrote:

>Having a bloodine survive for 800 years with noone knowing about it worked
>in Tolkien, where Aragorn`s forbears survived in a wasteland. there is no
>such isolated place for someone with a bloodline strength of 80+ to hide
>in. And I don`t picture Anuire as quite that conservative. Remember that
>Gondor felt no real need for a king. It was only when the opportunity
>arose that the wanted Aragon back. And LoTR is a lot more legend-like to
>me than Birthright.
>
>But I guess it`s a matter of personal taste.

People sometimes want to use the BR bloodline system to represent dynasties
or other heritable "real world" or fantasy systems of royalty. Bloodline
is, however, IMO very much a BR construct, so `porting it into another
system without some pretty serious modification--or trying to relate it
directly to a fantastic literature like JRRT`s work--isn`t going to be very
apt. Similarly, the domain level of BR is very much BR-centric. Though
there are major chunks of it that could be used in any setting it`s
arguable how functional they`d be. I guess they`d be as workable in
another campaign world as any other if one came up with a suitable system
for dealing with RP, but I don`t know how well the describe "reality" or
the absolute control that an author has over the particulars of his
novel. In the same way an endless number of write ups can be composed to
describe Aragorn (or Gandalf, Alice in Wonderland or Jiminy Cricket, for
that matter) I don`t think any one is going to very satisfactory. Even
those occasions when a novel has been composed with D&D in mind
(Salvatore`s work [which I hate] the BR novels [no comment] or Gygax`s
[anemic] fiction) that have D&D characters written up to support them seem
to lose something vital in the translation. The domain level as a
representation for Gondor`s lack of a king would have the same flaccidity.

Having said that, Aragorn didn`t have a bloodline in the BR sense, and the
"bloodline" that Tolkien ascribes to him is the legacy of his being one of
the few remaining Dunedain. He`s a member of a kind of elevated
race--human, but "chosen" or favored, and definitely superior in several
ways. It`s a mythological standard--rulers are often attributed mystical
powers. Those mystical powers, however, come from being chosen by the
gods, not having actual godly powers and deriving energy from the people
and places of their domain in a like manner to the way worship works for
deities. With the exception of the occasional mythological hero that is
directly descended from a god, that is. Even those characters who have a
mythic connection to the gods (most obvious in Greek mythology, but
certainly not limited to that mythos) don`t have a BR bloodline. If one
wanted to portray various mythological or literary characters in a game
BR`s bloodline system would probably not be the best way to go.

Gary

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kgauck

06-22-2003, 09:05 PM

And for the record, I think bloodlines nicely, and flexibly reflect a whole
group of human notions of rulership almost entirely as is.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Lawgiver

06-23-2003, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by DanMcSorley
I think you`d do better to look at stats from a country that hasn`t been
industrialized for a 150 years. It`s going to be hard to find a good
parallel in the modern world at all, but a modern western power definitely
isn`t one.
--
Daniel McSorley

Why then is my figure of 6 per thousand not that far off Landsturning's figures?

Lawgiver

06-23-2003, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by Trithemius
Have you considered the demographic tendencies in "modern industrial
democratic societies" towards an "ageing population". If you are keen on
using modern comparisons perhaps examining less developed (and possibly
serially embattled) countries might provide better comparisons to
Anuire? There are plenty of places like this in Africa.John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

I agree that a medieval/renaissance age the "average" life span was significantly lower. However, this is a fantasy world with preistly magic to cure diseases, etc. in place of modern medicine.

Additionally, I ask why would the designers list the maximum age of humans as 70+2d20 years? Hardly fitting for a typical campaign world...

Ok yes. My foolish stats SUCK! EVERYBODY PLEASE DROP THE FRIGGIN knocks on my stats! I'm just trying to help not get bashed to peices for irrelevant info. Estimates and percentages are our friends.