Subjec d20 Race Creation help needed

[Birthright-L]

Hello all. Here`s something to ponder. I have been thinking about modifying
the Dwarves in my world. What i was thinking of is taking away some
existing abilities and replacing it/them with 1 bonus dice of hp.

For example, every member of the Dwarf race would get extra hp`s at the
time of creation, regardless of class. Question, in order to maintain the
balance, how many extra hp should be added [fixed amount or die roll, type
of die] and what ability/abilities would this replace?

thanks for your opinions


CyberSavant Matrix Guide
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[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Birthright-L

Hello all. Here`s something to ponder. I have been thinking about modifying
the Dwarves in my world. What i was thinking of is taking away some
existing abilities and replacing it/them with 1 bonus dice of hp.

For example, every member of the Dwarf race would get extra hp`s at the
time of creation, regardless of class. Question, in order to maintain the
balance, how many extra hp should be added [fixed amount or die roll, type
of die] and what ability/abilities would this replace?

thanks for your opinions


CyberSavant Matrix Guide
cybersavant.tripod.com/cybersavantsmatrix/
RingMaster of the star_trek_interactive webring [webring.org]
www.geocities.com/thorazbrynaziir
ICQ: 78031576 AIM: cybrsvnt
Gaming since 1980!

Imagine. Act. Write. Role-play!


It depends on what you're trading the bonus hit die for. If it is for their damage reduction (normally a +1 ECL per Savage Species) a single bonus hit die is fairly tame and not quite equivalent. Most of the time a d8 is used for bonus hit die.

Instead you could increase their hit die size in exchange for the damage reduction. Undead get a d12 vice a d8 so this is probably a reasonable exchange. A first level dwarven fighter would use a d12 instead of a d10 a cleric would use a d10 instead of a d8. Note for a barbarian you could have troubles, a d12 to a d20? But due to their racial tendency towards lawful alignments IMO there are essentially no dwarven barbarians so this potential problem could be eliminated in that way.

[DanMcSorley]

On Thu, 1 May 2003, irdeggman wrote:
> Instead you could increase their hit die size in exchange for the
> damage reduction. Undead get a d12 vice a d8 so this is probably a
> reasonable exchange. A first level dwarven fighter would use a d12
> instead of a d10 a cleric would use a d10 instead of a d8. Note for a
> barbarian you could have troubles, a d12 to a d20? But due to their
> racial tendency towards lawful alignments IMO there are essentially no
> dwarven barbarians so this potential problem could be eliminated in
> that way.

You always have to account for the dumbass munchkins apparently, who would
come up with a reason to have a cerilean dwarf barbarian if you made it
just `one bigger die for hps`. There`s a template, probably half-dragon,
that provides an increase like this, and it just flat-out states you can`t
go beyond a d12 as a result of the template.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 1 May 2003, daniel mcsorley wrote:

> On Thu, 1 May 2003, irdeggman wrote:
>
> > Instead you could increase their hit die size in exchange for the
> > damage reduction. [...] Note for a barbarian you could have
> > troubles, a d12 to a d20?
>
> There`s a template, probably half-dragon, that provides an increase
> like this, and it just flat-out states you can`t go beyond a d12 as a
> result of the template.

That`s one approach.

Another thing I would suggest is to note that with each increase of die
size, the average result increases by one; lacking d14s and d16s, I`d say
the next higher die types above d12 are actually d12+1, d12+2, etc.

An amusing alternative to a d14 might be 2d6+d4-2, which has the same
range (1-14) and average (7.5) as d14 would, but produces extreme values
far less often (1s and 14s are slightly less than 1/10th as frequent on
this as on a "real" d14, and 7s and 8s are about twice as frequent).

Using a d20 but rerolling anything above 14 (or 16 or 18) is probably the
best plan, but it`s good to have more options. =)


Ryan Caveney

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[DanMcSorley]

On Fri, 2 May 2003, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
> Another thing I would suggest is to note that with each increase of die
> size, the average result increases by one; lacking d14s and d16s, I`d say
> the next higher die types above d12 are actually d12+1, d12+2, etc.
>
> An amusing alternative to a d14 might be 2d6+d4-2, which has the same
> range (1-14) and average (7.5) as d14 would, but produces extreme values
> far less often (1s and 14s are slightly less than 1/10th as frequent on
> this as on a "real" d14, and 7s and 8s are about twice as frequent).
>
> Using a d20 but rerolling anything above 14 (or 16 or 18) is probably the
> best plan, but it`s good to have more options. =)

Yeah, you know, that was kinda scary; I know enough about dice mechanics
that my two quarters of probability and statistics at college were really
easy, but you just blew my mind.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 4:39 PM


> Hello all. Here`s something to ponder. I have been thinking about
> modifying the Dwarves in my world. What i was thinking of is
> taking away some existing abilities and replacing it/them with 1
> bonus dice of hp.

My take on this would be to reflect dwarven long life and craft emphisis
with a level of expert based on craft excellence rather than just a spare
hit die. This nicely handles the question of dwarven craft bonuses, hit
dice, and ECL modifier all in one approach.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 2 May 2003, daniel mcsorley wrote:

> Yeah, you know, that was kinda scary; I know enough about dice
> mechanics that my two quarters of probability and statistics at
> college were really easy, but you just blew my mind.

*grin* Pleased to be of service. I love probability and statistics.
I have bucketloads of dice, but sometimes I think I have more fun
calculating what might happen when you roll them than when actually doing
so. I guess that makes me a mathematician. :}

I have a friend from college whose personal game uses a "d24" combat
system -- you can pick any combination of dice you want whose total number
of faces add up to 24. 2d12, 3d8, 4d6, 6d4, d4+d20, d4+d8+d12, 3d4+2d6,
etc. This allows you great flexibility in choosing the exact shape of the
probability distribution of your "notional die", and also gives everyone
something useful to do with all of those polyhedral dice they`ve collected
over the years but never seem to use.

BTW, professionally, he`s a chaos theorist. =)


Ryan

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[Birthright-L]

From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>

> I have a friend from college whose personal game uses a "d24" combat
> system -- you can pick any combination of dice you want whose total number
> of faces add up to 24. 2d12, 3d8, 4d6, 6d4, d4+d20, d4+d8+d12, 3d4+2d6,
> etc. This allows you great flexibility in choosing the exact shape of the
> probability distribution of your "notional die", and also gives everyone
> something useful to do with all of those polyhedral dice they`ve collected
> over the years but never seem to use.
>

Did anyoneever try 24d1? Since allthe dice always show 1, the total is
always 24.

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[geeman]

At 11:14 PM 5/10/2003 +0200, Starfox wrote:

>Did anyoneever try 24d1? Since allthe dice always show 1, the total is
>always 24.

LOL. At first I discounted the 4-6dX mechanic as being a bit goofy, but
after some consideration I wonder if one of the problems with the d20
system is... well, the d20. The flat results of a single die make for an
even chance of any particular number on the die, so the "degree of success"
winds up being somewhat flaccid. If one used 2d10 rather than a d20 one
could get a very similar range of results, but with a simple bell curve
that would provide a more "natural" range of results. It would also be
easily incorporated into the d20 system. None of the rules regarding
critical hits, skill checks, saving throws, etc. would necessarily need to
be changed. Of course, the likelihood of critical hits would change, but I
think that might not be a bad thing. The more I think on it the more I
like it....

Gary

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[ConjurerDragon]

Gary wrote:

> At 11:14 PM 5/10/2003 +0200, Starfox wrote:
>
>> Did anyoneever try 24d1? Since allthe dice always show 1, the total is
>> always 24.
>
> LOL. At first I discounted the 4-6dX mechanic as being a bit goofy, but
> after some consideration I wonder if one of the problems with the d20
> system is... well, the d20. The flat results of a single die make for an
> even chance of any particular number on the die, so the "degree of
> success"
> winds up being somewhat flaccid. If one used 2d10 rather than a d20 one
> could get a very similar range of results, but with a simple bell curve
> that would provide a more "natural" range of results. It would also be
> easily incorporated into the d20 system. None of the rules regarding
> critical hits, skill checks, saving throws, etc. would necessarily
> need to
> be changed. Of course, the likelihood of critical hits would change,
> but I
> think that might not be a bad thing. The more I think on it the more I
> like it....
> Gary

If a "1" is always a failure or a miss in an attack, would you fail/miss
when only 1 of the 2D10 rolls a 1 which is then double as likely as if
rolling a D20, or only if BOTH show a 1?
bye
Michael

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[Birthright-L]

From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>

> [...] after some consideration I wonder if one of the problems with the
d20
> system is... well, the d20. The flat results of a single die make for an
> even chance of any particular number on the die, so the "degree of
success"
> winds up being somewhat flaccid. If one used 2d10 rather than a d20 one
> could get a very similar range of results, but with a simple bell curve
> that would provide a more "natural" range of results.
>

Personally, I`ve become rather fond of the d20 for this very reason. A bell
curve system become pretty predictable - d20 is rather wild statistically.
And since d20 is rather tame rules-wise, it all works out.

The main weakness of the bell curve is that a +1 modifier is worth a lot
more in some instances than in others. Say we use 2d10. If you have to roll
an 18 to succeed, a +1 modifier improvesthe chance by 4%. If you need to
toll an12 in order to succeed, a +1 bonus increases the chance of success by
+10%. With a d20, the increase is always a flat +5%.

Then again, this is exactly what you like about the bell curve...

/Carl

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[geeman]

At 09:56 AM 5/11/2003 +0200, Michael wrote:

>If a "1" is always a failure or a miss in an attack, would you fail/miss
>when only 1 of the 2D10 rolls a 1 which is then double as likely as if
>rolling a D20, or only if BOTH show a 1?

Right now I`m thinking it`d be both. That is, what used to be called a
"natural 1" in D&D (actually rolling a 1 on the d20) would be replaced by a
"natural 2" function (rolling two 1`s on 2d10) and would work the same
way. I mentioned the BoH/MEGS game rules which I`ve always gotten a kick
out of, and that`s pretty much how it works in that system.

In fact, in that system they use a 2d10 roll and if one rolls doubles then
one can choose to roll again and add that to the first dice
roll. Subsequent doubles allows for additional dice to be rolled. If a
player rolled double 4`s then double 6`s then double 8`s he could continue
to roll until he got disparate die results, and then add them all up to get
his total result. It could go on infinitely so long as the player chose to
continue rolling and kept getting doubles. Rolling double 1`s, however,
always resulted in failure, even if the player had just rolled double 10`s
eight times in a row, so there`s always the chance of a catastrophe even
when it looks like a phenomenal success is about to happen. In most cases
it doesn`t make a lot of sense to keep rolling after one gets up to a total
result around 30, but theoretically it could go on forever. I don`t think
I`d go with something like that for a D&D campaign, but it`s a very
interesting way of using the dice and always grabs the attention of
everyone at the table when it happens during play. I`d compare it to what
happens in a lively game of craps--and nobody has to lose a bunch of cash
(other than the money they spend on their RPG materials.)

One thing I forgot to mention in the previous post on the subject is that
I`m considering the same function for the domain level of play. Instead of
d20 for the success roll on domain actions one would roll 2d10. I suspect
that bonuses from skills, feats or class abilities might work a bit better
in such a system. Thematically, I think the bell curve of 2d10 might be a
bit more "natural" given that the activities of a domain action take place
over an extended period of time and would tend to "average out" more than
the results of a d20 would. Since things like population levels and
holding levels represent a scaled up number of people (level 1 = 2,000
people, level 2 = 5,000, level 3 = 10,000) a bell curve to reflect the
difficulty of accomplishing domain level effects that influence those
numbers seems to just fit more naturally.

Also, if one uses a wound/vitality system then the remoteness of critical
hits is probably a good thing. It might make some sense to address the
critical threat range of weapons.

I still have to sell the idea to the players in my group, so we`ll see.

Gary

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[ryancaveney]

On Sat, 10 May 2003, Stephen Starfox wrote:

> From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
>
> > I have a friend from college whose personal game uses a "d24" combat
> > system -- you can pick any combination of dice you want whose total number
> > of faces add up to 24. 2d12, 3d8, 4d6, 6d4, d4+d20, d4+d8+d12, 3d4+2d6,
>
> Did anyoneever try 24d1? Since allthe dice always show 1, the total is
> always 24.

No, the smallest die he would allow was d4: the point was to actually use
as much of your existing polyhedral dice collection as possible. That`s
actually why he chose 24, as opposed to any other number: it`s small
enough to be manageable, but it breaks up into a particularly large number
of possible combinations. The allowed dice were the six standard ones:
d4, d6, d8, d10, d12 and d20. Once someone made and started selling d30s,
he added the rule that if you were sufficiently desperate, you might be
allowed to roll d30-d6, with the understanding that getting a negative
roll was begging him to kill your character.

Your question actually points out my personal objection to the system: I
want *only* the standard deviation to change, not the mean as well. That
is, not only is 6d4 more predictable than 2d12, it`s also got an average
that`s two points higher; I would therefore want to make people roll 6d4-2
instead. It`s a balance thing -- you`d need never worry about rolling a 2
or 3, but at the price of never rolling a 23 or 24. I`ve never used this
system myself (part of the problem is that if you used an odd number of
dice, you`d need to subtract a half), but if I did, to me picking "24d1"
would be the equivalent of "taking 10" -- you`d always get the exact
average of the distribution (12 or 13, depending on whether the default
roll was 2d12 (range 2-24) or 2d12-1 (range 1-23)).


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Sat, 10 May 2003, Gary wrote:

> At first I discounted the 4-6dX mechanic as being a bit goofy,

That it is, a bit -- at least the picking of different dice each time.

> but after some consideration I wonder if one of the problems with the
> d20 system is... well, the d20.

I recommend you look back in the archives to my post of Fri, 15 Nov 2002
entitled "Re: nothing to do with dwarves [2#1068]", in which I discussed
with Peter Lubke a method for using 3d6 to resolve all contests, as an
outgrowth of Travis Doom`s question on how to handle arm-wrestling with
the too-flat d20. I am rather fond of it.

> even chance of any particular number on the die, so the "degree of
> success" winds up being somewhat flaccid.

Agreed. On a d20, a +1 is pretty useless; on a 3d6, it can be very big.

> If one used 2d10 rather than a d20 one could get a very similar range
> of results, but with a simple bell curve that would provide a more
> "natural" range of results.

Really excessive nitpick: rolling two dice gives a straight-sided
triangle, with none of the curvature I`d expect from a bell: for that
you`d need at least three dice. Personally, I`d recommend 2d8+d6-2,
which has exactly the same range (1-20) and average (10.5) as d20.


Ryan Caveney

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[Mark_Aurel]

One potential bug of rolling 2d10 instead of 1d20 involves weapons (if I've understood your intention correctly). If you use the standard threat ranges, swords become a bit better than axes. One simple, but maybe strange, solution would be to only allow critical hits on the lowest threat number normally available; I think that would maintain the normal internal proportions between criticals. I.e. weapons that normally threaten on 18-20 now threaten on 18, but not 19 or 20, weapons that threaten on 19-20 threaten on 19, but not 20, etc. Given that critical hits would be less frequent, this isn't really a major problem, but not somewhat changing the rules for crits would turn out to benefit certain weapons over others.

[geeman]

At 07:34 AM 5/12/2003 +0200, Mark_Aurel wrote:

>One potential bug of rolling 2d10 instead of 1d20 involves weapons (if
>I`ve understood your intention correctly). If you use the standard threat
>ranges, swords become a bit better than axes. One simple, but maybe
>strange, solution would be to only allow critical hits on the lowest
>threat number normally available; I think that would maintain the normal
>internal proportions between criticals. I.e. weapons that normally
>threaten on 18-20 now threaten on 18, but not 19 or 20, weapons that
>threaten on 19-20 threaten on 19, but not 20, etc. Given that critical
>hits would be less frequent, this isn`t really a major problem, but not
>somewhat changing the rules for crits would turn out to benefit certain
>weapons over others.

I was thinking of doing away with the whole threat range variation and
critical hit multiplier function and just going with 20 (or maybe 19-20 for
all weapons.) I want to combine the 2d10 with a vitality/wound system in
which a critical hit does the weapon`s normal damage, but to wound points
rather than vitality, so the multiplier goes away anyway. That does, of
course, reduce the variability of weapons which may not be cool, but I`ll
have to check it out to see how it works before I decide whether or not
that particular aspect of the rules is worth keeping in such a system.

Gary

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[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman

At 07:34 AM 5/12/2003 +0200, Mark_Aurel wrote:

>One potential bug of rolling 2d10 instead of 1d20 involves weapons (if
>I`ve understood your intention correctly). If you use the standard threat
>ranges, swords become a bit better than axes. One simple, but maybe
>strange, solution would be to only allow critical hits on the lowest
>threat number normally available; I think that would maintain the normal
>internal proportions between criticals. I.e. weapons that normally
>threaten on 18-20 now threaten on 18, but not 19 or 20, weapons that
>threaten on 19-20 threaten on 19, but not 20, etc. Given that critical
>hits would be less frequent, this isn`t really a major problem, but not
>somewhat changing the rules for crits would turn out to benefit certain
>weapons over others.

I was thinking of doing away with the whole threat range variation and
critical hit multiplier function and just going with 20 (or maybe 19-20 for
all weapons.) I want to combine the 2d10 with a vitality/wound system in
which a critical hit does the weapon`s normal damage, but to wound points
rather than vitality, so the multiplier goes away anyway. That does, of
course, reduce the variability of weapons which may not be cool, but I`ll
have to check it out to see how it works before I decide whether or not
that particular aspect of the rules is worth keeping in such a system.

Gary



Another thing to think about is the effect on "keen" weapons and the Improved Critical feat. If there is only 1 number for a threat range then this sort of defeats the purpose of these benefits and if criticals are reduced to a natural 20 then the same thing applies.:)

[Birthright-L]

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
>
> Another thing to think about is the effect on "keen" weapons and the
Improved Critical feat. If there is only 1 number for a threat range then
this sort of defeats the purpose of these benefits and if criticals are
reduced to a natural 20 then the same thing applies.:)
>


Not true. As long as the "threat number" (as opposed to threat range) is not
10 or below, all such benefits work normally. The chance of rolling a 11 is
10 times that of rolling a 20 on 2d10, just as the chance or rolling a score
in the range 11-20 is ten times that of rolling a score of 20 on 1d20. That
is the beauty of this idea.

/Carl

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[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Birthright-L

From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
>
> Another thing to think about is the effect on "keen" weapons and the
Improved Critical feat. If there is only 1 number for a threat range then
this sort of defeats the purpose of these benefits and if criticals are
reduced to a natural 20 then the same thing applies.:)
>


Not true. As long as the "threat number" (as opposed to threat range) is not
10 or below, all such benefits work normally. The chance of rolling a 11 is
10 times that of rolling a 20 on 2d10, just as the chance or rolling a score
in the range 11-20 is ten times that of rolling a score of 20 on 1d20. That
is the beauty of this idea.

/Carl


So the threat range is actually a threat number that is chosen based on its probability of occurance, the more probable numbers would correspond to the weapons with a "better" threat range.

[geeman]

I`d like to mention a few things about using 2d10 to resolve checks at the
domain level.

Using 2d10 rather than 1d20 to resolve success rolls for domain actions
makes RP more significant, and it seems to me that anything that makes RP
more significant is probably a good thing. Personally, I don`t much care
for the change in the BR D20 document that allows non-blooded regents to
control a domain, but mostly I object because the advantage of a bloodline
at the domain level is less significant because RP are "worth less" as it
were. RP can be used to assure the success of actions, but using a d20 the
success that they are assuring is in the range of 5-50% most often. Using
2d10 to resolve domain actions means that a non-blooded regent could still
rule relatively small provinces or holdings, but his ability to rule up
very large provinces and holdings is relatively remote.

Just to mention how I think things like the Improved Critical feat and Keen
magic items would work is that they would just increase the threat range of
the item by 1 to 19-20 (3%) or, if one had both, to 18-20 (6%). One could,
in fact, make a series of those feats/effects. That is, give Improved
Critical some text that allows a character to take it more than once or,
better yet, have one or more feats that give additional +1 to the critical
threat range. Superior Critical and Supreme Critical. Something similar
could be used for the Keen and Vorpal weapons.

Gary

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[ryancaveney]

On Mon, 12 May 2003, Stephen Starfox wrote:

> Not true. As long as the "threat number" (as opposed to threat range)
> is not 10 or below, all such benefits work normally. The chance of
> rolling a 11 is 10 times that of rolling a 20 on 2d10, just as the
> chance or rolling a score in the range 11-20 is ten times that of
> rolling a score of 20 on 1d20. That is the beauty of this idea.

Yes, it`s rather nice. "Doubling" the threat range on 2d10 would change
20 to 19, 19 to 17, 18 to 15, etc., just as on a d20 it would change 20 to
19-20, 19-20 to 17-20, and 18-20 to 15-20. Having 11 be the "best
possible" critical threat number is not much of a restriction, since even
a Keen rapier in the hands of someone with Improved Crit (rapier) will be
12, and it`s hard to get better than that, ever. Actually, you could go
"past" 11 if you could accept a stranger-looking mechanic: the equivalent
under this mechanic of a threat range of 9-20 would actually be "11 or
19", or "15 or 18-20", or any other set with a probability 12/100.

The big difference is the overall percentage: crits done this way will
happen only one-fifth as often, which could be good or bad.

Here`s another way to do it, using 2d10 and still keeping all crit range
percentiles unchanged: make the two dice two different colors, and look at
each one somewhat separately. You`d still add them to determine hit or
miss, but crits would read them differently. A threat range of X-20 could
then look like "the red die rolls anything from X-10 to 10, and the blue
one rolls odd". If X is less than 11, this would have to be modified a
bit; even numbers of d20 faces are easy to handle -- a threat range of
7-20 would be "the black die is 4 or more, regardless of what the green
die says" -- but odd numbers of faces could get a bit funky (8-20 becomes
"you threaten a crit if the purple die is 5 or more, or if the purple die
is 4 and the yellow die is at least 6").

Actually, that last might not be so bad, and could in fact subsume all
these mechanics: just note that if the two d10s are differently colored,
every roll of 2d10 happens also to be readable as a roll of d100, and that
a crit range of "roll above X on d20" is exactly the same thing as "roll
above 5X on d100". I like it. It adds a bit of extra randomness, in that
a crit range of 19-20 would threaten a crit on some rolls of 10 (9+1) but
not on some rolls of 19 (0+9), but I think that could be a lot of fun.

Wargamers may notice I`ve stolen this mechanic from AH/MMP`s Advanced
Squad Leader. ASL resolves almost everything with 2d6, and most of the
rest are an independent d6, but a few things look at just one of the dice
of a pair rolled for some other reason. The "crit range = lowest value"
thing suggested by Mark Aurel is in fact exactly how ASL`s sniper mechanic
works, even though most of their rolls are "less than or equal to."
Their convention, to make the rules easier to read, is that one die is
considered to be white and the other colored; owners of d10s marked
"00,10,20,..." could say instead things like "if the tens die is odd and
the units die is at least 8."


Ryan Caveney

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