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TheVoice
05-08-2003, 07:42 PM
Does anyone know of any know incidences or ledgends where the birthright gods, new or old, had children with a mortal? If so, was the birth sucessful? What was the progeny like?

Azrai
05-08-2003, 10:18 PM
As far as I remember there is no official hint to that topic.

geeman
05-08-2003, 11:34 PM
TheVoice writes:

> Does anyone know of any know incidences or ledgends where the
> birthright gods, new or old, had children with a mortal? If
> so, was the birth sucessful? What was the progeny like?

That might be a somewhat sticky issue in BR since the role of scions really
takes over what would be the role of those mythic heros who had divine
ancestry in other pantheons--probably most notably the Greek. Since scions
have "the blood of the gods" in them by virtue of their descendance from
someone who was present at the battle of Deismaar--or in a few cases having
actually been there themselves--a character actually descended of a BR god
and a mortal in the RL mythic sense could be a sort of scion.

That might not be a bad thing if one wanted to develop it somehow as part of
a campaign. The Lost, for instance, might be quite interesting if they were
actually defined as descendants of Azrai. It would also allow for the
creation of new bloodline derivations--Moradin, Laerme and Cuiracaen, for
example--which could also be a lot of fun to play out. BR purists might
howl, but there`s no reason why one can`t do it in a homebrew. I, for one,
would be interested in hearing how such a campaign played out.

When it comes to the new gods, however, one should bear in mind that they`ve
taken something of a "hand`s off" view when it comes to human affairs (all
puns fully intended) since such activities have turned so destructive in the
past, so mortal heros who are descended from the gods after Deismaar would
seem unlikely.

Gary

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irdeggman
05-09-2003, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by geeman

That might not be a bad thing if one wanted to develop it somehow as part of
a campaign. The Lost, for instance, might be quite interesting if they were
actually defined as descendants of Azrai. It would also allow for the
creation of new bloodline derivations--Moradin, Laerme and Cuiracaen, for
example--which could also be a lot of fun to play out. BR purists might
howl, but there`s no reason why one can`t do it in a homebrew. I, for one,
would be interested in hearing how such a campaign played out.
Gary


The problem with creating "new bloodlines" is that the god has to "die" first. That was how they (bloodlines) were created in the first place, by the "total" destruction of the divine being that was its source. Any other method of creating new bloodlines would destroy the campaign concepts in this regard.

Now children of the gods and mortals (or even elves?) would be an interesting concept and probably could be be worked out using the guidelines in Deities and Demigods.

DanMcSorley
05-09-2003, 01:38 PM
On Fri, 9 May 2003, irdeggman wrote:
> The problem with creating "new bloodlines" is that the god has to
> "die" first. That was how they (bloodlines) were created in the
> first place, by the "total" destruction of the divine being that was
> its source. Any other method of creating new bloodlines would destroy
> the campaign concepts in this regard.

We don`t know that they have to die to create a bloodline, only that that
is how the current ones were formed. I think it`s plausible that the Lost
had azrai bloodlines even before Deismaar, that`s how they got to be
powerful. He would have just given the bloodlines to them by hand, so to
speak.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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TheVoice
05-09-2003, 02:29 PM
Thanks Guys! Interesting answers all round, thanks for the help. I shall use the possibilities are rumours more than anything since the game I'm playing in is not run by yours truley.

Cheers again!

geeman
05-09-2003, 02:45 PM
At 11:32 AM 5/9/2003 +0200, irdeggman wrote:

>The problem with creating "new bloodlines" is that the god has to
>"die" first. That was how they (bloodlines) were created in the first
>place, by the "total" destruction of the divine being that was its
>source. Any other method of creating new bloodlines would destroy the
>campaign concepts in this regard.

That`s the method that created the original bloodlines, and the only one
described in the published materials, but there`s nothing that really
indicates that`s the only way of creating a bloodline. In fact, one could
argue that there are a few indications that bloodlines existed in some form
before the battle, and that their creation, though rare, is possible. The
Lost and the Land`s Choice could be interpreted as a process of character
level apotheosis (which is all bloodline is, really) that equates to
characters getting a new bloodline.

Allowing new derivations is a shift in the system of bloodline, but it
won`t destroy the campaign concept. New bloodline derivations doesn`t mean
the impact of the battle of Deismaar is any less significant to the
setting`s background, or that characters would be significantly
altered. Thematically, one could fit new derivations into the bloodline
system pretty easily. No new derivations might be something of a "sacred
cow" in BR terms, but I`ve always found sacred cows tastier than the
regular kind, so that`s never really been something I worry about.

To include new derivations all one really needs two things. The first is a
justification for their creation and that`s pretty easy. One could descend
from the mating of a god with a mortal, the Land`s Choice could create new
derivations--maybe even ones that don`t exist as gods in the BR pantheon, a
conscious effort on the part of a god might create a bloodline, a 9th level
spell similar to the one the Magian uses to corrupt bloodlines or other
"mad scientist" experimentation of the kind that created the Binman or gave
the Chimaera a bloodline. One could even extrapolate the blending of
bloodlines over the years into new derivations based upon those gods who
actually had offspring in the years after they ascended--if the gods can
create whole new gods then one could posit a similar process at the mortal
level of bloodline.

The second is a list of the blood abilities associated with the
derivation. Laerme might have Alter Appearance, Blood History, Bloodmark,
Character Reading, Detect Lie, Detect Illusion, Direction Sense, Divine
Aura, etc.

>Now children of the gods and mortals (or even elves?) would be an
>interesting concept and probably could be be worked out using the
>guidelines in Deities and Demigods.

Was there some part of that text in particular you were thinking of
here? Proxies, perhaps?

If so, it might be interesting to think of bloodline as sort of the Savage
Species version of that process; an articulated "levelling up" process to
demigodhood.

Gary

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Azrai
05-09-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by geeman


In fact, one could
argue that there are a few indications that bloodlines existed in some form
before the battle, and that their creation, though rare, is possible. The
Lost and the Land`s Choice could be interpreted as a process of character
level apotheosis (which is all bloodline is, really) that equates to
characters getting a new bloodline.

??? I don't see any "indications". The Bloodlines have their origin in the battle of Deismaar.


Allowing new derivations is a shift in the system of bloodline, but it
won`t destroy the campaign concept. New bloodline derivations doesn`t mean
the impact of the battle of Deismaar is any less significant to the
setting`s background, or that characters would be significantly
altered.

The invention of new bloodlines IS a significant change of the campaign world.


If so, it might be interesting to think of bloodline as sort of the Savage
Species version of that process; an articulated "levelling up" process to
demigodhood.

That is not such a bad idea.

geeman
05-09-2003, 05:46 PM
At 05:24 PM 5/9/2003 +0200, Azrai wrote:

>??? I don`t see any "indications". The Bloodlines have their origin in
>the battle of Deismaar.

Well, "indications" in this case might be a rather strong word for the
Birthright community--which can be rather semantically hypersensitive in my
experience (I include myself in that population there.) "Hints" or
"suggests" might be softer language and more appropriate.

When it comes to the influence of the Lost on the width and breadth of the
bloodline concept, the logic would be that if the Lost could cast true
magic before Deismaar that indicates [or insert softer transitive verb]
that whatever it is that it is that makes one "Lost" is similar to a
bloodline, since that`s one of the things bloodline does. Interpreting the
Lost as wizards with a bloodline or something very similar to it would
explain their access to true magic. There are other possibilities, of
course, to explain the abilities of those characters, many of which have
been extolled in the past, so I`ll not recount them. None of those
possibilities, however, are mutually exclusive. That is, one member of the
Lost may have had his soul replaced with some demonic one and gained access
to certain true magics, while another might have been granted some sort of
bloodline-like set of stats to gain access to true magic. Azrai may (and
probably would) have experimented with such things.

Since the only things in BR the only things that allow for access to true
magic is a bloodline or elven heritage making the Lost similar to a blooded
character is not only the simplest explanation but the one that fits most
easily into the setting material.

When it comes to the Land`s Choice there seems to be a power at work that
allows for the creation of a bloodline of any sort at the whim of that
power. It could be completely a random power, or there could be an
intelligence behind it, but there is some motive force that creates those
bloodlines. The Land`s Choice can create entirely new bloodlines with new
bloodline strength, bloodline score and blood abilities. The derivation of
such a newly minted bloodline is also up to the Land`s choice. Now, I
can`t say for sure what it is that the actual gods to do to have
offspring. I imagine there`s a correlation to the mortal methods,
certainly, but there`s also a mixing of the "divine genetic material" as it
were. Since the Land can invent bloodlines and assign a derivation to them
it must have some sort of control over that process, so one can extrapolate
the creation of new bloodline derivations at least for those gods that were
created from the gods elevated at Deismaar that is similar to the
"eugenics" that the gods themselves employ to have progeny.

The Land`s Choice creating derivations for gods or their progeny that
weren`t at Deismaar is a bit more of a stretch but one can get there by
considering the bigger picture a bit. Temples of gods other than those
directly connected to Deismaar can generate regency for scions who control
them, and the bloodline derivations of those controlling regents need not
have any connection to the god being worshipped. A scion of Basaia can
collect regency from a temple dedicated to Brenna, Moradin or the even
Serpent. Whatever it is that makes something a Temple of X is incidental
to the process of worship and divinity itself. Derivation really only
effects the type of blood abilities a character has access to. Regency
comes from a connection to the Land itself, and since temples structures
are connected to all the gods the has some sort of connection to each of
them. Creating a derivation based on another god`s "portfolio" then
shouldn`t be that much of a leap.

>
>Allowing new derivations is a shift in the system of bloodline, but it
>won`t destroy the campaign concept. New bloodline derivations doesn`t mean
>the impact of the battle of Deismaar is any less significant to the
>setting`s background, or that characters would be significantly
>altered.
>
>The invention of new bloodlines IS a significant change of the campaign world.

Sure, but extending the concept wouldn`t destroy the campaign theme or ruin
its background.

Gary

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Peter Lubke
05-10-2003, 11:35 AM
On Fri, 2003-05-09 at 09:01, Gary Foss wrote:
> TheVoice writes:
>
> > Does anyone know of any know incidences or ledgends where the
> > birthright gods, new or old, had children with a mortal? If
> > so, was the birth sucessful? What was the progeny like?
>
> That might be a somewhat sticky issue in BR since the role of scions really
> takes over what would be the role of those mythic heros who had divine
> ancestry in other pantheons--probably most notably the Greek. Since scions
> have "the blood of the gods" in them by virtue of their descendance from
> someone who was present at the battle of Deismaar--or in a few cases having
> actually been there themselves--a character actually descended of a BR god
> and a mortal in the RL mythic sense could be a sort of scion.

Yet we are still talking human beings here in the most part - and for
the purpose of further discussion within this post I`ll limit myself to
comments re humans only.

That several human (only) characters were raised to godhood in the
aftermath of Deismaar is itself significant for it raises the
possibility of such occurring again.

Would such a change make them incapable of producing children with other
humans? An argument is given later that they would not want to, but such
an argument is fraught with potential pitfalls. Can they only reproduce
with each other (as has occurred - and thus shows that the desire and
drive still exists) ? Do the gods have feet of clay? Does some of their
humanity still exist? How can they know their people without
experiencing the whole gamut of existence ?

Given all that, and human nature even if transmogrified, I`d say that -
yes it is possible, yes it is likely, but no we haven`t heard of
anything.

But, and here`s the main point, this may not necessarily mean that the
progeny were (a) godlike (demi-gods, godlings, etc), (B) exceptional in
any way (including even being unblooded). Given that a god (or goddess -
although less likely due to insufficient fitness indicators in mortal
suitors) may have dallied in avatar form - such a form does not
necessarily carry or transmit bloodline.

Of course if they were blooded, and exceptional in their activities -
given the degree of parental interest, they may become candidates for
immortal status of some kind - even to raising to godhood.

>
> When it comes to the new gods, however, one should bear in mind that they`ve
> taken something of a "hand`s off" view when it comes to human affairs (all
> puns fully intended) since such activities have turned so destructive in the
> past, so mortal heros who are descended from the gods after Deismaar would
> seem unlikely.
>
> Gary

Based on a "hands-off" agreement alone, I don`t think so. While such an
understanding is necessary for the BR world to function, the idea of
humans raised to godhood "playing nicely" together at godhood
(especially when you consider the good vs evil paradigm) without some
higher balance enforcing the rule is, IMO, unlikely.

Nor is a hands-off role easy to define. The gods interact in some way
with the BR world, and even avatars of the gods are seen there from time
to time. The line cannot be a sharp one, it will always be blurred.
"Gray" conditions could be defined no matter how you look at it which
will allow progeny between gods and humans.

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Peter Lubke
05-10-2003, 11:35 AM
On Fri, 2003-05-09 at 19:32, irdeggman wrote:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1636
>
> irdeggman wrote:
>
Originally posted by geeman
>
> That might not be a bad thing if one wanted to develop it somehow as part of
> a campaign. The Lost, for instance, might be quite interesting if they were
> actually defined as descendants of Azrai. It would also allow for the
> creation of new bloodline derivations--Moradin, Laerme and Cuiracaen, for
> example--which could also be a lot of fun to play out. BR purists might
> howl, but there`s no reason why one can`t do it in a homebrew. I, for one,
> would be interested in hearing how such a campaign played out.
> Gary
>
>
> The problem with creating "new bloodlines" is that the god has to "die"
> first. That was how they (bloodlines) were created in the first place, by
> the "total" destruction of the divine being that was its source. Any
> other method of creating new bloodlines would destroy the campaign
> concepts in this regard.

You mean new "derivation". Even the creation of the younger gods,
Cuiraecen, Laerme et al did not create new bloodline derivations.

I don`t think that the destruction of Avani, Erik, Haelyn, Nesirie etc
would create a new derivation. They are not "primal" gods, but
secondary ones. Perhaps the real reason that the secondary gods will not
engage each other is precisely that - destruction would be permanent, as
these gods do not have the ability to pass on their derivation and
portfolios like the elder gods. (Limitations on godly powers is and
always has been a basic tenet of D&D - not to mention most human
legend).

For dwarves, Moradin is a primal god figure. If it were possible that he
were to be discorporated and his essence confined to Aebrynnis and/or
Cerilia in some way then perhaps there would be a new derivation.

Personally, IMC, I already limit bloodlines to humans only. It solves a
great number of petty problems and inconsistencies. The lack of
bloodlines for non-human rulers does not stop them from collecting RP
because I interpret the RP rule as the maximum of bloodline score and
domain power (as does RoE and the other source books).

>
> Now children of the gods and mortals (or even elves?) would be an
> interesting concept and probably could be be worked out using the
> guidelines in Deities and Demigods.

Two complicating factors exist:
(a) The human gods were once (are still? in some way?) themselves human
(B) Bloodlines, inheritance - genetic or otherwise -

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Peter Lubke
05-10-2003, 11:48 AM
On Fri, 2003-05-09 at 23:02, daniel mcsorley wrote:
> On Fri, 9 May 2003, irdeggman wrote:
> > The problem with creating "new bloodlines" is that the god has to
> > "die" first. That was how they (bloodlines) were created in the
> > first place, by the "total" destruction of the divine being that was
> > its source. Any other method of creating new bloodlines would destroy
> > the campaign concepts in this regard.
>
> We don`t know that they have to die to create a bloodline, only that that
> is how the current ones were formed. I think it`s plausible that the Lost
> had azrai bloodlines even before Deismaar, that`s how they got to be
> powerful. He would have just given the bloodlines to them by hand, so to
> speak.
> --
> Communication is possible only between equals.
> Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

Good point

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Peter Lubke
05-10-2003, 11:48 AM
On Sat, 2003-05-10 at 03:43, Gary wrote:
> At 05:24 PM 5/9/2003 +0200, Azrai wrote:
>
> >??? I don`t see any "indications". The Bloodlines have their origin in
> >the battle of Deismaar.
>
> Well, "indications" in this case might be a rather strong word for the
> Birthright community--which can be rather semantically hypersensitive in my
> experience (I include myself in that population there.) "Hints" or
> "suggests" might be softer language and more appropriate.
>
...
>
> Since the only things in BR the only things that allow for access to true
> magic is a bloodline or elven heritage making the Lost similar to a blooded
> character is not only the simplest explanation but the one that fits most
> easily into the setting material.

Actually, it`s "one" way for a HUMAN (?or other usually non-casting
species? - it seems not, one minor argument for no non-human bloodlines
except those of Azrai) to gain access to true magic. It`s the only way
open to player characters. Other possible explanation for the Losts`
powers have been put forward. One powerful argument against the Lost
having Azrai bloodlines is their lack of bloodform transformation. But
such argument does not mean that they could not have been given a
bloodline (unique or unknown derivation) by Azrai.


>
> >
> >Allowing new derivations is a shift in the system of bloodline, but it
> >won`t destroy the campaign concept. New bloodline derivations doesn`t mean
> >the impact of the battle of Deismaar is any less significant to the
> >setting`s background, or that characters would be significantly
> >altered.
> >
> >The invention of new bloodlines IS a significant change of the campaign world.
>
> Sure, but extending the concept wouldn`t destroy the campaign theme or ruin
> its background.
>
> Gary

Agreed.

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geeman
05-10-2003, 02:08 PM
At 08:41 PM 5/10/2003 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>One powerful argument against the Lost having Azrai bloodlines is their
>lack of bloodform transformation.

Do you have a reference for that? I don`t recall reading anything that
would specifically said they didn`t transform.

Gary

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geeman
05-10-2003, 02:08 PM
Assuming that one of the gods did have a child with a mortal, that that
child will him/erself be a mortal, and the benefits of his/er divine
heritage will be described using the BR system of bloodline... what would
that bloodline be? Derivation I think we can surmise, but what about
bloodline strength and score? Will s/he have a true bloodline strength or
will it be something more or less powerful? What kind of bloodline score
might such a character have? (For the purpose of this discussion it might
be easiest to use the 2e concept of bloodline score rather than any of the
post-2e ability score or character level interpretations of
bloodline.) Last, would the character have abilities other than bloodline,
like the celestial template?

Gary

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ryancaveney
05-12-2003, 08:30 PM
On Sat, 10 May 2003, Gary wrote:

> Assuming that one of the gods did have a child with a mortal [...]
> What kind of bloodline score might such a character have?

I`d say the god would get to choose. I`d further say the gods have a
limited amount of energy to play with, and that giving a mortal by-blow
more than a taint of bloodline would cost the god some of their personal
power (which might or might not be replenishable by worship). Makes
in-game sense, and provides a good reason we don`t see many (if any) of
these demigods running around. If you`re going to have demigods in your
campaign, IMO the most logical choice among existing NPCs is to have the
White Witch be literally the daughter of Kriesha.


Ryan Caveney

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Arjan
05-12-2003, 11:08 PM
Take the raven for an example... he did transform to a "raven", then
took over a human body...

On the other hand, IMO the lost got their azrai essence after the big
boom. So only those (known) to be survived could have a azrai bloodline
and thus being transformed.
They were already mighty true wizards, a power given by azrai, but that
doesn`t say they had a bloodline in front of deismaar.

Arjan

-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Gary
Sent: zaterdag 10 mei 2003 14:53
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Gods and mortals question..... [2#1636]

At 08:41 PM 5/10/2003 +1000, Peter Lubke wrote:

>One powerful argument against the Lost having Azrai bloodlines is their
>lack of bloodform transformation.

Do you have a reference for that? I don`t recall reading anything that
would specifically said they didn`t transform.

Gary

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Talaran
05-15-2003, 06:22 PM
When the original gods took form at the Battle of Desmaar, they pooled all of their energies into their form, not just creating an avatar - making uber-avatars, so-to-speak. This is why when they were destroyed that their power was dispersed out. If the gods took an avatar form on Cerilia and were killed, it wouldn't, IMHO, create a new bloodline. The old gods did it only in a last ditch effort at the battle, which was an all or nothing fight. Similiar circumstances would have to happen for the new gods to take such a foolish action.

As for the offspring of a god and a mortal, I would say that the offspring would automatically be considered a Great bloodline of the derivation that the parent god would have gained; if it happened to be one of the first generation of new gods (Haelyn, Erik, Avani, etc...). Otherwise, it would be about a fifty-fifty percent chance for the bloodline of either of the god's parentage (Cuiraecen = Anduiras/Masela; Eloele = Vorynn/Brenna; Laerme = Reynir/Basaia).

In the Blood Enemies book, they imply that the Gorgon gained enough of Azrai's power to ascend to godhood, but his hatred of Roele kept him mortal-bound. One might suppose that if this is so, then any children that he would have had would have been the same as a god and a mortal bearing children.

Talaran ap Sielwode