Divine Elemental Planar Links.

[geeman]

The Elemental Control blood ability allows scions with derivations of
Anduiras, Basaia, Masela and Reynir to summon elementals from appropriate
planes of existence; air, fire, water and earth. There are three more
derivations, of course, that might have some sort of planar connection. If
we were to expand the blood ability for the remaining bloodlines anyone
have ideas to which plane the derivations of Brenna, Vorynn and Azrai might
apply to?

These need not be the four standard planes. Since we`re just speculating
planes of ooze, magma, lightning, etc. are all possible. Does one or the
other lend itself to those derivations? Azrai seems pretty obviously
connected to a Shadow plane, but I`d argue that earth might not be the
proper plane for Reynir and though there are aspects of sky to Anduiras`
portfolio, air might not be the most appropriate for that derivation. I`m
not at all adverse to completely realigning the derivations of the gods
should that make sense. Anyone have thoughts on this?

Gary

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[Shade]

Don't fix it if it ain't broke... ;)

Seriously though, I think I read something about this elsewhere. A netbook, perhaps. According to what I read, Azrai was affiliated with the Negative Energy Plane, Brenna with the Ethereal, and Vorynn with the Positive.

[Birthright-L]

Please spare us magma-para-elementals!

Andurias and air seems rather obvious - air being the traditional element of
nobles and kings. But I see no real need for an element for the other
bloodlines.

If we really want such conncetions how about:

Reynir - wood (à la OA)
Azrai - shadow (as proposed)
Brenna - money? Sera seems to be the god most associated with this plane, so
extra-planar associations seem wrong to me.
Vorynn - moon (per Seulune in FR)

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[geeman]

At 05:39 AM 3/28/2003 +0100, Shade wrote:

>Seriously though, I think I read something about this elsewhere. A
>netbook, perhaps. According to what I read, Azrai was affiliated with the
>Negative Energy Plane, Brenna with the Ethereal, and Vorynn with the Positive.

If you remember where you read that I`d be interested.

Azrai seems like he could have had more than one affiliation... which I
kind of like, honestly. There are a couple of neg/pos energy plane
creatures that could qualify for "elemental" summoning. They`d need to be
scaled a bit for the system I`m playing with, but that`s not that big a
problem.

Brenna still doesn`t really strike me as having any particular Inner Plane
association, so I may skip that derivation.

At 08:27 AM 3/28/2003 +0100, Starfox wrote:

>Andurias and air seems rather obvious - air being the traditional element
>of nobles and kings. But I see no real need for an element for the other
>bloodlines.

Maybe it`s just me. Air seems a rather insubstantial and flighty kind of
thing, not quite what I picture The Lawmaker manifesting. It doesn`t
_really_ matter, of course.

>If we really want such conncetions how about:
>
>Reynir - wood (à la OA)
>Azrai - shadow (as proposed)
>Brenna - money? Sera seems to be the god most associated with this plane, so
>extra-planar associations seem wrong to me.
>Vorynn - moon (per Seulune in FR)

Associating Reynir does free up the elemental plane of Earth for another
bloodline.... It seems most apt to describe Moradin than one of the
derivations, really, but I suppose one could connect it up with Brenna if
for no other reason than to round them all out.

Gary

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[ConjurerDragon]

Gary wrote:

> The Elemental Control blood ability allows scions with derivations of
> Anduiras, Basaia, Masela and Reynir to summon elementals from appropriate
> planes of existence; air, fire, water and earth. There are three more
> derivations, of course, that might have some sort of planar
> connection. If
> we were to expand the blood ability for the remaining bloodlines anyone
> have ideas to which plane the derivations of Brenna, Vorynn and Azrai
> might
> apply to?
> These need not be the four standard planes. Since we`re just speculating
> planes of ooze, magma, lightning, etc. are all possible. Does one or the
> other lend itself to those derivations? Azrai seems pretty obviously
> connected to a Shadow plane, but I`d argue that earth might not be the
> proper plane for Reynir and though there are aspects of sky to Anduiras`
> portfolio, air might not be the most appropriate for that derivation.
> I`m
> not at all adverse to completely realigning the derivations of the gods
> should that make sense. Anyone have thoughts on this?
> Gary

I would advice you NOT to have them summon elementals from the plane of
whatever.
Aebrynnis has and should not have connections to other planes, except
the shadowworld.
Better would be a rule, that was used in COG II, that summoned being
always had to be native to Aebrynnis.

In the case of Elemental Control I would suggest to summon e.g. an air
elemental that´s already there somewhere in the wind around you, or an
fire elemantal out of the campfire you built or from the rock you touch.

Extending the ability to derivation who did not have them before is not
desirable. The four natural elements are represented by four gods
derivations only and giving other derivations similar powers is making
them generic. Why had only Azrai and Anduiras Battlewise? Hey, give
Masela Battlewise on naval battles and Reynir in forests and Vorynn
under a full moon and Basaia when the sun is high... The sun is high?
Moses raising his arms praying and winning a battle - Basaia ought to
grant it as well... ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2003, Shade wrote:

> I think I read something about this elsewhere. A netbook, perhaps.
> According to what I read, Azrai was affiliated with the Negative
> Energy Plane, Brenna with the Ethereal, and Vorynn with the Positive.

I don`t know if you read about it elsewhere also, but I know you`ve read
it right here -- I`ve been suggesting this connection for years. Most
recently, I mentioned it only twelve days ago. =)


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2003, Gary wrote:

> If you remember where you read that I`d be interested.

Now you`ve hurt my feelings. ;) Actually, Azrai = Negative and Vorynn =
Positive strikes me as so obvious that lots of people should have thought
of it independently.

> There are a couple of neg/pos energy plane creatures that could
> qualify for "elemental" summoning.

Xag-Ya and Xeg-Yi are the only things which leap to my mind.

> They`d need to be scaled a bit for the system I`m playing with,

And what system is that?

> Brenna still doesn`t really strike me as having any particular Inner Plane
> association, so I may skip that derivation.

I was actually working on a post about this in response to a different
thread, so I suppose I`ll just have to finish that up. =)

> Starfox wrote:
> > Reynir - wood (à la OA)

Wood as an elemental plane separate from Earth? I suppose it would be
something more like an endless forest, rather than forever underground?
If you`re going to go that route, I`d say associate him directly with the
Prime Material! He could summon magically-pumped natural creatures
instead of elementals; in 3e perhaps celestial dire bears.

> > Brenna - money? Sera seems to be the god most associated with this
> > plane, so extra-planar associations seem wrong to me.

Brenna is *motion*, not money. Sera`s association with commerce
interprets Brenna in light of Brecht mercantilism: their favorite kind of
motion is the motion of money, goods and services.

> > Vorynn - moon (per Seulune in FR)

Yes, but is there a plane of "moonness"? IMO, if sun=fire, then moon &
magic (Vorynn`s portfolio) = positive energy.

> Associating Reynir does free up the elemental plane of Earth for
> another bloodline.... It seems most apt to describe Moradin than one
> of the derivations, really, but I suppose one could connect it up with
> Brenna if for no other reason than to round them all out.

Brenna is definitely not Earth. Since you don`t like Anduiras = Air, you
could give him Earth and give Air to Brenna.


Ryan Caveney

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[geeman]

At 10:16 AM 3/28/2003 -0500, Ryan Caveney wrote:

> > There are a couple of neg/pos energy plane creatures that could
> > qualify for "elemental" summoning.
>
>Xag-Ya and Xeg-Yi are the only things which leap to my mind.
>
> > They`d need to be scaled a bit for the system I`m playing with,
>
>And what system is that?

The Bloodline Point stuff I`ve mentioned a few times. Elemental Control
was one of the first blood abilities that I wrote up. It`s gone through a
little tweaking since then, but the basic power remains the same; a scion
with the ability can summon an elemental with 1 HD per BP he puts into the
ability--though I`m thinking now that should be 2HD/BP....

So to reflect the ability of a scion of Vorynn to summon a X-Y from the
plane of positive energy that monster would have to be "scaled" from 2HD to
18HD. Since Savage Species did exactly that kind of thing with the four
"standard" elementals it shouldn`t be terribly difficult to replicate.

> > Brenna still doesn`t really strike me as having any particular Inner Plane
> > association, so I may skip that derivation.
>
>I was actually working on a post about this in response to a different
>thread, so I suppose I`ll just have to finish that up. =)

Looking forward to it.

> > Starfox wrote:
> > > Reynir - wood (à la OA)
>
>Wood as an elemental plane separate from Earth? I suppose it would be
>something more like an endless forest, rather than forever underground?
>If you`re going to go that route, I`d say associate him directly with the
>Prime Material! He could summon magically-pumped natural creatures
>instead of elementals; in 3e perhaps celestial dire bears.

I was thinking he`d summon a "wood spirit" that animated a tree in a manner
similar to the treant/Liveoak spell. It would, however, have HD per the BP
spent on the ability and would need to be scaled appropriately. There`s an
enhancement to the blood ability description that allows scions to summon
elemental creatures other than elementals as long as they are of the
appropriate HD, so a scion with Reynir`s version of this ability could
"summon" various animate plants.

As a matter of fact, the description of the Plane of Wood and the idea that
a scion of Reynir would more aptly "animate trees" rather than summon an
earth elemental is what started the speculation about the association of
the remaining three derivations with the elemental planes.

Gary

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2003, Gary wrote:

> I was thinking he`d summon a "wood spirit" that animated a tree in a
> manner similar to the treant/Liveoak spell.

Oh! Yes, of course. I like it.

OTOH, I`ve got to say -- maybe it`s only Erik who`s so focused on trees,
and Reynir was more focused on just the dirt. Similarly, maybe it`s only
Haelyn who`s so keen on noble war and leadership; perhaps the original
Anduiras was just your standard generic sky god, so air would indeed be
more appropriate than it would if trying to assign elements to the living
gods. Actually, I think you`ve made up my mind for me: the old gods were
very primal forces, not much tied to everyday life, so they should have
pure elemental associations. The newer, once-human gods are the first
ones who should have philosophical aspects to their portfolios. E.g.,
Haelyn = law & justice and Cuiraecen = battle, but Anduiras = Air/Storm;
Avani = Reason and Laerme = Passion, but Basaia = Fire; Kriesha = Cruelty
and Belinik = Terror, but Azrai = Entropy (in the thermodynamic sense).


Ryan Caveney

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[geeman]

At 11:08 AM 3/28/2003 -0500, Ryan Caveney wrote:

>OTOH, I`ve got to say -- maybe it`s only Erik who`s so focused on trees,
>and Reynir was more focused on just the dirt. Similarly, maybe it`s only
>Haelyn who`s so keen on noble war and leadership; perhaps the original
>Anduiras was just your standard generic sky god, so air would indeed be
>more appropriate than it would if trying to assign elements to the living
>gods. Actually, I think you`ve made up my mind for me: the old gods were
>very primal forces, not much tied to everyday life, so they should have
>pure elemental associations. The newer, once-human gods are the first
>ones who should have philosophical aspects to their portfolios. E.g.,
>Haelyn = law & justice and Cuiraecen = battle, but Anduiras = Air/Storm;
>Avani = Reason and Laerme = Passion, but Basaia = Fire; Kriesha = Cruelty
>and Belinik = Terror, but Azrai = Entropy (in the thermodynamic sense).

Now that`s interesting. I`ve always assumed that the new gods took on
identical (or nearly so) portfolios and aspects to the ones they
supplanted, but there`s really no reason to make that assumption. In the
case of Azrai`s successors the portfolios they adopted are quite different
from the way he is described. That would indicate that the process of
apotheosis did not make the new gods carbon copies of the old ones. I
think there are some thematic reasons why the new gods would stay closer in
basic demeanor and demesne to the gods they replaced--mostly having to do
with the way Azrai`s bloodline is corrupting in such an unpredictable way,
while most of the "good" derivations remain more true to form--but that
doesn`t mean they would be _exactly_ like their predecessors.... I don`t
think I`d extend the thinking so far as to make the new gods very different
from the old ones, but some shifts here in there in emphasis, not to
mention the seemingly broader scope of the new gods` duties--some of them
seem to have more areas that they cover than is typical for D&D
deities--would be explained by such a thing.

Still, I think I`d like to keep the Reynir --> Wood link since it seems to
work so nicely. I might use something like the above, however, to
rationalize Brenna --> Earth.

The expanded bloodline derivation planar connections, BTW, is written up as
an optional rule for that blood ability with the original four described as
the "standard" Elemental Control. It really amounts to a few paragraphs of
additional text, so I don`t think it`ll be a problem. Particularly since
one of the enhancements for that blood ability is that one can spend a BP
to gain the ability to summon elementals from planes "adjacent" to ones
that the scion`s derivation gives him access to. Several posts on this
subject lead me to suspect that`ll offend the sensibilities of a few folks,
but I just think it`s such a cool mechanic in practice that I`m going to
keep it as is. It`d be easy enough for someone to strike out of the text
for their personal use.

Gary

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[kgauck]

Anduiras reflects the air aspect for the same reason that Zeus (and his
other Indo-European) forms does. The sky is the arena where other dieties
operate. The moon, the sun, the clouds, and the lightning all operate
within the sphere of the sky. If Anduiras/Haelyn is the king of the gods,
it can be seen by the fact that the other gods operate in the domain he
controls.

As for summoning, you could have scions of Anduiras control air elemental
forces, (as a sky phenomena) or you could have him able to attempt to
control (as a cleric) elemental creatures with the exception of the negative
plane.

Many (if not most) religions have different understandings of the top of the
earth and the below the surface of the earth. The same could be applied to
such elemental spheres. Reynir may have command over the surface of the
earth, where the living things are, and where earth joins sky with its rain
and sun. Wealth gods, like Pluto/Hades as well as the dwarven Dumathoin
have under-the-earth control where the precious metals and gems are. Stone
creatures in this case, might be better named ore creatures, and metal
creatures might be obviously copper, silver, gold, platinum, or even metals
from which the craftsmen work.

I also agree that the Azrai = Negative and Vorynn = Positive is a pretty
obvious source of elemental control. I`d be inclined to make both positive
and negavive creatures more magical than other planes, or than they might
appear in the texts of other settings.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 10:48 AM 3/28/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>Anduiras reflects the air aspect for the same reason that Zeus (and his
>other Indo-European) forms does. The sky is the arena where other dieties
>operate. The moon, the sun, the clouds, and the lightning all operate
>within the sphere of the sky. If Anduiras/Haelyn is the king of the gods,
>it can be seen by the fact that the other gods operate in the domain he
>controls.

Haelyn is described as the ruler of the gods in the RB, but that text is in
many ways Anuire-centric. The BoP goes into much greater detail regarding
how each of the gods is viewed culturally, and that text describes Haelyn
as "the principle deity of the Anuirean pantheon, and serves as the paragon
of a king. He is worshipped as the lord of courage and chivalry by noble
warriors in other regions of Cerilia." That indicates (as does the type of
temple holdings) that in other regions Haelyn is not seen as the king of
gods. The BoP further exemplifies this in the text regarding Erik which
says of the two primary Rjurik temples that "both believe in the supremacy
of Erik in the pantheon of the Rjurik." Sera is also described as "the
principal deity of the Brecht pantheon" and that "Avani is the principal
goddess of the Khinasi pantheon." Though the Masatians are mostly
destroyed as a people, Masela was likely primary to her "favored" people,
and Vorynn considered the most significant god by the Vos until Azrai
corrupted them.

In fact, aside from the sunburst on his coat of arms there`s very little
about Haelyn himself that is associated with the sky or air. He`s rumored
to have taken a bird form or of having caused a banner to fly against the
wind, but that`s not a lot. War, Law, Rulership are his primary
spheres. Strangely, his priesthood is given access to the air elemental
sphere, and the Elemental Control blood ability available to Anduiras`
derivation would provides a connection with that element, but there`s not
much to indicate that he controls the air himself. Avani and Rournil are
probably more closely associated with the sky and air.

It is, as Ryan pointed out, possible that the air aspect of Haelyn`s
worship is vestigial from Anduiras` portfolio. That`s pretty speculative,
of course, but it would seem to make sense, particularly in regard to the
Elemental Control blood ability since that comes direction from the worship
of the old god.

I`m starting to think that Vorynn`s bloodline might be better linked to the
plane of air and Anduiras to positive energy.

Gary

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[Trevyr]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Ryan B. Caveney

> OTOH, I`ve got to say -- maybe it`s only Erik who`s so focused on trees,
> and Reynir was more focused on just the dirt. Similarly, maybe it`s only
> Haelyn who`s so keen on noble war and leadership; perhaps the original
> Anduiras was just your standard generic sky god, so air would indeed be
> more appropriate than it would if trying to assign elements to the living
> gods. Actually, I think you`ve made up my mind for me: the old gods were
> very primal forces, not much tied to everyday life, so they should have
> pure elemental associations. The newer, once-human gods are the first
> ones who should have philosophical aspects to their portfolios. E.g.,
> Haelyn = law & justice and Cuiraecen = battle, but Anduiras = Air/Storm;
> Avani = Reason and Laerme = Passion, but Basaia = Fire; Kriesha = Cruelty
> and Belinik = Terror, but Azrai = Entropy (in the thermodynamic sense).


Ah, you beat me to it, I was about to argue essentially the same thing.

I think that Anduiras was much more a sky/weather god, which became
associated with kingship and nobility among the Andu, and when one of those
Andu arose to replace Anduiras, he was really more concerned with the
concept of nobility and justice. Thus the weather and sky part was
marginalized until Cuiraecen took over that portfolio. I suspect that you
could do the same thing with all the `child gods` that arose in the
centuries after Deismaar, that they`re taking up abandoned portfolios. As
you point out above, Basaia could have been a fire goddess, but Avani
abandoned the burning, passionate part of that in favor of light and reason,
and Laerme took up that portfolio. I suspect that Vorynn was a
Night/sleep/Dreams god, and that Ruornil focussed on the dreams/divination
angle, and became associated with the moon as a counter to the Shadow, which
abandoned the Night part of the portfolio for Eloele to pick up.

Brenna is the difficult one to fit into this picture. I can`t quite make out
what a "primordial motion" portfolio would be, other than chaos which is
generally thought to be Azrai`s domain. If we go with the money angle, we
have Brenna becoming an earth goddess (gold, gems and other things you dig
out of the ground), of which we already have too many. Her animal affinity
is with the cat-that-is-not-a-lion, which is not terribly helpful, either.

Mark V.

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2003, Mark VanderMeulen wrote:

> Ah, you beat me to it, I was about to argue essentially the same thing.

=)

> I think that Anduiras was much more a sky/weather god, which became
> associated with kingship and nobility among the Andu, and when one of
> those Andu arose to replace Anduiras, he was really more concerned
> with the concept of nobility and justice.

This to me is the crux of the whole thing: the old gods were never human,
but the new gods used to be normal humans themselves. Therefore there
ought to be a really big difference between pre-Deismaar gods and
post-Deismaar ones on anything related to a specifically *human* (ignoring
other sentients for the moment; sorry, Peter) experience as opposed to the
world at large. If the old gods created the world, then they were equally
associated with all parts of it; since the new gods were all formed from
the same, very specific tiny part of the world (humans), they ought to
reflect that specific focus in some very fundamental ways. The easiest
way I can see to do this is to say that the old gods` portfolios are
primarily natural/physical and only secondarily philosophical/ideological,
while the reverse is true for the new gods. When the new gods arose, they
were still thinking like the humans they so recently were, with very human
motives and perceptions. The old gods had nothing like that. What Haelyn
and Avani and Kriesha and the rest became gods of, IMO, is basically
whatever they were thinking about and inspired by when they died; which is
largely the stuff they were most famous for doing and caring about when
they were alive.

> Thus the weather and sky part was marginalized until Cuiraecen took
> over that portfolio. I suspect that you could do the same thing with
> all the `child gods` that arose in the centuries after Deismaar, that
> they`re taking up abandoned portfolios. As you point out above, Basaia
> could have been a fire goddess, but Avani abandoned the burning,
> passionate part of that in favor of light and reason, and Laerme took
> up that portfolio. I suspect that Vorynn was a Night/sleep/Dreams god,
> and that Ruornil focussed on the dreams/divination angle, and became
> associated with the moon as a counter to the Shadow, which abandoned
> the Night part of the portfolio for Eloele to pick up.

This is a really fascinating interpretation. Extremely well done! This
makes vast amounts of sense. It gives a logically compelling explanation
for the particular combinations of "child" gods which arose naturally to
fill the gaps left in the old elemental portfolios by the transition to
philosophical ones. The question now becomes, does it predict any
additional child gods which ought to come into being, based on any
remaining elemental ideas which are not well represented? It has
sometimes been remarked that Cerilia doesn`t really have a God of the Dead
the way most pantheons do; I would say that the Cold Rider could be seen
as precisely the figure who arose to take up that portion of Azrai`s mantle.

> Brenna is the difficult one to fit into this picture. I can`t quite
> make out what a "primordial motion" portfolio would be, other than
> chaos which is generally thought to be Azrai`s domain.

Yes, exactly. She`s always caused me by far the most confusion -- but
whenever I do manage to come up with an idea about her, it strikes me as
the coolest thought I`ve ever had about the Cerilian gods. =)

As a justification for the idea of primordial motion, I offer this: her
darkness and shadow associations can`t be the key to understanding her,
because Azrai has evil, death and secrets, Vorynn has the moon, and both
of them have magic; there`s just nowhere left to put her in the
traditional mythological associations of the night. IMO, the key to
understanding her is in the description of the Resistance blood ability:
"in the old myths, no one could lay a hand on Brenna unless she permitted
it." Brenna can dodge/evade anything and everything, even the other
elemental gods, so her essence must be movement itself. This also
explains her bloodline`s astonishingly powerful Travel ability, and even
to some extent shadow: no one can grab a shadow.

To me, in a sense, "primordial motion" is *time*. Time gods are usually
presented as being eternally unchanging, but that`s really the *opposite*
of time: unless something is changing, you can`t tell that time exists!
The very idea of change is what happens when you compare the same thing at
different times. In this sense, Brenna/Motion/Time is the world, she is
life itself: the four standard elements provide the raw material, Vorynn
gives the spark of life and Azrai embodies death and decay -- but without
Brenna/Motion/Time, all the other six would just sit there and not do
anything, because the very concept of doing involves changing things over
the passage of time. The existence of the Prime Material world requires
not only Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Energy and Entropy, but also Time/Motion
which allows these things to interact. Life/Nature needs them all.

She started out on the periphery of my thoughts about the nature of
deities in Cerilia, but she has become the center: the others are all
nouns -- only Brenna is a verb. Brenna is how the others happen.
Motion is tricky: it is *in* everything, but it is *of* nothing; or maybe
it`s the other way around. =) I can`t think of any RW mythologies that
had a god or goddess exactly like this, but I have come to believe that
all of them should -- perhaps this just means it is dangerous to let
physicists do theology. ;)

Of course, it seems that Brenna is also sort of the Trickster. Now, the
parallel is not exact because she`s split half the Raven/Loki/etc. job
with Azrai -- she does all the good randomness, and he does all the bad;
and this is then precisely where Sera acquires Luck for her portfolio. In
the old days, when something randomly good happened, it was because Brenna
beat Azrai; when something randomly bad happened, it was because Azrai
beat Brenna. This is why they both have a shadow association: things
which hide in the shadows are partially hidden and thus not predictable,
and tend to be revealed suddenly and unexpectedly as you move your torch.
Shadows surprise you when you stumble over what they hide; good surprises
are called Brenna, and bad surprises are called Azrai.

There`s another way to see the shadow angle, which is based on what
happens in the standard D&D cosmology when you try to assign a plane to
the idea of motion: you get Astral or Ethereal. Those are the planes one
goes to in order to get to any of the other planes -- and there`s really
nothing in either of them except for things in transit between other
planes, or things trying to hide. Shadow then arises because neither of
those planes is well-lit, both hide things, and the Ethereal is full of
shifting, shadowy forms. Also, within Cerilia, going through the Shadow
World is the big gambler`s means of secret, rapid travel. Shadows also
connect with the myth precis in Resistance: even on a bright, sunny day
where you can see clearly inside all shadows and fear of Azrai is nowhere
around, it remains physically impossible to grab a shadow.

> If we go with the money angle, we have Brenna becoming an earth
> goddess (gold, gems and other things you dig out of the ground), of
> which we already have too many.

And Earth is physically/mythologically the opposite of motion. I still
think money is entirely tangential: traveling between distant lands makes
you notice that things which are rare in one place are common in another,
and vice versa; trading what you have a lot of with you for what you don`t
have until you go there is a perfectly human interpretation of motion.
Therefore Sera is Commerce because commerce is what happens when humans
Move, and Sera is the successor of Brenna who was Motion. A parallel from
the most lovingly detailed mythology of any RPG, namely Glorantha: Orlanth
(the Storm) is considered to rule the Motion rune, as Air is the element
with which motion is usually most associated; but the god of Travel is
Issaries, whose portfolio also includes Trade and Diplomacy, because
talking and trading is just what happens whenever humans go anywhere.
Back to Cerilia: good luck also results in increased wealth, and shadows
also hide riches at times, so the associations already established above
continue to operate here also.

> Her animal affinity is with the cat-that-is-not-a-lion, which is not
> terribly helpful, either.

There`s something of a Bast/Freya/Inanna thing going on, I suppose...
which makes me realize that the most glaring omission from the old gods`
list is a fertility goddess. Earth`s Reynir is a male, and so is his
successor Erik. Who`s the Great Mother? Avani is Erik`s mate, so perhaps
Basaia goes with Reynir; but I like that pairing (earth + fire = drought)
a lot less than Masela (earth + water = mud & clay -> life & agriculture).
Brenna seems at first like a really big stretch, but if no one else fits,
it becomes perhaps another way to imagine her as Life: life is what you
get when you mix everything up and set it in motion.


Ryan Caveney

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 5:56 PM

> Of course, it seems that Brenna is also sort of the Trickster.

Maybe Brenna once had the plane of seeming, now collapsed into the SW.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Trevyr]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Ryan B. Caveney

> She started out on the periphery of my thoughts about the nature of
> deities in Cerilia, but she has become the center: the others are all
> nouns -- only Brenna is a verb. Brenna is how the others happen.
> Motion is tricky: it is *in* everything, but it is *of* nothing; or maybe
> it`s the other way around. =) I can`t think of any RW mythologies that
> had a god or goddess exactly like this, but I have come to believe that
> all of them should -- perhaps this just means it is dangerous to let
> physicists do theology. ;)


It makes sense. It is reasonable. But that`s entirely the reason that I have
problems with it. It requires a certain philosophical sophistication that
seems to make it unlikely that it was the SOURCE of the goddess in the minds
of primitive tribesmen. I would prefer something that made sense emotionally
as an object of worship, rather than something that made sense logically. I
can see why Anduiras was developed as an air god: giant storm clouds
towering miles over a sweeping plain, that`s powerful. The revelation of the
future through dreams and the patterns of the stars, that`s powerful. But I
can`t associate `pure` motion with anything equally powerful on an emotional
level. All the things that occur--rivers, winds, fire--are already
associated somewhere else.

I suppose part of the difference is that I am imagining that the gods
arose--at least in part--due to the imposition of human mind/belief on a
world where such things leave an impression which is rapidly filled with
spirit--i.e. the Shadow World/material world duality. While you are positing
that the gods existed prior to their human worshippers, and may well have
had a hand in their creation. I prefer to have humans create the gods, in
part because it helps explain why they did what they did at Deismaar. If
they were capable of creating races, when it was clear that Azrai was going
to prevail they should have just bugged out and said, "well, I can always
create a different race for myself over HERE." Impoverished flight is
usually considered a superior option to death. However, if the gods didn`t
have that option, if their contuniance was entirely dependant upon the
survival of their people, then flight is not an option.

> Of course, it seems that Brenna is also sort of the Trickster. Now, the
> parallel is not exact because she`s split half the Raven/Loki/etc. job
> with Azrai -- she does all the good randomness, and he does all the bad;
> and this is then precisely where Sera acquires Luck for her portfolio. In
> the old days, when something randomly good happened, it was because Brenna
> beat Azrai; when something randomly bad happened, it was because Azrai
> beat Brenna. This is why they both have a shadow association: things
> which hide in the shadows are partially hidden and thus not predictable,
> and tend to be revealed suddenly and unexpectedly as you move your torch.
> Shadows surprise you when you stumble over what they hide; good surprises
> are called Brenna, and bad surprises are called Azrai.

OK, now this makes more sense to me. A trickster goddess. Maybe I can work
with that. If we posit that the Brecht came originally from a mountainous
region, which I think makes sense, then perhaps Brenna is the one who
determines whether the falling rock hits you in the head, or next to you on
the path. Oh, oh! An earthquaker! One who is not earth, but causes the
movement of the earth. That could be extrapolated with time and
sophistication into a goddess of time and primordial motion. Cool. It might
even make sense, if the Brechts and the Rjuven were ancestrally related or
at least adjacent, for the Brechts to differentiate their earthshaker god
from the Rjuven`s earth god by making Earthshaker a female.

> And Earth is physically/mythologically the opposite of motion. I still
> think money is entirely tangential: traveling between distant lands makes
> you notice that things which are rare in one place are common in another,
> and vice versa; trading what you have a lot of with you for what you don`t
> have until you go there is a perfectly human interpretation of motion.
> Therefore Sera is Commerce because commerce is what happens when humans
> Move, and Sera is the successor of Brenna who was Motion. A parallel from
> the most lovingly detailed mythology of any RPG, namely Glorantha: Orlanth
> (the Storm) is considered to rule the Motion rune, as Air is the element
> with which motion is usually most associated; but the god of Travel is
> Issaries, whose portfolio also includes Trade and Diplomacy, because
> talking and trading is just what happens whenever humans go anywhere.
> Back to Cerilia: good luck also results in increased wealth, and shadows
> also hide riches at times, so the associations already established above
> continue to operate here also.

I completely see your point, and I really like it. I think it makes absolute
sense for Brenna. I just don`t see it as basal. I think she had to go
through a more primitive state first, but I completely agree that this is
the point she (or her people`s understanding of her) came to at the time of
Desimaar.

> > Her animal affinity is with the cat-that-is-not-a-lion, which is not
> > terribly helpful, either.
>
> There`s something of a Bast/Freya/Inanna thing going on, I suppose...
> which makes me realize that the most glaring omission from the old gods`
> list is a fertility goddess. Earth`s Reynir is a male, and so is his
> successor Erik. Who`s the Great Mother? Avani is Erik`s mate, so perhaps
> Basaia goes with Reynir; but I like that pairing (earth + fire = drought)
> a lot less than Masela (earth + water = mud & clay -> life & agriculture).
> Brenna seems at first like a really big stretch, but if no one else fits,
> it becomes perhaps another way to imagine her as Life: life is what you
> get when you mix everything up and set it in motion.

Well, I think it`s a mistake to think of the gods as a pantheon from the
beginning. I think what we have here is a series of tribal MONOTHEISMS which
became associated because of a common history--that of conflict with Azrai.
Thus, EACH god/goddess would have had to be a god of death/fertility/coming
of age, etc for their people. You can only subdivide the important godly
"services" when there are more than one available.

I find that one of the more attractive features of the BR pantheon is the
reversal of gender roles in the heavens. Where most games have an earth
goddess, Cerilia has an earth god. Where the moon is usually female, on
Cerilia he`s a male. Where the sun is usually a male, on Cerilia she`s a
female. Where the trickster is usually a male, on Cerilia she`s a female.

Mark V.

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2003, Gary wrote:

> Now that`s interesting. I`ve always assumed that the new gods took on
> identical (or nearly so) portfolios and aspects to the ones they
> supplanted, but there`s really no reason to make that assumption.

And I think the world is made more interesting if I don`t, and I am keen
on anything which makes it more interesting for me to play with. =)

> In the case of Azrai`s successors the portfolios they adopted are
> quite different from the way he is described. That would indicate that
> the process of apotheosis did not make the new gods carbon copies of
> the old ones.

Yes, this is certainly part of my thinking. Another important concern for
me is what nonhumans think of their bloodlines and how they got them -- it
is far easier for me to work elves, dwarves, goblins and so on into the
system if I regard the "elder gods" (no Cthulhu connections intended) as
less personal, more natural forces with as direct and simple an elemental
association as I can construct. In those forces the elves could believe,
without leading naturally to veneration of the long-dead humans whose
foolish and egotistical descendants claim have become new gods. To those
generic and unconscious forces, far more easily than highly structured and
specific cultural concepts like "lawful justice", I can assign alternate
names among dwarves, gnolls, orogs, etc. to the dieties and specific
cultural concepts of their own ancient (and still current, IMO) pantheons.

> mostly having to do with the way Azrai`s bloodline is corrupting in
> such an unpredictable way, while most of the "good" derivations remain
> more true to form

I would have rather said that`s Azrai`s bloodline corrupts in a highly
predictable way. All the awnsheghlien turn into things that physically,
almost literally, represent their psychologies. When Azrai`s blood gets
involved, you really can judge a book by its cover! Azrai himself may be
famous as the prince of lies, but his blood makes the awnsheghlien tell
truths about themselves they often would rather not admit. Every awnshegh
is a living caricature of its mortal deeds and goals, distilled to the
essence of its personality.

> I don`t think I`d extend the thinking so far as to make the new gods
> very different from the old ones, but some shifts here in there in
> emphasis,

I see one major shift in emphasis: from things of the natural world to
things of human culture; this leads me to all the rest. Sometimes it`s a
big change (air to justice), and sometimes it`s a small one (violence to
cruelty), but it`s all about going from literal objects to ideas with only
metaphorical associations with the previous elemental pantheon.

> not to mention the seemingly broader scope of the new gods`
> duties--some of them seem to have more areas that they cover than is
> typical for D&D deities

I think this is just reasonable deflation (in the economic sense).
FR has 57 billion gods for things as specific as Accidentally Cutting
Your Knee on Your Teeth While Playing Volleyball Outside in July; the
relatively much smaller number of Cerilian deities strikes me as a
conscious design decision to go the other way, and I welcome it.

But really, given that there are more new gods than old ones, and that
profiles seem to have been more subdivided than invented anew -- both
Haelyn and Cuiraecen come from Anduiras, and both Avani and Laerme come
from Basaia -- it seems to me that the newer generation of gods has
considerably smaller portfolios than the older. Consider that Masela in
some sense was god of everything that could be construed as having a
metaphorical association with the water, but Nesirie`s portfolio of just
the one emotion of grief is vastly more tightly constrained.

> Still, I think I`d like to keep the Reynir --> Wood link since it
> seems to work so nicely. I might use something like the above,
> however, to rationalize Brenna --> Earth.

Please don`t make Brenna Earth. Air, Water and Fire all have motion
connotations, but Earth has none. Well, except for earthquakes, but I
think we should attempt to avoid going there.

> one of the enhancements for that blood ability is that one can spend a
> BP to gain the ability to summon elementals from planes "adjacent" to
> ones that the scion`s derivation gives him access to.

I rather like this. Certainly Anduiras getting lightning as well as air
is a good thing, but smoke and cold seem a bit off, somehow; I`m not sure
yet. Anyway, all of the "good guys" should be leery of going "down" --
the negative quasiplanes (vacuum, dust and suchlike) are adjacent to
Azrai`s corruption, so perhaps excessive contact with them risks tainting
your blood to his dark derivation!


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2003, Mark VanderMeulen wrote:

> It makes sense. It is reasonable. But that`s entirely the reason
> that I have problems with it.

What a fascinating objection! Thank you, I think. =)

> It requires a certain philosophical sophistication that seems to make
> it unlikely that it was the SOURCE of the goddess in the minds of
> primitive tribesmen.

Oh, yes, absolutely.

> I would prefer something that made sense emotionally as an object of
> worship, rather than something that made sense logically.

Huh. OK, I suppose I could see that.

> I suppose part of the difference is that I am imagining that the gods
> arose--at least in part--due to the imposition of human mind/belief on a
> world where such things leave an impression which is rapidly filled with
> spirit--i.e. the Shadow World/material world duality.

This is where I see the newer gods coming in, and where in some sense
Deismaar is mythically necessary as the transformative event to move the
gods from the old ways of thinking and being to the new ways. Water and
earth and air and such existed long before there were humans to worship
them; but it took a sentient mind to make the metaphorical leap that
associates the thing "light" with the idea "enlightenment".

> While you are positing that the gods existed prior to their human
> worshippers, and may well have had a hand in their creation.
> I prefer to have humans create the gods,

OK, in part I agree completely with you and in part I think the opposite.
I am in general very sympathetic to (indeed, enthusiastic about) the idea
that gods are created by human belief; but there is a bit more to it than
that, since the primal forces which shaped the universe at least existed
before there was sentient life, whether or not they created it as such.
I personally find the idea that elves with the power to rule domains
ultimately got their bloodlines from human belief in strange supernatural
beings to be really icky; and indeed I believe bloodlines must have
existed long before Deismaar, since there were massive, powerful empires
long before it, which in BR terms could only have been ruled if RP could
be collected. But even ignoring that, there is a way, I think, to satisfy
both of us here. Let us say there always were seven primal forces of
nature, but only human belief and worship gave them texture and
consciousness. This can help explain the strange hodgepodge of Brenna`s
associations -- there was always an entity out there which corresponded to
the sophisticated concept of time and primordial motion, but human worship
of tricksterness and luck and earthquakes and such were the first things
which "stuck" to it (and made _it_ into _her_) rather than to the other
six entities of more obvious contexts. In all cases, the personalities of
the entities were formed by the thoughts of their worshippers; but the
fundamental concepts existed long before, and form the foundation atop
which all the human ideas are layered. Is that an acceptable compromise?

> in part because it helps explain why they did what they did at
> Deismaar. If they were capable of creating races, when it was clear
> that Azrai was going to prevail they should have just bugged out

I see it another way -- they were always fighting Azrai, and they created
races as part of the battle, to help them fight him. There was always
going to be a climactic confrontation, and they figured the one that
happened was actually their best chance of victory. If they had "bugged
out" and left him in command of all of his races (orogs and gnolls and
goblins and such) with time to consilidate his power, then they`d never be
able to beat him. They would always be opponents, and they could not let
up on the pressure or they would surely lose. Better to gamble on victory
now than seek short-term safety at the price of certain defeat in the end.

Yes, this conflicts with my suggestion above about how the beliefs of
humans imparted intentionality to the gods, so I am trying to have it both
ways. I`m being confusing here because I`ve actually got at least three
totally separate cosmologies wheeling in my mind with the same seven
labels reused for completely different kinds of things, and I`ve been
trying to talk about them all at once. I`m doing this in an attempt to
minimize the biggest differences between the way I most prefer to see
Cerilia and what the consensus of the list (or at least the original
rules) seems to be. I want to keep some confusion in order not to chase
away people who don`t agree with some of my wilder theories, because what
I`ve been saying about Brenna is independent of them. While it is
possible to to just say "I have an answer to all the objections you`ve
proposed; take whichever subset you like best," and to go into my variant
world histories in full detail would take us very far afield, let me
summarize the other parts of my Cerilian theology by saying that I find it
useful to view the primordial force = source of the bloodline, the
evolution of human religious belief over time, and the creators of the
human races who led them into battle at Deismaar as really three separate
sets of things, though ones with natural associations across the sets.

> "well, I can always create a different race for myself over HERE."
> Impoverished flight is usually considered a superior option to death.

Sure -- but maybe they thought they could win! They almost did, after
all; Deismaar was basically a tie. Actually, given how powerful Azrai had
been before it, and how much stronger he seemed about to become, maybe the
sacrifice the other six gods made was worth it -- maybe they really did
win. Azrai was prevented from dominating everything, which was exactly
the primary objective of the other six.

> if the gods didn`t have that option, if their continuance was entirely
> dependant upon the survival of their people, then flight is not an option.

True; but IMO that`s not the only reason they might have decided to fight.
And since they had hand-picked successors ready to assume their jobs and
protect their people, maybe they decided self-sacrifice was the best plan,
to ensure that Azrai would no longer be the main danger.

> perhaps Brenna is the one who determines whether the falling rock hits
> you in the head, or next to you on the path.

I like this image! =)

> Oh, oh! An earthquaker! One who is not earth, but causes the
> movement of the earth.

Yes, that`s the only way movement ever gets associated with earth (well,
that and mudslides and sinkholes, but all are natural disasters).

> That could be extrapolated with time and sophistication into a goddess
> of time and primordial motion. Cool. It might even make sense,

*grin* Exactly! Or, as I suggested above, there always was an entity of
time and primordial motion, which eventually became a goddess when humans
started to worship (or at least propitiate) whatever it was that caused
earthquakes and luck and commerce. That worship energy (which someone on
this list -- Morg? -- recently called "faith juice") went out into the
cosmos, and found its way to the most appropriate entity: primordial time.
As it fed upon this continuing stream of energy, it gradually acquired the
suite of personality characteristics the humans worshiping it thought it
should have. Once they had fed it enough for it to acquire
self-awareness, it became interested in its food source and began to act
in such a way as to ensure and increase the food supply. This leads to
another theory of why Deismaar was fought: maybe the entities didn`t need
to, but their humans wanted them to, because their humans feared Azrai.

> if the Brechts and the Rjuven were ancestrally related or at least
> adjacent, for the Brechts to differentiate their earthshaker god from
> the Rjuven`s earth god by making Earthshaker a female.

Yes, this makes sense. It may also be tied into both the current
neighborliness of the two peoples, and the deep theological/philosophical
division between the extremely urban and urbane Brecht and the extremely
rural and rustic Rjurik. They are the proverbial two sides of the same
coin: connected, but still opposites.

> I completely see your point, and I really like it. I think it makes
> absolute sense for Brenna.

Thank you.

> I just don`t see it as basal. I think she had to go through a more
> primitive state first, but I completely agree that this is the point
> she (or her people`s understanding of her) came to at the time of
> Desimaar.

I`ve now explained why I think time and primordial motion can actually be
viewed as a more primitive state. As to the people`s understanding, I
disagree -- this level of sophistication was probably never achieved by
any except the most esoteric religious philosophers. It is probably today
maintained only by certain priests of Avani whose committment to knowledge
is expressed by specialization in the history of religion, some of the
earliest and nearly forgotten texts of Sera`s faith, and perhaps some of
the older and more experienced wizards who have attempted to explore the
"physics" of the bloodlines. The common folk probably always thought of
Brenna as basically just a mixture of how Sera and Eloele are seen now; at
least they almost surely have that limited an understanding 1500 years later.

> Well, I think it`s a mistake to think of the gods as a pantheon from
> the beginning. I think what we have here is a series of tribal
> MONOTHEISMS which became associated because of a common history--that
> of conflict with Azrai. Thus, EACH god/goddess would have had to be a
> god of death/fertility/coming of age, etc for their people. You can
> only subdivide the important godly "services" when there are more than
> one available.

Yes, this is of course completely true, and I think I have made this very
argument myself on more than one occasion. Thank you for reminding me;
I`ll stop complaining about "missing" gods now.

> I find that one of the more attractive features of the BR pantheon is
> the reversal of gender roles in the heavens.

There is something to this. The religious system of Cerilia is clearly
far more consciously planned than most pantheons, and it does indeed have
some very pleasantly refreshing touches.

> Where the sun is usually a male, on Cerilia she`s a female.

This the Japanese have -- Amaterasu-o-mi-kami is the sun: she is the queen
of all the forces of nature, and the chief diety of the Shinto pantheon.
But yes, it is quite rare, and the moon and earth as men I think is even
rarer; is all three gender-reversals at once perhaps unique?


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> Maybe Brenna once had the plane of seeming, now collapsed into the SW.

What exactly do you mean by "the plane of seeming"?
It sounds intriguing, but I don`t quite get it yet.


Ryan Caveney

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[Shade]

At 10:06 AM 3/28/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, 28 Mar 2003, Shade wrote:
>
>> I think I read something about this elsewhere. A netbook, perhaps.
>> According to what I read, Azrai was affiliated with the Negative
>> Energy Plane, Brenna with the Ethereal, and Vorynn with the Positive.
>
>I don`t know if you read about it elsewhere also, but I know you`ve read
>it right here -- I`ve been suggesting this connection for years. Most
>recently, I mentioned it only twelve days ago. =)

That must have been it, then. :)

That said, I agree with Michael. There`s no need for it. We don`t want the
bloodlines to be different flavors of the same thing. Giving every
bloodline an associated element would be making them generic.

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 12:09 PM


> Haelyn is described as the ruler of the gods in the RB, but that text is
in
> many ways Anuire-centric. The BoP goes into much greater detail regarding
> how each of the gods is viewed culturally, and that text describes Haelyn
> as "the principle deity of the Anuirean pantheon, and serves as the
paragon
> of a king. He is worshipped as the lord of courage and chivalry by noble
> warriors in other regions of Cerilia." That indicates (as does the type
of
> temple holdings) that in other regions Haelyn is not seen as the king of
> gods.

I happen to disagree that this evidence results in this conclusion. Just
because a god is the king of the gods does not mean that he needs be the
most important or the most relevant in every community. Rather Haelyn
remains in every culture the god of kingship, and the values of kingship and
the nobility which is part of monarchial order. In other cultures he may be
reduced to his core of noble virtues (including courage and chivalry) and
only the nobles and rulers pay him much notice. Other gods support the
broader culture, but all the gods have a role in all the cultures. I would
argue that in all cultures, Haelyn is the prefered patron of investiture of
provincial and law holdings. In all cultures Sera is the prefered patron of
guild investitures, and so forth. Part of the difference is that in Anuire
the local priest of Haelyn is a very influential figure, while in other
realms he is an obscure figure, known and appreciated only among devotes of
courage and codes.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 11:55 PM


> What exactly do you mean by "the plane of seeming"?
> It sounds intriguing, but I don`t quite get it yet.

The whole illusiory componant of the SW may have once been part of a
seperate plane of seeming, a more benign plane of deception, trickery, and
false perceptions. But Diesmaar may have collpased the once distinct plane
of seeming into the present Shadow World.

Even if one decides this didn`t happen, some sages can speculate that maybe
it did. Not everything scholars claim is true, after all.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 12:19 AM

> That said, I agree with Michael. There`s no need for it. We don`t want the
> bloodlines to be different flavors of the same thing. Giving every
> bloodline an associated element would be making them generic.

Supposing that just lacks imagination, IMO. Associating a god with an
element doesn`t require that the association always works in the same
predictable way (which isn`t what generic means, BTW). This association
could involve summoning, control of creatures, spellcasting (lightning
spells for Cuiraecen, not Belinik), or granted powers.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 2:43 PM

> All spells with elemental aspects should be rewritten to match the
> element of the diety in question, so Cuiraecen should always be
> lightning, Kriesha always cold, etc.

For most of the re-writing here, we`re really only talking about the
descriptors.

> The spell shouldn`t be called "flame" strike on her or most spells
> lists, either -- only Avani and Laerme (who probably shouldn`t
> have such a spell at all, anyway) would have flames in their spells.

I could see Laerme`s priests castings such spells, but only when their
passions are enflamed. A fallen comrade, a hated enemy, or the preservation
of beauty mighy be good causes for powerful offensive spells. As a DM`s I`d
be inclined to halve the potency of Laerme`s offensive spells of a
destructive nature outside of these parameters. Something about there being
no vengence like a woman scorned, or something along those lines.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ryancaveney]

On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> spellcasting (lightning spells for Cuiraecen, not Belinik),

Yes, this is one "flavor" aspect about which I feel quite strongly.
Even if the spell lists are not as thoroughly differentiated between
religions as I would prefer, some elemental spell descriptions just need
to be changed faith-by-faith. I have no problem with priestesses of
Kriesha having a destructive spell with the general damage, area of
effect, etc. characteristics of Flame Strike, but it must under no
circumstances appear to the viewer in the game world as having anything to
do with flames as such -- it should be snow and ice and bitter wind, since
Kriesha is cold, the opposite of fire. The spell shouldn`t be called
"flame" strike on her or most spells lists, either -- only Avani and
Laerme (who probably shouldn`t have such a spell at all, anyway) would
have flames in their spells. All spells with elemental aspects should be
rewritten to match the element of the diety in question, so Cuiraecen
should always be lightning, Kriesha always cold, etc. Some are not at all
obvious (what`s Sera`s element, if any?), but any place it is, we can at
least make it consistent.


Ryan Caveney

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[Shade]

At 11:01 AM 3/29/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
>Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 12:19 AM
>
>> That said, I agree with Michael. There`s no need for it. We don`t want the
>> bloodlines to be different flavors of the same thing. Giving every
>> bloodline an associated element would be making them generic.
>
>Supposing that just lacks imagination, IMO. Associating a god with an
>element doesn`t require that the association always works in the same
>predictable way (which isn`t what generic means, BTW). This association
>could involve summoning, control of creatures, spellcasting (lightning
>spells for Cuiraecen, not Belinik), or granted powers.

That`s true. I think the discussion is interesting, especially the
theological and cultural arguments, but I`m not in favor of adding an
"elemental control" ability to each bloodline.

In a lot of ways the other gods are already represented. Azrai`s link to
the Negative Energy Plane is most obvious, with abilities like Wither Touch
and the like.

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[Trevyr]

On Behalf Of Ryan B. Caveney

Some are not at all
> obvious (what`s Sera`s element, if any?), but any place it is, we can at
> least make it consistent.


Probably sonic damage.

Mark V.

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[kgauck]

I like the idea of developing the divine elements and damage descriptors.
I`ll throw in my two cents.

First off, I`ll comment on what Ryan has put together. First off, I agree
with his obvious catagory. I prefer poison for Eloele. For Nesirie, I`d go
with force in offensive spells in which the force was obviously a blast of
high pressure water. Spells like wall of force would be out for such a
derivation. For non-offensive spells, I`d go with ice (not for its cold,
but its water), so wall of ice makes the most sence in this context.
Likewise Sera: sonic damage is fine (though I`d like to hear innovative
alternatives) but metals make for nice non-offensive spells. Metalic
phenomena would appear polished and precious. BTW, before anyone thinks I
don`t know which spells are useable by clerics, you should consider that the
PHB spell lists are not universal, especially once I start devising unique
spell lists for clerics. Nevertheless these examples should be clear enough
to make sense.

> Erik gets Sonic for two reasons.

Sonic is a nice enough set of rules for Erik`s power, but I`d prefer some
kind of positive life-force energy which has the properties you describe.
The thing about sonic energy is that it can be combated by bards, silence,
and the like, and unless we think that Erik`s power is wielded by song (not
neccesarily a bad idea), its probabaly not sonic, per se.

> Nesirie is most closely associated with grief, so it is appropriate
> that her attack form should be that of a keening wail.

I like this, but not as much as I like blasts of water. This does raise the
question of how many kinds of attacks make sense. I`d think that every god
would have its prefered spell descriptor (used for substitution when dealing
with inappropriate desriptors), accepted descriptors (no need to substitue)
and forbidden descriptors (should substitue).

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ryancaveney]

On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> For most of the re-writing here, we`re really only talking about the
> descriptors.

Yes, exactly. It`s just flavor text, but IMO it`s important flavor text.

> I could see Laerme`s priests castings such spells, but only when their
> passions are enflamed. Something about there being no vengence like a
> woman scorned, or something along those lines.

Interesting! I rather like this. Very reminiscent of the Divine Wrath
blood ability, and seems distinctly appropriate.


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

I wrote:

> > what`s Sera`s element, if any?

On Sat, 29 Mar 2003, Mark VanderMeulen wrote:

> Probably sonic damage.

OK, I could buy that. Now let`s try to make a complete table:

Obvious

Avani Fire
Cuiraecen Lightning
Kriesha Cold
Laerme Fire

Unclear

Belinik Acid
Eloele Acid (Poison?)
Erik Sonic
Haelyn Lightning
Nesirie Sonic
Ruornil Force (like Magic Missile)
Sera Sonic


My reasoning for the unclear cases:

Belinik gets acid because Azrai`s attack element should have been acid,
and Belinik isn`t particularly creative. ;) It also shouldn`t be cold,
because not only is that already claimed by Kreisha, it really isn`t that
useful in Vosgaard, because almost all the animals, monsters and such one
has to fight there are resistant -- or even completely immune -- to cold.
Similarly, he shouldn`t have fire because that`s too useful in Vosgaard
for nonviolent purposes (cooking, signalling, not freezing to death).

Eloele gets acid because it`s the most thiefly: silent, dark, can be used
to eat through locks. If we were to go outside the 3e standard five
combat elements, poison would be an even better fit: doesn`t do locks, but
does kill people without leaving any visible indication of why; also, it
fits the thiefly use of envenomed weapons for backstabbing.

Erik gets Sonic for two reasons. One, earth is associated with
impact: in fact, one way to make his attack spells unique is to have them
literally hurl small boulders! Two, sonic attacks hurt trees least of
all the five standard forms: acid and ice are directly harmful and can
have lingering effects, while fire and lightning are directly very harmful
and can start secondary fires.

Haelyn gets lightning because Anduiras`s attack element should have been
lightning, and Haelyn is very traditional. Also, in many mythologies,
lightning is the typical weapon of the ruler of the gods / god of rulership.

Nesire gets sonic by process of elimination. Water is typically assigned
ice or acid as attack elements, but those are the ones most closely
associated with Azrai and his champions who destroyed her people. She`s
clearly not fire or lightning, so that leaves sonic. Having arrived at
that conclusion, I have a more direct justification as well: Nesirie is
most closely associated with grief, so it is appropriate that her attack
form should be that of a keening wail.

Ruornil I assigned pure magical force, as found in spells like Magic
Missile. This makes his attack spells the most powerful (there are no
Resist/Endure/Protection spells against this "element"), but since he is
really a wizard and wizards in general are better at destructive spells
than priests, that is acceptable to me. I picked pure force because it`s
exactly what I think Vorynn`s attack element should have been, and it ties
in perfectly with Ruornil having the most direct connection to mebhaighl
of any of the gods: his attack should be the "rawest" form of magical
energy available/imaginable.

Sera gets sonic because Mark suggested it. =) I agreed because she
doesn`t really seem to fit any of the others, and sound could go with bad
luck (pianos dropping on you from a great height, as in the cartoon
cliche). Also, as mentioned for Erik, it could be seen as doing the least
collateral propery damage, and it is important to her to protect wealth.


While we`re at it, let`s do the old gods, too:

Obvious

Anduiras Lightning
Basaia Fire

Unclear
Azrai Acid / Unholy
Brenna ???
Masela Cold
Reynir Sonic / Impact
Vorynn Force / Holy


Azrai could have acid; or we could give him direct Negative Plane energy
so that acid could be assigned to Brenna, who doesn`t have much of
anything which seems right.

Brenna is deeply confusing, as ever. Lightning and fire are too flashy,
but any of sonic, ice and acid could work for her. I`d like to have all
seven of the original gods be different, so since sonic and ice are pretty
well taken that leaves pushing Azrai off of acid as mentioned above.
Another option is to try to derive something directly from "time and
primordial motion", which seems to imply an aging attack; of the standard
forms, acid is the closest to this -- or we could just leave it at aging.

Masela gets ice because it is standard for water, and there doesn`t seem
to be anything better, but I`m not really very excited by it, either.

Reynir gets sonic for the same reasons Erik does; actually, for Reynir the
idea of whacking people with boulders or burying them in dirt (suffocation
attack?) sounds even more appropriate than for his successor.

Vorynn gets direct Positive Plane energy, which is basically magic force.


Comments?


Ryan Caveney

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[Birthright-L]

Impact doesn`t do subdual damage by default. Actually, it is not a standard
damage type at all.

Subdual damage is simply called `subdual`, and has it`s own specified
effects. For example, constructs and undead are immune to it.

/Carl

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[Trevyr]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Ryan B. Caveney

> Obvious
>
> Avani Fire
> Cuiraecen Lightning
> Kriesha Cold
> Laerme Fire
>
> Unclear
>
> Belinik Acid
> Eloele Acid (Poison?)
> Erik Sonic
> Haelyn Lightning
> Nesirie Sonic
> Ruornil Force (like Magic Missile)
> Sera Sonic

If you wanted to go with Impact as a type of damage (deals subdual damage),
that might make sense for both Erik and Nesirie, given their respect for
life. Water is also semi-associated with impact (I seem to remember a
"Waterball" spell somewhere) but this is kind of weak.

> Nesire gets sonic by process of elimination. Water is typically assigned
> ice or acid as attack elements, but those are the ones most closely
> associated with Azrai and his champions who destroyed her people. She`s
> clearly not fire or lightning, so that leaves sonic. Having arrived at
> that conclusion, I have a more direct justification as well: Nesirie is
> most closely associated with grief, so it is appropriate that her attack
> form should be that of a keening wail.

I find that a bit of a stretch, but I agree that both cold and acid are
problematic for Nesirie. Neither seem to really fit her personality. If I
were to get really creative, I might suggest some sort of emotional attack
("Melancholyball?") but that starts fiddling with the boundaries between
invocation and enchantment. Probably best to leave that alone.

> Ruornil I assigned pure magical force, as found in spells like Magic
> Missile. This makes his attack spells the most powerful (there are no
> Resist/Endure/Protection spells against this "element"), but since he is
> really a wizard and wizards in general are better at destructive spells
> than priests, that is acceptable to me. I picked pure force because it`s
> exactly what I think Vorynn`s attack element should have been, and it ties
> in perfectly with Ruornil having the most direct connection to mebhaighl
> of any of the gods: his attack should be the "rawest" form of magical
> energy available/imaginable.

Makes sense to me.

> Sera gets sonic because Mark suggested it. =)

Ah, the power I wield!

I agreed because she
> doesn`t really seem to fit any of the others, and sound could go with bad
> luck (pianos dropping on you from a great height, as in the cartoon
> cliche). Also, as mentioned for Erik, it could be seen as doing the least
> collateral propery damage, and it is important to her to protect wealth.

I thought sound because it is the opposite of silence, which is related to
stillness, which is the opposite of motion. It seemed the type of damage
that was most directly movement-related.

> While we`re at it, let`s do the old gods, too:
>
> Obvious
>
> Anduiras Lightning
> Basaia Fire
>
> Unclear
> Azrai Acid / Unholy
> Brenna ???
> Masela Cold
> Reynir Sonic / Impact
> Vorynn Force / Holy
>
<snip>
> Masela gets ice because it is standard for water, and there doesn`t seem
> to be anything better, but I`m not really very excited by it, either.

Actually, I`ve always liked the acid/water pairing better than the
cold/water pairing, so my tendency would be to give acid to Masela. That
would give cold to Azrai, which is not great given his association with
snakes, but at least corresponds with darkness (night, caves, Shadow World)
and is the force least associated with life-giving and useful properties
(except maybe lightning, but that`s already assigned). We`re left with sonic
for Brenna, and impact for Reynir.

Neither version is without difficulties. I suppose if you didn`t want to go
with force for Vorynn it might make most sense to give him cold, since
altitude is associated with cold, and Vorynn is associated with the moon,
which hangs up there in the sky...

Mark V.

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 6:22 PM

> Oh, as for lightning`s life-giving properties: there are some scientists
> who think that life on earth began when a bolt of lightning struck a
> pool of water containing the right mix of sugars and proteins [...]
> Certainly all nerve and muscle function is electrical in nature.

And Frankenstein (Its Alive!) Actually I think the Binman owes something to
this as well.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ryancaveney]

On Sun, 30 Mar 2003, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> I prefer poison for Eloele.

I do too. I only mentioned acid as the best pick from the five listed in
the 3e Endure Elements spell description, from which we seem to be heading
farther and farther away; I have no trouble with this, since I think
adding poison, crushing, negative and positive energy, etc. to it, and
indeed generalizing and combining basically all the elemental attack and
defense spells in the whole PHB, is where I want my magic system to go.

> For Nesirie, I`d go with force in offensive spells in which the force
> was obviously a blast of high pressure water.

Sure; a water version of a line area spell like Lightning Bolt is a very
nice fire hose. I`d have it extinguish normal fires as a side effect, too.

> [Nesirie:] wall of ice makes the most sence in this context.
> [Sera:] metals make for nice non-offensive spells.

Agreed! Thanks for pointing out I`d forgotten to consider that kind of
spell. If we`re fixing elemental associations, we should fix them all.

> Likewise Sera: sonic damage is fine (though I`d like to hear innovative
> alternatives) but Metalic phenomena would appear polished and precious.

Impact damage as delivered by a large pile of coins falling from the sky?
Or perhaps piercing damage from a cloud of shiny metal flechettes?
Poison is also possible here, given the biological effects of heavy metals
like lead, mercury and arsenic; similarly, she could even use fire, as
sodium explodes into flame, and metals in general handle extreme heat
rather better than many other materials do. I think I like the spray of
metal shards best, though it seems a bit too science-fictiony.

> BTW, before anyone thinks I don`t know which spells are useable by
> clerics, you should consider that the PHB spell lists are not
> universal, especially once I start devising unique spell lists

Oh, definitely. I am also interested in doing this for wizards. I like
the Rolemaster setup in which casters generally keep to just one or two
elements, and there are generic bolt and ball spells which can be cast
using any element. I want most wizards IMC to also have just one or two
elements; yes, a cold wizard has a lot more trouble against trolls or
undead than a fire wizard, but a cold wizard doesn`t accidentally burn
down your village when he misses. My current draft 3e mechanic for this
is that a wizard`s initial element is determined by her bloodline
derivation, and each additional element desired costs a metamagic feat;
I vacillate between making magicians require a feat for even the first
element, treating them all as if they were of Vorynn`s derivation, or
making every elemental spell they cast a shadow evocation.

> Sonic is a nice enough set of rules for Erik`s power, but I`d prefer some
> kind of positive life-force energy which has the properties you describe.

Yes, I can see that. Ideally he`d like something which would not hurt
trees at all but do double damage to undead, like a sort of Circle of Doom
/ Healing Circle effect; this might be too powerful, but could be balanced
perhaps by making all Erik`s attack spells one level higher.

> The thing about sonic energy is that it can be combated by bards,
> silence, and the like, and unless we think that Erik`s power is
> wielded by song (not neccesarily a bad idea), its probabaly not sonic,

Yes, yes, you have something here. Silence should not stop you being
crushed by the earth -- in fact it can be part of being crushed by the
earth! What I really want is pure crushing damage or blunt trauma; I lean
towards saying his attack spells really do just throw rocks at people, or
else deal what the 3e Bigby`s Crushing Hand description calls "grapple
damage (normal, not subdual)."

> > Nesirie is most closely associated with grief, so it is appropriate
> > that her attack form should be that of a keening wail.
>
> I like this, but not as much as I like blasts of water. This does
> raise the question of how many kinds of attacks make sense. I`d think
> that every god would have its prefered spell descriptor (used for
> substitution when dealing with inappropriate desriptors), accepted
> descriptors (no need to substitue) and forbidden descriptors (should
> substitue).

This seems like a fine plan; it might even end up being less work than
rewriting all clerical spell lists to use a single element each. I still
sort of want to change everything to be Elemental Bolt / Element Ball /
Cone of Element / Wall of Element / etc. for the wizards to fit into, but
in the metamagic feat approach I outlined above, I might buy the idea of a
clerical list being more restrictive but as a balance providing two (or
even three in some cases) available attack forms.


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Sun, 30 Mar 2003, Mark VanderMeulen wrote:

> If you wanted to go with Impact as a type of damage (deals subdual
> damage), that might make sense for both Erik and Nesirie, given their
> respect for life. Water is also semi-associated with impact (I seem
> to remember a "Waterball" spell somewhere) but this is kind of weak.

No, I think it ought to be normal damage -- respect for life means you
don`t choose to cast such spells very often; but when you do, earth and
water mean you do it with the full force of an earthquake or tidal wave,
both of which are overwhelmingly destructive.

Now, as for Starfox`s objection that impact isn`t a standard elemental
attack type. There are some spells that inflict it, like the Bigby`s Hand
spell I mentioned, and of course many monsters have a "slam" attack.
Impact as an elemental damage type would act like a slam, except that it
would penetrate resistance to nonmagical weapons just as any other spell
would; and you could cast any of Endure / Resist / Protection From Element
with impact as the chosen type and obtain the normal effect against spells
doing that damage type (but likely not slam or blunt weapon attacks in
general, lest the defensive spells become too powerful). Certain monsters
should also be given resistance or immunity to it. Is that satisfactory?

> I find that a bit of a stretch, but I agree that both cold and acid are
> problematic for Nesirie. Neither seem to really fit her personality.

Yup. But see Kenneth`s "firehose" suggestion, as your "waterball" above.

> I might suggest some sort of emotional attack ("Melancholyball?") but
> that starts fiddling with the boundaries between invocation and
> enchantment. Probably best to leave that alone.

Yeah, that`s just going a bit too far out there.

> > Sera gets sonic because Mark suggested it. =)
> Ah, the power I wield!

Well, somebody has to. ;>

> I thought sound because it is the opposite of silence, which is
> related to stillness, which is the opposite of motion. It seemed the
> type of damage that was most directly movement-related.

Aha! That`s really quite good, and leads naturally to sonic for Brenna,
too, in a very pleasantly logical fashion. I like this reasoning.

> Actually, I`ve always liked the acid/water pairing better than the
> cold/water pairing, so my tendency would be to give acid to Masela.
> That would give cold to Azrai, which is not great given his
> association with snakes, but at least corresponds with darkness
> (night, caves, Shadow World) and is the force least associated with
> life-giving and useful properties (except maybe lightning, but that`s
> already assigned).

Hmm. OK, I could see this. Might work. Oh, as for lightning`s
life-giving properties: there are some scientists who think that life on
earth began when a bolt of lightning struck a pool of water containing the
right mix of sugars and proteins, and provided the activation energy for
the first self-replicating biochemical structure reaction to begin.
Certainly all nerve and muscle function is electrical in nature.

> We`re left with sonic for Brenna, and impact for Reynir.

Sonic for Brenna you made me like above. For Reynir, I come increasingly
to think that his attack spells should literally smack the targets with
rocks; perhaps they smash into the victim(s) and then continue on directly
into the ground, being absorbed by it without damage, to reflect that he
really is elemental earth. In Khinasi lands, sandstorms could also work.

> I suppose if you didn`t want to go with force for Vorynn it might make
> most sense to give him cold, since altitude is associated with cold,
> and Vorynn is associated with the moon, which hangs up there in the sky.

No, IMO Vorynn is definitely pure magical force, which is really a
different thing from physical impact. In White Wolf`s Mage system terms,
it`s dealing damage directly with Prime, not Matter or Forces (happily,
Cerilian wizards do not have to worry about Paradox). I could even go
with something like "holy" (positive plane) energy, doing double damage to
undead, especially if I also made Azrai`s elemental attacks use "unholy"
(negative plane) energy, doing no damage to (or even healing!) undead.
One possibly nice side effect of this last would be basically forcing any
wizard with an Azrai bloodline to become a necromancer, so as not to be
completely helpless when facing the undead.


Ryan Caveney

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