Confrontinthe Gorgon

[Birthright-L]

Yesterday, my players (lvl 17) confronted the Gorgon. It was intended to be
a smackdown, but in actuality was a very close match.

I used the version from the RRCS, only halving the DC of the save on the
gaze attack. Two of the players actually rolled "1" on their saves and
failed vs. the (modified) DC of 24. The two characters not turned to stone
attacked, but in practice, only the paladin (with Extra Smiting, Holy
Weapon, and a modified Cha of 32) could actually hope to hit. The other
character (a ranger) went down in the first round (he took some 200 points
of damage). Over the course of four rounds, the paladin inflicted 1128 hp -
but stoneybutt had some contingencies that allowed him to (barely) stand up.

In return, the Gorgon dished out some 500 hits (Cha 32 and lvl 17 gives a
very powerful Lay on Hands", which accounts for the huge amount of damage it
took to bring the paladin down.)

Now this was in a very well-equipped party, so I think the challenge rating
of 28 is by no means too high. Actually, his EL ought to be the same as his
character level, which is a lot higher - but I guess he`s very underequipped
for his level, according to DnD standards.

Note that the Gorgon wanted to lose in the end, and wanted to make the fight
look fair (for plot reasons), so he avoided the more outrageous magics -
like Tenser`s Transformation. Basically, this was a stand-up fight.

Need I mention that this was the culmination of a two-and-a-half year
campaign geared towards this very confrontation? And that the campaign will
now only need to be wrapped up, which should take a session or two. And then
I`ll be done with Birthright this time around. I might return, but then I`d
probably move the timeline forward into the Baroque.

/Carl

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[Karl Shenk graf von Stauf]

The other character (a ranger) went down in the first round (he took some 200 points
of damage). Over the course of four rounds, the paladin inflicted 1128 hp -

this thread is the reason why im writing these lines... lets assume that the paladin (17th lvl) is confronting gorgon (brrrr) and is actually making all shots strike true. 1128 hp per four rounds makes a 282 hp per round. if the paladin has 3 attacks per round, we end up with a 94 hp damage per single hit. ok, how on earth did the paladin managed that, even with the most outrageous stats and eq one can imagine?

[Karl Shenk graf von Stauf]

The other character (a ranger) went down in the first round (he took some 200 points
of damage). Over the course of four rounds, the paladin inflicted 1128 hp -

this thread is the reason why im writing these lines... lets assume that the paladin (17th lvl) is confronting gorgon (brrrr) and is actually making all shots strike true. 1128 hp per four rounds makes a 282 hp per round. if the paladin has 3 attacks per round, we end up with a 94 hp damage per single hit. ok, how on earth did the paladin managed that, even with the most outrageous stats and eq one can imagine?

[DanMcSorley]

On Fri, 16 May 2003, Karl Shenk graf von Staufenberg wrote:
> The other character (a ranger) went down in the first round (he took
> some 200 points of damage). Over the course of four rounds, the
> paladin inflicted 1128 hp -
>
> this thread is the reason why im writing these lines... lets assume
> that the paladin (17th lvl) is confronting gorgon (brrrr) and is
> actually making all shots strike true. 1128 hp per four rounds makes a
> 282 hp per round. if the paladin has 3 attacks per round, we end up
> with a 94 hp damage per single hit. ok, how on earth did the paladin
> managed that, even with the most outrageous stats and eq one can
> imagine?

A paladin of that level would have 4 attacks per round, and ACs don`t
scale as fast as attack bonuses, especially at high levels, so he`ll hit
with most of them. With a magic weapon, the right feats, buff spells,
smite evil, and a crit or two over the course of 16 attacks in 4 rounds,
that amount of damage is very possible. I`ve seen it done at lower
levels, in convention games. 3e D&D has a power scale rather different
from the editions that came before, especially at high levels.

I don`t really like that feel for my BR games, but if that other guy did,
more power to him.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Birthright-L]

From: "daniel mcsorley" <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

> A paladin of that level would have 4 attacks per round, and ACs don`t
> scale as fast as attack bonuses, especially at high levels, so he`ll hit
> with most of them. With a magic weapon, the right feats, buff spells,
> smite evil, and a crit or two over the course of 16 attacks in 4 rounds,
> that amount of damage is very possible. I`ve seen it done at lower
> levels, in convention games. 3e D&D has a power scale rather different
> from the editions that came before, especially at high levels.
>
> I don`t really like that feel for my BR games, but if that other guy did,
> more power to him.
> --


You are on the right track. Also remember Haste, Holy Sword (paladin spell -
causes double damage to evil targets), Spirited Charge, Divine Wrath, Extra
Smiting, Tome of Bodily Health, Armor of Command, Tome of Leadership and
Influcence, etc., etc., ad nauseum. It is certainly possible.

I wouldn`t really recommend this for anyone elses Birthright game. When I
first read the Gorgon`s stats in the conversion manual, I gasped - but it
worked out in the end IMC. But for this game, the theme was to challenge a
near-god - and it happened. To each his own!

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[Karl Shenk graf von Stauf]

on may the 16th i read the confr the gorgon msg
i can see that the paladin has 4 attacks at 17 th lvl, albeit the 4th at a +2 bonus, rendering it almost useless against such opponents... dont forget it's the gorgon we are talking about... now, i know all about the really useful feats (defenders of faith) such as divine might, divine vigor etc, the nice spells like holy sword, smite evil( paladin spell from the sword and sorcery series of books,granding 1 smite atempt) and the great paladin ability to smite evil and last but not least the haste (or mass haste) spell, but this is an optimal configuration... would it apear in a character, it would imply that the character just sceduled the line of feats and spells towards this target and bended his progression around this optimal configuration. The question is how can this produse a character that has actually lived in a campain world and was affected by that, if the character it self was merely gaining lvls towards a predetermined- predifined model?
i dont want to critisize DMs on how they run their campaigns but realism in a fantasy world is an issue...

[Birthright-L]

Yes, this character has as his campaign goal from day 1 to be the one that
killed the gorgon. He specialized in monster-slaying from an early age, and
channeled the entire resources of a very large church (Life and Protection
of vanale expanded to 100+ holding levels) towards this goal.

If a player character has a dream, he has a dream!

/Carl

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[DanMcSorley]

On Mon, 19 May 2003, Karl Shenk graf von Staufenberg wrote:
> i dont want to critisize DMs on how they run their campaigns but
> realism in a fantasy world is an issue...

Sure it is. That`s why in my game, the gorgon can`t walk, the
cross-section of his bones isn`t strong enough to support his mass.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Karl Shenk graf von Stauf]

this note is in concern with mr dan mc sorley's letter, where he quotes just one line from my message. surely for mr mc sorley that represents the spirit of my posting.
Truely, communication is possible between equals.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by DanMcSorley


On Mon, 19 May 2003, Karl Shenk graf von Staufenberg wrote:
> i dont want to critisize DMs on how they run their campaigns but
> realism in a fantasy world is an issue...

Sure it is. That`s why in my game, the gorgon can`t walk, the
cross-section of his bones isn`t strong enough to support his mass.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu


"Magic must defeat magic."
- "Uncle" from the Jackie Chan Adventures cartoons. {I don't want to grow up I'm a Toys R Us kid.}

[ConjurerDragon]

Karl Shenk graf von Staufenberg wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1654
>
> Karl Shenk graf von Staufenberg wrote:
>
>The other character (a ranger) went down in the first round (he took
some 200 points
>of damage). Over the course of four rounds, the paladin inflicted 1128
hp -
>
>this thread is the reason why im writing these lines... lets assume
that the paladin (17th lvl) is confronting gorgon (brrrr) and is
actually making all shots strike true. 1128 hp per four rounds makes a
282 hp per round. if the paladin has 3 attacks per round, we end up with
a 94 hp damage per single hit. ok, how on earth did the paladin managed
that, even with the most outrageous stats and eq one can imagine?
>
As another writer already mentioned a paladin of 17th level has 4
attacks due to BAB, not 3.

A simple Haste spell gives him an additional attack per round plus his
normal attacks due to his BAB (assuming that there was not only a ranger
and a paladin, but some support spellcasters or perhaps magical items
like a potion of speed or a weapon "of speed" which grants an additional
attack).

If the Paladins "Smite Evil" ability can be used for that day it would
add 17 points of damage for his level to 1 attack.

So 1128 hp inflicted - 17 (Smite Evil for a 17th level Paladin) leaves
1111 hp : 4 =277,75 average per round.
277,75 : 4 (normal attacks) = 69,44 hp but divided through 5 attacks
with some magic = 55,55 hp on average.

By 17th level the Paladin certainly will have the feat Improved Critical
which doubles the chance for a critical hit. With a Great Sword that
means he get a critical hit on 17 through 20 which results in more damage.

Certaily by that level he also has Weapon Focus and Weapon
Specialization with the Greatsword - that will result in a better chance
to hit and a +2 bonus to damage.

With a potion of Bull´s Strength (or the
spell) to raise his STR score and a lucky roll to raise it by 5 points
and an already high STR score of 18 (high for a Paladin who normally has
to take care of CHA and WIS as well) to a total of 23 STR meaning a +6
modifier to damage.

If he then uses a two handed weapon like a Greatsword (2D6) damage
which add 1,5 times the STR bonus so adds 9 to all hits plus the +2
bonus from Weapon Specialization this still leaves only the explanation
that the Paladin will have had more magic
availiable than I would expect him to have had in a typical Birthright
campaign.


All that assumes that all his attacks have hit and dealt damage which
can only be explained by that the Gorgon wanted to lose (else a simple
Stoneskin could have prevented the worst).

He did not by chance have a "Holy Avenger" (+5 vs. evil creatures) as
weapon? ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[Green Knight]

Or maybe it was just St. Cuthbert in disguise, utilizing his
Annihilating Strike salient divine ability. All in preparation of the
upcoming Greyhawk vs. Birthright war :-)

Pleaaaaaseeeee!!!!

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[DanMcSorley]

On Tue, 20 May 2003, Karl Shenk graf von Staufenberg wrote:
> this note is in concern with mr dan mc sorley`s letter, where he
> quotes just one line from my message. surely for mr mc sorley that
> represents the spirit of my posting.

It did represent the spirit of your post- I thought it was funny that you
were insisting on realism in a post about a fight with a giant,
god-blooded stone monster. I was making a joke. If you`d like to be
offended, that`s your right, feel free.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[ConjurerDragon]

On Tue, 20 May 2003 12:13:59 +0200, irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1654
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> [quote]Originally posted by DanMcSorley
>
> On Mon, 19 May 2003, Karl Shenk graf von Staufenberg wrote:
>> i dont want to critisize DMs on how they run their campaigns but
>> realism in a fantasy world is an issue...
>
>Sure it is. That`s why in my game, the gorgon can`t walk, the
>cross-section of his bones isn`t strong enough to support his mass.

I have read the later post in which you explain this to be a joke, but my
first two thoughts were Baron Harkonnen (Dune) and Yabba the Hut (Starwars)
for villains barely able to move without help ;-)

Tensers Floating Disk or a Levitation spell or a Teleport however would work
to travel, even if the gorgon can´t walk by himself.bye
Michael

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[ConjurerDragon]

On Tue, 20 May 2003 22:53:32 +0200, Michael Romes <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE> wrote:

[long text about how much damage could be possible snipped]
>He did not by chance have a "Holy Avenger" (+5 vs. evil creatures) as
>weapon? ;-)

After sending this I remembered that Paladins can cast spells themselves...

Even the simple level 1 Paladin spell "Bless Weapon" would have enabled him
to completely ignore the Gorgons damage reduction of 34/+4.

Divine Favor will add +5 to his damage in addition to his STR bonus and the
weapon specialization.

And to ashame me even more the Paladin does not even need a Holy Avenger
Weapon which is +5 vs. evil creatures (which I ironically asked if he had
one) - with level 17 he can cast level 3 spells and has access to Greater
Magic Weapon which makes his weapon a +5 weapon (17 : 3).

So even without uber-equipment a Paladin could be able to deal that much
damage (against an evil creature like the Gorgon).
bye
Michael

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[irdeggman]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon


On Tue, 20 May 2003 22:53:32 +0200, Michael Romes <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE> wrote:

[long text about how much damage could be possible snipped]
>He did not by chance have a "Holy Avenger" (+5 vs. evil creatures) as
>weapon? ;-)

After sending this I remembered that Paladins can cast spells themselves...

Even the simple level 1 Paladin spell "Bless Weapon" would have enabled him
to completely ignore the Gorgons damage reduction of 34/+4.

Divine Favor will add +5 to his damage in addition to his STR bonus and the
weapon specialization.

And to ashame me even more the Paladin does not even need a Holy Avenger
Weapon which is +5 vs. evil creatures (which I ironically asked if he had
one) - with level 17 he can cast level 3 spells and has access to Greater
Magic Weapon which makes his weapon a +5 weapon (17 : 3).

So even without uber-equipment a Paladin could be able to deal that much
damage (against an evil creature like the Gorgon).
bye
Michael


How did a paladin get weapon specialization? It is a fighter-only feat and requires 4 levels of fighter.

When I first read this I was thinking that you were wrongly adding like bonuses, but I double checked and it looks like you were correct on the additions and stacking, except for specialization that is.

Yup, paladins rule if they survive long enough that is. "First in, last out" makes for a lot of low level deceased paladins.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon


On Tue, 20 May 2003 22:53:32 +0200, Michael Romes <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE> wrote:

[long text about how much damage could be possible snipped]
>He did not by chance have a "Holy Avenger" (+5 vs. evil creatures) as
>weapon? ;-)

After sending this I remembered that Paladins can cast spells themselves...

Even the simple level 1 Paladin spell "Bless Weapon" would have enabled him
to completely ignore the Gorgons damage reduction of 34/+4.

Divine Favor will add +5 to his damage in addition to his STR bonus and the
weapon specialization.

And to ashame me even more the Paladin does not even need a Holy Avenger
Weapon which is +5 vs. evil creatures (which I ironically asked if he had
one) - with level 17 he can cast level 3 spells and has access to Greater
Magic Weapon which makes his weapon a +5 weapon (17 : 3).

So even without uber-equipment a Paladin could be able to deal that much
damage (against an evil creature like the Gorgon).
bye
Michael


I knew I was missing something, a paladin's caster level is 1/2 of his class level (PHB pg 42) so the benefits of the spells listed are greatly reduced. Greater Magic Weapon would be +2 (17/2 (round down to 8) : 2) same with other spell benefits.:)

[Birthright-L]

I can assure you all that this paladin was VERy well
equipped. Ten years of work by a 100-holding-levles
church insures that.

But the final power comes from the paladin spell "Holy
Sword". Check out this spell - it is awesome. And it
has nothing to do with swords, eiter - a lance with
Sppirited Charge and this spell will casue x4 damage
even without a critical hit.

As for improved critical, the Gorgon has 75%
fortification, so that is essentially pointless. Extra
Smiting is a feat much better spent.

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[geeman]

At 12:12 AM 5/21/2003 -0700, Michael Romes wrote:

>>That`s why in my game, the gorgon can`t walk, the cross-section of his
>>bones isn`t strong enough to support his mass.
>
>I have read the later post in which you explain this to be a joke, but my
>first two thoughts were Baron Harkonnen (Dune) and Yabba the Hut (Starwars)
>for villains barely able to move without help ;-)
>
>Tensers Floating Disk or a Levitation spell or a Teleport however would work
>to travel, even if the gorgon can´t walk by himself.

I got kind of a smile out of the idea of the Gorgon being so immobile that
he sunk right into a non-rocky surface. Imagine that situation being
translated into a variation of the method that the Grimm Graybeard utilized
to become a sort of "stone spirit" in the oft maligned Baruk Azhik
sourcebook.... I didn`t really give the idea much thought, however, until
just now. Maybe it`s just because I`m a big Dune aficionado and who
doesn`t like Star Wars? (Rhetorical question.) But the idea of the Gorgon
being immobile emulating Baron Harkonnen or Jabba actually kind of works
for me. I wouldn`t do it in a campaign set in the standard BR period, but
if one were to continue the timeline a few centuries it might be pretty cool.

In fact, I`ve been kind of half considering a sort of H.G. Wells/A.C Doyle
kind of campaign for BR in which players would take on the role of
detectives to solve various Jack the Ripper-like crimes all with the
background of BR political intrigue and history. One can take or leave the
color commentary in the Gorgon`s description that speculates that in the
future he may become more and more stoney, possibly to the point where is
will eventually be unable to move, but it would make sense to do something
like that if the timeline were advanced. I picture him moving around on a
contraption that is both mechanical and magical... maybe steam powered, or
even with some Tesla electrical display going on.

Gary

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[Karl Shenk graf von Stauf]

i can only agree with this line
"paladins rule if they survive long enough that is. "First in, last out" makes for a lot of low level deceased paladins."
does anyone remember the TSR "paladin in hell" adventure? :)

[marcum uth mather]

so i would like to know how the campaign ended. after 2 years of playing it would have to be a real good ending.