Birthright Campaign played- need info

[Landen_Haesri]

Guys~

Well, after owning the campaign for nearly 5 years, I finally played it with my group for the first time. *THE* first time. Needless to say, I was very anxious and excited. Actually, I had to trick 'em into thinking we were going to play a "regular" DnD adventure- you know, that one where you wander around with your sword and your shield and kill kobolds and goblins till you gain a level? Yup, but I put a twist on it. It went as follows:

Me- "Okay Jer, your elf fighter is cool. Now roll for bloodline."

Jer- "Wait- what's a bloodline?"

Me- "Oh, its a Birthright thing. Basically, you role to see what kind of gods' blood you have in you and you get some neat powers."

Jer- *eyes light up with newfound power* "Ok!"

-we roll for his stuff (he got Azrai, btw)-

Me- "Okay, great! Oh, and by the way, you've inherited this section of Cerilia to rule as king."

Jer- "Um... okay. Why?"

Me- *eyes light up with DM cunning* "Its a Birthright thing."

And that was that. Two of the five elected to stay as regulars and act as the other regent's lieutenants but, after a couple of rounds of watching the kings battle it out, decided they wanted a bloodline and some sort of power. Anyway, I ran into a couple of problems and need some help!

The setting- Southern Anuire, and its 2nd Ed. DnD

Player:
Raygolas, Elf King of the Erebannien

Vorwyck Kindle, Dwarven Pro Temp King of Roesone

Syane, High Mage

Bran "The Brewmaster" Rumblebelly, High Halfling (is that an oxymoron?) Priest of the Impregnable Heart of Haelyn

Vydej, Guildmistress of the Port of Call Exchange

Questions:
1. A racial question. Is it "Cerilian" (read: fit the campaign feel) to be a dwarven king of a human kingdom? The story is simple: Marlae Roesone had a daughter and, at the time of her death, invested her power into Vorwyck, her dwarven lieutenant, until her daughter comes of age. The other one, Bran the Halfling, was the dwarf's lieutenant until he wanted a place to fit in- had to make that one up in the fly (he changed gods from Moradin to Haelyn so his character fit, but he kept the brewmaster title). Just wondering.

2. When the elf king moved into Aerenwe, he wanted it to be in his family for many, many generations to give him his elf kingdom close to the other players. I let this happen and don't regret it, cause he started a war with Roesone to take back what was "rightfully his"- Abbatuor, the last bit of the Erebannien. Was a great move, but my question is about the three provinces that weren't forest- what do I do then? Should I allow the elves to live there, in the plains, and raise the province level from 5/1 to 5/5 (ect.) to reflect this? Or should I turn it into forest? I don't know exactly how it'll change gameplay, so I'm presenting it to you. Which leads to....

3. The High Mage insists that if, in fact, those WERE plains with 5/5 or 6/6 then she should have those source levels automatically. I think it would make her more powerful than she needs to be. My question- should I let her be the only one with control of sources after (if) I raise these? Or should I let the Swamp Mage or Second Swamp mage have some free sources to fill in the gaps?

4. With the mage class, the High Mage decided she wanted to specialise (?) in Water Magic because she had Masela's bloodline. Is this also Cerilian? I figured it was because of the inherent natural property of arcane magic in BR but wanted a second opinion.

All of that aside, we had a wonderful three days filled with BR fun and, sadly though I had to leave town again (spring break ended) they want to keep it alive via email. I'm able to change these before we start and told them I probably would. Constructive responses welcome! Also, if anyone's interested, I'm going to try and keep this up in another part of BR available to read for enjoyment and any help the BR experts out there can give me. There is a forum for that, right? Not too sure.

Thanks!

Charlie

[ConjurerDragon]

Landen_Haesri wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1585
>
> Landen_Haesri wrote:
> Guys~
>Well, after owning the campaign for nearly 5 years, I finally played it with my group for the first time. *THE* first time. Needless to say, I was very anxious and excited. Actually, I had to trick `em into thinking we were going to play a "regular" DnD adventure- you know, that one where you wander around with your sword and your shield and kill kobolds and goblins till you gain a level? Yup, but I put a twist on it. It went as follows:
>Me- "Okay Jer, your elf fighter is cool. Now roll for bloodline."
>Jer- "Wait- what`s a bloodline?"
>Me- "Oh, its a Birthright thing. Basically, you role to see what kind of gods` blood you have in you and you get some neat powers."
>Jer- *eyes light up with newfound power* "Ok!"
>
And this will not exist in a new system if scions are absolutely
balanced with all classes and penalized with an ECL - he would instead
think much more if some bloodabilitys are worth to lose some of his
levels in his class. :-(

>Questions:
>1. A racial question. Is it "Cerilian" (read: fit the campaign feel) to be a dwarven king of a human kingdom? The story is simple: Marlae Roesone had a daughter and, at the time of her death, invested her power into Vorwyck, her dwarven lieutenant, until her daughter comes of age. The other one, Bran the Halfling, was the dwarf`s lieutenant until he wanted a place to fit in- had to make that one up in the fly (he changed gods from Moradin to Haelyn so his character fit, but he kept the brewmaster title). Just wondering.
>
No, it is not. Dwarves in Cerilia are very insular. One dwarven realm
has completely shut it´s doors to the surface, the others have only the
most necessary connections to their neighbours. With racial prejudices
running amok in Cerilia, especially between Humans and Elves
(Sidhelien), I can imagine that other races would have to work hard to
be accepted as rulers of another races realm.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Landen_Haesri]

Michael~

Thanks. I felt that way as well and thought that it would create too many problems from within the kingdom to allow it to work right. I'll have to have a discussion with my BR group about their choice of race and hope that they will be up to altering their characters a bit. I hate to do it, though. Oh well, I'll figure something out.

Charlie

[darknightlost]

Originally posted by Landen_Haesri
I'll have to have a discussion with my BR group about their choice of race and hope that they will be up to altering their characters a bit. I hate to do it, though. Oh well, I'll figure something out.


Why are you doing it if you don't want to? I understand that racial tension is rampant in cerilia, but the dwarves and humans have a mutulal undestanding of staying out of each others way. The dwarf in question is not really a king, but a Chancelor of sorts who is running the kingdom for a short time (or a long, how old is the child heir?). Regardless of the race, if the populace liked the former ruler they should respect the decision of that ruler as to who will be the gardian of the bloodline, realm and heir to the throne. No I don't think they'll like it, but most will agree that it's better than losing the bloodline completly and having to suffer a civil war to determine who has the right to rule the realm.

The biggest chalenge will be in winning over and/or keeping in line the other blooded nobiles who could have won that war. ;)

[Nikolai II]

I agree, the most important part is that you all have fun. If you want them to play humans, then by all means say that we told you 'it has to be so'. But if it is for the enjoyment of all then things can be worked out.

E.g. Dwarven kingdoms are insular, dwarves need not be, also see above.

Aerenwe: Well, provinces that aren't forests are obviously deforested. Keep them humans (since your elven kingdom here obviously is working well together with humans).
This is actually the wierdest one, and the one that should be changed. Offer to make him a bastard half-elf with dominant elven blood instead. (A half-elf, but with no half-elven traits and all elven traits, in effect an elf). Unless you can persuade the player to become a human or half-elf, that is.

Skip as many of the elves as possible, at least those on tha plains, they'll only bring you grief, from campaign and players alike.

If you think water mage belongs, then it does, but it's wierd to see a land-based high mage with it. Maybe a sea wizard would be better for that.

Well, good luck.

[darknightlost]

I disagree with the elf point Nikolai II.
The elves once ruled all of cerilia, why wouldn't they want to start taking back the plains and coast? If the elves are starting to get aling with humans again then good for them!
They obviously have an open minded leader (and that is saying alot for a cerilian elf). I see no reason why the plains can't be built up to 5/5. The real chalenge is when you start to mix the races in one provence. I would not give a provence of humans and elves the extra source, since the humans development of the land is what causes the lowering of the source, while the elves live as a part of the land and do not cause the source to drop.

No, I dont beleve you should give the High Mage the source for free.
:)

[Landen_Haesri]

I noticed some posts that are making points on things that I don't think I made clear, so let me clarify them now.

The elf king in Aerenwe hates humans. Absolutely. He's actually chosen the alignment Lawful Evil as a result (he thought that Rhoubhe was an awesome example, and he just wanted to be an evil king in general). We all decided that the kingdom of Aerenwe is and always has been populated with elves (like the Sielwode). Thats why I needed to know what to do with the plains... since elves have lived there the entire time, the province ratings were technically never reduced in the first place.

Aside that, thanks for the input. darknightlost, your take on the dwarf as chancellor is 100% correct, as is with the people of the kingdom. The previous regent was loved and, when her choice was made for her most trusted lieutenant to take over the rule until her 5-yr old daughter came of age, everyone grumbled but nodded their heads because they respected her decision. I never thought of the other minor nobles' roles in this, though. I'll have to think that one over, maybe have it come about as a reoccuring random event.

Nickolai II, I'm interested in your "land-based high mage" statement. The high mage in question rolled up a great bloodline score with Masela as her derivation, which is the only reason she decided to become an elementalist of water. She also chose the (now war-torn) province of Abbatuor as her home so she could be closer to the coastline of Anuire and have contact with the various magical underwater creatures. She also wants to try and make her own realm spells that include the ocean at some point. I thought that was cool.

On the specialist mage POV, does anyone have suggestions on what should/should not be allowed? I have the Tome of Magic and Spells and Powers book and love the various mages; I think that the Alchemist-type mages are a good representation of how magical items in this world should be made, without the more permanent magical item creation (except for the most powerful wizards). And the dimensionalist is also cool, possibly pulling its magic from the Shadow World.

Again, thanks for the posts! I'm putting together the campaign over the internet right now and its a great time to get information from fans and DMs outside my group.


Charlie

[Landen_Haesri]

Oh, a couple more things...

Can regents share regency points for the same domain action if they're working in tandem? (read: espionage action)

In the war cards, is there a limit to how many "units" can be in one square? I don't know for certain.

([_]

Charlie

[ConjurerDragon]

Nikolai II wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1585
>Nikolai II wrote:
> I agree, the most important part is that you all have fun. If you want them to play humans, then by all means say that we told you `it has to be so`. But if it is for the enjoyment of all then things can be worked out.
>E.g. Dwarven kingdoms are insular, dwarves need not be, also see above.
>
The problem is not only the race, but the gods. Most Anuireans follow
Haelyn as the king of gods.
A dwarf from a dwarven realm will only follow Moradin - where will he
pray? Will a shrine to Moradin be tolerated by the priests of Haelyn?

Remember the laws of Moradin´s children (from the Player´s Secrets of
Baruk-Ahzik, closesest dwarven realm to Aerenwe):
Torvald´s Law:
All dwarves answer first and foremost to Moradin. Their lives must be
dedicated to his laws and teachings.
Mirvald´s Law
The bonds of teh family must be regarded as sacred. No dwarf shall
undertake any action that might tear a family asunder.
Sivia´s Law
Every dwarf of Baruk-Ahzik is of equal worth.
No dwarf shall place himself or herself above another.
Kalvia´s Law
The safety of Baruk-Azhik´s lands and people must never be compromised.
Zohra´s Law
The dwarven lands are a gift from Moradin. Their resources and wealth
must be treated with respect and used to their fullest potential. The
lands treasures must not be squandered.
Zahra´s Law
Evil must never be allowed to triumph over good.
Kalmirn´s Law
Enslavement of a dwarf must never be tolerated.
Kalgraf´s Law
No dwarf in Baruk- Azhik shall want for food, shelter or companionship.
Dwarves must care for their own kind, especially the aged and infirm.

Torvalds Law would bring a dwarven regent (even if only regent until the
heir reaches his age to take the crown himself) in direct conflict with
the priests of Haelyn. Kalvias Law if known will let every human know
that this dwarf will place the safety of Baruz-Ahzik over the interestes
of Aerenwe if ever in doubt - who would want him as regent?
Zohras Law will bring him into conflict with every guild...

>Aerenwe: Well, provinces that aren`t forests are obviously deforested. Keep them humans (since your elven kingdom here obviously is working well together with humans).
>This is actually the wierdest one, and the one that should be changed. Offer to make him a bastard half-elf with dominant elven blood instead. (A half-elf, but with no half-elven traits and all elven traits, in effect an elf). Unless you can persuade the player to become a human or half-elf, that is.
>
So that he will not be hated by the humans, but despised? ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

Landen_Haesri wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1585
>Landen_Haesri wrote:
> Oh, a couple more things...
>Can regents share regency points for the same domain action if they`re working in tandem? (read: espionage action)
>
Normally no. Every regent has his own regency pool and can spend only
from this pool. Some house rules require even an Investiture action or
an oath of vassalage to give RP from one regent to another (instead of
just granting them like gold).

>In the war cards, is there a limit to how many "units" can be in one square? I don`t know for certain.
>
In the 2E rules, no you could stack your entire army into one square.
For larger armys this was quite necesary as the batlefield with only 3X5
squares is rather small.

And it allowed you to combine the attack of archers with the anti-horse
defence of pikemen.

In the 3E draft as far as I understand the battlefield is still as small
as in 2E (3X5) but now no stacking is allowed.
This means every battle will be only a minor skirmish with most of the
army in reserve when two large armies meet.
In addition archers will be vulnerable and pikemen useless - archers
can´t fire OVER pikemen as archers still can shoot only into the next
square and pikemen can´t jump in front of the archers when the enemys
cavalry charge arrives...

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[Lord Grave]

> Questions:
> 1. A racial question. Is it "Cerilian" (read: fit the campaign feel) to
> be a dwarven king of a human kingdom? The story is simple: Marlae Roesone
> had a daughter and, at the time of her death, invested her power into
> Vorwyck, her dwarven lieutenant, until her daughter comes of age. The
> other one, Bran the Halfling, was the dwarf`s lieutenant until he wanted
> a place to fit in- had to make that one up in the fly (he changed gods
> from Moradin to Haelyn so his character fit, but he kept the brewmaster
> title). Just wondering.

It`s totally non-Anuirean. Anuireans are very xenophobic. Even marrying a non-Anuirean can have negative impact on regent`s bloodline. Anuirean realm with Dwarf as regent would probably be attacked by every other realm.

>
> 2. When the elf king moved into Aerenwe, he wanted it to be in his family
> for many, many generations to give him his elf kingdom close to the other
> players. I let this happen and don`t regret it, cause he started a war
> with Roesone to take back what was "rightfully his"- Abbatuor, the last
> bit of the Erebannien. Was a great move, but my question is about the
> three provinces that weren`t forest- what do I do then? Should I allow
> the elves to live there, in the plains, and raise the province level from
> 5/1 to 5/5 (ect.) to reflect this? Or should I turn it into forest? I
> don`t know exactly how it`ll change gameplay, so I`m presenting it to
> you. Which leads to....

Maybe allow the Elves to plant forest in the provinces. It would probably require some kind of Build action that takes a lot of time. If they have a wizard, they could also develop a realm spell that speeds up the growth of forests. As the forests grow to take over the plains, you can slowly increase the maximum magical potential of the province.

However, you should also keep in mind than Anuireans, especially those who still believe in the Empire, would take this as loss of Anuirean territory and do everything to regain it. Diemed comes to my mind, for example, and Osoerde could certainly use an excuse.

>
> 3. The High Mage insists that if, in fact, those WERE plains with 5/5 or
> 6/6 then she should have those source levels automatically. I think it
> would make her more powerful than she needs to be. My question- should I
> let her be the only one with control of sources after (if) I raise these?
> Or should I let the Swamp Mage or Second Swamp mage have some free sources
> to fill in the gaps?

I guess they now have level 0 sources, right? If the magical potential increases, it cannot be automatically harnessed. Wizards would have to spend rule actions to attract newly available mebhaighl to their sources.

>
> 4. With the mage class, the High Mage decided she wanted to specialise (?)
> in Water Magic because she had Masela`s bloodline. Is this also Cerilian?
> I figured it was because of the inherent natural property of arcane magic
> in BR but wanted a second opinion.

According to Birthright rules, Wizards cannot specialize. According to core AD&D rules, there is no elemental specialization. I think this is your judgement only. If you think that letting High Mage specialize in water magic wouldn`t hurt the campaign, then just do it. Maybe you could forget the specialization and let her have a blood ability that makes her water-based spells stronger?

Btw, speaking of water deities, I have toyed with the idea of Sea Druids who worship Nesirie.

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[ConjurerDragon]

Milos Rasic wrote:

>Maybe allow the Elves to plant forest in the provinces. It would probably require some kind of Build action that takes a lot of time. If they have a wizard, they could also develop a realm spell that speeds up the growth of forests.
>
Not rather druids? The 3E PHB spell Plant Growth (Drd 3, Plant 3, Rgr 3)
would be the approbiate basic spell to research a Realm spell from in my
opinion and the spell is not in the arcane spell list in 3E anymore. If
2E is used they could either search for a wizard capable of casting the
4th level wizard spell plant growth or a druid.

>>. With the mage class, the High Mage decided she wanted to specialise (?)
>>in Water Magic because she had Masela`s bloodline. Is this also Cerilian?
>>I figured it was because of the inherent natural property of arcane magic
>>in BR but wanted a second opinion.
>>
>According to Birthright rules, Wizards cannot specialize.
>
If he uses 2E Birthright, then he can specialize (p. 12 Birthright
rulebook "They may choose to be mages or specialist wizards of any
school EXCEPT ILLUSION AND DIVINATION."
bye
Michael Romes

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[Nikolai II]

Dwarf: According to Moradins laws (in the version used by Baruk-Azhik) maybe he couldn't be a good leader. But maybe he's just a bad dwarf? Might that be why he's out among the humans instead of cooped up in his hole together with his homogenous brethren?;)
And as for humans not allowing rule.. there are elves (Tuarhievel) that could accept a human as interim leader (as in - the next decade or two). Sure there could be racist troubles, but that is more up to their campaign, and it shouldn't (in any campaign) be allowed to overshadow the fun.:)
(On another 'Xenophobic' note we have Elinie, with heathen assassins as leaders, and everyone is happy about that)

Building a new elven kingdom when a similiar one exists (Sielwode) sounds like a lot of work for little use, but I guess it is your campaign. If you dont want to change places of the two nations then we go to your setting; if elves have always ruled there then the forests will still be there, and with sources intact.
However the High Mage will (should) get squat, since all new sources should be under tight control by an elven mage, if not under the PCs court then a rebel (maybe a rebel, someone friendly towards humans :P) (Remember that the original 'High Mage' doesn't even manage to wrest control of sources away from Rogr Aglondier.

[ryancaveney]

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Landen_Haesri wrote:

> The elf king in Aerenwe hates humans. Absolutely.

Good for him! =)

> (he thought that Rhoubhe was an awesome example, and he just wanted to
> be an evil king in general).

Yeah, I love the Manslayer, too.

> We all decided that the kingdom of Aerenwe is and always has been
> populated with elves (like the Sielwode). Thats why I needed to know
> what to do with the plains... since elves have lived there the entire
> time, the province ratings were technically never reduced

Oh, that`s easy then -- those provinces are all still Ancient Forest!
If the elves never left, the trees were never cut down.

> The high mage in question rolled up a great bloodline score with
> Masela as her derivation, which is the only reason she decided to
> become an elementalist of water. She also chose the (now war-torn)
> province of Abbatuor as her home so she could be closer to the
> coastline of Anuire and have contact with the various magical
> underwater creatures.

Very sensible of her! This is excellent roleplaying material.

> She also wants to try and make her own realm spells that include the
> ocean at some point. I thought that was cool.

I agree. This is a character concept definitely worth exploring. At the
very least, there`s plenty of flavor text to play with. For example, in
coastal provinces her Mass Destruction spells would always appear as tidal
waves -- you could even try making rules tweaks based on this, such as
making Mass Destruction cheaper for her along the water (especially
against ships at sea) but impossible too far inland...

> On the specialist mage POV, does anyone have suggestions on what
> should/should not be allowed?

I think bloodline should get into it, as you and your player have done.
I wouldn`t allow a scion of Basaia`s derivation to become a water
elementalist (because fire opposes water), but I would encourage those of
Masela`s to do so (as your player chose). That covers four of them; then
note that Vorynn makes for good force mages, and Azrai for shadow. As
always, what exactly to do with Brenna is the hardest problem. From my
previous arguments on the topic, I`d be tempted to suggest chronomancy,
except that IMO time-travel is way too powerful to allow anyone to have;
but some of the other time magic, like the various Articus`s spells (Melee
Manager, Devolutionary Warrior, et al.) could be good.

> And the dimensionalist is also cool, possibly pulling its magic from
> the Shadow World.

Yes, the Shadow World is a great source for all sorts of weird and scary
magic, and "secrets man was not meant to know" -- it`s a fine place to
find Cthulhuesque powers of madness. (Hey, maybe the Cold Rider is really
Nyarlathotep!)


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:

> Milos Rasic wrote:
>
> > Maybe allow the Elves to plant forest in the provinces. It would
> > probably require some kind of Build action that takes a lot of
> > time. If they have a wizard, they could also develop a realm spell
> > that speeds up the growth of forests.
> >
> Not rather druids? The 3E PHB spell Plant Growth (Drd 3, Plant 3, Rgr 3)
> would be the approbiate basic spell to research a Realm spell from in my
> opinion and the spell is not in the arcane spell list in 3E anymore.

This is precisely why my thoughts about 3e BR include making druid the
basis for all the Sidhelien (and prohibiting it to humans) -- at the very
least, they simply must have free access to every spell that has anything
to do with plants. For any human, even a chosen of Erik, to have a closer
relationship with Cerilia`s trees than an elf strikes me as completely wrong.


Ryan Caveney

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[ConjurerDragon]

Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>Not rather druids? The 3E PHB spell Plant Growth (Drd 3, Plant 3, Rgr 3)
>>would be the approbiate basic spell to research a Realm spell from in my
>>opinion and the spell is not in the arcane spell list in 3E anymore.
>>
>This is precisely why my thoughts about 3e BR include making druid the
>basis for all the Sidhelien (and prohibiting it to humans) -- at the very
>least, they simply must have free access to every spell that has anything
>to do with plants. For any human, even a chosen of Erik, to have a closer
>relationship with Cerilia`s trees than an elf strikes me as completely wrong.
>Ryan Caveney
>
Maybe they have a closer relation with trees (and I hope you don´t mean
that in the sense Robinson Crusoe did ;-))
but they do not cast divine spells as they do not worship gods.

If these "relationship" with trees is a racial thing, then your
suggestion to limit the druid class to elves is not correct. Then you
would have to add a racial ability, like e.g. "Hiding in trees" (as
described in the novel Greatheart for the elves of Sielwode) or "Feel
the emotions of trees" as elven racial abilitys.

A druid would be able to let a tree grow faster and larger with his
spells and one druid became the treant (Blood Enemies book) and there
are even in our times people who talk with their plants to have them
grow better ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

Nikolai II wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1585
>Nikolai II wrote:
> Dwarf: According to Moradins laws (in the version used by Baruk-Azhik) maybe he couldn`t be a good leader.
>
> But maybe he`s just a bad dwarf? Might that be why he`s out among the humans instead of cooped up in his hole together with his homogenous brethren?;)
>
That is likely.
A dwarf outside and far away of the dwarven realms is unlikely to exist.
At the very least he would deprive his clan of a worker and his thane of
a fighter against the orog menace - so EITHER he is out side the dwarven
realm on a purpose (e.g. sent out as a spy, scout, trader) or he is a
renegade. As a renegade he may be an outcast who commited a crime
against these very laws, or just an independent spirit who does not fit
into the lawful dwarven society.

But both options do not make him a better regent - just the opposite.
Both options mean that he either has hidden plans/motives as his loyalty
is with his own clan, or that his loyalty is only with himself, as he
already once put his own interests above the interests of the community.

Another option came to my mind: He need not be from Baruk-Ahzik. Maybe
he is from Mur-Kilad? And an agent of the Gorgon who in his hideout
celebrates as his puppet now controls one of the realms in the south... <eg>

>And as for humans not allowing rule.. there are elves (Tuarhievel) that could accept a human as interim leader (as in - the next decade or two). Sure there could be racist troubles, but that is more up to their campaign, and it shouldn`t (in any campaign) be allowed to overshadow the fun.:)
>
That is the major point that annoys lots of people in that Players
Secrets. Actually the only elf who choose to have that human female as
regent is the Prince Fhilereane himself. And the only thing that stops
the VERY VERY STRONG anti-human party lead by Rhuandice from killing
this whore on the throne and claiming the throne for a pure sidhelien
ruler is that she is pregnant with the child of Fhilereane. At least
that is the only reason I could see why they did not already assasinate
her. That the ex-wife of the Gorgon helps her must make her something
like Satan incarnate in the eyes of the elves... ;-)

>(On another `Xenophobic` note we have Elinie, with heathen assassins as leaders, and everyone is happy about that)
>
You can bet that not everybody is happy about that. And that warlike
neighbours like Ghoere can use that as a good excuse if they ever decide
to march east again - after all it´s for the good of the empire and
Haelyn, or not?

That the people of Elinie themselves do not rebel is understandable as
the now ruling Khinasi have overthrown a tyrant - just like Queen
Swordwraith did in Aerenwe. They are foreign, but they are heroes to the
populace who suffered under the tyrant.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Nikolai II]

Well, I might point out that I'm not really against forbidding everything, or forcing the players to play humans, as I mentioned above. And if it is allowed it should quickly fall down into bigotry and constant assassinations and wars, not giving any free time to do anything other than fighting and dying. (At least that is how it sounds in this thread).

I just wanted to show that options exist beyond the fundamentalist approach. If one wants Cerilia to have a flair of its own then total racial war might be fun, but if you just want to use it as a nice fantasy setting then that should (IMHO) be possible as well.

([_]

[ryancaveney]

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:

> but they do not cast divine spells as they do not worship gods.

IMO you have hold of the wrong end of the stick (tree branch :).

I don`t care what`s considered divine or arcane or whatever else --
IMO, if it`s a spell that affects plants, elves are good at casting it.
Everything else I reverse-engineer from there. Same thing goes for other
"natural world" type things (animals, meld into stone, etc.) plus illusion
and charm. I also take away or drastically alter the fire spells from the
standard druid list, since fire is much too dangerous to use near trees.

> If these "relationship" with trees is a racial thing, then your
> suggestion to limit the druid class to elves is not correct. Then you
> would have to add a racial ability, like e.g. "Hiding in trees" (as
> described in the novel Greatheart for the elves of Sielwode) or "Feel
> the emotions of trees" as elven racial abilitys.

On the contrary, I think it`s exactly the way to go -- along the lines of
the Savage Species concept, I think the best way to see the 3e PHB druid
class in Cerilia is precisely as the class instantiation of the Elf racial
type. Rather than fight over ECLs of templates, assign everything that
could be considered a Sidhelien racial ability to a "druid" class level,
reorder the existing class abilities a little (e.g., move Timeless Body
from 15th level to 5th, so it kicks in at age 25-30), and rename the class
Sidhe, not druid. Then treat priests of Erik as clerics, just like the
priests of all the other human gods, albeit with a druid-like spell list.
You can still *call* priests of Erik "druids", and still not use that word
to apply to elves, but IMO from the Cerilian POV the 3e PHB "druid" class
describes a typical Sidhe far better than a Rjurik religious leader.

> A druid would be able to let a tree grow faster and larger with his
> spells and one druid became the treant (Blood Enemies book)

I think human priests of Erik should *also* have tree-helping spells, and
would turn into treants if they could choose their bloodform, but I think
as a class they are basically the same thing as all other clerics (except
for spell selection and skill lists, which I think should be
differentiated for all religions anyway). What I regard as fundamentally
unacceptable is the notion that Cerilian elves are forbidden from casting
precisely those spells which strike me as by far the most thematically
appropriate, namely most of the druid list.


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:

> In the 3E draft as far as I understand the battlefield is still as
> small as in 2E (3X5) but now no stacking is allowed. This means every
> battle will be only a minor skirmish with most of the army in reserve
> when two large armies meet. In addition archers will be vulnerable
> and pikemen useless - archers can`t fire OVER pikemen as archers still
> can shoot only into the next square and pikemen can`t jump in front of
> the archers when the enemy`s cavalry charge arrives...

That`s exactly why in my personal homebrew modification of the war card
rules, when I reduced the stacking limit to just one I also greatly
increased the size of the battlefield (roughly 20x30 is the smallest I
ever use, and for battles with lots of units I just use progressively
bigger maps) and roughly tripled all ranges and movements: I essentially
take the old battlemap space to be a 3x3 group of spaces on my map (I
actually use hexes, so each old-style battlemap space converts roughly to
a 7-hex "circle" of radius one). This also allows me to introduce some
finer-scale differences: for example, pikemen in my system now properly
move even slower than all other heavy infantry, and thrown missile weapons
have a much shorter range than fired ones.


Ryan Caveney

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:36 AM

> As always, what exactly to do with Brenna is the hardest problem.

There have been number-based wizards out there. Numerancy might be the way
to go.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 1:10 PM

> Maybe they have a closer relation with trees (and I hope you
> don´t mean that in the sense Robinson Crusoe did ;-))
> but they do not cast divine spells as they do not worship gods.

Easily solved by making the druid an arcane spellcaster and his spell list
arcane.

Personally I prefer the sidhe to be elementalists who are able to draw from
the druidical spell list very liberally.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ryancaveney]

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> Easily solved by making the druid an arcane spellcaster and his spell
> list arcane. Personally I prefer the sidhe to be elementalists who
> are able to draw from the druidical spell list very liberally.

Sounds fine. Pretty much it`s all the same to me terminologically, just
so long as the Sidhelien maintain the proper areas of interest -- namely
living things, raw natural elements, charm and illusion.


Ryan Caveney

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[ConjurerDragon]

Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>In the 3E draft as far as I understand the battlefield is still as
>>small as in 2E (3X5) but now no stacking is allowed. This means every
>>battle will be only a minor skirmish with most of the army in reserve
>>when two large armies meet. In addition archers will be vulnerable
>>and pikemen useless - archers can`t fire OVER pikemen as archers still
>>can shoot only into the next square and pikemen can`t jump in front of
>>the archers when the enemy`s cavalry charge arrives...
>>
>That`s exactly why in my personal homebrew modification of the war card
>rules, when I reduced the stacking limit to just one I also greatly
>increased the size of the battlefield (roughly 20x30 is the smallest I
>ever use, and for battles with lots of units I just use progressively
>bigger maps) and roughly tripled all ranges and movements: I essentially
>take the old battlemap space to be a 3x3 group of spaces on my map (I
>actually use hexes, so each old-style battlemap space converts roughly to
>a 7-hex "circle" of radius one). This also allows me to introduce some
>finer-scale differences: for example, pikemen in my system now properly
>move even slower than all other heavy infantry, and thrown missile weapons
>have a much shorter range than fired ones.
>Ryan Caveney
>
This sounds good to me. So Archers can hide behind Pikemen and fire over
them, so that a general can again use both firepower and defence
combined :-)

If no stacking is allowed at all, that should be included in the draft
0.5 or whatever, at least as a variant.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Peter Lubke]

On Tue, 2003-04-22 at 14:13, Michael Romes wrote:
Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>In the 3E draft as far as I understand the battlefield is still as
>>small as in 2E (3X5) but now no stacking is allowed. This means every
>>battle will be only a minor skirmish with most of the army in reserve
>>when two large armies meet. In addition archers will be vulnerable
>>and pikemen useless - archers can`t fire OVER pikemen as archers still
>>can shoot only into the next square and pikemen can`t jump in front of
>>the archers when the enemy`s cavalry charge arrives...
>>
Yeah - unlimited stacking sucks. One per square sucks too.

>That`s exactly why in my personal homebrew modification of the war card
>rules, when I reduced the stacking limit to just one I also greatly
>increased the size of the battlefield (roughly 20x30 is the smallest I
>ever use, and for battles with lots of units I just use progressively
>bigger maps) and roughly tripled all ranges and movements: I essentially
>take the old battlemap space to be a 3x3 group of spaces on my map (I
>actually use hexes, so each old-style battlemap space converts roughly to
>a 7-hex "circle" of radius one). This also allows me to introduce some
>finer-scale differences: for example, pikemen in my system now properly
>move even slower than all other heavy infantry, and thrown missile weapons
>have a much shorter range than fired ones.
>Ryan Caveney
>
This sounds good to me. So Archers can hide behind Pikemen and fire over
them, so that a general can again use both firepower and defence
combined :-)

Ryan,
Does that include crossbows?

e.g. (from original D&D mass combat rules)
"Indirect Fire: Slingers, and archers (but not troops armed with
crossbows) may arch fire over the heads of intervening troops or other
obstacles not above 10 scale feet in height. The intervening object(s)
must be at least 3"(30 yards) distant from the missile troops and at
least the same distance from the target. Indirect fire reduces the range
of the firing unit by 25%, all such fire is considered to be at long
range, and any overhead cover will negate the effects, i.e. trees,
roofs, etc make indirect fire impossible."

Elevated terrain, such as archers on hilltops or hillsides can also arch
fire (as well as firing with greater effectiveness).

--
I only allowed two warcards to stack together, one under (behind) the
other. Morale and missile hits applied to both units equally (exception:
skirmishers failing morale), but a pike/archer combination has missile
capability and defense against cavalry. The stack must begin and end the
move stacked to be treated as a combined unit. Only 4 stacks, or 8 cards
to a battlefield - never had any battle greater than that, but would
have resolved it as two or more separate battles. Not very sophisticated
I know. Mounted units in a pair could move to the back, declining
engagement - or to the front, intercepting advancing units. My players
aren`t war-gamers - got to keep it simple. I applied terrain to more
than one square of the battlefield (but all terrain is the same type).

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[ryancaveney]

On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:

> Does that include crossbows?

Crossbows also have increased range (scaled up along with the other ranges
and movement rates), but I agree they are not eligible for indirect fire.

> I only allowed two warcards to stack together, one under (behind) the
> other. Morale and missile hits applied to both units equally
> (exception: skirmishers failing morale), but a pike/archer combination
> has missile capability and defense against cavalry.

Interesting. Not a bad first approximation.

> Mounted units in a pair could move to the back, declining
> engagement - or to the front, intercepting advancing units.

So you allow mounted units to move through allied units? That sounds
like a disaster waiting to happen, unit-cohesion-wise. Not the sort
of thing non-professional armies can manage safely.

> My players aren`t war-gamers - got to keep it simple.

Yeah, I sometimes have to run both sides -- but then, if the generals on
both sides happen to be NPCs (e.g., one is realm-ruler ally of the PC
temple regent, and the other is a major villain), that`s the DM`s job
anyway. However, since the system I`ve used in play (not the far more
detailed one I continue to tinker with for my own amusement) is basically
just war card mechanics on a much bigger map, I`ve found it easier for
players to see what`s going on, and seems nicely "more realistic" (and
more fun to command big armies) without really being any more complicated.


Ryan Caveney

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[Landen_Haesri]

Guys, one more question to add to the pot...

When we were playing, the elven regent of the Erebbanien took over the southernmost province of Roesone, Abbatuor. (Elf King- "Its my forest, damnit!")
Then we ran into a problem with investiture. Basically, the elf regent needed to do an investiture to take control of the occupied province. How would one do that, being as he is an elf? We weren't sure.

Oh, and Ryan, your war examples look good. I'll look into modifying those using your guidelines. If you've got more, please post 'em! :)

Charlie

[DanMcSorley]

On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Landen_Haesri wrote:
> Then we ran into a problem with investiture. Basically, the elf regent
> needed to do an investiture to take control of the occupied province.
> How would one do that, being as he is an elf? We weren`t sure.

I believe that according to the book of priestcraft, elves do it without
priests. Spend the GB and RP as though he were doing a normal investiture
ceremony, and presto it works.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Peter Lubke]

On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 06:15, daniel mcsorley wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Landen_Haesri wrote:
> Then we ran into a problem with investiture. Basically, the elf regent
> needed to do an investiture to take control of the occupied province.
> How would one do that, being as he is an elf? We weren`t sure.

I believe that according to the book of priestcraft, elves do it without
priests.

Lets make it a bumper sticker.

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[Landen_Haesri]

Guys~

Thanks for the information from everyone. You guys are a great reference source for puny ole' me. Here's how everything fares:

I've changed all of Aerenwe's sources back up to their full potential. That leaves some provinces as plains; elves *do* live in areas other than forests, right? Hmm. The wizard isn't getting the free sources; the elf king created a lieutenant whom we decided was allowed the sources that were freed up.

The dwarf (being a stubborn dwarf) decided to stay a dwarf. He still wants to be loyal to Baruk-Azhik (?), though, so we're trying to find a way for him to be all that at once. He also said he would be happy leading from behind the queen's daughter, using her as a front for the people. (BTW, the dwarf worships Moradin but respects Haelyn's temples as the High Priest and him are staunch allies). He still has his personal guard of 12 dwarven crossbowmen, however. They just won't leave.

The halfling high priest of Haelyn decided he wanted to be human instead. The turning point? "Well, if my girlfriend is drawing all of our characters, I don't want to be short." So now all the Haelyn's temples are happy.

The wizard is happy where she's at and, having gotten my email about that variation of Mass Destruction realm spell, is spending the next year or so in her laboratory for the new "Tsunami"-type Destructo spell. As DM, I'm paranoid. So are the other kings :)

Everything else is falling into place as I start up this PBeM as well. Of course, this adds for even more questions and problems, but I'll solve them as they come up.

Now, has anyone here used the spellcasting variations in Player's Option: Spells and Magic? I was intrigued by the Conditional magic for priests; was looking at the Preserver/Defiler option for mages. If a person who reads this has experience with these type of magical modifications, please let me know how they ran. Each are an interesting perspective of magic; the gods so close to their people that the position one is in affects the magical power one can harness, and with mages it seems natural that their magical energies come directly from the life around them. Is this too much? The players are interested in the changes too. Just wondering.

Again, thanks for the information. You guys are great.

Ciao!

Charlie

[Nikolai II]

Originally posted by Landen_Haesri

I've changed all of Aerenwe's sources back up to their full potential. That leaves some provinces as plains; elves *do* live in areas other than forests, right? Hmm. The wizard isn't getting the free sources; the elf king created a lieutenant whom we decided was allowed the sources that were freed up.


The elves used to live on the plains as well, but there the humans had an easier time beating them back. (And at first humans were granted plains, since they liked it so much more than the elves).

Maybe it is light forests? I recall there being forests with little source (5). Am I wrong?
Else go for the plains, keeps the map good-looking.:P

[ryancaveney]

On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Nikolai II wrote:

> Landen_Haesri wrote:
>
> > I`ve changed all of Aerenwe`s sources back up to their full
> > potential. That leaves some provinces as plains; elves *do*
> > live in areas other than forests, right? Hmm.

I would be strongly inclined to say no -- anywhere elves are still living
should definitely be changed to heavy forest IMO.

> The elves used to live on the plains as well, but there the humans had
> an easier time beating them back. (And at first humans were granted
> plains, since they liked it so much more than the elves).

I don`t seem to recall this being canon, but if it is I think it is a
misunderstanding of historical vegetation change on the part of the person
who wrote that. There are some places in the world which are naturally
plains, and some places in the world which are naturally forest; but these
regions tend to be immensely vast, and not really intermingled much at
all. Pretty much all of Europe and all of eastern North America each used
to be one huge forest -- essentially all the unforested areas now present
in those locations are the result of humans cutting down trees. One could
make similar "natural biome" maps for Cerilia, and what they would say is
this: except for the desert and associated steppe in western Khinasi,
certain high mountains (and perhaps their lees), and the glaciers at the
top of the continent, before the humans came nearly every single province
in Cerilia was of the Ancient Forest type. Even the deserts may be
largely caused by human activity -- on Earth, the primary driver of the
growth of the Sahara desert is livestock (goats) kept by humans. Less
long ago than the Masetian arrival is to the "present day" of the BR
books, northern Africa was the breadbasket of the Roman Empire!

In envisioning the map of Cerilia before the humans, at the very least you
ought to link up most of the smaller forests -- Tuarhievel, Sielwode, that
one province in Mhoried, the Erebannien and the Spiderfell I think all
used to be part of the same big forest. I don`t think the borders of the
Sielwode and the Spiderfell look like they do because the elves and the
Spider retreated into the forests -- I think they look like they do
because humans couldn`t go into those forests to cut them down. All of
Anuire used to be forest, and if the humans aren`t stopped, one day it
will all be plains; the PS of Talinie focuses strongly on this idea.

> Maybe it is light forests? I recall there being forests with little
> source (5). Am I wrong?

Ancient forest has source potential 9, light forest has source potential 7.

> Else go for the plains, keeps the map good-looking.:P

I think the map is the result of where the elves defended, not the cause
of it. Anywhere an elven court has continuously ruled since the coming of
humans ought to be heavily forested. In this case, the political changes
of your campaign IMO require a change to the map`s terrain types.


Ryan Caveney

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[darknightlost]

Since when does a change of politics equal a change of land scape? Maybe the elves are trying to grow a forest there and are having terible luck (fire, floods paricites or just bad soil ;) ) If the player wants to owne a plains area he has that right. Remeber that this is a group of players, no single person can really know what they will do or try, and any DM who tells his players 'no' is going to have some very dissapointed players. Just tell them it will be really hard and go from there. some of the best RP sessions I ever played are when my players tryed some thig I had not thought they would do and was completly contrary to the flow of the game. Once that starts, you'll be amazed at what they can do!
I say, 'as long as it's within the concept of the game, go for it!' , so obviously no High tech stuff, but other wise Why not? So they started a civil war... So they took over some one elses land... This is BirthRight, This is what the game is all about! Why does every thing have to fit a nice rule or law? Let havoc reign! Because that is what most players are to a world... Havoc!

[Landen_Haesri]

([_] Cheers to that!

;)

Charlie