Make Scion a class [Archive]

geeman

03-22-2003, 10:16 AM

At 02:17 AM 3/22/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> > As far as I can tell there are three major ways of reflecting bloodline; as
> > an ability score, as a character class or in a manner unrelated to
> > traditional 3e mechanics (as the original 2e version was.)
>
>You left out doing it as a template.

I guess that`s true. Templates kind of tack onto the bloodline ability
score though, don`t they? I like ECL modifiers for a 2e to 3e update too,
and I`m trying to put together some numbers for how to do that in such a
system right now. What I`m coming up with is this:

1. Bloodline strength becomes the basis for a modifier (Bld) that the
bloodline as an ability score system uses. One uses whatever method one
wants to come up with a value 1-16 from bloodline strength and then
compares that result to the table below. ECL is on a table next to the
bloodline strength descriptions with the ECL value noted in tenths. I like
having a couple of additional strength score ratings in there, which are
noted as optional on the table:

Bloodline (Bld) Optional
Score Strength Modifier Strength ECL
1-2 Tainted +0 Touched 0.0
3-4 Tainted +1 Tainted 0.1
5-8 Minor +2 Minor 0.2
9-10 Minor +3 Minor 0.3
11-12 Major +4 Lesser 0.4
13-14 Major +5 Major 0.5
15-16 Great +6 Great 0.6
17-18 True +7 True 0.7

2. After bloodline strength is determined one rolls bloodline score (d6 per
point of the bloodline strength range of 1-16.) I`m writing this stuff up
for use with a system of bloodline points, so that appears on this table
along with the ECL modifier that gets added to the one from the previous
table to determine overall ECL. As I noted in a previous post I`m starting
to lean more and more towards a system of EL/ECL/CR that uses tenths, so
eventually I don`t think I`ll be rounding these ECL modifiers at all, but
in the meantime, I`m rounding them off rather than rounding them down as is
the norm for D&D.

Bloodline Bloodline Maximum
Score Points Abilities ECL
1-70 0 0 0.0
8-14 1 1 0.2
15-21 2 1 0.4
22-28 3 2 0.6
29-35 4 2 0.8
36-42 5 2 1.0
43-49 6 3 1.2
50-56 7 3 1.4
57-63 8 3 1.6
64-70 9 4 1.8
71-77 10 4 2.0
78-84 11 4 2.2
85-91 12 5 2.4
92-98 13 5 2.6
99-105 14 5 2.8

A scion with a bloodline strength of minor(6) and a bloodline strength
score of 20 would have a total ECL modifier of 0.2 + 0.6 = 0.8, rounded up
to +1. Another scion with a bloodline strength of great(15) and a
bloodline score of 58 would have a total ECL modifier of 0.6 + 1.6 or 2.2,
rounded down to +2.

Since I mentioned I`m writing this thing up in the Bloodline Point format
here`s another blood ability in that style. The bit in paranthesis after
the title of the blood ability is a "standard abbreviation" for that blood
ability so that it can be noted along with bloodline strength, score and
derivation more easily. A character might have a bloodline "An(11/36)
BHist(3/1)" where An represents the Anduiras bloodline, 11 a major
bloodline strength (on the table above), 36 the bloodline score and
BHist(3/1) the Blood History ability with 3 bloodline points spent on the
base power for that ability and 1 point spent on an enhancement.

Blood History (BHist) - Br, Ma, Vo
Your bloodline gives you a sort of living memory that allows you to
connect to the minds of your ancestors in order to draw upon their
knowledge and life experiences.
The memories you can access are up until the time of your birth and the
birth of your ancestors. That is, you have the memories of your parent
(the one with the appropriate bloodline and derivation) up until you were
born. A sibling born two years later would have two years more of memories.
Base Power: For every BP spent you may call upon your ancestors memories
once per day. Calling upon your ancestor`s memories can have any one of
the following effects.

You may make the equivalent of a Bardic Knowledge (PHB 29) check.
You may use your Bld as your key ability on any Bardic Knowledge or skill
check.
You make a check on any untrained skill despite not having ranks in it.
You get the equivalent of an aid bonus (+2) on any skill check.

Enhancements: By spending 1BP you may combine two of the above effects
in a single check. If you spend an additional BP you may combine three of
the above effects in a single check.
Example: A character who had spent 2 BP on Blood History could have put
1 point into the base power and 1 in the enhancement, allowing him to
combine two effects from the base power. He could then make a Bardic
Knowledge check using his Bld in place of intelligence or do so with a +2
aid bonus. He could make a check using an untrained skill in which he had
no ranks and either use his Bld as his key ability for that check or get a
+2 aid bonus.

Gary

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kgauck

03-22-2003, 10:56 PM

Personally, I don`t think using tenths complicates the math so much that I`d
prefer the innaccuracy of rounding over the simplicity of rounding.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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geeman

03-23-2003, 12:07 AM

At 10:53 AM 3/22/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>Personally, I don`t think using tenths complicates the math so much that
>I`d prefer the innaccuracy of rounding over the simplicity of rounding.

Yeah, me neither. When coming up with things like ECL modifiers and CR
awards, though, a little more accuracy is probably a good thing. It
actually seems to work pretty well in such cases. In certain other cases,
like determining EL, it`s not a problem to round the numbers. In fact,
it`s even sensible because one wants a little inaccuracy in such things.

I haven`t decided for sure yet which of those categories a "3.5" edition of
the rules falls under... but I`m leaning towards rounding up. ;)

I also would like a formula rather than a table to do things like CR
awards, or at least that the formula that is the basis of the table appear
somewhere on the page along with it. Tables are also, of course, a simpler
method for lots of folks, and the RPG community seems to be growing
increasingly math phobic--along with most of Western civilization, I
guess.... When there is a formula behind the math used to determine a
table having it appear somewhere in the text along with it would give those
who can remember the formula more easily than the entries in a table would
at least have that option. It would certainly save me some time in trying
to decipher the math behind those tables to put into a spreadsheet or
something.

Gary

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ecliptic

03-23-2003, 02:57 AM

Here you go, worked on it last night.

http://ecliptic.netfirms.com/Scion.rtf
right click and save

Somethings still not completely finished such as the Blood Abilities list, Bloodlines and descriptions, and the Bonus blood abilities for high Charisima.

Azrai

03-23-2003, 12:04 PM

The scion as a class will completely ruin the Birthright flair. Bloodlines are something that should be seperated from character classes. Further, a class is something that you can improve and what can be developed. As a result you have a sorcerer like class, thats bad for fighters.

Ariadne

03-23-2003, 02:33 PM

The scion CAN'T be a class. If you want to create 3rd Edition rules (like WotC) it makes absolutely no sense to create a CLASS for scions.

The scion MUST be a template (same as undead [like Lich or vampire], half-dragon, half-celestial or half-elemental). Otherwise you can't create any race with this adjustment. Monsters still might be blooded, but have only HD, no levels. Those are removed with the "create a scion race" tactic.

A SCION CAN'T BE A CLASS. This would violate BR flair...

Fizz

03-23-2003, 04:43 PM

I agree that a Scion class doesn't make sense. Characters advance in a class by choice. Blood abilities, indeed one's bloodline, don't improve through regular training, practice and experience that is associated with a class. Forcing a scion to advance either in his regular class or a scion class doesn't make sense.

-Fizz

irdeggman

03-23-2003, 06:53 PM

Ecliptic, I can't read the file. When I try to open it directly my anti virus program detects an executable file imbedded and shuts down. When I save as and open it the text runs together , no tab breaks, so that I can't make any sense out of the text.:)

Peter Lubke

03-24-2003, 12:38 AM

On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 03:43, Fizz wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472

Fizz wrote:
I agree that a Scion class doesn`t make sense.
Characters advance in a class by choice. Blood abilities, indeed one`s
bloodline, don`t improve through regular training, practice and
experience that is associated with a class. Forcing a scion to advance
either in his regular class or a scion class doesn`t make sense.

Fizz,
Your arguments are all based on false premise.

Just because someone has put forward a class where you don`t advance by
choice doesn`t make the idea bad -- just the example put forward. Yes,
you should advance by choice - you should choose to develop your blood
abilities from nothing to their full potential through training or
better yet experience. But that`s an issue you (and I) have with that
particular implementation of a Scion class.
Just because in 2e the blood abilities were fully there at full strength
does not mean that it need be so with a Scion class. Maybe the potential
is there. In fact it is an absurd position to take that they are fully
there, completely in control in a new-born child. Of course they have to
be learned.

I will agree that I haven`t seen a Scion class that lives up to being a
worthy alternative. But I also hold the position that, if done well, a
class is the best of all the alternatives so far.

A Scion class makes the most sense. But it is also the most difficult
conversion to make. All the blood abilities have to be graded in some
way as a start. It is also going to be a large change - quite different
from 2e Birthright. Having the blood abilities develop should have been
a huge beacon to the 3e converts out there -- after all character
development is one of the cornerstones of 3e. Full-blown but fixed
abilities is a 2e norm.

A Scion class would solve most of the ECL issues being bandied around
too. As a Scion advances in level, the number and quality of his/her
blood abilities would also likewise rise. Most (no make that ALL)
schemes I`ve seen so far do not allow for a starting blooded character
to be rated as a level one character, yet logically, they must pass
through this point at some stage -- and at that point they are valid
adventuring characters. It appears to me that the vocal part of this
group are only concerned about character levels between 10 and 20, and
care nothing for balance over the ranks 1 through 5.

As for `flavor` of BR, (not your argument I know), that`s complete
misdirection (i.e. bulls**t). A red herring thrown out by someone with
no real argument. BR has Wizards who are required to be blooded. BR has
magicians who are required to be human. Bloodlines are well-known,
characters with bloodlines are, while not common, not feared but rather
revered. A character that with a bloodline that had blood abilities
would in most places in Cerilia be highly regarded by the populace, even
where wizards are feared. To say that a class based on such a character
is not in the flavor of Birthright - is (let`s be honest) not only not
true, but the worst kind of hypocrisy, and total nonsense.

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oximoron

03-24-2003, 01:32 AM

I thought that the idea here was to convert Birthright into its 3E equivelent as third edition takes a completly diffrent approach to classes than 2E and I belive it should be handled with templates and should be based on bloodline strength rather than how high a stat is. Why should it be like that becouse the bloodline strengt is suppposed to indicate how poweful bloodline powers are.

It is also extremly rare to see a 1st level charecter with extremely high bloodline score and those charecters that do are most likely dead from the varius people that want to commit bloodtheft on the person if not that then he is overly protected from harm and lives in a sheltered enviroment

As a stat the bloodline should not be based on how high it is couse most DM´s make players really work for those bloodline points and giving diffrent ECL´s based on based on bloodline points would be like giving ECL based on magical items that players carry around.

The only problem I see for templates is the 1st level group and how an ECL affects them since ECL on a first level group would have more than 1 effective level I guess the DM´s in each campaign should deal with that as they see fit.

As a sidenote just to mark my opinion on Scion as a class, I am strongly opposed to the idea

Fizz

03-24-2003, 04:14 AM

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 03:43, Fizz wrote:

Maybe the potential is there. In fact it is an absurd position to take that they are fully
there, completely in control in a new-born child. Of course they have to be learned.

That's a perfectly legitimate point, and i do understand it. Learning how to control blood powers is a mechanic that i'd like to see implemented. A scion class would make that easy.

However, i'm not convinced blood abilities alone can make a workable class. Certainly not as a single class. That is, every scion would need be a multiclass scion/____, because blood abilities are limited by your bloodline score. Once you've reached your limit, that's it, (unless you increase your bloodline substantially). In effect, it would be a class that is limited in his advancement by his bloodline score. And even so, can advancing a level in a Scion class really provide sufficient benefits worthy of a regular core class? What happens when you advance? How would you distribute abilities?

I think it's too much work for too little payoff.

I realize balance is an important issue here. That's a cornerstone of 3E. One method is to provide blood abilities and apply an EL to the character. Another option, which i think works well, is to make blood abilities into feats.

Blood abilities as feats have worked well in the few playtests i've done. A character can only take one as a regular character feat (one provided at 1st or every level divisible by 3). That way, classes with bonus feats (ie fighters) don't have an edge over others. This provides the learning curve that you like, Peter, (i like the learning curve idea too) and it maintains balance because the character has to give up something (a regular feat) to gain the ability. Blood ability feats have prerequisites of blood scores and derivations, of course, plus others if they're particularly powerful.

I've found it works well in my campaign, anyways. So, that's my solution without using a class... :)

-Fizz

Peter Lubke

03-24-2003, 04:17 AM

On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 12:32, oximoron wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472

oximoron wrote:
I thought that the idea here was to convert Birthright into its 3E equivelent
as third edition takes a completly diffrent approach to classes than 2E and I
belive it should be handled with templates and should be based on bloodline
strength rather than how high a stat is. Why should it be like that becouse
the bloodline strengt is suppposed to indicate how poweful bloodline powers
are.

You say "completely different", but don`t seem to really mean it. It`s
just as valid to say that the potential for bloodline powers depends on
bloodline score or strength. Luke Skywalker wasn`t born a Jedi - just
born with the potential.

It is also extremly rare to see a 1st level charecter with extremely high
bloodline score and those charecters that do are most likely dead from the
varius people that want to commit bloodtheft on the person if not that then
he is overly protected from harm and lives in a sheltered enviroment

Oh, you think!?
Let`s just assume that at some stage Darien Avan decides to marry for
the purpose of producing an heir. Will he choose an unblooded wife? Of
course not, that would defeat the purpose. So, the child is likely to
have a decent bloodline - significantly higher than most regents in
Cerilia. Blood abilities? When do these bloodline powers manifest in the
child? When does the child have a bloodline that can be stolen? Will
Avan have the child well guarded and protected? Will Avan have the child
tutored? Would he raise the child to develop and use his bloodline
abilities ?

Now what`s correct for extremes is also just as correct for the other
end of the spectrum.

The issues that you raise are not constrained to the subject at hand.
(i) Bloodtheft restrictions are insufficient to explain the status quo.
Personally I,
(a) do not allow bloodlines to manifest in minors. A bloodlines
does not begin to show up in a character until they begin to reach
adulthood (humans ages 14-20).
(B) do not allow a character with a bloodline higher than the
victim to benefit from bloodtheft at all. Of course, this means that
characters with high bloodlines (e.g. the Gorgon) are perpetually on
guard against lesser scions. It also caps (limits) the usefulness of
this technique as a way of increasing bloodline.

As a stat the bloodline should not be based on how high it is couse most
DM´s make players really work for those bloodline points and giving
diffrent ECL´s based on based on bloodline points would be like giving
ECL based on magical items that players carry around.

Let`s make this clear -- very very clear --- bloodline powers are really
sexy, they have appeal. DMs like them, players like them -- and they
start with them. That means that they start with bloodlines as well. In
an adventure only game, there is little emphasis on gaining more
bloodline and little opportunity to do so. This is not wrong.

In a domain only game, bloodline powers are almost completely ignored.
There is a huge emphasis on gaining bloodline and in preventing its
loss. Bloodline is tied into regency and power of the domain and regent.
This is also not wrong.

If you play a hybrid game, you are in fact playing two games side by
side, neither excludes the other.

ECLs based on bloodline points or bloodline score would make no sense as
these do not by themselves give a character any advantage in a adventure
context. Bloodline powers however, do.

A well-designed Scion class avoids the question of ECL by grading the
bloodline powers into the class levels. (Takes the Effective out of ECL,
so there`s just a CL) A first level Scion would have bloodline powers
equivalent to the powers of a first level wizard (or whatever if the
classes were in fact balanced - a highly debatable point).

The question of ECLs for regents is a completely separate issue. The
resources of a domain are comparable to other property (e.g. magic
items), and thus should be treated consistently with that treatment.

The only problem I see for templates is the 1st level group and how an
ECL affects them since ECL on a first level group would have more than
1 effective level I guess the DM´s in each campaign should deal with
that as they see fit.

I`m sorry, but that`s a really poor answer. "I don`t know, but (not
caring that much about 1st level characters) leave it to a DM to
decide." "I`m only interested in part of the problem."

That would make it most unlikely that it would be handled similarly by
all DMs. Just a mess of house rules.

These cases aren`t unusual exceptions, they are part of a full case
study (or should be). Any system that fails to take into account the
full case is not addressing the problem to provide a solution.

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DanMcSorley

03-24-2003, 04:17 AM

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:
> A Scion class would solve most of the ECL issues being bandied around
> too. As a Scion advances in level, the number and quality of his/her
> blood abilities would also likewise rise. Most (no make that ALL)
> schemes I`ve seen so far do not allow for a starting blooded character
> to be rated as a level one character,

You haven`t read them all yet, then, because my very first suggestion, way
back, was to treat the scion template like powerful races get treated in
Savage Species. If scion is a +1 ECL class, it should have 1 racial level
which can be taken whenever the scion wants to get the full benefits of
being blooded.

For example:
A blooded character who hadn`t taken the level of scion would have a
bloodline, and be able to collect RP, but have no blood abilities. When
he picks up the level of scion, he can have blood abilities normally. You
ought to get a d6 hp and 2+int skill points (class skills: as
aristocrat?) for this racial level.

So a 1st level character might be a Fighter 1 (who would have a bloodline
but no blood abilities) or an unclassed scion, who would pick up a class
level at character level 2.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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Peter Lubke

03-24-2003, 04:17 AM

On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 13:48, daniel mcsorley wrote:

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:
> A Scion class would solve most of the ECL issues being bandied around
> too. As a Scion advances in level, the number and quality of his/her
> blood abilities would also likewise rise. Most (no make that ALL)
> schemes I`ve seen so far do not allow for a starting blooded character
> to be rated as a level one character,

You haven`t read them all yet, then, because my very first suggestion, way
back, was to treat the scion template like powerful races get treated in
Savage Species. If scion is a +1 ECL class, it should have 1 racial level
which can be taken whenever the scion wants to get the full benefits of
being blooded.

Well, now I have. Okay "most schemes...."

For example:
A blooded character who hadn`t taken the level of scion would have a
bloodline, and be able to collect RP, but have no blood abilities. When
he picks up the level of scion, he can have blood abilities normally. You
ought to get a d6 hp and 2+int skill points (class skills: as
aristocrat?) for this racial level.

So a 1st level character might be a Fighter 1 (who would have a bloodline
but no blood abilities) or an unclassed scion, who would pick up a class
level at character level 2.

Not bad.
The following is not meant as criticism, rather discussion (although
criticism need not be harsh - a criticism IS a discussion of sorts).
I find that such templates are effectively a 0-level racial class with a
modifier. With a skill system in place, it does balance characters as
they have to buy blood abilities (is that what you meant by "normally"?,
I`d still rate getting them all in one go to be unbalanced). The
subtleties of the class/template distinction are a valid design point
here. Mostly, I find templates to be an abused feature (but then so is
class creation - oh well).

Not bad at all. Better than as an attribute by far. Has the potential to
be the most backward compatible method. But, I rather liked the concept
of a Scion that went beyond what we`ve seen so far (in 2e) - a kind of
Jedi-Psionicist character.

--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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Birthright-L

03-24-2003, 10:36 AM

From: "oximoron" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>

> It is also extremly rare to see a 1st level charecter with extremely
> high bloodline score and those charecters that do are most likely
> dead from the varius people that want to commit bloodtheft on the
> person if not that then he is overly protected from harm and lives
> in a sheltered enviroment
>

Eh?

Excepting bloodtheft and investiture, scions are born. Most of them have
been 1st level. Maybe they have not developed all their bloodline abilities
by then, but the bloodline strength is definitely there.

I don`t see the occurrence of random bloodtheft as very common. It is power,
not bloodline, that people fight over.

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ConjurerDragon

03-24-2003, 03:55 PM

Peter Lubke wrote:

>On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 03:43, Fizz wrote:
>
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>Fizz wrote:
> I agree that a Scion class doesn`t make sense.
> Characters advance in a class by choice. Blood abilities, indeed one`s
> bloodline, don`t improve through regular training, practice and
> experience that is associated with a class. Forcing a scion to advance
> either in his regular class or a scion class doesn`t make sense.
>
>Fizz,
>Your arguments are all based on false premise.
>
>Just because someone has put forward a class where you don`t advance by
>choice doesn`t make the idea bad -- just the example put forward. Yes,
>you should advance by choice - you should choose to develop your blood
>abilities from nothing to their full potential through training or
>better yet experience. But that`s an issue you (and I) have with that
>particular implementation of a Scion class.
>Just because in 2e the blood abilities were fully there at full strength
>does not mean that it need be so with a Scion class. Maybe the potential
>is there. In fact it is an absurd position to take that they are fully
>there, completely in control in a new-born child. Of course they have to
>be learned.
>
That is not totally logical. You can´t use your class abilitys either
until you have reached the starting age of the PHB,
so why not simply say that bloodabilitys develop not before that age as
well?

That prevents childhood murder and breeding programs of evil characters
to commit bloodtheft - and it follows the description of the
bloodabilitys of Michael Roele in Iron Throne, where he did not develop
his bloodabilitys before he came to age.

>A Scion class would solve most of the ECL issues being bandied around
>too. As a Scion advances in level, the number and quality of his/her
>blood abilities would also likewise rise. Most (no make that ALL)
>schemes I`ve seen so far do not allow for a starting blooded character
>to be rated as a level one character, yet logically, they must pass
>through this point at some stage -- and at that point they are valid
>adventuring characters. It appears to me that the vocal part of this
>group are only concerned about character levels between 10 and 20, and
>care nothing for balance over the ranks 1 through 5.
>
Which are more likely to exist in Cerilia than characters of levels
above 10, you´re right.
bye
Michael Romes

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ConjurerDragon

03-24-2003, 03:55 PM

oximoron wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>
> oximoron wrote:
> I thought that the idea here was to convert Birthright into its 3E equivelent as third edition takes a completly diffrent approach to classes than 2E and I belive it should be handled with templates and should be based on bloodline strength rather than how high a stat is. Why should it be like that becouse the bloodline strengt is suppposed to indicate how poweful bloodline powers are.
>It is also extremly rare to see a 1st level charecter with extremely high bloodline score and those charecters that do are most likely dead from the varius people that want to commit bloodtheft on the person if not that then he is overly protected from harm and lives in a sheltered enviroment
>
Which could very fast happen, if e.g. Darian Avan or Aeric Boeruine
suddenly die at the hands of the Manslayer or through other means and a
son as a character of level 1 inherits the throne.
bye
Michael Romes

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Peter Lubke

03-24-2003, 09:04 PM

On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 02:34, Michael Romes wrote:

Peter Lubke wrote:

>On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 03:43, Fizz wrote:
>
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>Fizz wrote:
> I agree that a Scion class doesn`t make sense.
> Characters advance in a class by choice. Blood abilities, indeed one`s
> bloodline, don`t improve through regular training, practice and
> experience that is associated with a class. Forcing a scion to advance
> either in his regular class or a scion class doesn`t make sense.
>
>Fizz,
>Your arguments are all based on false premise.
>
>Just because someone has put forward a class where you don`t advance by
>choice doesn`t make the idea bad -- just the example put forward. Yes,
>you should advance by choice - you should choose to develop your blood
>abilities from nothing to their full potential through training or
>better yet experience. But that`s an issue you (and I) have with that
>particular implementation of a Scion class.
>Just because in 2e the blood abilities were fully there at full strength
>does not mean that it need be so with a Scion class. Maybe the potential
>is there. In fact it is an absurd position to take that they are fully
>there, completely in control in a new-born child. Of course they have to
>be learned.
>
That is not totally logical. You can´t use your class abilitys either
until you have reached the starting age of the PHB,
so why not simply say that bloodabilitys develop not before that age as
well?

I do. At least they start to develop then. But not a full-blown Great
ability. I should state that I rather like the idea of a template more
and more.

That prevents childhood murder and breeding programs of evil characters
to commit bloodtheft - and it follows the description of the
bloodabilitys of Michael Roele in Iron Throne, where he did not develop
his bloodabilitys before he came to age.

yes. Unless they are very patient - and long-lived. Still possible but
less likely. I do not allow a character with a higher bloodline score to
steal any bloodline from a lesser scion. That sort of limits the
bloodtheft opportunities in a self-regulating way.

>A Scion class would solve most of the ECL issues being bandied around
>too. As a Scion advances in level, the number and quality of his/her
>blood abilities would also likewise rise. Most (no make that ALL)
>schemes I`ve seen so far do not allow for a starting blooded character
>to be rated as a level one character, yet logically, they must pass
>through this point at some stage -- and at that point they are valid
>adventuring characters. It appears to me that the vocal part of this
>group are only concerned about character levels between 10 and 20, and
>care nothing for balance over the ranks 1 through 5.
>
Which are more likely to exist in Cerilia than characters of levels
above 10, you´re right.
bye
Michael Romes

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Peter Lubke

03-24-2003, 09:57 PM

On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 15:14, Fizz wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
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Fizz wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

On Mon, 2003-03-24 at 03:43, Fizz wrote:

Maybe the potential is there. In fact it is an absurd position to take
that they are fully there, completely in control in a new-born child. Of
course they have to be learned.

That`s a perfectly legitimate point, and i do understand it. Learning how
to control blood powers is a mechanic that i`d like to see implemented. A
scion class would make that easy.

However, i`m not convinced blood abilities alone can make a workable class.
Certainly not as a single class. That is, every scion would need be a
multiclass scion/____, because blood abilities are limited by your
bloodline score. Once you`ve reached your limit, that`s it, (unless you
increase your bloodline substantially).

If you limit a Scion class character by the 2e distribution of blood
abilities, then yes.
But, if a Scion classed character is limited by their level of Scion
instead - it`s a different ballgame.

In effect, it would be a class
that is limited in his advancement by his bloodline score.

Classes limited or constrained by other attributes are pretty standard -
usually minimum values of some ability e.g. magic-users needed an 12
intelligence to cast 6th level spells.

And even so, can advancing a level in a Scion class really provide sufficient
benefits worthy of a regular core class?

Compare a blood ability with a spell and you`ll see that blood abilities
usually are quite powerful. They are usable at will (without
memorization) or are turned on at all times. Sure, there`s not that many
of them compared to spells - who says that won`t change? Given that, the
combat abilities used to round out the class would be adjusted to make
it balance with a core class. So yes, at least until you get to extreme
levels - a 20th level Scion could have 5 great abilities for example.

What happens when you advance?

You gain the knowledge or use of extra or enhanced blood abilities. As
per other classes your combat experience and ability improves etc.

How would you distribute abilities?

By advancement in class. Advancement would be limited by bloodline
strength - with bloodline score having no input to the process
whatsoever. Bloodline score remains a domain mechanic, while strength
(taint, minor, major, great) determines the highest level of achievement
in the Scion class.

I think it`s too much work for too little payoff.

I did say I thought it would be a lot of work :-) but payoff is another
matter.

I realize balance is an important issue here. That`s a cornerstone of 3E.
One method is to provide blood abilities and apply an EL to the character.
Another option, which i think works well, is to make blood abilities into
feats.

Blood abilities as feats have worked well in the few playtests i`ve done.
A character can only take one as a regular character feat (one provided at
1st or every level divisible by 3). That way, classes with bonus feats
(ie fighters) don`t have an edge over others. This provides the learning
curve that you like, Peter, (i like the learning curve idea too) and it
maintains balance because the character has to give up something (a regular
feat) to gain the ability. Blood ability feats have prerequisites of blood
scores and derivations, of course, plus others if they`re particularly
powerful.

I`ve found it works well in my campaign, anyways. So, that`s my solution
without using a class... :)

You are right. I`m not saying that feats won`t work. I was just
defending that class will too. And provide other potential benefits. I
think almost anything is preferable to an extra ability/attribute score.

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Fizz

03-24-2003, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

Classes limited or constrained by other attributes are pretty standard -
usually minimum values of some ability e.g. magic-users needed an 12
intelligence to cast 6th level spells.

Well, in 3E, you'd need an Int 16 to cast 6th level spells. But, even if you don't have that, your abilities improve in other ways- more spells per day, more metamagic feats, etc, which don't depend on ability scores. Could there be a similar mechanic for the Scion? I don't see how since it's tied to bloodlines.

Unless you have a very very high bloodline score, you'll run out of blood `class' abilities in just a few levels. I don't think a single-class scion would ever be playable.

By advancement in class. Advancement would be limited by bloodline
strength - with bloodline score having no input to the process
whatsoever. Bloodline score remains a domain mechanic, while strength
(taint, minor, major, great) determines the highest level of achievement
in the Scion class.

Actually, what i was referring to were the basics of the class. Would it have a high BAB? Or low BAB? Skill points? Class skills? Hit die? Saves? Etc etc. Somewhere in the mix, i think one class would be giving up more than another in order to pursue his blood abilities.

And how do you balance the class with itself? For example, a character with a tainted bloodline might be capable of one measly power. He'd need to take a level of Scion to get it. But a character with a minor bloodline could have a more potent ability. He has to take a level of Scion too. Both have a level of Scion, but one is more potent than the other. And what of the rare Scion who is lucky to gain a single powerful blood ability? Would you make him take multiple levels of Scion to gain it?

Unless you completely want to rework how blood abilities are gained and developed, (every ability would need to have tainted, minor, major and great versions) i don't see how you could avoid some characters gaining more from a level of Scion than another.

You are right. I`m not saying that feats won`t work. I was just
defending that class will too. And provide other potential benefits. I
think almost anything is preferable to an extra ability/attribute score.

I understand your points. I agree it probably could be done as a class if you rework how bloodlines are gained. Not sure i'd want to do all that... :)

-Fizz

irdeggman

03-25-2003, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 02:34, Michael Romes wrote:

Peter Lubke wrote:

That is not totally logical. You can´t use your class abilitys either
until you have reached the starting age of the PHB,
so why not simply say that bloodabilitys develop not before that age as
well?

Pg 39 of the BRCS -playtest
"For most characters bloodline abilities generally first manifest at puberty and remain constant throughout their life.":)

Ariadne

03-25-2003, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

You say "completely different", but don`t seem to really mean it. It`s just as valid to say that the potential for bloodline powers depends on bloodline score or strength. Luke Skywalker wasn`t born a Jedi - just born with the potential
With the exeption that "Jedi" is something like a psion and that's a class. A psion is a potential as well as sorcerer, but a bloodline is indeed something completely different...

By the way (not your comment if I'm right): Every scion was 1st level at first, even every hero or anti-hero. The Gorgon wasn't born with 40 HD, he earned them (but he wouldn't be as powerful as he is today if he had "wasted" levels or feats as "scion"). Every character starts at 1st level, but this needn't to stay so...

ConjurerDragon

03-25-2003, 06:25 PM

Ariadne wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>Ariadne wrote:
>
Originally posted by Peter Lubke
>You say "completely different", but don`t seem to really mean it. It`s just as valid to say that the potential for bloodline powers depends on bloodline score or strength. Luke Skywalker wasn`t born a Jedi - just born with the potential
>With the exeption that "Jedi" is something like a psion and that`s a class. A psion is a potential as well as sorcerer, but a bloodline is indeed something completely different...
>By the way (not your comment if I`m right): Every scion was 1st level at first, even every hero or anti-hero. The Gorgon wasn`t born with 40 HD, he earned them (but he wouldn`t be as powerful as he is today if he had "wasted" levels or feats as "scion"). Every character starts at 1st level, but this needn`t to stay so...
>
I do not tend to either direction of having the mechanic as class or
not, but if it should be made a class, then
I see it more as a prestige class with the single requirement of having
a bloodline and in addition to the benefits of bloodabilitys dependant
on bloodline strenght you have all the stuff from the normal class.

Like e.g. the Alienist from Tome&Blood: He gains spells per day as if he
gained a level in the spellcasting class he had before becoming an
Alienist - so would the scion advance in his former class (and receiving
HD and abilitys according to that class) while adding a level of Scion.

To have a scion class completely on it´s own is not possible: If you
make it have D4 hitpoints it is a waste for fighters, if you have it
gain bloodabilitys - but not based on class levels but on bloodline
strength, but no spells it´s a waste for spellcasters.

And considering that most Birthright campaigns tend to have lower
character levels than Forgotten Realms and epic levels are most times
out of question most characters simply can´t afford to take one or more
levels of scion instead of taking levels in Fighter, Rogue, Sorceor or
whatever.

And having "scion class levels" in addition to the normal class levels
but by aquireing bloodline points instead of XP and indepandant of the
normal class advancements means nothing else than that the scion class
is no class in the 3E sense, but an add-on to the existing class of the
character.
bye
Michael Romes

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geeman

03-26-2003, 12:56 AM

At 06:50 PM 3/25/2003 +0100, Michael Romes wrote:

>And having "scion class levels" in addition to the normal class levels
>but by aquireing bloodline points instead of XP and indepandant of the
>normal class advancements means nothing else than that the scion class
>is no class in the 3E sense, but an add-on to the existing class of the
>character.

I think that`s a fair assessment, but it`s kind of the case for all
bloodline systems isn`t it? They are all essentially an add-on to the
existing class of the character. The question is, which is the best
option? There`s a large personal esthetic component involved in such
decision making, of course. My opinion is that the scion as a character
class is rather clunky. It`s a blunt tool for portraying a 3e version of
the 2e system. Bloodline as an ability score is just as clunky, but with
it`s rough edges set at different--but no less dramatic--angles. That
doesn`t mean, however, that they can`t work. I`ve tested both, and they
both work OK. My personal preferences is for class over ability score,
because the balancing factors and overall function of bloodline as a class
fits more closely into the system of EL, ECL and CR. Also, by making it a
class one can introduce new things like bloodline skills, some of which are
really cool. I`m still trying to figure out how to incorporate them into a
non-class system of bloodline.

Bloodline components being represented by templates strikes me as a concept
that has been supplanted by later D20 products. Savage Species has rules
and examples of several templates turned into "monster classes" which can
work pretty well on any template. It`s an excellent idea and system,
despite it needing a little tweaking here and there IMO (what else is
new?) It does, however, make the transition from template to character
class pretty easy. Templates are, in effect, the "last level" of a class,
so the argument that bloodlines should be reflected by templates in most
significant ways equates to the bloodline as character class.

No system can be all things to all people, of course. Though I disagree
with those posters who think that bloodline as an ability score or
character somehow dilutes the campaign setting . In the final analysis I
think a system that mimics the original as closely as possible, but takes
advantage of certain D20 products is the best option.

Gary

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Ariadne

03-26-2003, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by PeterLubke

I should state that I rather like the idea of a template more and more.
Clap, clap, clap...

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon

Like e.g. the Alienist from Tome&Blood: He gains spells per day as if he gained a level in the spellcasting class he had before becoming an Alienist - so would the scion advance in his former class (and receiving HD and abilitys according to that class) while adding a level of Scion.
Your idea is good, but making it a prestige class would mean he STILL looses some things (O.K. he don't advance in some). All spellcaster PrC's have similar descriptions to these:

A ... continues advancing in divine spellcasting ability. When a new ... level is gained, the character gains new ... spells per day as if she has also gained a level in the .... spellcasting class, she belonged to, before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit of the previous class (improved chance of turning undead, increased benefit from laying on hands, and so on). If the character had more than one ... spellcasting class, she must decide which class to assign each level of the ...

This means he advances in spellcasting ability but NOT in another (turning undead, new metamagic feats etc.). You actually gave a description about a TEMPLATE. You HAVE something (blood abilities or whatever), ADVANCES in it AND in your regulary class...

irdeggman

03-26-2003, 02:34 AM

Also the "rules" for prestige classes say that a character shouldn't be eligible until 4th or 5th character level which makes for another sticky wicket.:)

DanMcSorley

03-26-2003, 02:59 AM

>No system can be all things to all people, of course. Though I disagree
>with those posters who think that bloodline as an ability score or
>character somehow dilutes the campaign setting.

I don't know about 'diluting' the setting, but as it stands now, the implementation, with multipliers and such, stinks.

ConjurerDragon

03-26-2003, 07:04 AM

irdeggman wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> Also the "rules" for prestige classes say that a character shouldn`t be eligible until 4th or 5th character level which makes for another sticky wicket.:)
>
Character Level or character level + ECL for gaining the bloodline and
abilitys? Then a great line would qualify for that from the first level
on, or not?
bye
Michael Romes

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Peter Lubke

03-26-2003, 01:49 PM

try not to take it too seriously, (It`s just a game) (or a game within a
game) (or ..)

On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 21:33, irdeggman wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472

irdeggman wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Lubke

On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 02:34, Michael Romes wrote:

Peter Lubke wrote:

That is not totally logical. You can´t use your class abilitys either
until you have reached the starting age of the PHB,
so why not simply say that bloodabilitys develop not before that age as
well?

Pg 39 of the BRCS -playtest
"For most characters bloodline abilities generally first manifest at
puberty and remain constant throughout their life.":)

if maybe whatever, can I, who when where - I suppose yes no , wait okay
maybe. I feel that, being partly right, okay partly wrong, alright make
that mostly wrong ... stop picking on me .. all right yes, well, perhaps
we could have a rule, well not a rule per se, perhaps a guideline, no no
not a guideline nothing formal just an idea really perhaps it could be a
suggestion, with of course the full weight of law, but couched of course
not in absolute terms, no let`s make it ....

Let`s use "most" and "generally" a lot, and cover part of the case, but
... ummm help? ... we pretty sure we are on track but .... haven`t
perhaps thought it through ...... yeah, look maybe .....

For this quote you want recognition? C`mon, show me the money. I know
I`m being way harsh, but you did stick it out there.

Sure, I understand you had a lot to look at. And you at least
superficially looked at bloodlines. But please don`t raise issues like
you really looked at it - because it`s a very weak statement that you
made, as if you had no consensus or no discussion or both. There`s no
follow through, no consequences, nada. The decision to develop in camera
will haunt you at the very least, (if it doesn`t destroy your efforts
outright - which is my each-way bet).

But for more specific criticism:

"bloodline abilities" - you want to explain that? Does it mean you can`t
bloodtheft them before then? Does it mean that they don`t apply to
domain RP calculations before then? Does it mean that, their bloodline
powers suddenly (in the space of microseconds) spring full-blown into
effect?

See, in the net discussion we have some context that develops over time
- even if some of it gets lost. In a rulebook you don`t have such
luxury. Especially if you publish (even a draft) without supporting
argument, either in the form of notes or discussion. This leads to the
unenviable position of being in defense of the indefensible, you (the
team) have by your original position abdicated your right to participate
as a protagonist in any subsequent discussion. Personally, I feel for
you as a project manager, but understand and could have (did) predict
your situation. That`s not going to stop me chopping down weak defense
however.

BTW, the publishing of those guidelines was a good (if not great) idea.
(Was that you? - I forget, anyway) Of course, publishing them six months
ago would have been almost sheer genius (or good stock standard
information management as part of a standard project plan).

irdeggman

03-26-2003, 04:30 PM

You don't bloodtheft a blood ability. You bloodtheft a bloodline and perhaps the result will yield an ability gained. The mechanics are a little different, but I get your point.

Originally in the BRCS-playtest there were words about a sudden trauma could manifest a blood ability prior to puberty but was cut for length and simplicity. I think that bloodtheft would count as a trauma effect. Also bloodmarks were going to be listed as the single exception to a blood ability not being manifested until puberty, but was cut because it was thought it would have added too much confusion.:)

Shade

03-26-2003, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by geeman

My opinion is that the scion as a character
class is rather clunky. It`s a blunt tool for portraying a 3e version of
the 2e system. Bloodline as an ability score is just as clunky, but with
it`s rough edges set at different--but no less dramatic--angles.

In the final analysis I
think a system that mimics the original as closely as possible, but takes
advantage of certain D20 products is the best option.

Gary

I agree with both of these statements.

irdeggman, you mentioned that you wanted to see a working system in 3 weeks - what exactly do you need in the "system"? You mentioned that we don't need to bother with conversions of blood abilities.

irdeggman

03-26-2003, 08:54 PM

This was what I put out:

All right, it is time to move to the next step. We need a write up of the other versions proposed for determining blood ability score.

The proposals need to be complete in that they stand on their own and don’t have any missing gaps. Proposals that are prefaced by "I was thinking that something like this could work" or "how about this for an idea" are counterproductive at this point. The proposals need to be capable of being used in both a random generation method system and a non-random generated system, similar to a point-buy. If a proposed system can’t work in both systems then it won’t be considered. Why am I taking this stance? Because there has been a lot of people expressing their opinions that they want one or the other type of system and hence both must be supported in any "official" document. The proposed system should also include a means of gaining blood abilities. This must also be compatible with a random and a player’s choice system for the same reasons as above. Note that the system existing in the 2nd edition rule set is not compatible with a non-random generated system as written.

Timeline: 3 weeks from today. If you need (or want) to you can e-mail them to me (irdeggman@cox.net) and I will do a “quickie” edit and rough formatting – give me about a week or so, depending on how much work there is to do. I will arrange to get them downloadable, if necessary, so that people can review them. We will then look them over, discuss for around 2 weeks and then vote on which system to choose and proceed from there.

The reason I am pushing this is that if we don’t have any deadlines then nothing will get accomplished (thanks Travis). The list and net site have been hosting discussions on how to do things for around 2 years so far and I have spent the last year working real hard trying to get something out to discuss in the hopes of being able to produce an "official" product. Playtime is over folks it’s now time to put our noses to the grindstone and work towards getting that "official" product completed.

I added that a rewrite of the blood abilites shouldn't be done unless it is an essential part of the bloodline score write up. We can visit the specific blood abilities after we nail down how to quantify the bloodline score issue. I don't want to diffuse the first topic with one that doesn't need to be addressed quite yet.

Does this answer your question Shade? If not I'll anwser anything else I can if you ask me.([_]

irdeggman

03-26-2003, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon

irdeggman wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> Also the "rules" for prestige classes say that a character shouldn`t be eligible until 4th or 5th character level which makes for another sticky wicket.:)
>
Character Level or character level + ECL for gaining the bloodline and
abilitys? Then a great line would qualify for that from the first level
on, or not?
bye
Michael Romes

I thought the point of having a scion class (or prestige class) was to do away with the ECLs?

Peter Lubke

03-27-2003, 03:12 AM

On Thu, 2003-03-27 at 07:56, irdeggman wrote:
This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472

irdeggman wrote:

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon

I thought the point of having a scion class (or prestige class) was to do
away with the ECLs?

Not so for a template based approach however. And a full-blown Scion
class would be more work than a template, as well as being quite
difficult. So, alternatives may have to work with blood abilities too.

From a character adventuring game point of view, only the blood
abilities are important to determine balance/rating.

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ecliptic

04-03-2003, 05:52 AM

Sorry I haven't been around to reply and such. The war and all.

So what you people are saying by making the Scion a class BR would lose its flair? So to you being unbalanced and complicated is 'flair'?

Sorry to those who couldn't read the document.

Here it is in .doc

http://ecliptic.netfirms.com/Scion.doc
(right click save)
and the .rtf again

http://ecliptic.netfirms.com/Scion.rtf
(right click save)
and for those who can't see either, you get to see the crappy .txt file :)

http://ecliptic.netfirms.com/Scion.txt
(right click save)

ecliptic

04-13-2003, 02:44 PM

bump

Fizz

04-13-2003, 07:31 PM

Every time i try to view this link, or save the file directly to my machine and then open it, i get the following message:

"Directly downloading images is not permitted on the Netfirms FREE plan. If you are the owner of this site, either ensure that this image is embedded in a web page, or upgrade to one of the Netfirms premium plans. "

So, i can't comment until i can actually see the file. Until then, i remain very skeptical... :)

-Fizz

ecliptic

04-13-2003, 09:13 PM

I have no other webspace. So *shrug* if you can't figure out how to right click and save. Not my problem.

Doyle

04-13-2003, 09:50 PM

Sounds like you`re trying to download a protected page rather than a file.
Rather than rightclicking and selecting `save target as..`, follow the link
through one more step and then save it - failing that, or use a mirror.

BTW to download a `protected` image (I don`t know if it works for files),
bring the image up the screen, then use explorer to go to the `temporary
internet files` folder and copy it from there ;-)

HTH,

Doyle

-------Original Message-------

Date: Monday, 14 April 2003 05:46:11 AM

Fizz wrote:

Every time i try to view this link, or save the file directly to my machine
and then open it, i get the following message:

"Directly downloading images is not permitted on the Netfirms FREE plan. If
you are the owner of this site, either ensure that this image is embedded in
a web page, or upgrade to one of the Netfirms premium plans. "

So, i can`t comment until i can actually see the file. Until then, i remain
very skeptical... :)

-Fizz

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Fizz

04-13-2003, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by ecliptic
I have no other webspace. So *shrug* if you can't figure out how to right click and save. Not my problem.

Did you miss the part where i said i tried downloading it directly? I know about right-clicking and saving. The resultant saved file gave the same error as just clicking on the file.

Doyle, your suggestion helped me to figure out how to get the file. You're right i think, something between here and there didn't like me accessing a protected page. But i managed to find the file stored in the cache. Maybe the server didn't like my browser (Opera). Go fig. Anyways i've got it and am reviewing it now. Thanks for the suggestion!

-Fizz

ecliptic

04-13-2003, 10:26 PM

I'm in a grumpy mood. :P

Fizz

04-13-2003, 10:45 PM

OK, had a look at the Scion class. My thoughts...

Taken by itself as a stand-alone class, it's fine. But there are several issues which i don't think fit in to Birthright very well.

First, the class is created from a reworking of the blood abilities system. If that's what people want, fine, but we must recongnize that modification as a substantial leap from original BR. In this class, as a scion you gain new powers by level, but limited by your Bloodline score. For most characters, only a level or two of this class would be worthwhile.

The class is created from a very regal-noble-kingship perspective. But not all scions in Birthright are wealthy, noble, or great leaders. There are numerous scions who have great powers, but are terrible leaders. There are scions who are paupers. So, the leadership and noble abilities don't make sense. It's forcing the class into something that is inconsistent with many BR characters. When a character becomes a scion, he doesn't suddenly become wealthy, noble, or a great leader.

The class is guaranteed to penalize certain classes more than others, meaning some classes will make better scions. For example, the skill list is irrelevant to what wizards and thieves need. Why does developing your blood abilities make you a good administrator, or diplomacer, or strategist? Likewise, why does a fighter become a poorer fighter (dropping his high BAB) while a wizard becomes a better fighter (improving from his poor BAB)?

This is different than the same issues from regular multiclassing because a blooded character doesn't have any class abilities one way or the other. Blood abilities have always been independent from anything class-related. But now they're intertwined with the class. So some classes are going to be better candidates for multiclassing into a Scion than others.

Again- the class is too focused on the premise that scions are noble leaders. Most are not.

Scions, imo, are too varied to be forced into a single class. Take away the blood abilities, expand the skill list and you've got a noble class. A noble class works well in BR. But not all nobles are scions, just like not all scions are nobles.

IMC, i'm used feats to represent blood abilities. It seems to work well, allowing the character to advance his blood abilities without compromising his class. And since he expends feats to gain them, everyone stays fairly balanced.

-Fizz

ecliptic

04-14-2003, 06:12 PM

Feats are already a precious thing. Hell I have been thinking about upping the number of feats my player's characters get because of how limited they are. Not to mention a feat that grants blood abilities is over powered for what feats normally can add.

Another alternative I was thinking is do a feat/skill combination. Where the higher your skill the more access to blood abilities you get. A feat required to take the skill.

ryancaveney

04-14-2003, 06:33 PM

On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Fizz wrote:

> There are numerous scions who have great powers, but are terrible
> leaders. There are scions who are paupers. So, the leadership and
> noble abilities don`t make sense. It`s forcing the class into
> something that is inconsistent with many BR characters.
>
> When a character becomes a scion, he doesn`t suddenly become wealthy,
> noble, or a great leader. The class is too focused on the premise that
> scions are noble leaders. Most are not. Scions, imo, are too varied
> to be forced into a single class.

Very well put. I agree -- making bloodedness into a class requires that
far too many things be far too strictly defined; these aspects (BAB,
skills, etc.) are best left up to other parts of the overall character
design. Though some complain about it, this is in fact one of the
greatest strengths of the original system: that it is completely
independently tacked on, with no strong ties to any of the usual aspects
of character power and growth.

Having just one number which is assigned at birth and remains unchanged
except by bloodtheft, or events at the realm level is much simpler, and
thus avoids all the problems you discuss above.

The old system ain`t broke, so I continue to think we shouldn`t try to
"fix" it, lest in so doing we make things much worse.

Ryan Caveney

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irdeggman

04-14-2003, 07:22 PM

I agree with the comments on the proposed scion class. I don't see a reason for a full 20 level class that mostly duplicates a noble. It would force a player to give up on being a different class (e.g., fighter) in order to be a scion.

I came up with a 5 level one to allow an ECL'd scion to play in a first level campaign (ala Savage Species). The progression becomes optional, if a player wishes to gain the increase benefits of a higher bloodline (i.e., the ECL stuff) then he need to take a level of the scion class in lieu of his "normal" class. But by compressing the benefits into a 5 level maximum, which most players would only take up to 3 levels in anyway, it becomes highly manageable.

Ryan I have to disagree, the original system was broke and needed to be fixed. The blood ability progression tables were pretty much obviously placed in the wrong order with the 29-35 range having a 50% chance of not gaining a blood ability while the 11-19 range only had a 15% chance.

http://www.tuarhievel.org/Scion%20Class%20...r%20Posting.doc (http://www.tuarhievel.org/Scion%20Class%20For%20Posting.doc)
:)

ecliptic

04-14-2003, 10:59 PM

The old system did nothing but cause resentment among fellow players. It was stupidly flawed and unbalanced.

ryancaveney

04-14-2003, 10:59 PM

On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, irdeggman wrote:

> The blood ability progression tables were pretty much obviously placed
> in the wrong order with the 29-35 range having a 50% chance of not
> gaining a blood ability while the 11-19 range only had a 15% chance.

That table I agree needs to be fixed. What I consider not broken, and
superior to any replacement I have yet seen proposed, is this: the concept
of bloodline score as determined completely independently of the rest of
character generation, and blood abilities calculated based solely on that
bloodline score, which gives exactly the maximum number of RP that
individual could collect as a regent. That table is a buggy method of
implementing the idea -- not an argument against the idea itself.

Ryan Caveney

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Shade

04-14-2003, 11:14 PM

>The old system ain`t broke, so I continue to think we shouldn`t try to
>"fix" it, lest in so doing we make things much worse.
>
>
>Ryan Caveney

Agreed. The old system isn`t broken, and it works just fine (at least for
me).

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Peter Lubke

04-15-2003, 02:38 PM

On Tue, 2003-04-15 at 04:24, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
On Mon, 14 Apr 2003, Fizz wrote:

> There are numerous scions who have great powers, but are terrible
> leaders. There are scions who are paupers. So, the leadership and
> noble abilities don`t make sense. It`s forcing the class into
> something that is inconsistent with many BR characters.
>
> When a character becomes a scion, he doesn`t suddenly become wealthy,
> noble, or a great leader. The class is too focused on the premise that
> scions are noble leaders. Most are not. Scions, imo, are too varied
> to be forced into a single class.

Very well put. I agree -- making bloodedness into a class requires that
far too many things be far too strictly defined; these aspects (BAB,
skills, etc.) are best left up to other parts of the overall character
design. Though some complain about it, this is in fact one of the
greatest strengths of the original system: that it is completely
independently tacked on, with no strong ties to any of the usual aspects
of character power and growth.

The fault doe snot lie with the concept of Scion as a class, but with
the Scion class being implemented so. A better implementation would
avoid that.

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Mark_Aurel

04-15-2003, 03:59 PM

The fault doe snot lie with the concept of Scion as a class, but with
the Scion class being implemented so. A better implementation would
avoid that.

How would you implement it better?

ecliptic

04-15-2003, 06:21 PM

The class I made doesn't guarantee them to be a good leader. They can still have low Cha and they can still be a piss poor leader.

geeman

04-15-2003, 07:21 PM

ecliptic writes:

> The class I made doesn`t guarantee them to be a good leader.
> They can still have low Cha and they can still be a piss poor leader.

I think the point was that the scion as a character class--if one decides to
go that way--shouldn`t incorporate aspects of what would otherwise be
associated with a noble (or some other) PC class. Sure, a character might
still not be a good leader if he had poor ability scores or was RP`d that
way in the same way a fighter might be inept in combat or a wizard a lousy
spellcaster. It is the emphasis of the class design at issue. The scion as
a character class should deal primarily (only?) with reflecting the aspects
of bloodline into the character class system. Anything in the class that
doesn`t deal more or less directly with bloodline is extraneous or, worse,
crosses over into what should be another character class.

Gary

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irdeggman

04-15-2003, 09:00 PM

I’m pretty sure that I had previously stated why I felt that using Charisma as the basis for blood abilities is not a wise choice. For one it favors classes that use Charisma as a prime attribute, bard, paladin, sorcerer, and cleric. Bards and paladins make for weak regents, bards specifically are not supposed to be good regents at all, per the BRRB “Bards don’t typically become regents. While priests control temples and thieves run guilds, a bard has no holding or commodity to call his own. A bard gains no special rewards for controlling people or lands – it’s actually a violation of the oath of neutrality. If a character is destined to inherit a kingdom or rise to prominence some other way, the bardic colleges will not accept him. However, there is no reason a bard cannot be a scion; and from time to time, such characters are called upon to take up the mantle of leadership.” So using an attribute for blood abilities that would “favor” a class that shouldn’t normally become regents seems to fail the logic test.

The advancement in gaining blood abilities doesn’t follow any increase in ability score only class level. This also flies in the face of the basic premise that the amount of blood abilities is dependent on the bloodline score.

This class doesn’t present how a character acquires a minor, major or great bloodline and since it is now based on Charisma there is no way to calculate it.

The DCs for blood abilities is basically doubling the benefit of Charisma. First the initial DC is set by the level of the blood ability (minor, major, great) which is based on Charisma score and then the scion gets to add his Charisma modifier to the DC.

Blood abilities – am I reading this correctly in that the scion can use his blood abilities at will with no limit to the number of times per day?

Augmented aura – a plus to dice rolls and to armor class? Usually the morale bonus applies to all dice rolls, but not to armor class. It would be better to go with the standard convention.

The Heir ability description states that “Scions come from noble families.” This doesn’t seem to work well in cultures that don’t favor any sort of nobility – for example the Vos, Rjurik and dwarves. None are what I would call noble oriented. Elves could be extrapolated to having something akin to nobility, but I’ve always seen it more of the Land’s choice for regents and princes, etc. are more in title only. More along the lines of the first among equals. Half-elves and halflings don’t really seem to have a place were nobility could help them. There is only one halfling domain and nobility is a generational issue.

Class skills – why is perform a class skill? Knowledge skills wouldn’t work in Vosgaard. Likewise with administrate, the Vos (and Rjuirik for that mattter) are not particularly good bookkeepers. And Warcraft is not a very regionally favored skill in Brechtur, while administrate would be.

Please don't take these comments personally they are supposed to critical analysis of weakness in the proposed system and not attacks on its author.

Duane

DanMcSorley

04-15-2003, 10:15 PM

On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, irdeggman wrote:
> I`m pretty sure that I had previously stated why I felt that using
> Charisma as the basis for blood abilities is not a wise choice.

So it shouldn`t be discussed at all? Because yours is the final word,
after all. All your objections are stated, but blood abilities are powers
tied to the personal invoking ability of the creature. Dragons,
celestials, and many other creatures with supernatural powers have them
based on Charisma in just this way. Charisma represents force of
personality. Other than the absurd `bloodline ability score`, it`s the
best fit for powers of this type.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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Mark_Aurel

04-15-2003, 11:58 PM

So it shouldn`t be discussed at all? Because yours is the final word,
after all. All your objections are stated, but blood abilities are powers
tied to the personal invoking ability of the creature. Dragons,
celestials, and many other creatures with supernatural powers have them
based on Charisma in just this way. Charisma represents force of
personality. Other than the absurd `bloodline ability score`, it`s the
best fit for powers of this type.

Don't take it quite that way - I just think Duane stated his view on the subject, not the "final word" on it.

Ariadne

04-16-2003, 01:02 AM

Originally posted by DanMcSorley

Charisma represents force of personality. Other than the absurd `bloodline ability score`, it`s the best fit for powers of this type.
What do you want to give for high blooded scions then? Cha +20 like a demon or dragon? The gorgon with cha 45, then he should have become a sorcerer. Well, cha +whatever would be a nice idea, but trully unbalancing. The bloodline score modifier is an "ability" to define the power of your blood abilities without influencing any class relevant ability (turning undead, laying on hands or whatever). Nothing bad, I think...

ecliptic

04-16-2003, 03:24 AM

I think the point was that the scion as a character class--if one decides to
go that way--shouldn`t incorporate aspects of what would otherwise be
associated with a noble (or some other) PC class. Sure, a character might
still not be a good leader if he had poor ability scores or was RP`d that
way in the same way a fighter might be inept in combat or a wizard a lousy
spellcaster. It is the emphasis of the class design at issue.

Oh jee, roleplaying in a roleplaying game. What a concept.

The scion as
a character class should deal primarily (only?) with reflecting the aspects
of bloodline into the character class system. Anything in the class that
doesn`t deal more or less directly with bloodline is extraneous or, worse,
crosses over into what should be another character class.

Why? Are you telling me that Ranger shouldn't exist because it's spellcasting ability crosses over into the Druid character class?

I’m pretty sure that I had previously stated why I felt that using Charisma as the basis for blood abilities is not a wise choice. For one it favors classes that use Charisma as a prime attribute, bard, paladin, sorcerer, and cleric. Bards and paladins make for weak regents, bards specifically are not supposed to be good regents at all, per the BRRB “Bards don’t typically become regents. While priests control temples and thieves run guilds, a bard has no holding or commodity to call his own. A bard gains no special rewards for controlling people or lands – it’s actually a violation of the oath of neutrality. If a character is destined to inherit a kingdom or rise to prominence some other way, the bardic colleges will not accept him.

Just like Wisdom favors both the Cleric and the Druid so ofcourse, if a Cleric is going to multiclass it should be to a Druid.
Does this class say Regent? No it doesn't Just because one is born with noble blood does not mean he is inline to grab up his own kingdom. It does mean the ability to lead people is IN HIS BLOOD. He is a natural born leader.

However, there is no reason a bard cannot be a scion; and from time to time, such characters are called upon to take up the mantle of leadership.” So using an attribute for blood abilities that would “favor” a class that shouldn’t normally become regents seems to fail the logic test.

Do you know what a D&D bard is? He is mainly the leader of the adventuring group, he is the spokesman. They are meant to lead.

The advancement in gaining blood abilities doesn’t follow any increase in ability score only class level. This also flies in the face of the basic premise that the amount of blood abilities is dependent on the bloodline score.

Um excuse me? But the higher your Charisma the more Blood abilities you can use.

This class doesn’t present how a character acquires a minor, major or great bloodline and since it is now based on Charisma there is no way to calculate it.

Same way a Sorceror acquires his spell casting ability. If they take it at later levels, the power of the blood thats pumping through his veins is unleashed.

The DCs for blood abilities is basically doubling the benefit of Charisma. First the initial DC is set by the level of the blood ability (minor, major, great) which is based on Charisma score and then the scion gets to add his Charisma modifier to the DC.

Blood abilities DC is figured up the same way any other spellcaster's spells DC is figured up.

Blood abilities – am I reading this correctly in that the scion can use his blood abilities at will with no limit to the number of times per day?

You see that little thing on Table 1-1 that says Blood Ability Progression

Augmented aura – a plus to dice rolls and to armor class? Usually the morale bonus applies to all dice rolls, but not to armor class. It would be better to go with the standard convention.

Morale is a type of bonus same way an enhancement is a type of bonus fool.

The Heir ability description states that “Scions come from noble families.” This doesn’t seem to work well in cultures that don’t favor any sort of nobility – for example the Vos, Rjurik and dwarves. None are what I would call noble oriented. Elves could be extrapolated to having something akin to nobility, but I’ve always seen it more of the Land’s choice for regents and princes, etc. are more in title only. More along the lines of the first among equals. Half-elves and halflings don’t really seem to have a place were nobility could help them. There is only one halfling domain and nobility is a generational issue.

All cultures have a type of nobility. Wether it is a tribe leaders son being born and being granted his fathers prized weapon when he comes to age.

Class skills – why is perform a class skill?

Because one born of noble blood is taught many things. They are taught to be well rounded.

Knowledge skills wouldn’t work in Vosgaard.Likewise with administrate, the Vos (and Rjuirik for that mattter) are not particularly good bookkeepers. And Warcraft is not a very regionally favored skill in Brechtur, while administrate would be.

Thats like saying the because Half Orcs aren't on average good at anything other then fight they shouldn't have access to certain skills. You are trying to change the D&D rules. I recommend you quit doing it.

What do you want to give for high blooded scions then? Cha +20 like a demon or dragon? The gorgon with cha 45, then he should have become a sorcerer. Well, cha +whatever would be a nice idea, but trully unbalancing. The bloodline score modifier is an "ability" to define the power of your blood abilities without influencing any class relevant ability (turning undead, laying on hands or whatever). Nothing bad, I think...

Um dude, this discussion is about a class version of Scion,

Fizz

04-16-2003, 03:58 AM

Originally posted by ecliptic

Why? Are you telling me that Ranger shouldn't exist because it's spellcasting ability crosses over into the Druid character class?

That's not a fair comparison. Every class has a given `premise'. Rangers are wilderness warriors, while druids are the priests of Erik, the god of the woodlands. There is some natural overlap there.

Scions however, don't have a unifying premise. Are they uniformly sneaky? No. Are they uniformly good at combat? No. Are they uniformly good in the wild? No. Heck, not every blooded person has a blood ability.

What he is saying (and i am too) is that blood abilities should have NO impact or relationship with anything class-related. Once you make Scion a class, you have to deal with universal class issues, such as BAB, hit points, skill points, etc. And in so doing you will make some classes better at multiclassing to Scion than other classes. That's a complete break from the intent of the system.

Does this class say Regent? No it doesn't Just because one is born with noble blood does not mean he is inline to grab up his own kingdom. It does mean the ability to lead people is IN HIS BLOOD. He is a natural born leader.

No, scions are not necessarily born with noble blood. They are not necessarily natural born leaders.

Do you know what a D&D bard is? He is mainly the leader of the adventuring group, he is the spokesman. They are meant to lead.

Bards are good diplomats, but that doesn't mean they're meant to lead. Bards are wanderers, owing no allegiance to themselves and maybe their college. That doesn't sound like a leader to me.

Morale is a type of bonus same way an enhancement is a type of bonus fool.

I'd suggest you refrain from the ad hominems. He's providing constructive criticism.

All cultures have a type of nobility. Wether it is a tribe leaders son being born and being granted his fathers prized weapon when he comes to age.

True. But this assumes that everyone suddenly becomes `noble' upon realizing their blood abilities. That's simply untrue. You need to be a scion to rule, but being a scion is not the only prerequisite.

Because one born of noble blood is taught many things. They are taught to be well rounded.

Same problem- not all scions are born of noble blood. And even if they are scion who holds domains, it is very dependent on the culture and domain type. Why would a Vos barbarian scion leader have Perform, for example. A similar argument can be made to other class skills.

And this goes back to the initial premise- that scions should be completely independent from class considerations, for exactly this reason.

Consider a Vos barbarian scion. His ability to lead and rule lies entirely on his might. But this scion class results in a decreased fighting ability, fewer hit points, skills that are unrespected amongst his people, etc etc. To a Vos, all these are terrible qualities for a leader. He'd be killed off if he followed such a `weenie' path. So this class is completely unfair to a Vos character.

In addition, consider the overall results. The class doesn't favor Vos rulers. Vos scions would then be rare in the extreme. But this class would force them into it, to have any blood abilities at all. Meanwhile, the class might be respected in Anuire, even though it'll favor some classes over others. So guess where all the scions and blood abilities would soon be? In Anuire. That is clearly wrong.

Remember, blood abilities are meant to be independent of class and race. This class is anything but.

Thats like saying the because Half Orcs aren't on average good at anything other then fight they shouldn't have access to certain skills. You are trying to change the D&D rules. I recommend you quit doing it.

You're mixing a racial argument with a class argument. Class skills are just that- they are important to a CLASS. Scions, not having a unified premise, goal, background or motivation therefore should not be forced into a particular skill set.

Scions need to be completely class independent. You'll be screwing over somebody, somewhere, needlessly if you force the restrictions of a class on those who want to develop blood powers.

-Fizz

ConjurerDragon

04-16-2003, 05:22 AM

ecliptic wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>ecliptic wrote:
>
...

>
I`m pretty sure that I had previously stated why I felt that using Charisma as the basis for blood abilities is not a wise choice. For one it favors classes that use Charisma as a prime attribute, bard, paladin, sorcerer, and cleric. Bards and paladins make for weak regents, bards specifically are not supposed to be good regents at all, per the BRRB "Bards don`t typically become regents. While priests control temples and thieves run guilds, a bard has no holding or commodity to call his own. A bard gains no special rewards for controlling people or lands - it`s actually a violation of the oath of neutrality. If a character is destined to inherit a kingdom or rise to prominence some other way, the bardic colleges will not accept him.
>Just like Wisdom favors both the Cleric and the Druid so ofcourse, if a Cleric is going to multiclass it should be to a Druid.
>
From a game-mechanic view, certainly. A cleric of Haelyn would however
be hard pressed to multiclass to a class which is so closely tied to
Aeric and the Rjurik way of life, so it is not the automatic choice.

>Does this class say Regent? No it doesn`t Just because one is born with noble blood does not mean he is inline to grab up his own kingdom. It does mean the ability to lead people is IN HIS BLOOD. He is a natural born leader.
>
There are scions described in the books, who are no leaders at all. Take
for example the halfling "Shadows" who is a single bandit robbing and
killing people by singling them out and drawing them into the shadow
world for the kill. Or Ruovar the Red Bull, the former elf follower of
Rhuobhe - a BULL as natural born leader? There are many scions described
to which the natural born leader does not fit at all, so a scion class
should not make ALL scions better leaders.

>
However, there is no reason a bard cannot be a scion; and from time to time, such characters are called upon to take up the mantle of leadership." So using an attribute for blood abilities that would "favor" a class that shouldn`t normally become regents seems to fail the logic test.
>Do you know what a D&D bard is? He is mainly the leader of the adventuring group, he is the spokesman. They are meant to lead.
>
They are meant to sing. Who leads depends on the situation. In a dungeon
certainly the rogue leads to detect traps before you step on one. In the
wilderness I see more the ranger or druid leading the party and in
Vosgaard a barbarian or fighter with preferably high STR. In places
where social skills are needed, as e.g. in Anuire in the hall of the
lord of the land, a character who is based on CHA skills naturally takes
the lead. But there it could be also a Noble (PC).

>
The advancement in gaining blood abilities doesn`t follow any increase in ability score only class level. This also flies in the face of the basic premise that the amount of blood abilities is dependent on the bloodline score.
>
>
>Um excuse me? But the higher you Charisma the more Blood abilities you can use.
>
Which seems utterly wrong to me.
Bloodline is and should be the only determining factor of how much blood
abilitys you have.
A character with only a few bloodline points, equalling a 2E "tainted"
scion, e.g. with only up to 10 (2E) bloodline points had the chance of
having 1 bloodability.

If he raised his bloodline, he got better chances to gain more
bloodabilitys.

Raising his CHA score, in a 3E scion class, would allow him to use more
blood abilitys, even if his bloodline score stays the same? So a
sorceror with an already high CHA would have with the same bloodline
points a larger number of bloodabilitys than a fighter with a low CHA?

>
The Heir ability description states that "Scions come from noble families." This doesn`t seem to work well in cultures that don`t favor any sort of nobility - for example the Vos, Rjurik and dwarves. None are what I would call noble oriented. Elves could be extrapolated to having something akin to nobility, but I`ve always seen it more of the Land`s choice for regents and princes, etc. are more in title only. More along the lines of the first among equals. Half-elves and halflings don`t really seem to have a place were nobility could help them. There is only one halfling domain and nobility is a generational issue.
>
>
>All cultures have a type of nobility. Wether it is a tribe leaders son being born and being granted his fathers prized weapon when he comes to age.
>
The part of Birthright which is very different from other D&D settings
is the rule that "true magic" can be cast only by elves and blooded
scions and others can´t become Wizards/Sorcerors, only Magicians.

True wizards are however in Rjurik and Vosgaard quite the opposite of
leaders, they are shunned and feared, isolated and forced to live on
their own at times.

But despite this they are still scions - following the logic of that
class they should lead their people. ;-)

>
Class skills - why is perform a class skill?
>Because one born of noble blood is taught many things. They are taught to be well rounded.
>
Noble blood is not always noble blood. For a scion of a ruling family,
e.g. the Avans this would be certainly true. However therer are many
scions who are not regents, and live a life as adventurers, e.g. Shames
Lavalier the Ranger described in Ruins. His children, raised in a hut in
the deep forest, with only bears being their neighbours, THEY should
have perform as class skill, equally which class they chose?

>
Knowledge skills wouldn`t work in Vosgaard.Likewise with administrate, the Vos (and Rjuirik for that mattter) are not particularly good bookkeepers. And Warcraft is not a very regionally favored skill in Brechtur, while administrate would be.
>
>Thats like saying the because Half Orcs aren`t on average good at anything other then fight they shouldn`t have access to certain skills. You are trying to change the D&D rules. I recommend quitting.
>
I recommed listening. What he mentioned is quite right. A scion class
which gives access to a fixed set of skills as class skills, equally
where this scions lives, is a problem. That is because a leader in
Vosgaard in not the person with the best manners or diplomatic skills,
not even one good ad administration, but most times the most brutal,
cruel, axe-wielding, strong barbarian or fighter. So a scion class which
grants perform as a class skill (have I mentioned that bards are seen as
weaklings in Vosgaard but are not punished as long as they display no
magic?) would be rather unlikely to come to rule in Vosgaard.
bye
Michael Romes

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Birthright-L

04-16-2003, 09:05 AM

ecliptic: Several aspects of your previous post cross the line into trolls
and flames. Please be more careful regarding your tone and the language
you direct at other members of the BR community.

Gary
Birthright-l Moderator

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irdeggman

04-16-2003, 05:37 PM

Has anyone looked the the 5 level scion class I proposed (as an initial discussion only)? Comparisons might be healthy to the discussion instead of just criticism of ecliptic's work.

It was designed to cover the ECL issue (ala savage species), it was designed around the things that seemed to flow around bloodlines. The initial skills were mostly interaction (I do agree with ecliptic that scions are born to lead, whether or not they take up the mantle of leadership) but lets the player (with DM approval of course) choose some additional class skills to fit the culture that the character is within. The 5 level scion class has a specific purpose and was not designed to "replace" any other class but basically to allow an ECL'd character to play in a first level campaign.:)

DanMcSorley

04-16-2003, 05:54 PM

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> Which seems utterly wrong to me.
> Bloodline is and should be the only determining factor of how much blood
> abilitys you have.
> A character with only a few bloodline points, equalling a 2E "tainted"
> scion, e.g. with only up to 10 (2E) bloodline points had the chance of
> having 1 bloodability.
>
> If he raised his bloodline, he got better chances to gain more
> bloodabilitys.
>
> Raising his CHA score, in a 3E scion class, would allow him to use more
> blood abilitys, even if his bloodline score stays the same? So a
> sorceror with an already high CHA would have with the same bloodline
> points a larger number of bloodabilitys than a fighter with a low CHA?

No, you`re making bad assumptions. Charisma would be used to set save
DCs, like for most creatures with supernatural abilities. Bloodline would
determine the abilities used. In the same way a balor has more spell-like
abilities than a succubus, even though both use Charisma to set the DCs of
their powers and the succubus has much higher charisma.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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DanMcSorley

04-16-2003, 05:54 PM

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Ariadne wrote:
> What do you want to give for high blooded scions then? Cha +20 like a
> demon or dragon? The gorgon with cha 45, then he should have become a
> sorcerer.

Only if he were played by a munchkin powergamer, who seem to be
overrepresented in this discussion. But no, that`s not what I meant.

> Well, cha +whatever would be a nice idea, but trully unbalancing. The
> bloodline score modifier is an "ability" to define the power of your
> blood abilities without influencing any class relevant ability
> (turning undead, laying on hands or whatever).

Bloodline score should determine your number of ability scores, as in
second edition. 2nd edition used fixed save DCs for those powers. If we
want to make the DCs flexible, we should use the most normal way for doing
so, which is to say `these powers are used as by a sorceror of the
$appropriate level`.
--
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Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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DanMcSorley

04-16-2003, 05:54 PM

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Fizz wrote:
> No, scions are not necessarily born with noble blood. They are not
> necessarily natural born leaders.

They are. It`s the whole premise of the setting. The divine right of
kings is true- those descended from the gods are by definition noble and
leaders. They may not be kings at the moment, but they have the
potential, and the right to be.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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irdeggman

04-16-2003, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by DanMcSorley

Bloodline score should determine your number of ability scores, as in
second edition. 2nd edition used fixed save DCs for those powers. If we
want to make the DCs flexible, we should use the most normal way for doing
so, which is to say `these powers are used as by a sorceror of the
$appropriate level`.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

Actually per ecliptic's proposal, which is what started this discussion, there is no blood score. Charisma is used as a modifier to the number of blood abilities gained and character level itself is used to determine the base number and power (minor, major, great) of abilities gained. This is what caused the basis of my comments on using charisma (and level) as the basis for determining blood abilities.

Other things that are not clearly addressed via this proposal is how does a scion gain more power (i.e., blood abilities, RP collection) from being a good regent (i.e., conversion of RP) and bloodtheft. To use the premise that these actions increases his charisma seems sort of out of line with the general premise of advancement in regency.:)

irdeggman

04-16-2003, 06:41 PM

Ecliptic,
Where does it explain how to use Table 1-1? The table isn't even reference in the proposal. It would have been more obvious if the title was closer to the sorcerer's "spells per day" if that was the intent.

There seems to be confusion as to what noble born means. I believe what the majority in the discussion seem to be saying is that nobility is a social status and that having a bloodline makes a character born to lead. These are not the same thing and just because a character is born to lead (i.e., has a bloodline) doesn't mean that he will take up the mantle of leadership and become a regent nor does it mean that he was born with any special social status. He could be the illegitimate offspring of an established regent and might therefore be shunned or not acknowledged in the social hiearchy.

A bard would never be "allowed" to lead a group of Khinasi. "As worthless as the word of a bard." Their culture looks down on bards. I have played several bards throughout the years and have seldomly been in the role of "leader". Bards (3rd ed or any edition for that matter) are more involved in the role of interaction and information gathering/sharing. They tell stories and share rumors. Most adventuring party leaders are either the fighter (especially if he is knight-like) or the cleric. There are times when any character class could be called on to lead (situational) but these are generally the overall party leaders. Of course, if a paladin is present he jumps to the front of the list. :)

Fizz

04-16-2003, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by DanMcSorley

They are. It`s the whole premise of the setting. The divine right of
kings is true- those descended from the gods are by definition noble and
leaders. They may not be kings at the moment, but they have the
potential, and the right to be.

Hmmm... perhaps we have a different definition of `noble'. I see a noble as someone who is active and accepted as part of the ruling class. This would include both scions and unblooded characters. Shaemes Lavalier, i would not consider `noble', because he is not a part of the aristocracy.

You're right of course that every scion has the potential to rule, and has the divine right to do so. But there have been plenty of examples of poor leaders who run kingdoms. Of course, the definition of a `good' leader will vary between different cultures.

Before Deismaar, how would anyone have ruled? There were no scions, but there were nobles and leaders.

So i don't automatically equate `noble' with `scion'. Your milage may vary. :)

-Fizz

geeman

04-16-2003, 09:11 PM

At 01:24 PM 4/16/2003 -0400, Daniel McSorley wrote:

> > No, scions are not necessarily born with noble blood. They are not
> > necessarily natural born leaders.
>
>They are. It`s the whole premise of the setting. The divine right of
>kings is true- those descended from the gods are by definition noble and
>leaders. They may not be kings at the moment, but they have the
>potential, and the right to be.

This confuses leadership with regency which are different
concepts. Bloodline grants the ability to collect regency because that
power represents a character`s ability to control both political
(provinces) legal (law) economic (guild) religious (temple) or magical
natural resources (sources) but that differs from the kind of character
class features that represent leadership ability, and are generally
associated with charisma (though sometimes wisdom is used.) Regency need
not necessarily mean leadership at the character class level.

The association between regency and leadership is closer than regency and
many other class features, I grant you, but that doesn`t mean one should
mix the concepts. I would compare making leadership part of a character
class used to portray bloodline as similar to mixing the character class
features of clerics that reflect their religious role with regency since
one could easily associate that role with the divine power of regency. Or
even more pointedly the charismatic effects of sorcerers could be mixed
with the concept of regency since much of the colour text of that character
class description in 3e bears a resemblance to the concept of bloodline.

Gary

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DanMcSorley

04-16-2003, 09:11 PM

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003, Fizz wrote:
> Hmmm... perhaps we have a different definition of `noble`. I see a
> noble as someone who is active and accepted as part of the ruling
> class. This would include both scions and unblooded characters.
> Shaemes Lavalier, i would not consider `noble`, because he is not a
> part of the aristocracy.

The unblooded could be aristocrats, or wealthy, or have titles, and even
be kind and noble in the colloquial sense, but scions are automatically
noble- the have the blood of gods. Even if they`ve never set foot on an
estate, in a setting where the divine right of kings is true, you have it
if you have it, you know?

> You`re right of course that every scion has the potential to rule,
> and has the divine right to do so. But there have been plenty of
> examples of poor leaders who run kingdoms. Of course, the definition
> of a `good` leader will vary between different cultures.

You don`t have to be a `good leader`, or of good alignment, to be noble.
Nobility is measured by the strength of your bloodline- Raesene is pretty
much the most noble being on Aebrynnis, and he`s a brutal thug who rules
his kingdom by force of arms, as opposed to Gavin Tael and Darian Avan,
who are slightly less brutal thugs who rule their kingdoms by force of
arms. But they`re all noble, by definition.

> Before Deismaar, how would anyone have ruled? There were no scions,
> but there were nobles and leaders.

Not terribly rellevant. We`re all playing post-Deismaar, as far as I know
:). All scions are noble, even if they and others don`t realize or admit
it. It`s worth noting that the ruling class pre-deismaar was pretty much
the same as the post-deismaar ruling class, because all those rulers and
their warriors came to Deismaar. All of their descendants are noble.

I`m not in any way saying that all scions are titled aristocrats, but
simply that they`re all bluebloods, noble in the original sense, where
blood mattered more than anything else. Noble has taken on the meaning of
being a good, kind leader, because aristocrats have good PR machines, but
that`s not really the meaning in use in birthright.
--
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Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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kgauck

04-17-2003, 01:43 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 3:44 PM

> This confuses leadership with regency which are different concepts.

Actually, I think leadership need not be present in either case. Sure,
scions can all use regency. But neither all aristocrats (the social class)
nor all scions take an active role in guiding holdings of any kind. This is
especially true of younger sons and daughters. If eldest son runs the
family holdings, younger brother has gone into the sevice of the guild as a
mid-grade guilder, and younger sister helps older brother by acting as his
chancellor, there might yet be other siblings who do little more than dine
in style, socialize, and enjoy the wealth they were born into. Such
characters excercise neither leadership, nor regency. What they do posses
is the recognition that they are entitled to special treatment. The key
question, AFAIC, is do all scions merit special treatment despite a lack of
estates or money?

IMO, all nobles (blooded and not) recognize that the decendents of the heros
of Deismaar are worthy of special treatment. They are treated as peers in
terms of the customary rights granted to other nobles. Daniel McSorley
rightly points out that occasional foolish nobles might turn up their noses,
but by and large, if some hunter wanders off the ice and it becomes evident
that he is a scion, I would have the eorls, aaolfers, and druids (nobles
all) give the scion the courtesy of a noble in the Taelshore. Part of this
is the respect for the deeds of great ancestors, part of this is the respect
of the power of an angered scion who might cause problems if treated with
disrespect.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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ecliptic

04-17-2003, 01:49 AM

Crap well I had everything replied but the browser screwed up caused it all to be erased.

Anyway to try to sum it up..

Just because a skill is available doesn't mean they have to take. Same goes with any class. A person criticised the Scion class because it had skill a certain character wouldn't have. It's like criticising the Rogue class because it has the Open Lock skill and a player's Rogue grew up the forest and never seeing a lock.

To the person who said something about Vos not having Perform. So you are telling me that they could have no Perform? There are many Performs. If the barbarian tribe leader had epic perform skill and used to to recite something to get the blood boiling of his tribe right before a battle.

To the person who again was talking about how Vos rule on might. Vos rule on fear aswell as might. He makes all afraid to challenge him. Higher the charisma, the more fear he has. You talked about him being killed off for taking the 'weenie' path. What are they going to do? Ask how many hit points he has?

The more I think about it. The more I realize the class is by far the best way to go.

Added the Intimidate skill to the class.

geeman

04-17-2003, 02:22 AM

At 08:04 PM 4/16/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>Actually, I think leadership need not be present in either case. Sure,
>scions can all use regency. But neither all aristocrats (the social class)
>nor all scions take an active role in guiding holdings of any kind. This is
>especially true of younger sons and daughters. If eldest son runs the
>family holdings, younger brother has gone into the sevice of the guild as a
>mid-grade guilder, and younger sister helps older brother by acting as his
>chancellor, there might yet be other siblings who do little more than dine
>in style, socialize, and enjoy the wealth they were born into. Such
>characters excercise neither leadership, nor regency. What they do posses
>is the recognition that they are entitled to special treatment.

This is another mixing of bloodline with some ancillary issues that may or
may not be part of a character. In this case, I think what you`re talking
about is social status and upbringing rather than bloodline. Bloodline
really only (should) reflect the power of the character to run a domain and
to have a few powers gained by his connection to the gods. While such
characters might certainly have a sense of entitlement, that is again more
a product of nurture rather than nature. Take, for instance, a character
whose paternity is questionable, mommy having spent a few nights "out" as
it were. His bloodline and blood abilities don`t manifest until he reaches
some age of maturation (as most people assume given the power of blood
abilities and the way several of them would function) so he would have the
attitudes of a character of whatever social status he was brought up
under. If he was born into a family of meager social standing he could
develop some sense of entitlement when his bloodline manifests, but he
needn`t necessarily.

As for a scion`s recognition by others, however, I agree that it should be
a factor. I would suggest that a modifier to a system of reputation from
bloodline strength would work pretty well. One could use Table 1:
Bloodline Strength from my BP system (plug, plug) for something like that
pretty easily. That way a tainted bloodline would not in and of itself
merit more recognition than, say, a great hero of common heritage.

Gary

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Fizz

04-17-2003, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by ecliptic
Just because a skill is available doesn't mean they have to take. Same goes with any class. A person criticised the Scion class because it had skill a certain character wouldn't have. It's like criticising the Rogue class because it has the Open Lock skill and a player's Rogue grew up the forest and never seeing a lock.

Quite correct. But, all class skills are important aspects to the class. What binds all rogues together is their ability to get into places where they're not wanted. Some sneak over walls, other through the dark, and some get past locks. They're all good at getting into things they shouldn't. But scions don't have a common theme, motivator, or even a common background. So how can you give them a class list? They're too different to find any commonalities.

To the person who said something about Vos not having Perform. So you are telling me that they could have no Perform? There are many Performs. If the barbarian tribe leader had epic perform skill and used to to recite something to get the blood boiling of his tribe right before a battle.

He could have some ranks in Perform. Any class can. But the class forces the Vos scion away from the important factors that make him respected amongst the Vos. You say he could recite a poem to get his tribe's blood flowing- great! That's a good roleplaying idea. But the scion class means the Vos leader can't improve on any of the issues that he otherwise should be able to. A Vos leader should, if he chooses, be able to rule by sheer might. By he can't do that when he's forced to take levels of a scion class. The class actually limits the roleplaying options. That's because there are far too many concepts of leadership, nobility, etc that can fit into a single class. You're forcing all scions into a diplomatic administrative role, and that fits only a small number of scions.

Heck- consider even someone like Shaemes Lavalier. He's a scion. But he has never set foot in a `civilized' court, learning diplomacy and administration and etiquette. You really think he ought to be forced away from his ranger class to something so foreign, just so he can advance his blood abilities?

Or what a bandit king? What about a druidic ruler in Rjurik? What about a dwarf overthane? None of those fits the noble, aristocratic, diplomacer that you've created with this scion class.

To the person who again was talking about how Vos rule on might. Vos rule on fear aswell as might. He makes all afraid to challenge him. Higher the charisma, the more fear he has. You talked about him being killed off for taking the 'weenie' path. What are they going to do? Ask how many hit points he has?

`Weenie' referring to a class that does not emphasize strength and might, such as fighter or barbarian. Yes, Vos characters would notice that he's not holding his own in combat as much as he should (fewer hit points). Yes, they'd notice that their leader is not improving his combat abilities as he should (lesser BAB and no feats). Yes, they'd notice that he can't rage any more than he could before (can't advance in barbarian if you advance in Scion). Yes, they'd notice quickly that he's not the strongest, best fighter anymore.

And yes, the tribemen would notice their leader learning about Diplomacy, or Poetry, or Administration, or any other of the class skills that Vos consider irrelevant. They'd eat his heart after only one level!

The more I think about it. The more I realize the class is by far the best way to go.

And i'm even more convinced the other way. :) There's just too many roles that scions fill than can be covered by one class. No matter how you cut it, you'll be screwing over somebody, and that's not in the spirit of the setting.

-Fizz

Fizz

04-17-2003, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by DanMcSorley
The unblooded could be aristocrats, or wealthy, or have titles, and even
be kind and noble in the colloquial sense, but scions are automatically
noble- the have the blood of gods.

And that's fine as a definition of `noble'. It's just not the definition i use. You're equating scion and noble, whereas i draw a distinction between the too. A scion has the blood of the gods. A noble is a member of the ruling class. A -regent- is a noble scion, so to speak. :)

> Before Deismaar, how would anyone have ruled? There were no scions,
> but there were nobles and leaders.

Not terribly rellevant. We`re all playing post-Deismaar, as far as I know
:). All scions are noble, even if they and others don`t realize or admit

Oh i know, it just occured to me as a way to show why i consider the two terms separate. Pre-Deismaar leaders were considered nobles, but they weren't scions.

I`m not in any way saying that all scions are titled aristocrats, but
simply that they`re all bluebloods, noble in the original sense, where

OK, and i consider the term `noble' and `aristocrat' almost synonomous. So... at least we know what each other is talking about now. Except for terminology, i think we agree. :)

Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

Oooo... guess i shouldn't say `go wolverines', huh? :) Actually, i have a brother who did his doctorate at OSU.

-Fizz

Peter Lubke

04-17-2003, 11:53 AM

On Wed, 2003-04-16 at 01:59, Mark_Aurel wrote:
This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472

Mark_Aurel wrote:

The fault doe snot lie with the concept of Scion as a class, but with
the Scion class being implemented so. A better implementation would
avoid that.

How would you implement it better?

Well,
(a) from what I`ve seen and heard during the discussion - a template
would be better, but;
(B) follows ....

The Scion class would:
(i) not require any attribute score minimum or maximum
(ii) would require a character to be blooded
(iii) would have moderate combat ability, somewhere about the
capability of the old Rogue class, better than mage/wizard yet worse
than priest, i.e. the composite of HP, combat skill, armor and weapons
allowed would be only human-normal (non-classed) average at 0-level (if
such existed), with no special abilities beyond that of their blood
abilities (as defined hereafter)
(iv) would gain blood abilities based on level of the class as a
primary determinant, with only secondary modifications for bloodline
strength (and/or score). Call them bloodline powers to distinguish them.
(v) such bloodline powers are available ONLY to Scion class characters
(vi) such bloodline powers would be based on the blood derivation; c.f.
the particular priestly abilities are based on the particular faith they
have chosen.
(vii) personally, I`d restrict Scions to humans and those infected by
the blood of Azrai only -- but that`s what I do anyway regardless,
however under 3e such a restriction is not multi-race friendly
(although how a human player can play a minotaur with any possible
consistent response across the world is a role-playing dilemma - but
then 3e doesn`t really give a sh*t about role playing in any case)
(viii) such bloodline powers would where possible grow in strength with
the level of the Scion - abilities that are inconsistent with the level
of the Scion will only be granted at the appropriate Scion level. (e.g.
a Scion will NEVER have a great blood ability at the first level - but
they may have an ability that can become a great ability)
(ix) the bloodline abilities from the original rulebook would need to
be modified somewhat, graded, sorted by derivation, and a table of
powers (or potentials) created
(x) certainly there could be variation within the class of Scion, even
in the same derivation
(xi) the non-mnemonic and sometimes innate and/or ongoing effect of
some powers/abilities makes them more powerful than spells - thus a
Scion can expect fewer powers than a wizard or priest of the same level.

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ecliptic

04-17-2003, 05:57 PM

What binds all rogues together is their ability to get into places where they're not wanted.

A rogue can be as much a scout as another rogue can be as much a burglar.

Some sneak over walls, other through the dark, and some get past locks.

Some sneak through forests to see whats up ahead, some intimated people into getting what they want.

They're all good at getting into things they shouldn't.

No they aren't.

But scions don't have a common theme

Yes they do, they are all born to lead.

motivator, or even a common background.

No class has a common motivation or common background.

He could have some ranks in Perform. Any class can.

Yes, so whats the problem?

But the class forces the Vos scion away from the important factors that make him respected amongst the Vos.

What it does is make someone give up some of their strength to add strength. It makes them reduce their hit points and fighting ability to gain Blood Abilities such as Berserker's Blood and Regeneration.

You say he could recite a poem to get his tribe's blood flowing- great! That's a good roleplaying idea.

Perform epic is for reciting anything.

But the scion class means the Vos leader can't improve on any of the issues that he otherwise should be able to. A Vos leader should, if he chooses, be able to rule by sheer might. By he can't do that when he's forced to take levels of a scion class. The class actually limits the roleplaying options.

How do you figure? He loses some hit points to gain the ability to regenerate. It's all about what blood abilities he chooses.

That's because there are far too many concepts of leadership, nobility, etc that can fit into a single class. You're forcing all scions into a diplomatic administrative role, and that fits only a small number of scions.

You are looking at it narrowmindedly. A Vos leader would take Intimidate, Perform (epic), Intuit Direction, Lead (Cha), Warcraft (Int), and Handle Animal (Cha).
The class IS flexible.

Heck- consider even someone like Shaemes Lavalier. He's a scion. But he has never set foot in a `civilized' court, learning diplomacy and administration and etiquette. You really think he ought to be forced away from his ranger class to something so foreign, just so he can advance his blood abilities?

To give up power to gain something? YES. He was still born to lead and by not accepting the role he loses apart of himself.

Or what a bandit king? What about a druidic ruler in Rjurik? What about a dwarf overthane? None of those fits the noble, aristocratic, diplomacer that you've created with this scion class.

It isn't an aristocrat or diplomancer. It CAN be taking the right skills and feats.

A Fighter can sit on the thrown all day and never fight if he really wants to. Class may be built to fight all the time but that doesn't mean he has to fight all the time.

`Weenie' referring to a class that does not emphasize strength and might, such as fighter or barbarian. Yes, Vos characters would notice that he's not holding his own in combat as much as he should (fewer hit points). Yes, they'd notice that their leader is not improving his combat abilities as he should (lesser BAB and no feats). Yes, they'd notice that he can't rage any more than he could before (can't advance in barbarian if you advance in Scion). Yes, they'd notice quickly that he's not the strongest, best fighter anymore.

He makes up for what he loses by what he takes. Sure if he is taking Perform (dance), and Administrate as skills and Alter Appearance as one of his blood abilites. He would be what you described. If he takes the right skills such as Initimidate and the right blood abilities such as Greater Regeneration then he would rule through might.

And yes, the tribemen would notice their leader learning about Diplomacy, or Poetry, or Administration, or any other of the class skills that Vos consider irrelevant. They'd eat his heart after only one level!

There you go again assuming he would take Diplomacy or Poetry or Administration instead of Intimidate or Lead or Sense Motive.

No matter how you cut it, you'll be screwing over somebody, and that's not in the spirit of the setting.

You would rather have over powered characters or a complicated rule system or something that totally goes against d20. I perfer not to screw over the system in which this is being built for. If you want to play it, go play 2nd edition Birthright.

Added Bluff to skills.

ConjurerDragon

04-17-2003, 06:43 PM

Fizz wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>
> Fizz wrote:
>
Originally posted by DanMcSorley
>The unblooded could be aristocrats, or wealthy, or have titles, and even
>be kind and noble in the colloquial sense, but scions are automatically
>noble- the have the blood of gods.
>
>And that`s fine as a definition of `noble`. It`s just not the definition i use. You`re equating scion and noble, whereas i draw a distinction between the too. A scion has the blood of the gods. A noble is a member of the ruling class. A -regent- is a noble scion, so to speak. :)
>
Haven´t we got the minor nobles in Khinasi who got their minor title by
displaying only the capability of casting a few spells?
They need to be neither members of the ruling class before, nor be
blooded ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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ecliptic

04-17-2003, 07:06 PM

Did a bit of a rework on the class.

Got rid of Heir, added Bloodtrait. Moved around a few things.

http://ecliptic.netfirms.com/Scion.doc

http://ecliptic.netfirms.com/Scion.txt

http://ecliptic.netfirms.com/Scion.rtf

right click and save

If anyone has any better hosting place I could use, I would be grateful. :)

geeman

04-17-2003, 07:48 PM

At 07:57 PM 4/17/2003 +0200, ecliptic wrote:

>
No matter how you cut it, you`ll be screwing over somebody, and
>that`s not in the spirit of the setting.
>
>You would rather have over powered characters or a complicated rule system
>or something that totally goes against d20. I perfer not to screw over the
>system in which this is being built for. If you want to play it, go play
>2nd edition Birthright.

A fallacy of false choices is one in which none of the options presented
are accurate. Generally the option the presenter favors least is presented
in the most negative manner possible in order to "force" a decision for the
option he does favor. In this case, it isn`t "bloodline as a character
class" or "over powered characters or a complicated rule system that
totally goes against d20". I prefer a more d20 interpretation of BR, but
bloodline as a character class is not the only way to go, nor are either
the d20 rules or the campaign setting particularly better served by making
bloodline a character class. The range of outcomes is not nearly as clear
cut nor as limited as you make it out to be.

In my playtesting of bloodline as a character class the idea suffers from
about the same amount of problems that bloodline as an ability score
does. There are a few interesting things that bloodline as a character
class does better than bloodline as an ability score, one or two that it
does very badly, but by and large it`s not a substantially better system,
and neither are significantly better than just having bloodline as an
independent system. Certain things really cry out to be converted to
3e/d20 (blood abilities mostly) in an updated version of the system, but
bloodline strength and score don`t.

Making bloodline a character class may _seem_ like a more d20 way of
handling things, but d20 is actually meant to be much more versatile than
previous editions of D&D, so putting bloodline into a character class
format when one need not necessarily do so controverts that fundamental
premise (as does bloodline as an ability score.) Making character class
features having to do with leadership part of that class does not
necessarily equate to the original bloodline system either since that
system had no correlating aspects, and doing so controverts that
fundamental premise of the setting. The assumption that scions are "born
to lead" really is more of a personal interpretation rather than one that
necessarily follows from the BR materials, which really only indicate that
scions are "born with a connection to the divine" and that connection has
several aspects to it. Leadership is one aspect of that connection, but
access to true magic, blood abilities, a connection to the historical
background of the setting, etc. factor in as well. One could just as
easily assume all blooded characters should get metamagic feats from their
bloodline as give them leadership feats.

To address specific aspects of the scion character class you`ve suggested,
I think doing away with an independent bloodline score and using charisma
is a really bad idea. It ignores many aspects of the setting and creates a
whole set of problems with characters due to the way charisma influences so
many other aspects of character classes. A couple of folks have pointed
out issues with multi-classing, but to me the issue is that regardless of
multi-classing certain character classes will get a demonstrably more power
by virtue of a bloodline than would others. Worse, redefining the "bonus
spell" table the way you did doesn`t have much of a relationship to either
BR or d20 that I can see. Using the d20 spell slot/spells known mechanic
for blood abilities is similarly inelegant way of reflecting those
abilities. Aside from the way those tables are rewritten making them
different enough from d20 mechanics that there`s little point in keeping
the mechanic at all if it`s going to be changed so dramatically, the blood
abilities aren`t balanced against one another in a way that seems to have
any sense or relationship to those tables. At least, I didn`t recognize
any relationship.... Table 1-3 was particularly strange. What was the
"behind the curtain" thinking that went into the numbers on those tables?

Gary

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ryancaveney

04-17-2003, 07:59 PM

On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Gary wrote:

> In my playtesting of bloodline as a character class the idea suffers
> from about the same amount of problems that bloodline as an ability
> score does. There are a few interesting things that bloodline as a
> character class does better than bloodline as an ability score, one or
> two that it does very badly, but by and large it`s not a substantially
> better system, and neither are significantly better than just having
> bloodline as an independent system. Certain things really cry out to
> be converted to 3e/d20 (blood abilities mostly) in an updated version
> of the system, but bloodline strength and score don`t.

Very nicely put!

And I always knew you`d eventually realize you agreed with me. ;)

Ryan Caveney

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ecliptic

04-17-2003, 08:06 PM

In reality there is no hope to keep it like it was in the past. The old version was over powered and it caused too much conflict and resentment among the players.

I see class the best way to do it because it is by far the least headache enducing and it doesn't break the d20 system's back in the process. It keeps it relatively simple and balanced.

If it can't be simple, be balanced, and it can't be in the line of what d20 is, then just get rid of the whole bloodline.

irdeggman

04-17-2003, 08:50 PM

A separate score to reflect bloodline strength is very important to the Birthright setting. Whether this score is in the 3-18 starting range or the 1-100 is actually irelevent to the argument.

If Charisma (or any other normal ability) is used as the basis far too many things cause problems. For one - how is the regent's bloodline strength inceased by good rulership or from bloodtheft? These are very important concepts to the campaign. If the result is that his Charisma is simply increased this causes far too many questions and problems than any other option I've seen so far. Again because if he increases his charisma he then increases his ability to do things that are unrelated to being blooded (like turning undead or his ability to "lay on hands", or cast spells) far too many additional benefits for one action. For example a sorcerer-scion, his spell casting ability is based on Charisma so are his blood abilities. If he raises his charisma (default blood line strength) by being a good ruler he additionally increases his ability to cast spells. Why should this happen? I can't think of a good reason.

To advance in blood abilities (i.e., to gain more blood abilities and regency) without raising a character's bloodline score is also out of balance with the original setting. A character simply gaining levels is insufficient justification to raise the number of his blood abilities. Why should overcome obsstacles increase a characters ability to tap into the divine essense he contains? Think Highlander and many things seem to fall into place. Who hadn't thought of that movie/series when Birthright first came out?

Another question is using the scion class as presented how much regency does the character collect?

Again I think people are confusing nobility and the concept of being born to rule (could also incluse sources in this one). Part of ecplitics discussion of why perform was a class skill was that scions are exposed to more things. This applies to nobility (i.e., a social class structure) but not to having divine power in one's blood. Remember class skills are supposed to be those that the class favors and can increase more readily because of aptitude and training. Since most skills can be picked up as cross class skills, if perform is removed from the class skill list it does not eliminate the scion from taking ranks in it if desired. This works very well in addressing cultures in which perform is not really a "favored" skill.

PHB rogue (pg 46) "In general, rogues are skilled at getting what others don't want them to get; entrance into a locked treasure vault safe passage past a deadly trap, secret battle plans, a guard's trust, or some random person's pocket money.":)

geeman

04-17-2003, 09:22 PM

At 03:40 PM 4/17/2003 -0400, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>And I always knew you`d eventually realize you agreed with me. ;)

Well, then I take it all back.... Nah, eventually we`ll all come around to
you`re thinking in all things, Ryan. Excepting, of course, regarding the
value and accuracy of IQ scores.

In the case of bloodline as an ability score there are a few things I
really liked about the experiments I did with it. Mostly "blooded skills"
that just seem to make a lot of sense and added a lot of flavor to what is
a largely ignored aspect of BR in any conversion, or even things that
probably should have been addressed in the original materials. Can scions
sense each other`s presence? Include a "Bloodline Sense" skill and they
can. Bloodtheft is one of the things that`s always struck me as being
difficult to portray in D&D. It is possible to influence that sort of
thing with skills, however, in a way that is very interesting.

When one makes bloodline a character class giving scions access to those
skills fits right into place. When making bloodline something else,
however, one has to do a kind of fandango with the game mechanics in order
to make it work. I`ve been fiddling with the idea but I`m still not happy
with just "gifting" scions with skill points which is what one has to do to
avoid penalizing them. We`ll see.

Gary

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ecliptic

04-17-2003, 09:25 PM

*shrug* I give up argueing, I could argue the points all day.

To go anyother way is to prevent new people from starting Birthright. I have played in 20 different groups at hobby shops who played Birthright. Every single one of them refused to let anyone have Bloodline and they basically said it doesn't exist in the system. The few people in this forum cover a very small minority. Why include something few people used and alot saw as unbalancing and a trouble maker to begin with?

The setting is about the stories and its background. It's not about the extra powers one gains from having something extra.

Best solution is reduce it to a few balanced feats. Get rid of any major and great bloodlines, keep minor ones.

Feats

Bloodline
The character was born with the blood of the gods.
Benefit: This player can choose a blood ability and use it once a day.
Special: This must be taken at first level. This feat may be taken more then once.

ryancaveney

04-17-2003, 10:36 PM

On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Gary wrote:

> Well, then I take it all back.... Nah, eventually we`ll all come
> around to you`re thinking in all things, Ryan. Excepting, of course,
> regarding the value and accuracy of IQ scores.

Just as long as we`re all on the same page regarding "affect" and
"effect", I`ll be happy. ;)

> In the case of bloodline as an ability score there are a few things I
> really liked about the experiments I did with it. Mostly "blooded
> skills" that just seem to make a lot of sense and added a lot of
> flavor to what is a largely ignored aspect of BR in any conversion,

I have no problem with letting bloodline have an effect on skills -- but
isn`t that really just a blood ability which is modeled as a skill bonus?

> or even things that probably should have been addressed in the
> original materials. Can scions sense each other`s presence? Include
> a "Bloodline Sense" skill and they can.

The original materials do provide spells for that; making it a skill would
have to be handled carefully lest it get out of hand. I don`t think
blooded people should be allowed to close their eyes and say, "Aha!
There is a scion of Vorynn with a great bloodline 500 yards to the
northwest!" Seeing someone in person should give you a chance (Int or Wis
check?) to figure them out, as modified by various blood abilities. If
you do want a tracker as good as my example, then make that a new blood
ability (very nasty in awnsheghlien...).

> Bloodtheft is one of the things that`s always struck me as being
> difficult to portray in D&D. It is possible to influence that sort of
> thing with skills, however, in a way that is very interesting.

How do you see "bloodtheft as a skill" as distinct from being good enough
with your weapon to pierce your opponent through the heart? Buffy the
Vampire Slayer would be really good at bloodtheft, but that`s because she
almost never stabs anyone *except* in the heart.

> When making bloodline something else, however, one has to do a kind of
> fandango with the game mechanics in order to make it work.

Yup. Be careful lest you trip over your own feet and go sprawling.

> I`ve been fiddling with the idea but I`m still not happy with just
> "gifting" scions with skill points which is what one has to do to
> avoid penalizing them. We`ll see.

Given the high granularity of your system, don`t gift anything -- make
them spend BP! In the standard minor/major/great paradigm, create a blood
ability which is manifested as some number of points to distribute among
blood skills, perhaps 5/10/20.

Ryan Caveney

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ecliptic

04-17-2003, 10:52 PM

I am going to have to say, no Scion class, no ECL, no template. But instead Feat/Skill system. See my new thread. :)

Lord Rahvin

04-17-2003, 10:55 PM

To be honest, I really don`t understand the debate here. Near as I can
tell, it`s that some people don`t like having their character concepts
organized into a particular set of game mechanics grouped by archetype,
rather than actual individual circumstances and concepts. I don`t
particularly understand this view. I mean, putting any conversations about
2e and 3e and such aside, for the most part we`re used to a class-based
system. Why should archetyping characters of a similiar concept and
category into a standard advancement table really cause a stir?

Personally, for my campaigns, I don`t like the idea of people just suddenly
having special powers, that may or may not have anything to do with their
concepts or game-mechanical character advancement. You want a Fighter who
has powers, but you think having to take levels in Scion is punishment? I`d
prefer to think of bloodlines as something more than just "someone who
happens to be able to rule a realm if he wants and has cool powers". A
character class centralizes the bloodline into a particular archetype, which
I like. That being said, I`d prefer if the class was versatile. Someone
brought up a comparison with the rogue earlier, and I think that this is a
very good comparison. In the same way you`d want to limit certain roguish
traits to the rogue class, I think you`d want to limit certain scionish
traits to the scion class. I can`t understand someone who happily accepts
all rogues being able to sneak attack and such, but balks at the idea that
scions would have diplomacy as a class skill. And just as you`d want a
rogue class to accomodate a wide variety of character concepts, you`d want
that for the scion class.

As much as versatility within the class is important, so too is the concept
of multiclassing. I know this is going to come off as a moot point, and
even I kind of groan as I write that previous sentence, but I think that
thinking about any character as a Scion(6) is just stupid. Of course, I
think the same of anyone who would just be a Fighter(6). Maybe this is more
of a problem with the individual class writeups, but I strongly favor
multiclassing in my campaigns and I think that any valid character concept
worth a damn is going to be multiclassed at least a little. Dwarven
overthanes are likely to be Fighter/Scions, while Vos battle leaders might
be Barbarian/Scions and Brecht guildmasters might be Noble/Scions or
Rogue/Scions, etc.

For my campaigns, a typical dwarven overthane might be a Tough
Hero(3)/Scion-Vorynn(2)/Soldier(1). His starting feats might be Renown and
Archaic Weapons. He`d have the Civic occupation, giving him Diplomacy as a
permanent class skill and the Light Armor Proficiency feat. For his levels
of Scion, he might select the following Talents: Conceal Motive (+2 to
oppose Sense Motive) and Unlimited Access(+2 to get to restricted areas and
information). [This is in addition to 2 BP of blood abilities.] His levels
of Tough Hero would grant him Damage Reduction 1 [which stacks with his
natural Damage Reduction] and Remain Conscious (can possess limited function
up to negative-10hp).

All that being said, however, there`s no reason to have a simple Scion class
as the way to go. If you want to do a straight conversion with D&D, then I
think the Scion might be the way to do it. For myself, however,
accomodating the flavor of Cerelia means completely rewriting the character
generation rules. Basically, in this system, blooded characters are kind of
the norm, and commoners are simply more heavily restricted; PCs should
generally be blooded.

In my opinion, the first thing you should do is generate your base bloodline
score. This determines your capacity for blood abilities -- you are not
born with these powers. Generally speaking, a high bloodline score does not
automatically make your character better, but it does open up more options
for you to advance. If your initial bloodline is too weak to get the
options you`d like, for example if you want powerful blood abilities or you
want to wield awsome magicks or you want to marry the princess, then you can
adventure for Regency points which can later to spent (at an expensive
price) to raise your bloodline score. Also, you can commit bloodtheft and
such. Because the bloodline score is only a measure of character potential,
there aren`t so many balance issues involved in bloodtheft and awarding
Regency points.

Once you have your bloodline score, you can purchase some bloodmarks.
Generally, a bloodmark provides both an advantage and a disadvantage to your
character and also uniquely marks him as a scion. Characters with the Sense
Scion skill (which only Scions can take), for example, would be able to
detect which bloodmarks you have, and from that, may be able to measure your
strength and derivation. (Derivation determines which bloodmarks you may
possess and strength determines how many you can take.) You do not have to
take bloodmarks at character generation, you can do so anytime your
character levels up, but you can never possess more than a maximum amount of
bloodmarks based on your bloodline strength.

Taking levels in Scion Classes (there`s at least one for every derivation)
grants you blood points to buy blood abilities, similiar to Gary`s system.
These are more of the "supernatural effects" that Scions can sometimes
weild. Some of the more typical/explainable effects that grant save
bonuses, resistances, skill bonuses, etc. will be handled through feats and
talents that only characters of certain derivations or bloodstrengths can
take.

Maximum class level restrictions will be enforced based on bloodline
strength. This applies mostly for the Scion classes and magic-using
classes, but it`s going to be handled through a [Blooded] descriptor for
classes. For example, only characters of Tainted bloodline strength will be
allowed to advance past 3rd level in any class that has the [Blooded]
descriptor. I`m also thinking of applying a blanket restriction saying that
only Blooded characters can advance past 10th level in any class.

The ability to advance in magic-using classes and the spell-types available
within those classes will be based on bloodline. Arcane and divine and
natural magic descriptors need only really apply to the "Lesser Magics".
All of the "Greater Magics" need a bloodline and are restricted to
particular derivations. Scions of Reynir will have an easier time casting
Cure and Growth spells than Scions of Azrai or Anduiras.

Certain feats can only be taken by Scions of certain derivations.

Regency points (based on the Action Points of D20Modern) will be granted to
Scions each time they level and up and for adventure rewards relating to
bloodline, such as, for example bloodtheft. Regency can be used to provide
+1d6 to any d20 roll. (At the domain level, Regents can use their Regency
to provide +1 bonuses to domain actions, too, but generally the domain has
its own Regency pool.) Regency represents two things: the blessings of a
Scion due from his blood abilities, and his destiny to do great things to
shape the world. Some blood abilities and special Talents require spending
Regency points to use, instead of using some kind of "per day" mechanic.
Regency points never come back, but are given out during character
advancement or as an alternative/addition to experience points for
adventuring scions. I`m also thinking of applying an optional rule saying
that Scions can spend a lot of Regency points all at once to manifest a
bloodpower or spell-like effect that they don`t normally have access to.
Regency can be saved up to raise your bloodline score, and the primary
result of bloodtheft is to gain Regency (which can be used to improve
bloodline score, invoke divine fortune, use some of the more impressive
special talents, or manifest bloodpowers in an emergency). [There are
restrictions on how much Regency can be used in an encounter and how
effective Regency can be used based on level, so awarding someone gobs of
Regency points doesn`t imbalance things too much, but still gives a
significant edge to the character.]

The classes themselves aren`t given fixed abilities, so much as they are
given a series of optional abilities called Talents, which work similiarly
to the high-level rogue`s "special abilities" in D&D, where you can just
kind of pick and choose your abilties off a list. This allows for a wide
variety of archetypes, class interactions, and character concepts. I plan
to do this for all classes, not just the scion classes. I`ve already posted
the Scion of Vorynn to show what I intend the final result to look like.

-Lord Rahvin
LordRahvin@softhome.net

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geeman

04-17-2003, 11:41 PM

At 06:18 PM 4/17/2003 -0400, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

> > In the case of bloodline as an ability score there are a few things I
> > really liked about the experiments I did with it. Mostly "blooded
> > skills" that just seem to make a lot of sense and added a lot of
> > flavor to what is a largely ignored aspect of BR in any conversion,
>
>I have no problem with letting bloodline have an effect on skills -- but
>isn`t that really just a blood ability which is modeled as a skill bonus?

The difference is that I want unblooded characters to be able to take it
too by spending a feat to get access. It`s more of a set of "metamagic
skills" if you will. A magician might then be a "scholar" of bloodline
affects but not have to have a bloodline himself, or a fighter type could
be an awnsheghlien (or ersheghlien) hunter without a bloodline.

>How do you see "bloodtheft as a skill" as distinct from being good enough
>with your weapon to pierce your opponent through the heart? Buffy the
>Vampire Slayer would be really good at bloodtheft, but that`s because she
>almost never stabs anyone *except* in the heart.

One of the things I`ve never liked about how bloodtheft works is that
there`s no real game mechanical way of handling it. I haven`t really
thought this one out completely, but here`s the direction this could
go. What I`ve been thinking about doing is having a DC check for when a
scion falls in combat. A bloodtheft skill would give bonuses to that
check. So let`s say, for instance, bloodtheft is possible when performing
a coup de grace, when a scion is reduced to fewer than 0 hp with a critical
hit, or when a killing blow (-10 hp) is delivered. The chance for the
killer to successfully perform an act of bloodtheft might be:

Act DC
Coup de grace 5
Critical hit 15
Killing blow 20

A scion with skill in "bloodthievery" would get his ranks to that check.

The idea needs a bit more fleshing out, but that`s the basic premise.

Gary

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geeman

04-17-2003, 11:56 PM

At 04:33 PM 4/17/2003 -0600, Lord Rahvin wrote:

>Why should archetyping characters of a similiar concept and category into
>a standard advancement table really cause a stir?

I don`t think that was what the debate was about. The debate is more about
A) whether or not bloodline as a character class is the best option and B)
what the specific features of such a character class should be. In this
particular case the objection that most people seemed to have to the
specific features of the character class was that they combined bloodline
with what would appear to be a sort of prestige class version of a noble PC
class.

Gary

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Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel

04-18-2003, 03:09 AM

The problem I see with this concept is that people are thinking about the setting in a traditional D&D sense. Game balance was based on each character's abilities in comparison with other characters of supposedly equal strength.

However, the typical Birthright game has a combination of rulership and adventure. A typical ruler would not normally be 1st level, ECL 1. A character would typically have been trained and have a bit of experience upon receiving the mantle of leadership. If you use the character's that pre-exist in the game, it would be difficult to find low-level regents, even newly ascended ones, and even harder to find low-level regents near each other.

Now, the way Birthright was originally designed, the greater your bloodline, the more powerful you were. This did not hinder your advancement, but there are better rules for that in place now. If an ECL changing template system is in place, then that can most fully be considered a conversion of the system.

Anyways, let us compare the Class vs. Template vs. Feat/Skill Methods

Class
Pro - Allows campaigns to begin at ECL 1
Pro - Limits Higher Blood Power levels to higher game-play levels
Con - Doesn't accurately account for inborn abilities
Con - Doesn't necessarily have an intuitive system for blood-theft

Template
Pro - Can be introduced to standard D&D characters
Pro - Can semi-accurately recreate the 2E system balanced for 3E
Con - Doesn't allow for highly blooded, low ECL characters

Feat/Skill (from other thread)
Pro - Doesn't affect ECL
Con - Limited Portrayal of blood abilites
Con - Wastes skill points
Con - Can possibly be unbalancing

This is what I could think of off the top of my head, what did I miss?

ecliptic

04-18-2003, 03:21 AM

Template
Con - It's complicated
Con - It can be unbalanced very easily
Con- How the hell you going to do bloodtheft? Steal some blood and poof go up 2 more levels?

Skill/Feat
Pro - It's simple.

Pro - Can be introduced to standard D&D characters

It means you can't have a low level blooded character is what it means.

Pro - Can semi-accurately recreate the 2E system balanced for 3E

The more you try to make the thing accurately recreate the 2E system the more un-balanced it gets.

Con - Wastes skill points

How is getting more powers wasting skill points?

Con - Can possibly be unbalancing

Anything can be unbalancing

Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel

04-18-2003, 04:09 AM

The problem with a skill system is that, while it is simple, it suffers from strong flaws. A system should not use skills to represent natural ability. Natural ability should enhance skills where applicable, however.

I would like an explanation as to how the template system is unbalanced. True, it would require a little bit of work to properly scale, but that is where you balance the system.

Con- How the hell you going to do bloodtheft? Steal some blood and poof go up 2 more levels?

That's not much of a stretch from saying you became more skilled because you commited some sort of divine ritual (bloodtheft). In fact, I am writing a system where the ECL will be altered by different bloodline scores.

Another problem with the skill system is that it offers powers based on a skill level. Normally, a skill is used for checks to determine if a certain action can be achieved. Just having a 5 ranks in spellcraft doesn't all of the sudden allow you to cast a cantrip. In fact, skills generally allow you to attempt any ability that would require that skill, though the chance of success may be effectively 0%.

So here is a new list:

Class
Pro - Allows campaigns to begin at ECL 1
Pro - Limits Higher Blood Power levels to higher game-play levels
Con - Doesn't accurately account for inborn abilities
Con - Doesn't necessarily have an intuitive system for blood-theft

Template
Pro - Can be introduced to standard D&D characters
Pro - Can semi-accurately recreate the 2E system balanced for 3E
Con - Doesn't allow for highly blooded, low ECL characters
Con - It will be somewhat complicated to design the system

Feat/Skill (from other thread)
Pro - Doesn't affect ECL
Pro - Its simple
Con - Limited Portrayal of blood abilites and bloodlines
Con - Wastes skill points (getting 'powers' because you studied harder?)
Con - Unbalanced with other skills

kgauck

04-18-2003, 07:03 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "ecliptic" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:21 PM

> Template
> Con - It`s complicated
> Con - It can be unbalanced very easily
> Con- How the hell you going to do bloodtheft? Steal some blood
> and poof go up 2 more levels?

Point two easily dismissed by just reading further down in your post.

> Anything can be unbalancing

Templates are the simplist of the alternatives presented. Its works nicely
with races, undead, and other monsters. It can totally emulate a level
providing hit points, skill bonuses, save bonuses, and blood powers to make
the ECL penalty. Anyone who has found non-human races easy to build in 3e
has found that templates can be simple.

You don`t gain levels because you aquire someone else`s bloodline. Going up
or down levels would be a class based system. Since there are no levels of
bloodedness with templates, there are no levels to gain or lose. What you
might gain or lose are ECL penalties, which really only effect how you score
challenges in assigning experience. It only makes sense that more powerful
characters learn less from encounters in which they can fall back on powers
that make the encounter substantially easier. This is just an example of
the proximal zone of learning.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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ConjurerDragon

04-18-2003, 01:00 PM

Gary wrote:

> At 06:18 PM 4/17/2003 -0400, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
> The difference is that I want unblooded characters to be able to take it
> too by spending a feat to get access. It`s more of a set of "metamagic
> skills" if you will. A magician might then be a "scholar" of bloodline
> affects but not have to have a bloodline himself, or a fighter type could
> be an awnsheghlien (or ersheghlien) hunter without a bloodline.

In the Book of Magecraft such kind of character is already described,
the "Bloodline hound", a specialized Magician.

>> How do you see "bloodtheft as a skill" as distinct from being good
>> enough
>> with your weapon to pierce your opponent through the heart? Buffy the
>> Vampire Slayer would be really good at bloodtheft, but that`s because
>> she
>> almost never stabs anyone *except* in the heart.
>
> One of the things I`ve never liked about how bloodtheft works is that
> there`s no real game mechanical way of handling it. I haven`t really
> thought this one out completely, but here`s the direction this could
> go. What I`ve been thinking about doing is having a DC check for when a
> scion falls in combat. A bloodtheft skill would give bonuses to that
> check. So let`s say, for instance, bloodtheft is possible when
> performing
> a coup de grace, when a scion is reduced to fewer than 0 hp with a
> critical
> hit, or when a killing blow (-10 hp) is delivered. The chance for the
> killer to successfully perform an act of bloodtheft might be:
> Act DC
> Coup de grace 5
> Critical hit 15
> Killing blow 20
> A scion with skill in "bloodthievery" would get his ranks to that check.
> The idea needs a bit more fleshing out, but that`s the basic premise.

IF you invent such a skill check to see if a killer succeeds, then you
need also to take bloodsilver weapons into account.

However if two scions fight each other, and one is rendered helpless,
how could the other fail to pierce his heart with a coup de grace and
commint bloodtheft?
bye
Michael Romes

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ConjurerDragon

04-18-2003, 01:00 PM

Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel wrote:
>...
>Anyways, let us compare the Class vs. Template vs. Feat/Skill Methods
>
> Class
>Pro - Allows campaigns to begin at ECL 1
>Pro - Limits Higher Blood Power levels to higher game-play levels
>Con - Doesn`t accurately account for inborn abilities
>Con - Doesn`t necessarily have an intuitive system for blood-theft
>
How is in a class-based system the bloodline and powers transfered by
non-violent means?
e.g. if a regent designates his son as the heir of his bloodline, would
the son gain for example 3 levels of scion when the father dies and
suddenly become a Aristocrat 1/Scion 3?

>Feat/Skill (from other thread)
>Pro - Doesn`t affect ECL
>Con - Limited Portrayal of blood abilites
>Con - Wastes skill points
>Con - Can possibly be unbalancing
>This is what I could think of off the top of my head, what did I miss?
>
If bloodline becomes an exclusive skill, then
bloodline=skillpoints=regency collected, not to be influenced by
spending skill points but only by spending regency/bloodtheft?
bye
Michael Romes

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ecliptic

04-18-2003, 02:44 PM

The problem with a skill system is that, while it is simple, it suffers from strong flaws. A system should not use skills to represent natural ability. Natural ability should enhance skills where applicable, however.

You are looking at it wrong. You use feats to gain your natural bloodline, you use skill points to hone your abilities.

I would like an explanation as to how the template system is unbalanced. True, it would require a little bit of work to properly scale, but that is where you balance the system.

A bit of work? There are severe reasons why templates and ECL races aren't allowed in peoples games. Because hardly any of them are balanced to begin with.

That's not much of a stretch from saying you became more skilled because you commited some sort of divine ritual (bloodtheft). In fact, I am writing a system where the ECL will be altered by different bloodline scores.

Whats the point? Why not make it a class then? It's the same thing but much easier to deal with.

Another problem with the skill system is that it offers powers based on a skill level.

News flash buddy, but all the systems powers are based on level. Your template has an ECL +3, it means its considered a level 3. You need to be level 4 to even take the template.

Normally, a skill is used for checks to determine if a certain action can be achieved.

Thats the keyword, normally.

Templates are the simplist of the alternatives presented.

No it isn't, it is by far the most complicated one brought up.

Its works nicely
with races, undead, and other monsters.

So do the other 2.

It can totally emulate a level
providing hit points, skill bonuses, save bonuses, and blood powers to make
the ECL penalty.

Might aswell make it a class.

Anyone who has found non-human races easy to build in 3e
has found that templates can be simple.

Templates are simple IF they are non changing. They will be a pain in the ass to use.

You don`t gain levels because you aquire someone else`s bloodline. Going up
or down levels would be a class based system.

Then just use a class to begin with.

Since there are no levels of
bloodedness with templates, there are no levels to gain or lose. What you
might gain or lose are ECL penalties, which really only effect how you score
challenges in assigning experience.

A DMs job is already a pain in the ass, do you need to tack on just that more crap?

It only makes sense that more powerful
characters learn less from encounters in which they can fall back on powers
that make the encounter substantially easier.

Yes and that is covered in all 3 systems.

IF you invent such a skill check to see if a killer succeeds, then you
need also to take bloodsilver weapons into account.

Yup. Bloodsilver like regular silver is considered a +1 weapon. It naturally grants a +1. If it is magical you add it's additional modifier to your role.

However if two scions fight each other, and one is rendered helpless,
how could the other fail to pierce his heart with a coup de grace and
commint bloodtheft?

Um the object is to limit how much blood power they get from the blood theft. If his blood power is more powerful then his opponents, he should be able to try and hold onto it. For if he is ressurected or brought back to life, he still holds his power (even though it may be less then before). It shows how much power he is able to rip away from the person.
Hence the skill role.

If bloodline becomes an exclusive skill, then
bloodline=skillpoints=regency collected, not to be influenced by
spending skill points but only by spending regency/bloodtheft?

Like I said before. The bloodline skill reperesents your ability to hone your bloodline.

irdeggman

04-18-2003, 03:59 PM

Several points to make:

For using templates - True you can't start at 1st level with an ECL'd template. That was why I posted the 5 level scion class to emulate the way that Savage Species handled this situation. By combining the template and 5-level scion class (which doesn't give additional abilities by level, that is a function of the blood score) the Con that the template doesn't allow for highly blooded low level scions goes away. A scionwho has inherited his bloodline starts with an appropriate template. Using the 5-level scion class, the character decides whether or not he wishes to gain benefits from a higher template (minor template has no ECL so a character is entitled to minor blood abiities but no bonus hit points).

Ecliptic - have you read the d20 BRCS playtest document? In the proposal it talks about bloodsilver as transferring all the blood strength release (RP). With few exceptions, even those who don't like it or parts of it agree that it is d20 compatable. Now it does need to be worked on, it was never intended to be the end all be all and final "official" document sanctioned by the netforce - but it is a heck of a lot better than "let's use this skill or let's use this class" without a specific reference as to what should be changed (and why) the proposals come across as "these are my house rules" you all should use them and if you don't you are all fools.

Silver is not considered the same a +1 weapon. In fact the DR rules in 3.5 are specifically going to address this issue. Material does not equate to magical enhancement.

Other thread - true blood abilities are magical, but they are divine not arcane. They did come from the blood of the fallen gods. There is not a publication out there that has the prime attribute for divine spells being anything other than Wisdom. There are variations in the prime attribute for arcane magics (either Charisma or Intelligence), but every divine casting class uses Wisdom as the basis for divine spells.

Ecliptic - please try to address people respectfully. I can handle being personaly attacked, but I get upset when I see someone mistreating other people who have done nothing but express their opinions and have usually given reasons why they have said opinions. If you keep treating people this way then they will summarily disgard what good things you have to suggest. I know Gary has already made a similar (but shorter) comment on this issue.

End of venting.

kgauck

04-18-2003, 04:19 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "ecliptic" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:44 AM

>
I would like an explanation as to how the template system
> is unbalanced. True, it would require a little bit of work to properly
> scale, but that is where you balance the system.
>
> A bit of work? There are severe reasons why templates and ECL
> races aren`t allowed in peoples games. Because hardly any of them
> are balanced to begin with.

This certainly seems to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater then.
Since campaigns differ, porting in someone elses game materials always
requires that inspection to make sure the ported element is both fitting and
balanced. Most of the stuff I see in print (Dragon, internet, supliments) I
recognize as being designed for someone elses game, meaning I really don`t
want it. Some of the stuff I find useable, but often not as I find it.
Adjustment is a fact of portability.

>
Another problem with the skill system is that it offers powers
> based on a skill level.
>
> News flash buddy, but all the systems powers are based on level.
> Your template has an ECL +3, it means its considered a level 3. You
> need to be level 4 to even take the template.

Typically a feat does not offer power based on level. The Dodge feat offers
the same +1 bonus at 1st level as it does at 9th level. Skills do, in fact,
work differently than feats. News Flash, there buddy.

>
Templates are the simplist of the alternatives presented.
>
> No it isn`t, it is by far the most complicated one brought up.

Yes it is. Enlighting discussion, by the way.

>
It can totally emulate a level providing hit points, skill
> bonuses, save bonuses, and blood powers to make
> the ECL penalty.
>
> Might aswell make it a class.

Classes come with traits not found in templates, like multi-classing
penalties. The purpose of a template, as it works with races and monsters
is to overlay a fixed and unchanging set of abilities, rather like being
blooded. If you have frequent bloodtheft, frequent shifting from one
bloodstrength to another, a class system might suit you better. Since I
have never had a player shift bloodlines catagorically, I have need for
anything but a template. It avoids the certain defects of the class based
system.

> Templates are simple IF they are non changing. They will be a pain in
> the ass to use.

I do use them, and find them as complicated as I do the dwarf template.
Again, this is because no one has ever gone from a minor to a major
bloodline IMC. Too much bloodtheft would be required, and I rather leave
such things to be exteamly rare.

As a side note, see how handy it is when you explain your point of view,
rather than just state aphorisms?

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Ariadne

04-18-2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by ecliptic

You would rather have over powered characters or a complicated rule system or something that totally goes against d20. I perfer not to screw over the system in which this is being built for. If you want to play it, go play 2nd edition Birthright.

Must those and other words be? Please get back to analytic discussion without being insulting. Others try this too...

kgauck

04-18-2003, 05:01 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 10:59 AM

> For using templates - True you can`t start at 1st level with an
> ECL`d template.

True in once sense, false in another. ECL is only effective character
level. Other mechanics use true character level. Your maximum rank in a
class skill is your character level plus 3. A Fighter 1 with an ECL`d
template still only gets the same skill ceiling as the unblooded Fighter 1.
There are other uses for character level, its a quantity I have used for
several mechanics. ECL mostly just concerns establishing suitable
challenges and calculating how much experience an encounter with such a
challenge merits.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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ecliptic

04-18-2003, 05:23 PM

The purpose of a template, as it works with races and monsters
is to overlay a fixed and unchanging set of abilities

Thats right, fixed and unchanging.Which doesn't sit well with the scion.

If you have frequent bloodtheft, frequent shifting from one
bloodstrength to another, a class system might suit you better. Since I
have never had a player shift bloodlines catagorically, I have need for
anything but a template. It avoids the certain defects of the class based
system.

So you want it created for YOU, and no one else?

I do use them, and find them as complicated as I do the dwarf template.
Again, this is because no one has ever gone from a minor to a major
bloodline IMC. Too much bloodtheft would be required, and I rather leave
such things to be exteamly rare.

Sorry but you don't make something rare by making it so much of a pain in the ass no one simply wants to.

True in once sense, false in another. ECL is only effective character
level. Other mechanics use true character level. Your maximum rank in a
class skill is your character level plus 3. A Fighter 1 with an ECL`d
template still only gets the same skill ceiling as the unblooded Fighter 1.
There are other uses for character level, its a quantity I have used for
several mechanics. ECL mostly just concerns establishing suitable
challenges and calculating how much experience an encounter with such a
challenge merits.

You people complained about the complications the class gave. How their hitpoint adjustment wont be the same. Now you want to reduce the skills the person has?
It's the class problems to the extreme. Unless you have one person powerful then the rest of the adventure group.

irdeggman

04-18-2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by kgauck

----- Original Message -----
From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 10:59 AM

> For using templates - True you can`t start at 1st level with an
> ECL`d template.

True in once sense, false in another. ECL is only effective character
level. Other mechanics use true character level. Your maximum rank in a
class skill is your character level plus 3. A Fighter 1 with an ECL`d
template still only gets the same skill ceiling as the unblooded Fighter 1.
There are other uses for character level, its a quantity I have used for
several mechanics. ECL mostly just concerns establishing suitable
challenges and calculating how much experience an encounter with such a
challenge merits.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

Per the DMG pg 22 "Only let a player create one of these powerful characters when you would otherwise allow that player to create a higher-level standard character of equivalent power. Thus, if you would normally allow a player to create a 5th-level character, you can also allow him to create an ogre (with no class levels)."

This is in the section dealing with ECL'd races and is something we missed when we put together the playtest document. Savage Species outlined methods for allowing ECL'd races at 1st level via using monster classes which is what the 5-level scion class was constructed around. Based on SS being forward compatable I think it is safe to assume that the 3.5 DMG will follow this process.

You are very much correct in that ECL doesn't affect the maximum skill ranks that a character can have. Although it does affect the determination of the starting equipment and money.

geeman

04-18-2003, 05:50 PM

At 01:54 PM 4/18/2003 +0200, Michael Romes wrote:

>>...a fighter type could be an awnsheghlien (or ersheghlien) hunter
>>without a bloodline.
>
>In the Book of Magecraft such kind of character is already described,
>the "Bloodline hound", a specialized Magician.

Exactly. This would be a skill based way of reflecting that character
class`s abilities in d20.

>>A scion with skill in "bloodthievery" would get his ranks to that check.
>
>IF you invent such a skill check to see if a killer succeeds, then you
>need also to take bloodsilver weapons into account.

That`s a good point. Bloodsilver, however, doesn`t make bloodtheft more
likely, it just makes for a "more efficient" transfer of bloodline, so it`s
more the result of a successful bloodtheft that using such a weapon effects
rather than the ability to perform it.

>However if two scions fight each other, and one is rendered helpless,
>how could the other fail to pierce his heart with a coup de grace and
>commint bloodtheft?

I`ve never actually stabbed someone in the heart (literally, at least) but
from what I understand it`s not that easy. Assuming the victim isn`t
wearing armor a blade can still be turned by the hard bone across the
sternum and in the heat of the moment one might not hit the target which
is, after all, smaller than a grapefruit. The difficulty of an act of
bloodtheft against a helpless opponent might be DC 5, but where a coup de
grace might be automatic because there are several different acts that one
could perform to accomplish the deed, a stab through the heart might not be
the most convenient or functional action.

There is also the interpretation (my own) that an act of bloodtheft is
something of an act of will on the part of the thief. That is, releasing
the bloodline of another scion is not simply a matter of pricking the right
capillary. It might require some sort of willful effort that is a sort of
focus of the thief`s bloodline power. In such an interpretation releasing
the energies of another characters would be the equivalent of an act of
mental violence or a psychic blow. In a recent BR adventure I had
characters make a Bld check in order to gain control over a particular
magic item. The details aren`t particularly relevant, but the idea is
similar to this particular concepts, since the scions in question must
"activate" a particular kind of event based upon their own blooded skills.

Gary

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Birthright-L

04-18-2003, 05:50 PM

I would like to preface this by saying that I have NOT read ALL of the
previous posts on this subject, so if some of this has already been
brought up, I apologize.

I am in favour of have Scion a class (base, not prestige), as I think it
would be very easy to integrate, and would allow for ease of character
development while staying within the general confines of the d20 system.

It would allow PCs to start as scion characters if they wish, though it
would sacrifice early "adventuring" levels, it should still be playable,
depending on how it was set up (I would envision a character with d6hp,
and a BAB progression similar to clerics...a "middle of the road sort of
thing":). Bloodline would be a requirement for the class, and would be
determined separatly, similar to the 2nd ed method. However, bloodline
abilities, while related to your bloodline strength (which could be
anything from tainted to great at the time of character creation), would
be dependant on your scion level.

This would mean that all characters could start with a bloodline of any
strength, but their powers would be attributable to their scoin
level...meaning you wouldn`t get overpowering characters early on.

I know this might seem unfair to those who want to have the powerful
fighter/ scion, mage/scion etc, but I think it would consitute a middle of
the road type of character. If you want big bloodline powers, you`d have
to ramp up your scion levels, meaning your increas in bloodline powers
would be tempered by your loss of "adventuring class" abilities.

It would also get rid of more unwieldly things like calculating ECLs, etc.

Sorry I didn`t have time to come up with an example of the class
progression, but I`ll try to post something if I can.

Comments? Am I just repeating something that`s already been said? :)

Dark

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geeman

04-18-2003, 06:46 PM

At 07:23 PM 4/18/2003 +0200, ecliptic wrote:

>
The purpose of a template, as it works with races and monsters
>is to overlay a fixed and unchanging set of abilities
>
>Thats right, fixed and unchanging.Which doesn`t sit well with the scion.

Several templates actually have effects that scale up with character
level. Mostly these are ones presented in Dragon or similar
places. Templates need not be fixed and unchanging.

>
If you have frequent bloodtheft, frequent shifting from one
>bloodstrength to another, a class system might suit you better. Since I
>have never had a player shift bloodlines catagorically, I have need for
>anything but a template. It avoids the certain defects of the class based
>system.
>
>So you want it created for YOU, and no one else?

You really need to start paying more attention to the tone and content of
your responses, eclectic. Nothing in the above quoted comments has
anything to do with your response, so not only is your response
non-sequitur but it is a confrontational non-sequitur at that.

>
I do use them, and find them as complicated as I do the dwarf template.
>Again, this is because no one has ever gone from a minor to a major
>bloodline IMC. Too much bloodtheft would be required, and I rather leave
>such things to be exteamly rare.
>
>Sorry but you don`t make something rare by making it so much of a pain in
>the ass no one simply wants to.

Again, non-sequitur, confrontational, rude and... well, I`m afraid it also
applies pretty well to most your suggestions since they would certainly
require an awful lot of effort to implement, so you`re also being
hypocritical here.

If you`re unable to respond without keeping a civil tone, I`m afraid I`m
going to have to ask you not to respond. There have been several
complaints and comments regarding you`re behavior. I`ve started getting
email off the list regarding your behavior, which is when I am obligated to
step in. I`ve asked you once that you be more careful regarding your tone,
and there have been several other posts commenting on your behavior. It`s
time to knock off the name calling and vulgarity, eclectic, and it would
certainly help if you would start responding to the actual statements
made. If you have anything specifically you want to ask please email me
directly at geeman@softhome.net.

>
True in once sense, false in another. ECL is only effective character
>level. Other mechanics use true character level. Your maximum rank in a
>class skill is your character level plus 3. A Fighter 1 with an ECL`d
>template still only gets the same skill ceiling as the unblooded Fighter 1.
>There are other uses for character level, its a quantity I have used for
>several mechanics. ECL mostly just concerns establishing suitable
>challenges and calculating how much experience an encounter with such a
>challenge merits.
>
>
>You people complained about the complications the class gave. How they
>wont be as strong as everyone else. How their hitpoint adjustment wont be
>the same. Now you want to reduce the skills the person has?
>It`s the class problems to the extreme. Unless you have one person
>powerful then the rest of the adventure group.

I`m not quite sure what it is you`re saying here, so I can`t tell if it`s
non-sequitur or not.... It would appear to be since the comments were
about how ECL functions and you responded with hit points and skills....

Gary

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ryancaveney

04-18-2003, 07:00 PM

On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, ecliptic wrote:

> Bloodsilver like regular silver is considered a +1 weapon.

Where did you get this idea? What makes you think bloodsilver is actually
anything like silver? I don`t think it`s really a kind of silver any more
than quicksilver (i.e. mercury) is really a kind of silver, or a guinea
pig (a South American rodent) is actually a pig from Guinea (in Africa).

Tighmaevril is an extremely magical substance, whose properties and nature
are almost entirely unknown. No one in Cerilia is sure what it really is,
and the designers didn`t have much to say to us, either. This means of
course there are lots of house rules about it; what you propose above is
such a house rule, which might work for you (it`s not nearly powerful
enough for my taste), but which is certainly not in any way canonical.

Ryan Caveney

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ConjurerDragon

04-18-2003, 07:00 PM

ecliptic wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>ecliptic wrote:
>...
>
However if two scions fight each other, and one is rendered helpless,
>how could the other fail to pierce his heart with a coup de grace and
>commint bloodtheft?
>Um the object is to limit how much blood power they get from the blood theft. If his blood power is more powerful then his opponents, he should be able to try and hold onto it. For if he is ressurected or brought back to life, he still holds his power.
>Hence the skill role.
>
That would be a very big change. In 2E Birthright when a scion dies, he
loses automatically his bloodline. Either his designated heir gets it or
the land choses to whom it goes. That is in detail described on p. 83
Book of Priestcraft. Please not another change that is not needed.

>
If bloodline becomes an exclusive skill, then
>bloodline=skillpoints=regency collected, not to be influenced by
>spending skill points but only by spending regency/bloodtheft?
>
>
>Like I said before. The bloodline skill reperesents your ability to hone your bloodline.
>
3E limits skill to level +3. How would a level 1 scion ever be able to
have a great bloodline with great abilitys if he can have a maximum of 4
skill points in bloodline?
bye
Michael Romes

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ecliptic

04-18-2003, 07:02 PM

Several templates actually have effects that scale up with character
level. Mostly these are ones presented in Dragon or similar
places. Templates need not be fixed and unchanging.

I wouldn't be basing any of my stuff out of something that comes in Dragon.

It's not a really reliable place to pull balanced stuff out of.

Again, non-sequitur, confrontational, rude and... well, I`m afraid it also
applies pretty well to most your suggestions since they would certainly
require an awful lot of effort to implement, so you`re also being
hypocritical here.

It has to be confrontational. The average human stays with one train of thought and never wants to leave it.

I`m not quite sure what it is you`re saying here, so I can`t tell if it`s
non-sequitur or not.... It would appear to be since the comments were
about how ECL functions and you responded with hit points and skills....

What I am saying is that almost every problem that came with Class based applies to ECL but with additional problems.

ConjurerDragon

04-18-2003, 07:24 PM

Gary wrote:

> At 01:54 PM 4/18/2003 +0200, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>> ...a fighter type could be an awnsheghlien (or ersheghlien) hunter
>>> without a bloodline.
>>
>>
>> In the Book of Magecraft such kind of character is already described,
>> the "Bloodline hound", a specialized Magician.
>
> Exactly. This would be a skill based way of reflecting that character
> class`s abilities in d20.

Are you also planning a skill based way of reflecting a fireball in D20?
Having 10 ranks in "Ball of Fire" skill allow to roast a dozen soldiers
in 20 yards radius? ;-)

Why change a spell to a skill?
bye
Michael Romes

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ryancaveney

04-18-2003, 07:24 PM

On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, Gary wrote:

> Bloodsilver, however, doesn`t make bloodtheft more likely, it just
> makes for a "more efficient" transfer of bloodline, so it`s more the
> result of a successful bloodtheft that using such a weapon effects
> rather than the ability to perform it.

I`m not so sure of that. If stabbing someone in the heart is as difficult
as you say, and given the very large amount of power channeled through the
tighmaevril weapon on a successful strike, then I`d be inclined to think
that such a sword really would seek out the heart. I think bloodsilver
probably should be especially drawn to the hearts of blooded scions, in a
very physical way. I think failing to stab a scion in the heart with a
tighmaevril sword would be like trying not to hit a big magnet with a
ten-pound bar of iron -- in fact, I think the effective "magnetic field
strength" should be proportional to the target`s bloodline score. This
idea has something to do with why IMC I have long considered all
tighmaevril weapons as being inherently Of Slaying Blooded Scions, purely
by their inherent material properties, and independent of any additional
enchantment placed upon them. You can probably also use tighmaevril
weapons as dowsing rods to find source manifestations, given the closeness
of the regency-mebhaighl connection.

That said, however, I am still partial to the idea that the whole
"stabbing through the heart" business is purely a poetic turn of phrase,
and that any close-range kill is good enough. In particular, since part
of the inspiration for this mechanic is clearly the movie "Highlander", I
think beheading a scion should also work just fine. In fact, if you kill
someone with a high enough bloodline score (certainly any of the high-end
awnsheghlien in the 100ish range), I think the movie special effects
(lightning, high winds, etc.) of the transfer of blood power ought to
happen exactly as shown on film.

Ryan Caveney

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geeman

04-18-2003, 07:45 PM

At 09:02 PM 4/18/2003 +0200, ecliptic wrote:

>It has to be confrontational. The average human stays with one train of
>thought and never wants to leave it.

Please contact me directly at geeman@softhome.net.

Gary

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geeman

04-18-2003, 07:45 PM

At 09:07 PM 4/18/2003 +0200, Michael Romes wrote:

>>>>...a fighter type could be an awnsheghlien (or ersheghlien) hunter
>>>>without a bloodline.
>>>
>>>In the Book of Magecraft such kind of character is already described,
>>>the "Bloodline hound", a specialized Magician.
>>
>>Exactly. This would be a skill based way of reflecting that character
>>class`s abilities in d20.
>
>Are you also planning a skill based way of reflecting a fireball in D20?
>Having 10 ranks in "Ball of Fire" skill allow to roast a dozen soldiers
>in 20 yards radius? ;-)

You wouldn`t be the first person to make that particular suggestion. In
fact, something like that would be workable, and I like the idea that
spellcasting is a skill rather than the rather strange "spell slot" method
that D&D uses. It would probably fit better into some of the BR themes....

In this case, though, a skill would just allow a character to track (with a
feat much the same way Wilderness Lore/Tracking works) a scion based upon
his ability to Detect Bloodline, a skill I wrote up a while back:

http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A...D=0&H=0&O=T&T=1 (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0209A&L=birthright-l&P=R6891&D=0&H=0&O=T&T=1)

Gary

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ryancaveney

04-18-2003, 07:45 PM

On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Lord Rahvin wrote:

> I mean, putting any conversations about 2e and 3e and such aside, for
> the most part we`re used to a class-based system. Why should
> archetyping characters of a similiar concept and category into a
> standard advancement table really cause a stir?

The thing I don`t like about all the various scion class ideas we`ve seen
is not the stereotyping, but rather all the excess baggage that comes
along with class implementations in general. To me, bloodline score alone
should determine RP collection and blood abilities. I don`t think there
should be any way to increase bloodline score other than spending RP or
committing bloodtheft. Upon such an increase, I don`t think BAB, HD,
feats, skills, ability scores or XP advancement should change. A
bloodline model using classes necessarily contains all those extra things
that I don`t think should be directly related to the bloodline score.

Ryan Caveney

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ecliptic

04-18-2003, 07:58 PM

Theres alot of things that could be 'skill point' based but I think the reason WotC kept spellcasting, combat and such all seperate systems is to keep it atleast somewhat straight forward. One of the essences of D&D is its spells and spell system.

Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel

04-18-2003, 08:04 PM

Anything that is used in your campaign should be altered to fit the style your players play and your own preferences. The idea of a rulebook is to provide a general set of rules that are as near perfect as humanly possible.

Not every problem that occurs due to a class system is inherent in an ECL system. For instance, with an ECL/template system, no experience is required to acquire blood abilities. They are inborn, or acquired through the raising of a bloodline score. The original system for birthright assumed that Tainted/Minor/Major/Great/True was nearly static. In the Book of Regency, a process was described that would allow a player of a character to expend great effort to raise his bloodline level. This was limited to once per character in that reference.

A template can be created that scales its ECL based on the Bloodline Strength Score. It could offer certain powers and bonuses for higher bloodline scores. This will not be very difficult to do. It will also allow for a proper ECL for a character who has a Tainted Bloodline but a 40 bloodline score, thus more abilities than a Great Bloodline with 14 bloodline score. Each template would have its own scale, which would be based entirely upon the bloodline score (which is completely alien to the d20 system, typically).

Examples: (Not by any means final)
Tainted
Basic Regent Abilities
No Extraneous Bonuses due to Bloodline strength

Score -- Abilities
0 - 10 -- No Abilities, ECL +0
11 - 20 -- Add a Minor Blood Abilty, ECL +1
21 - 25 -- Add a Minor Blood Ability, ECL +1
26 - 30 -- Add a Minor Blood Ability, ECL +1
31 - 35 -- Add a Major Blood Ability, ECL +2
etc,

Minor
Basic Regent Abilities
Some undefined minor bonuses to social skills and/or physical abilities
- enough bonuses to allow for an ECL +1 without any blood abilities

Score -- Abilities
0 - 10 -- No Abilities, ECL +1
11 - 20 -- Add a Minor Blood Abilty, ECL +1
21 - 25 -- Add a Minor Blood Ability, ECL +2
26 - 30 -- Add a Major Blood Ability, ECL +2
31 - 35 -- Upgrade a Minor Blood Ability to a Major Blood Ability, ECL +3
etc,

These are not absolutes, but I believe I've made my point. A system such as this would be an excellent reflection from 2E into 3E, while being more balanced to boot.
The only real problem I have with using a class to represent bloodlines is that it requires experience to advance in blood abilities. While that it is similar to the young monster concept from AEG's Monster supplement and WotC's Savage Species, I don't necessarily enjoy the idea of combat and adventure experience determining someone's growth patterns in any case.
I also think that blood ability acquisition should be free from character level requirements. The ECL system provides a way to introduce the concept into a non-adventuring game, such as a PBEM, as well as an adventure oriented game.

Everyone knows that killing monsters and solving adventure problems are the only official and universal ways to garner experience. In order to balance a non-adventuring high-bloodpower regent with an adventuring high-bloodpower character, in a class system, is to make regent/domain decisions about equivalent to adventures. Typically, characters don't adventure 12 months a year. Thus, maybe domain actions don't need to be equivalent (experience-wise) to adventures. But consider the regent-adventurer, he can now gain experience for adventures and for domain actions. Naturally an adventuring regent would gain more experience than a non-adventuring regent, but adventuring should not be a pre-requisite for blood abilities anyways.

ECL's are independent of experience. I suggest that if suddenly your ECL raises, and a character technically doesn't have enough experience to reach his current character level, just leave him as is. A character shouldn't be penalized for improving his bloodline (an ECL is not a punishment, it is a method to judge encounter values).

Example:
Blooded Human ECL +1 commits bloodtheft and becomes ECL +2
He was a level 6 Fighter with an ECL of 7 and experience of 26,000
He would then become a level 6 Fighter, ECL 8 and experience 26,000
He now needs 36,000 experience to reach level 7 as a fighter, instead of 28,000

I don't know if I'm making my point but I'm trying.

irdeggman

04-18-2003, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by ecliptic

Theres alot of things that could be 'skill point' based but I think the reason WotC kept spellcasting, combat and such all seperate systems is to keep it atleast somewhat straight forward. One of the essences of D&D is its spells and spell system.

Don't forget armor and armor class.

D&D is about the only remaining WotC product that uses armor and armor class in this manner. Star Wars uses a competed different approach with defense bonus being class level based and armor applying damage reduction to critical hits. Of course since their hit point system is different vitality points (the things you roll at each character level) and wounds (the character's CON score) and critical hits get applied directly to wounds.

Wheel of Time and d20 Modern both use a similar approach to defense bonus.:)

irdeggman

04-18-2003, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by Birthright-L

I would like to preface this by saying that I have NOT read ALL of the
previous posts on this subject, so if some of this has already been
brought up, I apologize.

I am in favour of have Scion a class (base, not prestige), as I think it
would be very easy to integrate, and would allow for ease of character
development while staying within the general confines of the d20 system.

It would allow PCs to start as scion characters if they wish, though it
would sacrifice early "adventuring" levels, it should still be playable,
depending on how it was set up (I would envision a character with d6hp,
and a BAB progression similar to clerics...a "middle of the road sort of
thing":). Bloodline would be a requirement for the class, and would be
determined separatly, similar to the 2nd ed method. However, bloodline
abilities, while related to your bloodline strength (which could be
anything from tainted to great at the time of character creation), would
be dependant on your scion level.

This would mean that all characters could start with a bloodline of any
strength, but their powers would be attributable to their scoin
level...meaning you wouldn`t get overpowering characters early on.

I know this might seem unfair to those who want to have the powerful
fighter/ scion, mage/scion etc, but I think it would consitute a middle of
the road type of character. If you want big bloodline powers, you`d have
to ramp up your scion levels, meaning your increas in bloodline powers
would be tempered by your loss of "adventuring class" abilities.

It would also get rid of more unwieldly things like calculating ECLs, etc.

Sorry I didn`t have time to come up with an example of the class
progression, but I`ll try to post something if I can.

Comments? Am I just repeating something that`s already been said? :)

Dark

Dark,
I strongly suggest that you visit the Birthright.net web site. Specifically the discussion boards. This thread is in the BRCS d20 playtest discussion board. The major weakness with the mailing list is playing "catch up" and trying to find out what has been discussed previously. You don't need to register on the board to read the postings, you would if you wanted to post directly. But as you can see the mailing list gets the posts posted also.:)

ecliptic

04-18-2003, 08:37 PM

For instance, with an ECL/template system, no experience is required to acquire blood abilities.

Sure there is, a level 3 with a 5 ECL needs the same experience to level up as a normal level 8 does.

They are inborn, or acquired through the raising of a bloodline score. The original system for birthright assumed that Tainted/Minor/Major/Great/True was nearly static.

Yet it was possible to easily adjust your character if you did go up. Even though it was unbalanced.

A template can be created that scales its ECL based on the Bloodline Strength Score. It could offer certain powers and bonuses for higher bloodline scores. This will not be very difficult to do. It will also allow for a proper ECL for a character who has a Tainted Bloodline but a 40 bloodline score, thus more abilities than a Great Bloodline with 14 bloodline score. Each template would have its own scale, which would be based entirely upon the bloodline score (which is completely alien to the d20 system, typically).

Templates are unbalanced and the one you described is even more unbalanced. Someone with the same ECL as another person could have more powers.

Everyone knows that killing monsters and solving adventure problems are the only official and universal ways to garner experience. In order to balance a non-adventuring high-bloodpower regent with an adventuring high-bloodpower character, in a class system, is to make regent/domain decisions about equivalent to adventures. Typically, characters don't adventure 12 months a year. Thus, maybe domain actions don't need to be equivalent (experience-wise) to adventures. But consider the regent-adventurer, he can now gain experience for adventures and for domain actions. Naturally an adventuring regent would gain more experience than a non-adventuring regent, but adventuring should not be a pre-requisite for blood abilities anyways.

Giving EXP for roleplaying purposes is upto the DM. The skill/feat system has it setup for them to atleast gaining some blood power for doing in game actions by giving bonus bloodline skill points for taking over a province and such.

ECL's are independent of experience. I suggest that if suddenly your ECL raises, and a character technically doesn't have enough experience to reach his current character level, just leave him as is. A character shouldn't be penalized for improving his bloodline (an ECL is not a punishment, it is a method to judge encounter values).

What happens when someone of 18th level steals someones blood and poofs go up by ECL 1. I know damn well no one in their right mind would trade 19th level for some minor blood power. ECLs assume you are first making the character.

Ontop of all that was discussed, why increase templates just that much more when you don't have to? Awnshegh would need another one ontop of its first one to have a bloodline.

geeman

04-18-2003, 09:01 PM

At 09:58 PM 4/18/2003 +0200, ecliptic wrote:

> Theres alot of things that could be `skill point` based but I think
> the reason WotC kept spellcasting, combat and such all seperate systems
> is to keep it atleast somewhat straight forward. One of the essences of
> D&D is its spells and spell system.

I think that`s quite right. The spell system was a "sacred cow" in the
conversion from 2e to 3e. By and large I think the D&D spell system is
pretty bad, especially when transferred into campaign settings (like BR)
which view magic differently. I really wonder what BR`s magic system would
look like had it been written originally with d20 in mind rather than
trying to make it conform to 2e. In many ways I think it would be very
different. Character classes would probably change, there would have been
a few more skills, and the magic system would probably have been quite
different.

Gary

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Shade

04-18-2003, 09:01 PM

At 05:45 PM 4/15/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, irdeggman wrote:
>> I`m pretty sure that I had previously stated why I felt that using
>> Charisma as the basis for blood abilities is not a wise choice.
>
>So it shouldn`t be discussed at all? Because yours is the final word,
>after all. All your objections are stated, but blood abilities are powers
>tied to the personal invoking ability of the creature. Dragons,
>celestials, and many other creatures with supernatural powers have them
>based on Charisma in just this way. Charisma represents force of
>personality. Other than the absurd `bloodline ability score`, it`s the
>best fit for powers of this type.

It gives too much of a benefit to bards, paladins, and sorcerers, who will
effectively get two for the price of one... this has been discussed at
length before, Daniel.

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ecliptic

04-18-2003, 09:13 PM

It gives too much of a benefit to bards, paladins, and sorcerers, who will
effectively get two for the price of one... this has been discussed at
length before, Daniel.

No more advantage and would be no different then someone multiclassing cleric/druid.

kgauck

04-18-2003, 09:45 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 2:07 PM

> Are you also planning a skill based way of reflecting a fireball in D20?
> Having 10 ranks in "Ball of Fire" skill allow to roast a dozen soldiers
> in 20 yards radius? ;-)
>
> Why change a spell to a skill?

I actively integrate spells into the skill system. The more skill checks
that I can apply to spells the happier I am. If I had a nice way to
substitute the damage die in Fireball for a skill check, I`d certainly do
it. The easiest spells to integrate are the ones where the spell can
provide a bonus to a skill check, rather than provide a die roll. Discern
Lies can provide a large divine bonus for a Sense Motive check to counter
attempts other characters may make to Bluff you.

A skill in question for Fireball would be a Lore (Fire), BTW. You could use
that skill on all Fire descriptor spells. :-)

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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ecliptic

04-18-2003, 10:22 PM

Can't really change it, it would no longer be under the D&D SRD and you would have to slap OGL on it and no d20.

geeman

04-18-2003, 11:02 PM

At 04:32 PM 4/18/2003 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>That`s just an old gamer`s wife`s tale.

Since when do gamers have wives?

Gary

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kgauck

04-18-2003, 11:02 PM

Scions don`t really stab each other in the heart. That`s just an old
gamer`s wife`s tale.

Scions don`t magically produce coins from behind your ear. That`s just
slight of hand.

Scions can see themselves in mirrors. You are thinking of vampires.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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kgauck

04-18-2003, 11:02 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 3:14 PM

> D&D is about the only remaining WotC product that uses armor
> and armor class in this manner. Star Wars uses a competed
> different approach with defense bonus being class level based
> and armor applying damage reduction to critical hits.

BR needs to switch over as well. Brecht fighting styles are daffy unless a
good portion of a fighter`s defense comes from the fact that he is a
fighter, rather than the fact that he could be wearing armor. Its also nice
for berserkers to go bear because they are replying on their class AC bonus.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Birthright-L

04-18-2003, 11:02 PM

> Dark,
> I strongly suggest that you visit the Birthright.net web site. Specifically the discussion boards. This thread is in the BRCS d20 playtest discussion board. The major weakness with the mailing list is playing "catch up" and trying to find out what has been discussed previously. You don`t need to register on the board to read the postings, you would if you wanted to post directly. But as you can see the mailing list gets the posts posted also.:)
>

Done, thanks for the direction. Most of my points seem to echo points
posted by Peter Lubke...which only goes to show that great minds think
alike :)...

Seriously..there are a number of issues which keep popping up which need
to be addressed in a general sort of way to resolve this issue.

First seems to be the way Scions are pictured by people in their various
campaigns..all the way from the Blooded Anuirean Emperor to the Vos
Barbarian with no ties to anything resembling rulership. Scions can be
run of the mill schmoes with no nobility at all in their past. With such
a broad range of things to cover, its obvious nothing is going to be
perfect, so whatever solution comes up is going to be very general.

Second issue (which combines a few things) is the ECL/ balance issue. Its
difficult to make all the PCs "equal" if some are more equal than
others.(Eg a fighter 1 with bloodline ECL`d to EL 3 is obviously better
than the plain old fighter 1) Anything that isn`t balanced at the start
(like ECLs) may cause propbelms early on in a campaign, but should (if
done properly) balance out over the long run. I think (and people can
argue with me here) that most would prefer something that is relatively
balanced from the start, and stays that way. It can save a lot of hassle
in the long run ("what do you mean my PC has 5000 xp and still hasn`t gone
up a level...") Something like bloodline which doesn`t really have a
balancing equivalent needs to be implemented in some sort of restricted
fashion, or it becomes unbalanced..(see more below) This is why I (and
others) recommended that bloodline (or at least their abilities) become
part of a class..this would restrict their use somewhat.

Part of the problem with haveing bloodline abilities as feats is that
certain classes have more access to feats than others (see fighter vs
priest). While I know that the extra feats the fighter gets are
restricted, this does mean that all the "level" feats can go into
bloodline abilities, while still being able to pick up the "fighter"
feats. The priest doesn`t have that luxury, so he/she has to pick between
something that would be useful as a priest feat or a bloodline feat. Not
really all that bad, but still an issue none-the-less. Same thing applies
to skill points, as thieves obviously would have it all over fighters :)

Essentially, my thoughts are that whatever system is chosen, it needs to
be able to be universally applied and be internally consistant...meaning
(at least to me :) ) that a blooded scion shouldn`t be more powerful than
any other character of equivalent level, including other scions.

To my mind, the easiest way if introducing special abilities in the d20
system is through classes. You`ve got your choice of standard or
prestige, and since we (or at least me..) want this available at first
level, that would mean standard class...call it Scion to keep the thread
consistant.

Once you take the scion class, you roll your bloodline, derivation and
strength (tainted - great). I`ve read the 5 level scion class proposed by
irdeggman, and have a bit of a problem with the fact that characters gain
in bloodline by simply going up in the class. I`d propose methods similar
to 2nd ed where you can only raise your bloodline through a) blood theft
or B) spending rps. Any scion would have the ability to use their
bloodline to collect RPs, however, to gain access to bloodline abilities,
they`d have to advance in the class. This would enable PCs to have
significant bloodlines and be able to rule, while still balancing
the advantages that come with gaining blood abilities. You have to give
up your class abilites to gain your bloodline abilities (as with any
multiclass character).

I admit I`m no game designer, so I`ve yet to come up with an overall
outline of the class...its very difficult to make things like skills
specific enough for the class and general enough that it can be applicable
to all people who might be scions..however I might get lucky and be able
to post something later..The basics of BAB, saving throws and hp I think
are fairly simple...but a progression for use of bloodline abilites gets
more complicated.

Anyway, if anyone has any comments or objections, let me know...I`ll see
what I can come up with in the mean time.

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ryancaveney

04-18-2003, 11:02 PM

On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, Gary wrote:

> Since when do gamers have wives?

Some of us were clever enough to choose wives who are themselves gamers. =)

Ryan Caveney

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geeman

04-18-2003, 11:24 PM

At 06:46 PM 4/18/2003 -0400, Ryan Caveney wrote:

> > Since when do gamers have wives?
>
>Some of us were clever enough to choose wives who are themselves gamers. =)

Pshaw. Gamers have _cohorts_. Wives... they might as well be DM
controlled, party experience point leeching NPCs.... Girlfriends who are
gamers one can at least boot out when the gaming is done (or soon thereafter.)

Maybe this could be expressed as a feat called "Married" or something that
worked much like Leadership? A prestige class might make sense....

Gary

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Lord Rahvin

04-18-2003, 11:24 PM

> Can`t really change it, it would no longer be under the D20 SRD and you would have to slap OGL on it and no d20.

I have no problem with that.
I`m of the opinion that anything that needs to be changed to better reflect
the setting, the game themes, and make for a fun game, should be changed.
You really wouldn`t want to play an OGL Birthright just because it isn`t d20
Birthright?

That being said, though, there are plenty of d20 products that use a Defense
score. D20Modern is one of them, and that one even stacks with armor, and
it`s a core rulebook so all of that is OGL. Anything taken from d20Modern
applies to that stupid little d20 logo, so you could have Defense scores and
still have the d20 logo, if you want. You don`t have to take anything else
from that book if you don`t want to, but I`d recommend doing it.

-Lord Rahvin

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Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel

04-19-2003, 03:08 AM

I like the idea of a defense score similar to other systems and would like to see how that would pan out. In fact, I prefer a skill based combat system in coordination to the BAB, but I won't impress these heretical ideas upon you fine people.

My comment earlier about the bloodline score being alien to the d20 system referred to any conversion of the system I've seen, so was not meant to be a specific point for my proposed system.

Blooded Scions are supposed to be better than unblooded characters. That's the beauty of the system. A 1st level regent-scion fighter is better than a 1st level commoner-unblooded fighter. I believe that that is reflected by the ECL system. Yes, some characters are better than others, by all means a 1st level King should have more power than the 1st level Captain he hires to run the police of a small village.

Yes, it is possible for a guy with Animal Affinity (Minor) and Healing (Minor) does have more powers than the guy with just Healing (Minor). But is Animal Affinity worth an entire level? But Animal Affinity (minor) for one skill point is significantly more powerful than hide for one skill point.

For instance, with an ECL/template system, no experience is required to acquire blood abilities.Sure there is, a level 3 with a 5 ECL needs the same experience to level up as a normal level 8 does.

True, it does require that character the same amount of experience to go to level 4 as a level 8 normally requires for level 9. However, the blood abilities are not acquired as a level-up feature.

Birthright Rulebook pp. 32-33
"Unblooded PCs gain a special 10% bonus to their experience point awards to compensate for their common origins."

That is essentially the ECL system. Except, when using a scaling template, it actually takes into account the fact that the most powerfully blooded characters simply have an easier time going through life (therefore, they gain less experience for the same encounters; because they are easier). No up-front experience acquisition is required for blood ability acquisition, no skill development, nothing except bloodline score. A class system requires experience, a skill system requires experience without exhaustive restructuring.
The main problem I have with an experience dependent system is that its blood ability acquisition method favors those who work hard, not those who are born high and don't have to do much. A 1st level sedentary courtier with a 40 point Great bloodline should have more blood abilities than a 20th level fighter with a 10 point tainted bloodline, regardless of how many more levels of a scion class or ranks in a skill the fighter has than the courtier. In addition, the courtier should collect more regency and be able to pour more regency into domain actions than the fighter with the smaller bloodline and unless the fighter saved up for a long time.
That said, I would be partial to saying that that 20th level fighter may be better at his fewer and lesser blood-abilities because he has trained more in using them. I do believe that some blood abilities shouldn't be affected by a skill rank when using a system similar to this. I also believe that the fighter could possibly be a better ruler, due to better policies and whatnot.
As far as different scion concepts, a template addresses this because it doesn't have to give certain class skills, skill points, or hit dice which could possibly force a scion in a specific role-playing direction. For instance, a barbarian with a scion template doesn't have to worry about advancing in a class that focuses on social skills. If you use a class, you are saying that the scion is stuck with a certain subset of skills that possibly wouldn't be necessary for their life path. If you use a skill system, you have to change the system in order to take into account bloodtheft, regency, and other Birthright constructs.

The skill/feat system has it setup for them to atleast gaining some blood power for doing in game actions by giving bonus bloodline skill points for taking over a province and such.

Could you explain how this works, I honestly don't see how this is supposed to work or balance. I also do not see how gaining the Birthright equivalent of 'super powers' from expenditure of skill points is balanced.

Templates are unbalanced and the one you described is even more unbalanced. Someone with the same ECL as another person could have more powers.

I said my example system wasn't a final system, so please don't tell me its unbalanced. I hadn't playtested it, it was merely an example of what it could possibly resemble. I know its unbalanced and it wouldn't stay that way. Your other point, that Templates are unbalanced, seems to be a little extreme. I do not see how all templates are unbalanced. Could you provide an example of an official one and prove that this is the rule rather than the exception?

What happens when someone of 18th level steals someones blood and poofs go up by ECL 1. I know damn well no one in their right mind would trade 19th level for some minor blood power. ECLs assume you are first making the character.

Ontop of all that was discussed, why increase templates just that much more when you don't have to? Awnshegh would need another one ontop of its first one to have a bloodline.

Perhaps the Awnshegh and Ershegh templates could incorporate and replace the standard blooded scion template(s). As far as the 18th level dilemma, the ECL is theoretically supposed to hold true over the standard 20 level progression. While this may generally be more true at lower and mid-levels, that's part of the sacrifice that playing a character with an ECL entails.

My point (summarized):

My Mom:

Life isn't fair
Balance as far as power level is one thing, but a high bloodline score is indicative of being more powerful. Since a high bloodline score can be inherited, this power should also be inherent to the higher score. Thus, first level Great Scion with a high bloodline strength score is more powerful than a first level Major Scion with a lower bloodline score and so forth. Therefore, I believe a template system offers the most overall benefit.

Azazel

04-19-2003, 09:45 AM

A blooded scion is a character who has divine essence coursing through
is body. The more essence he posseses (bloodline rating) and the more
chances he as of devlopping/possessing an ability of the old Gods. It as
nothing wathsoever to do with class, level or feats.

Birthrigh-L wrote:

>Essentially, my thoughts are that whatever system is chosen, it needs to
>be able to be universally applied and be internally consistant...meaning
>(at least to me) that a blooded scion shouldn`t be more powerful than
>any other character of equivalent level, including other scions.

I dont agree with this. Scions are meant to be more powerful, this is what
the whole idea of a blooded individual is. The Birthright setting was
design with the purpose of letting players be kings/great rulers and the
whole concept of bloodlines was to give them the power to do so.

Azazel

ConjurerDragon

04-19-2003, 01:26 PM

Michael Romes wrote:

> ecliptic wrote:
>
>> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
>> You can view the entire thread at:
>> http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>> ecliptic wrote:
>> ...
>>
However if two scions fight each other, and one is rendered
>> helpless,
>> how could the other fail to pierce his heart with a coup de grace and
>> commint bloodtheft?
>> Um the object is to limit how much blood power they get from the
>> blood theft. If his blood power is more powerful then his opponents,
>> he should be able to try and hold onto it. For if he is ressurected
>> or brought back to life, he still holds his power.
>> Hence the skill role.
>
> That would be a very big change. In 2E Birthright when a scion dies, he
> loses automatically his bloodline. Either his designated heir gets it or
> the land choses to whom it goes. That is in detail described on p. 83
> Book of Priestcraft. Please not another change that is not needed.

Another thought to this:
Death means to lose your bloodline. That was so in 2E and most agree to
this that it should not change in 3E/D20.

Now if you die, you do not lose your class levels, because if you are
resurrected you still are e.g. a fighter 7.

What you lose if you die are templates, e.g. a lycantroph who is killed
reverts to his human form - the curse is taken from him.

That is another reason to avoid a class based solution and make
bloodline/scions templates.
bye
Michael Romes

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ConjurerDragon

04-19-2003, 01:26 PM

Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>
> Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel wrote:
>...
>Not every problem that occurs due to a class system is inherent in an ECL system. For instance, with an ECL/template system, no experience is required to acquire blood abilities. They are inborn, or acquired through the raising of a bloodline score. The original system for birthright assumed that Tainted/Minor/Major/Great/True was nearly static. In the Book of Regency, a process was described that would allow a player of a character to expend great effort to raise his bloodline level. This was limited to once per character in that reference.
>
Ahem. Once per generation, so a scion with the long life ability could
happen to raise it twice or even more - however absolutey unlikely in an
actually played game which would never last that long.

>Example:
>Blooded Human ECL +1 commits bloodtheft and becomes ECL +2
>He was a level 6 Fighter with an ECL of 7 and experience of 26,000
>He would then become a level 6 Fighter, ECL 8 and experience 26,000
> He now needs 36,000 experience to reach level 7 as a fighter, instead of 28,000
>I don`t know if I`m making my point but I`m trying.
>
Do I understand it right, that if the ECl is raised automatically then
the character gains bloodability also automatically and immediately?
Because if you only gain a bloodline but do not automatically gain
bloodabilitys the raised ECL would not be justified.
bye
Michael Romes

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ConjurerDragon

04-19-2003, 01:26 PM

Ryan B. Caveney wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Apr 2003, Gary wrote:
>
>>Since when do gamers have wives?
>>
>Some of us were clever enough to choose wives who are themselves gamers. =)
>Ryan Caveney
>
That are just fairy tales - there are no female role-playing-gamers as
anyone knows ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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Peter Lubke

04-19-2003, 02:44 PM

On Fri, 2003-04-18 at 13:09, Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel wrote:
This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.
php?TID=1472

Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel wrote:
The problem I see with this concept is that people are thinking about
the setting in a traditional D&D sense. Game balance was based on each
character`s abilities in comparison with other characters of supposedly
equal strength.

However, the typical Birthright game has a combination of rulership and
adventure. A typical ruler would not normally be 1st level, ECL 1. A
character would typically have been trained and have a bit of experience
upon receiving the mantle of leadership. If you use the character`s
that pre-exist in the game, it would be difficult to find low-level
regents, even newly ascended ones, and even harder to find low-level
regents near each other.

Well, I`m not sure that you can represent a case for just what you
perceive to be the "typical Birthright game" (and that`s irrespective of
"whatever" your idea of normal is). Any set of rules should cater for
most possible uses of that set of rules, in this case: both (a)
completely domain based, and (B) without any use of domain rules - and
all cases in between.

Secondly, I don`t see why a ruler need by even 1st level when you get
down to it. If, that is, he/she inherited rulership of a domain. In
order to carve out and create a domain - do you really need adventuring
skills? (possibly not - if you have the cash or charisma to get others
to do the risky adventuring for you) If bloodline is all you need to be
an inheritor of power - then a character class isn`t even relevant. (Of
course, this begs the question of why all 2nd ed BR regents have classes
- and the answer may be that they were thought of as potential player
characters.)

One of the great strengths of BR is that it tried to break the "class
level equals social standing/rank in society" dependence. It`s a mistake
to assume that it`s completely replaced by "bloodline == social
standing/etc", as, there are many instances of scions (and regents)
without rank or standing. But Domain Power can be considered such a
measure. By, 2e BR rules you had to be classed to collect RP from
domains (Domain Power) but also had to have a bloodline for RP (and
hence must be both blooded and classed).

Now, the way Birthright was originally designed, the greater your
bloodline, the more powerful you were. This did not hinder your
advancement, but there are better rules for that in place now. If an
ECL changing template system is in place, then that can most fully be
considered a conversion of the system.

Well, maybe not ("greater your bloodline, the more powerful you were") -
at least not the way many people interpret the BR rules. It was
obviously intended (IMO) however.

Anyways, let us compare the Class vs. Template vs. Feat/Skill Methods

Class
Pro - Allows campaigns to begin at ECL 1
Pro - Limits Higher Blood Power levels to higher game-play levels
Con - Doesn`t accurately account for inborn abilities
But may account for inborn potential ! (c.f. High intelligence is a
potential to be a good wizard.)
Con - Doesn`t necessarily have an intuitive system for blood-theft
Bloodtheft from the victim`s point of view is rarely an issue - they are
usually dead from a strike through the heart (but not always .. aha, who
can think of exceptions?).
Bloodtheft from the perpetrators point of view has two ramifications:
(i) a change in derivation - this may cause a complete change in all
blood abilities; (ii) an upward increase in bloodline score - which may
affect the limits on abilities (c.f. an increase in intelligence or
wisdom affects a characters spell casting/learning - I can`t see this as
a problem provided class overrides bloodline score as to the
distribution of bloodline powers - which is the most intuitive way with
a Scion class.

There is however, at least one substantial `con`. The Scion class, in
order to be viable, should at `high` levels of and by itself create a
character with a set of `equivalent strength` to that of other classes.
This would mean that a high-level Scion would have significantly more
blood abilities than any currently documented scions. (small `s`
intended)

That such balance exists at all (in 2e or 3e) is (IMO) highly debatable,
especially between the spell-using and non-spell-using classes. That
high levels are necessary or desirable is also debatable.

Whether such a high-powered Scion is desirable or not - same arguments
as can be stated for previous paragraph - is a matter (IMO) of personal
taste.

Template
Pro - Can be introduced to standard D&D characters
Pro - Can semi-accurately recreate the 2E system balanced for 3E
Con - Doesn`t allow for highly blooded, low ECL characters

Feat/Skill (from other thread)
Pro - Doesn`t affect ECL
Con - Limited Portrayal of blood abilites
Con - Wastes skill points
Con - Can possibly be unbalancing

I feel compelled to defend the Feat/Skill argument here, not because I
agree with it - I don`t - but because your `con`s don`t really hold good
argumentative points.

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Peter Lubke

04-19-2003, 02:44 PM

On Fri, 2003-04-18 at 22:01, Michael Romes wrote:
Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel wrote:
>...
>Anyways, let us compare the Class vs. Template vs. Feat/Skill Methods
>
> Class
>Pro - Allows campaigns to begin at ECL 1
>Pro - Limits Higher Blood Power levels to higher game-play levels
>Con - Doesn`t accurately account for inborn abilities
>Con - Doesn`t necessarily have an intuitive system for blood-theft
>
How is in a class-based system the bloodline and powers transfered by
non-violent means?
e.g. if a regent designates his son as the heir of his bloodline, would
the son gain for example 3 levels of scion when the father dies and
suddenly become a Aristocrat 1/Scion 3?
Well, firstly,
(i) The son may or not take the Scion class, his role as
regent-in-waiting does not require him to do so;
(ii) The son (by standard BR rules) will have a bloodline, and
therefore could be a Scion class character - possibly even exceeding his
sire in level - anything that adds possibilities is, IMO, a good thing.
(iii) When the son, through investiture (whether or not the father
dies - it`s not a requirement by standard BR investiture) gains the
bloodline of his donor, he would gain the bloodline only NOT the class.
If in the case that he was already a Scion, his previous powers and
abilities are expunged (wiped out) and replaced by abilities/powers of
his new bloodline -- of course where you use similar powers in a
bloodline derived from genetic inheritance they may not change much (or
at all). Of course, this no no different from what happens under
standard 2e BR rules.

>Feat/Skill (from other thread)
>Pro - Doesn`t affect ECL
>Con - Limited Portrayal of blood abilites
>Con - Wastes skill points
>Con - Can possibly be unbalancing
>This is what I could think of off the top of my head, what did I miss?
>
If bloodline becomes an exclusive skill, then
bloodline=skillpoints=regency collected, not to be influenced by
spending skill points but only by spending regency/bloodtheft?

Can we distinguish between "Bloodline score/strength == feat/skill" and
"Bloodline power(s) == skill/feat(s)" ?

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Birthright-L

04-19-2003, 02:44 PM

> I dont agree with this. Scions are meant to be more powerful, this is what
> the whole idea of a blooded individual is. The Birthright setting was
> design with the purpose of letting players be kings/great rulers and the
> whole concept of bloodlines was to give them the power to do so.

I`m sure a lot of people won`t agree with it. However, I think you`ll
find more people want a "fair" method of introducing additional powers
into the game. Its the same way psionics were integrated. Remember way
back when they were just "added on"..if you rolled low enough (depending
on your wisdom, etc), you got psionic powers...which suddenly turned your
lowly PC into an UBER- CHARACTER who could disintigrate people by level 5.
It quickly got out of hand..

One of the goals of making everything even is to make a non-scion as
viable and fun a class as a non-scion. Remember, even the 2nd ed rules
had at least an attempt at balance, by giving non-scions bonus to
experience points. If all scions were much more powerful than non scions,
why play a onscion (other than for role playing purposes of course :) )

I disagree with our reasoning though. The Birthright campaign (in my
mind) was designed to allow you to play a ruler/king, and the bloodline
was the methond..however, bloodline ABILITIES in no way enhance or alter
your ability to rule..nor do they even require you to do so. (the Vos
barbarian example cited erlier comes to mind)

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Birthright-L

04-19-2003, 03:25 PM

> Anyways, let us compare the Class vs. Template vs. Feat/Skill Methods
>
> Class
> Pro - Allows campaigns to begin at ECL 1
> Pro - Limits Higher Blood Power levels to higher game-play levels
> Con - Doesn`t accurately account for inborn abilities
> But may account for inborn potential ! (c.f. High intelligence is a
> potential to be a good wizard.)

True...you wouldn`t start with your Bloodform ability...nor could you be
both a scion and a PC class at 1st level...however, compromises are going
to have to be made, no?

> Con - Doesn`t necessarily have an intuitive system for blood-theft
> Bloodtheft from the victim`s point of view is rarely an issue - they are
> usually dead from a strike through the heart (but not always .. aha, who
> can think of exceptions?).
> Bloodtheft from the perpetrators point of view has two ramifications:
> (i) a change in derivation - this may cause a complete change in all
> blood abilities; (ii) an upward increase in bloodline score - which may
> affect the limits on abilities (c.f. an increase in intelligence or
> wisdom affects a characters spell casting/learning - I can`t see this as
> a problem provided class overrides bloodline score as to the
> distribution of bloodline powers - which is the most intuitive way with
> a Scion class.

This was what I was trying to get across..in many, many more words :)

> That such balance exists at all (in 2e or 3e) is (IMO) highly debatable,
> especially between the spell-using and non-spell-using classes. That
> high levels are necessary or desirable is also debatable.

Also true...whether it exists or not is up for discussion..though I think
you could make the argument that the ATTMEPT to make things balanced was
there...it may not have been successful. HOwever, just because others
failed before us, does not mean we should follow in their footsteps...

> Template
> Pro - Can be introduced to standard D&D characters
> Pro - Can semi-accurately recreate the 2E system balanced for 3E
> Con - Doesn`t allow for highly blooded, low ECL characters

There also is the issue of progress in bloodline. From my understanding
of a template, a la MM...you either have the abilities or you
don`t...gaining and losing bloodline would have no effect (except for RPs)
until you got to zero. And then of corse there is the problem of what
happens if you lose the template because you lost your bloodline (a very
useful plot opportunity, I might add). When you lose all those extra
ECLs, does your character level automatically go up...you suddenly become
a better thief because you can`t detect lie anymore?

>
>
> Feat/Skill (from other thread)
> Pro - Doesn`t affect ECL
> Con - Limited Portrayal of blood abilites
> Con - Wastes skill points
> Con - Can possibly be unbalancing
>
> I feel compelled to defend the Feat/Skill argument here, not because I
> agree with it - I don`t - but because your `con`s don`t really hold good
> argumentative points.

"wastes skill points" is difficult to defend as a con, but as for
unbalancing, I pointed out some problems earlier. Various classes get
different numbers of feats and skill points. Should a rogue be better in
his or her bloodline because they have like 4x the number of skill points
the fighter does? Should the fighter have more opportunity to have both
class feats and bloodline feats than the priest does because he or she has
bonus feats due to class? These issues would have to be address somehow
to make a feat/skill point setup work

Dark

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ConjurerDragon

04-19-2003, 04:50 PM

David Sean Brown wrote:

>There also is the issue of progress in bloodline. From my understanding
>of a template, a la MM...you either have the abilities or you
>don`t...gaining and losing bloodline would have no effect (except for RPs)
>until you got to zero. And then of corse there is the problem of what
>happens if you lose the template because you lost your bloodline (a very
>useful plot opportunity, I might add). When you lose all those extra
>ECLs, does your character level automatically go up...you suddenly become
>a better thief because you can`t detect lie anymore?
>
Why do you think that the characterlevel goes up when you lose the ECL?
If a Fighter 7 is a werewolf then his characterlevel is 7 and his ECL is
10 as far as I understand it (CR3 for Werewolf).

If he is cured from this disease/template he will be a fighter 7.

If a Fighter 7 with a bloodline that gives him an ECL+1 loses that
bloodline, e.g. by being divested by an enemy or passing his bloodline
to his heir he still is a fighter 7, not a fighter 8.

>"wastes skill points" is difficult to defend as a con, but as for
>unbalancing, I pointed out some problems earlier. Various classes get
>different numbers of feats and skill points. Should a rogue be better in
>his or her bloodline because they have like 4x the number of skill points
>the fighter does? Should the fighter have more opportunity to have both
>class feats and bloodline feats than the priest does because he or she has
>bonus feats due to class? These issues would have to be address somehow
>to make a feat/skill point setup work
>Dark
>
A bloodline is something completely unrelated to classes, as ANY class
can be blooded - even someone without a class (in 2E) could be blooded.
So a bloodline should never be more able to be raised by some class or
the other just because that class has more skill points. Only regency,
heroic deeds for which RP are rewarded or bloodtheft should influence
bloodline.
bye
Michael Romes

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irdeggman

04-19-2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by Peter Lubke How is in a class-based system the bloodline and powers transfered by
non-violent means?
e.g. if a regent designates his son as the heir of his bloodline, would
the son gain for example 3 levels of scion when the father dies and
suddenly become a Aristocrat 1/Scion 3?
Well, firstly,
(i) The son may or not take the Scion class, his role as
regent-in-waiting does not require him to do so;
(ii) The son (by standard BR rules) will have a bloodline, and
therefore could be a Scion class character - possibly even exceeding his
sire in level - anything that adds possibilities is, IMO, a good thing.
(iii) When the son, through investiture (whether or not the father
dies - it`s not a requirement by standard BR investiture) gains the
bloodline of his donor, he would gain the bloodline only NOT the class.
If in the case that he was already a Scion, his previous powers and
abilities are expunged (wiped out) and replaced by abilities/powers of
his new bloodline -- of course where you use similar powers in a
bloodline derived from genetic inheritance they may not change much (or
at all). Of course, this no no different from what happens under
standard 2e BR rules.

Using the 5-level scion class, if a scion changes templates (used to express minor, major, great bloodlines) one of 2 things happens. If he increases his template then he is eleigble totake additional scion class levels which impart additional benefits - he wouldnot automatically gain access to major abilities if he didn't have the correct number of scion class levels. If he lost sufficient regency to lower his template then it would be like a level loss, he would lose the appropriate number of scion class levels (and associated benefits). Now from an experience point view point this seems harse, but from a game mechanic standpoint it make very good sense. Most people can handle level loss as a concept better than losing an ECL . I very much see the point in having a scion class with sufficient levels to address the ECLs associated with blood line strength (major, great, true) but not a totally separate 20-level standard class.:)

Peter Lubke

04-19-2003, 05:51 PM

On Sat, 2003-04-19 at 05:21, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Lord Rahvin wrote:

> I mean, putting any conversations about 2e and 3e and such aside, for
> the most part we`re used to a class-based system. Why should
> archetyping characters of a similiar concept and category into a
> standard advancement table really cause a stir?

The thing I don`t like about all the various scion class ideas we`ve seen
is not the stereotyping, but rather all the excess baggage that comes
along with class implementations in general. To me, bloodline score alone
should determine RP collection and blood abilities.
Hmmm, well that`s an opinion of course. If `character` class were to be
involved, it would naturally affect the blood abilities far more than
bloodline score - but class level need have no effect whatsoever on RP
collection (or, of course, bloodline score).

I don`t think there
should be any way to increase bloodline score other than spending RP or
committing bloodtheft.
Well, so I agree - what does that have to do with class? - Why should
the Scion class need have any effect on bloodline score?

Upon such an increase, I don`t think BAB, HD,
feats, skills, ability scores or XP advancement should change.
I, also, see no reason any of those things should improve due to an
increase in bloodline score. But this is no argument against class --
just a class based on bloodline score, rather than earned experience --
which would be completely different from the whole concept of character
class.

A bloodline model using classes necessarily contains all those extra things
that I don`t think should be directly related to the bloodline score.
Why should it contain all those things? - I know mine does not, maybe
you`re saying it should -- and then using that as an argument for why
classes are bad?

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Birthright-L

04-19-2003, 05:51 PM

> David Sean Brown wrote:
>
> >There also is the issue of progress in bloodline. From my understanding
> >of a template, a la MM...you either have the abilities or you
> >don`t...gaining and losing bloodline would have no effect (except for RPs)
> >until you got to zero. And then of corse there is the problem of what
> >happens if you lose the template because you lost your bloodline (a very
> >useful plot opportunity, I might add). When you lose all those extra
> >ECLs, does your character level automatically go up...you suddenly become
> >a better thief because you can`t detect lie anymore?
> >
> Why do you think that the characterlevel goes up when you lose the ECL?
> If a Fighter 7 is a werewolf then his characterlevel is 7 and his ECL is
> 10 as far as I understand it (CR3 for Werewolf).

Because if you are Character level 1 + 3 ECL, you are effectively a level
4 character. You can`t "level up" until you get enough exp for level
5...you then become a level 2 character. However, if you suddenly lose
all those ECL bonuses (because you lost your bloodline), you now have a
slew of extra exp that can only be made up by giving the difference in
character classes...or does he still have the ECL penalty (ie lower class
level) without the bonuses that come with it?

hope that made some semblance of sense :)

> A bloodline is something completely unrelated to classes, as ANY class
> can be blooded - even someone without a class (in 2E) could be blooded.
> So a bloodline should never be more able to be raised by some class or
> the other just because that class has more skill points. Only regency,
> heroic deeds for which RP are rewarded or bloodtheft should influence
> bloodline.

I agre...which is why I said it would be difficult to implement as a skill
based or feat based system. Some classes get more skill points and feats
than others, which would make those classes more desireable to get hte
bloodline bonuses..

Dark

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irdeggman

04-19-2003, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by Peter Lubke
I don`t think there
should be any way to increase bloodline score other than spending RP or
committing bloodtheft.
Well, so I agree - what does that have to do with class? - Why should
the Scion class need have any effect on bloodline score?

Upon such an increase, I don`t think BAB, HD,
feats, skills, ability scores or XP advancement should change.
I, also, see no reason any of those things should improve due to an
increase in bloodline score. But this is no argument against class --
just a class based on bloodline score, rather than earned experience --
which would be completely different from the whole concept of character
class.

A bloodline model using classes necessarily contains all those extra things
that I don`t think should be directly related to the bloodline score.
Why should it contain all those things? - I know mine does not, maybe
you`re saying it should -- and then using that as an argument for why
classes are bad?

Check the 5-level scion class I proposed. By gaining levels in the class you don't gain extra blood abilities, these are all based on the bloodline score. A bonus to the scion's bloodline score is granted at levels of the scion class, but this was to account for the template benefits from the playtest document. The 5-level scion class is not based on bloodline score (i.e., you don't gain levels based on your bloodline score). So in essence it is not an add-on, which is what I think your complaint is. To not have an add-on scion class that has levels gained (and lost) soley based on bloodline score.:)

ryancaveney

04-19-2003, 07:55 PM

On Sun, 20 Apr 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:

> Hmmm, well that`s an opinion of course. If `character` class were to be
> involved, it would naturally affect the blood abilities far more than
> bloodline score - but class level need have no effect whatsoever on RP
> collection (or, of course, bloodline score).

Oh! I was under the impression that the point of Scion classes was to
replace the 2e bloodline score mechanism. Apparently I was mistaken in
your case. My statement

> > Upon such an increase, I don`t think BAB, HD, feats, skills,
> > ability scores or XP advancement should change.

Is relevant to such an understanding.

> But this is no argument against class -- just a class based on
> bloodline score, rather than earned experience -- which would be
> completely different from the whole concept of character class.

So then, what is your class based on, since it has nothing to do
with bloodline score? Is its concept simply to represent people getting
better at using their inborn blood abilities through practice? If so, I
don`t think it`s really that good an idea. For one thing, it`s too
limited; for another, I don`t really think people can get better at using
their blood abilities except by increasing their bloodline score.

I said:

> > A bloodline model using classes necessarily contains all those
> > extra things that I don`t think should be directly related
> > to the bloodline score.

You replied:

> Why should it contain all those things? - I know mine does not, maybe
> you`re saying it should -- and then using that as an argument for why
> classes are bad?

A class necessarily contains those things, so "a bloodline model
using classes" does as well. By your own admission, your Scion class is
not a bloodline model, since bloodline score exists independently of it.

Ryan Caveney

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ryancaveney

04-19-2003, 08:15 PM

On Sat, 19 Apr 2003, irdeggman wrote:

> Check the 5-level scion class I proposed. By gaining levels in the
> class you don`t gain extra blood abilities, these are all based on
> the bloodline score.

Yeah, but your class requires that people use the template *also*, which I
think is serious overkill -- at least six whole levels` worth of XP just
to gain the opportunity to have a single great blood ability! That`s way
too high a barrier. Either use the template, or the class, but not both.

Ryan Caveney

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ConjurerDragon

04-19-2003, 10:07 PM

David Sean Brown wrote:
...

>>Why do you think that the characterlevel goes up when you lose the ECL?
>>If a Fighter 7 is a werewolf then his characterlevel is 7 and his ECL is
>>10 as far as I understand it (CR3 for Werewolf).
>>
>Because if you are Character level 1 + 3 ECL, you are effectively a level
>4 character. You can`t "level up" until you get enough exp for level
>5...you then become a level 2 character. However, if you suddenly lose
>all those ECL bonuses (because you lost your bloodline), you now have a
>slew of extra exp that can only be made up by giving the difference in
>character classes...or does he still have the ECL penalty (ie lower class
>level) without the bonuses that come with it?
>hope that made some semblance of sense :)
>
It did.
What is still unclear to me about ECL´s:
A character level 1 + 3 (so a great scion) has a characterlevel of still
1 for e.g. skill purposes.
For encounters he is counted as level 4, so he will face harder
challenges, or if he faces encounters normal for level 1 characters,
then he will earn less experience.

This resembles the 2E version of having unblooded characters earn 10%
more XP.
Isn´t that enough balance?

Why does in addition to this, he also needs more XP to advance to the
next level, when he already earns less XP? Isn´t that a double penalty?
bye
Michael Romes

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irdeggman

04-20-2003, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by ryancaveney

On Sat, 19 Apr 2003, irdeggman wrote:

> Check the 5-level scion class I proposed. By gaining levels in the
> class you don`t gain extra blood abilities, these are all based on
> the bloodline score.

Yeah, but your class requires that people use the template *also*, which I
think is serious overkill -- at least six whole levels` worth of XP just
to gain the opportunity to have a single great blood ability! That`s way
too high a barrier. Either use the template, or the class, but not both.

Ryan Caveney

That wasn't the intent. The templates were to be chosen at character creation so that the character and DM know what strength of blood the scion has. The scion class was to be the implementation of the templates in a phased concept (again ala Savage Species) to allow a 1st level ECL'd character. The scion class levels required to obtain a great ability would be 3 levels. It is a +2 ECL template, 1 + 2 gives three. This would replace the level modifiers from an ECL since they are actually class levels and would have the same effect as far as gaining experience and determining appropriate ELs.

If the player chose not to advance in scion class levels up to that number then his character would only receive limited benefits from being a scion. If no levels were taken, then he would only get minor blood abilities. If 1 level were taken he would get a one-time increase in his blood score (again this is to give something concrete for the character and almost always give him an appropriate level blood ability), bonus hit points depending on RP gained and any other benefit that applies to ECL's templates (e.g., family heirlooms, increased starting funds). The scion class levels give additional benefits as more levels are taken until the benefits set out in the templates are obtained. In the write up I was doing there would be 2 options for the DM. Either use ECL'd characters (which would mean that all characters start at the applicable ECL) or use the scion class to phase in the ECL starting at 1st level.

The scion class write up needs to be clearer as to how the templates interface with the scion class. It was supposed to set up a maximum and not be an addition. I toyed with the idea of referring to it as a label vice template (minor, major, great, etc.) but couldn't come up with a better word than template to use.

Birthright-L

04-20-2003, 01:06 AM

> Why does in addition to this, he also needs more XP to advance to the
> next level, when he already earns less XP? Isn´t that a double penalty?

What you said above is true..when it comes to dividing up exp, the PC in
question does count as a lvl 4 PC. H alone doesn`t get less exp..the
whole group does. And it really doesn`t cost him any different amount of
exp to level...he is "starting" as a lvl 4 character, and so has to get to
lvl 5. I know its a fine line (and a bit of somantics), however, it does
make sense. Its also a reason I think the class based system is a better
way to go.

On that topic, someone mentioned they didn`t feel it was necessary in
classed based method for the scion to improve his BAB, etc just to have
access to better bloodline abilities. However, I could point out that
this is exactly what happens to mages...who really just are trying to get
better and better spells, but get the concomitant improvement in their BAB
as well...as many bloodline abilities are spell like effects...

Dark

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Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel

04-20-2003, 01:13 AM

True, wastes skill points is not a good Con for a skill based system. However, the fact that those are the same points you spend on Jump and Spellcraft, which don't grant powers, is unbalanced. At least, that's how it appears to be explained.

The Savage Species concept appears, to me, to be similar to a way to play an underdeveloped monster at lower levels. Playing an underdeveloped demi-human wouldn't seem very fun, most of the time. I guess the monstrous class system from Savage Species could be used in this case, but those are mostly introduced for monsters with more than one hit die and an ECL modifier. I could not find a single one hit die character in the book. Bloodline score should not have an effect on skills, hit dice, BAB, and saves without being the bonus of a Blood Ability. A 1st level Great Scion with Great Blood Abilities should still be a 1 Hit die character. While I believe it could be feasible to breakdown the Scions like this in order to allow ECL 1 characters, I don't believe it is fair to the scions. In order to implement this, the Scion class should have no Save, BAB, Hit Die, or Skill progression. Savage Species does not allow a character to switch between monster progression and class progression, thus a character who wanted to start with blood abilities would have 0 base scores for those stats.

As far as experience and ECLs, the Savage Species book suggests that a character's ECL determines his minimum experience. For example, in chapter 11 it gives an example of a 5th level character with ECL +0 suddeny having +3 ECL. It implies that the character needs to make up the experience points needed to account for its extra levels, 26,000 in this case, in order to go up a level. However, the character may begin tougher challenges than before, so if she takes challenges of the same level she once had, then she will receive less experience for them. The character only receives less experience if she takes on encounters below her abilities. I do hear what you are saying regarding the more experience required and an experience penalty, but I think that it may balance itself out.

Regarding the loss of ECL, the only manner I'm aware of which can lower the ECL is for the character to die. If the character is revived, without the template, then the character should probably begin at the minimum experience of her new ECL. I believe that's how ressurection works anyways, but I could be wrong.

I don't believe that ECLs should be a deterrent. Generally, most players in a campaign will either all be Scions or Commoners. Though Scions may have different ECLs, most will be within the +/- 2 Effective Level range of the party average. If you have a single +5 ECL leader in a 1st level party of five characters, then the average level of the party is 2. As these characters advance, the leader will grow more slowly, because he needs more experience to rise in levels. By the time the rest of the party reaches 6th level, the leader will be 2nd or 3rd level, having even less of an effect on the party average.

If you use a class system, that same character would be required to spend his adventuring time developing abilities that are described to be inborn. In addition, I don't know if I like capping the blood abilities at +5 ECL. I believe an open progression should be adopted, similar to that of ability scores. A gorgon should have more blood abilities as well as more powerful blood abilities. I also have a hard time imagining the Spider spending a whole lot of time building up his blood abilities. Using a scaling template would allow this (Epic Blood Abilities?), because an algorithm that governed it would be very simple to design.

Ultimately, if you take an attitude that is perceived to be common among the nobility of Medieval Europe (well, the entire Aristocracy) you would think this: I shouldn't have to work to take advantage of the power I'm born with.

Peter Lubke

04-20-2003, 03:47 AM

On Sat, 2003-04-19 at 19:45, Azazel wrote:
This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472

Azazel wrote:
A blooded scion is a character who has divine essence coursing through
is body. The more essence he posseses (bloodline rating) and the more
chances he as of devlopping/possessing an ability of the old gods. It as
nothing wathsoever to do with class, level or ability scores.

Birthright-L wrote:

>Essentially, my thoughts are that whatever system is chosen, it needs to
>be able to be universally applied and be internally consistant...meaning
>(at least to me) that a blooded scion shouldn`t be more powerful than
>any other character of equivalent level.

I dont agree with this. Scions are meant to be more powerful, this is what
the whole idea of a blooded individual is. The Birthright setting was
design with the purpose of letting players be kings/great rulers and the
whole concept of bloodlines was to give them the power to do so.

Azazel
There are two points here:
(i) Equivalent level characters should be (by definition) equally
powerful. A first level Scion class character should be equivalent to a
1st level Warrior, or a 1st level Wizard. Similarly for a 10th level
Scion class character etc.
(ii) Powerful is a slippery concept as applied here. A regent is a
powerful person (c.f. character) due to the strength of his
organization. This is irrespective of his personal ability in any
character class. Domain power will always override personal power.
Having said that, we can accept that regents are as powerful as their
domains - and as domains can come and go, it`s not important to include
them in the calculation of effective character level -- although it is
paramount when determining encounter difficulty!

>From the point of view of personal power, a first level character has
few distinguishing class abilities. A Warrior has only a slender edge in
combat over a Rogue - just 5% better chance to hit and the ability to
wear armor giving say 20% better protection, an on average 2 more hit
points, and the ability to use weapons doing slightly more damage. A
first level Scion would need only a single minor blood ability equal to
the power of a single first level spell to come out at least even. A
first level Wizard may have several spells to choose from, but must make
that choice every day, while the Scion can call his power at will (or it
may even operate continuously).

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Peter Lubke

04-20-2003, 05:58 AM

On Sun, 2003-04-20 at 03:05, irdeggman wrote:
This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
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irdeggman wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Lubke How is in a class-based system the bloodline and powers transfered by
non-violent means?
e.g. if a regent designates his son as the heir of his bloodline, would
the son gain for example 3 levels of scion when the father dies and
suddenly become a Aristocrat 1/Scion 3?
Well, firstly,
(i) The son may or not take the Scion class, his role as
regent-in-waiting does not require him to do so;
(ii) The son (by standard BR rules) will have a bloodline, and
therefore could be a Scion class character - possibly even exceeding his
sire in level - anything that adds possibilities is, IMO, a good thing.
(iii) When the son, through investiture (whether or not the father
dies - it`s not a requirement by standard BR investiture) gains the
bloodline of his donor, he would gain the bloodline only NOT the class.
If in the case that he was already a Scion, his previous powers and
abilities are expunged (wiped out) and replaced by abilities/powers of
his new bloodline -- of course where you use similar powers in a
bloodline derived from genetic inheritance they may not change much (or
at all). Of course, this no no different from what happens under
standard 2e BR rules.

Using the 5-level scion class, if a scion changes templates (used to
express minor, major, great bloodlines) one of 2 things happens. If
he increases his template then he is eleigble totake additional scion
class levels which impart additional benefits - he wouldnot automatically
gain access to major abilities if he didn`t have the correct number of
scion class levels. If he lost sufficient regency to lower his template
then it would be like a level loss, he would lose the appropriate number
of scion class levels (and associated benefits). Now from an experience
point view point this seems harse, but from a game mechanic standpoint
it make very good sense. Most people can handle level loss as a concept
better than losing an ECL .

Template or class makes little difference if done well. I don`t rate the
5-level scion class as `done well` - it`s a good try, but could be much
better. A Scion class that primarily ignores bloodline score in
the determination of how many and what level of bloodline abilities a
Scion avoids this issue completely.

e.g. Scion level 4 has (say) one major ability, and three minor
abilities, while Scion level 7 has (say again, simply for arguments sake
- actual values may vary) 1 great ability, 2 major abilities, and 5
minor abilities.

A regent with a bloodline (Br 42 major) who is Scion level 4, may have a
child (whether heir or not) with a bloodline (Br 21 major) without even
the assistance of a blooded partner. The child may work up to Scion
level 7 gaining bloodline abilities beyond that of his parent - without
gaining any bloodline score.

Some discussion was had recently on the heritability of bloodline
abilities within family trees. Ignoring (for now, in order to present as
simple a case as possible first) the interaction of two blooded parents,
and accepting that such abilities (or the potential for such) are
heritable traits - if the child receives the full bloodline of the
parent due to investiture, he would keep all his learned/developed blood
abilities. If the child were a lower level of Scion than the donor, he
would gain none (also keeping what he has).

But, any heir (even non-blooded ones) can gain a bloodline through
investiture. So a Scion class character level 7 with a bloodline (An 24
minor), or an unblooded character with (obviously) no levels of Scion
could also inherit through investiture. In the latter case, the newly
blooded character will have to take levels in Scion class to gain blood
abilities. In the former case, the situation is more complex - but no
more so than it is in 2e under standard BR. The previous bloodline in
expunged as if it never existed - along with all blood abilities. Should
replacement blood abilities (from the newly gained bloodline) be
immediately available? I`d argue "yes", as the character has gained them
(or their equivalent) through his levels of Scion - in fact because of
the change from minor to major bloodline he may even end up with more
blood abilities than he had with his previous bloodline.

I very much see the point in having a scion
class with sufficient levels to address the ECLs associated with blood
line strength (major, great, true) but not a totally separate 20-level
standard class.:)

This is, IMO, the only real sticking point against Scion as class. But
it`s a question of style: Do you want to have Scions that are no more
powerful than scions under 2e BR - or can Scion develop into a
full-blown 20-level class of its own? - with high level Scions truly
powerful as characters (completely apart from any regent role they may
hold).

This is pretty much a re-hash of the classical debate around the time of
Psionics - should 1st level characters have lots of psionic powers or
should there be a Psionicist class?

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Peter Lubke

04-20-2003, 05:58 AM

On Sun, 2003-04-20 at 05:38, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:

> Hmmm, well that`s an opinion of course. If `character` class were to be
> involved, it would naturally affect the blood abilities far more than
> bloodline score - but class level need have no effect whatsoever on RP
> collection (or, of course, bloodline score).

Oh! I was under the impression that the point of Scion classes was to
replace the 2e bloodline score mechanism. Apparently I was mistaken in
your case. My statement

> > Upon such an increase, I don`t think BAB, HD, feats, skills,
> > ability scores or XP advancement should change.

Is relevant to such an understanding.

> But this is no argument against class -- just a class based on
> bloodline score, rather than earned experience -- which would be
> completely different from the whole concept of character class.

So then, what is your class based on, since it has nothing to do
with bloodline score? Is its concept simply to represent people getting
better at using their inborn blood abilities through practice? If so, I
don`t think it`s really that good an idea. For one thing, it`s too
limited; for another, I don`t really think people can get better at using
their blood abilities except by increasing their bloodline score.

Developing their raw inborn talent in order to control it. Just as - A
Wizard classed character has the potential to cast true magic, but
doesn`t start with the big spells. Just as intelligence is a factor in
deciding how many spells a Wizard can learn, and how easily they learn
them - the bloodline score would determine how many abilities of each
strength a Scion could potentially learn to control. Derivation is also
analogous to magic School.

I said:

> > A bloodline model using classes necessarily contains all those
> > extra things that I don`t think should be directly related
> > to the bloodline score.

You replied:

> Why should it contain all those things? - I know mine does not, maybe
> you`re saying it should -- and then using that as an argument for why
> classes are bad?

A class necessarily contains those things, so "a bloodline model
using classes" does as well. By your own admission, your Scion class is
not a bloodline model, since bloodline score exists independently of it.

Fair comment. Yes, I don`t think that bloodline score (cf bloodline
strength) is a necessary part of a Scion class. I`d leave it the way it
is - a primary factor in determining Regency for the domain aspect of
play. I would divorce it completely from blood abilities, which are of
primary use in adventuring play.

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ConjurerDragon

04-20-2003, 10:25 AM

Peter Lubke wrote:

>On Sat, 2003-04-19 at 19:45, Azazel wrote:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>
...

>There are two points here:
> (i) Equivalent level characters should be (by definition) equally
>powerful. A first level Scion class character should be equivalent to a
>1st level Warrior, or a 1st level Wizard. Similarly for a 10th level
>Scion class character etc.
>
Not to a 1st level Warrior, but to a 1st level fighter. NPC´s need not
to be balanced with PC´s as NPC´s are only tools of the DM and are able
to be whatever the DM needs them to be. So please only compare player
classes.

How can you compare a 1st level scion with a 1st level wizard, if to
become a wizard you need to be a blooded scion?

>>From the point of view of personal power, a first level character has
>few distinguishing class abilities. A Warrior has only a slender edge in
>combat over a Rogue - just 5% better chance to hit and the ability to
>wear armor giving say 20% better protection, an on average 2 more hit
>points, and the ability to use weapons doing slightly more damage. A
>first level Scion would need only a single minor blood ability equal to
>the power of a single first level spell to come out at least even. A
>first level Wizard may have several spells to choose from, but must make
>that choice every day, while the Scion can call his power at will (or it
>may even operate continuously).
>
So you say a Scion is a Sorceror and needs to have the same number of
blood abilitys as the Sorceror has spells per day? ;-)
bye
Michael Romes

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Birthright-L

04-20-2003, 01:36 PM

> Regarding the loss of ECL, the only manner I`m aware of which can lower the ECL is for the character to die. If the character is revived, without the template, then the character should probably begin at the minimum experience of her new ECL. I believe that`s how ressurection works anyways, but I could be wrong.

Unfortunately, no. You can still lose your bloodline through other
methods. Voluntary transferrece is one...
>
> I don`t believe that ECLs should be a deterrent. Generally, most players in a campaign will either all be Scions or Commoners. Though Scions may have different ECLs, most will be within the +/- 2 Effective Level range of the party average. If you have a single +5 ECL leader in a 1st level party of five characters, then the average level of the party is 2. As these characters advance, the leader will grow more slowly, because he needs more experience to rise in levels. By the time the rest of the party reaches 6th level, the leader will be 2nd or 3rd level, having even less of an effect on the party average.

If you go by the outline in the Savage Species boks, each ability the
Scion has would affect his or her ECL. So the more bloodline abilities you
have, the higher your ECL goes. This would cause an ever increasing gap
in the ECLs of the players. And according to your example, by the time
the party reached 6th level, the leader would be character level 2
(assuming everyone got the same amount of exp). Wouldn`t that be fun,
playing a character who had to wait that long before going up a level.
>
> If you use a class system, that same character would be required to spend his adventuring time developing abilities that are described to be inborn. In addition, I don`t know if I like capping the blood abilities at +5 ECL. I believe an open progression should be adopted, similar to that of ability scores. A gorgon should have more blood abilities as well as more powerful blood abilities. I also have a hard time imagining the Spider spending a whole lot of time building up his blood abilities. Using a scaling template would allow this (Epic Blood Abilities?), because an algorithm that governed it would be very simple to design.
Inborn abilities..yes..kind of like the way a sorcerer develops their
inborn abilities through adventuring. Just because something is inborn,
doesn`t mean you know how to use it to its maximal effect immediately.

>
> Ultimately, if you take an attitude that is perceived to be common among the nobility of Medieval Europe (well, the entire Aristocracy) you would think this: I shouldn`t have to work to take advantage of the power I`m born with.
>
Unfortunately, we`ve already launched into the discussion that having a
bloodline doesn`t automatically make you a noble. Consider the wandering
bard who has a tainted bloodline...the average peasant isn`t going to
treat him like a noble. How about the character who happens to be the
result of a "dallyance" of a noble with a peseant. Not likely to be
considered more than the peseasnt they are..

Dark

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Birthright-L

04-21-2003, 10:30 AM

From: "Kenneth Gauck" <kgauck@MCHSI.COM>

> What you
> might gain or lose are ECL penalties, which really only effect how you
score
> challenges in assigning experience. It only makes sense that more
powerful
> characters learn less from encounters in which they can fall back on
powers
> that make the encounter substantially easier. This is just an example of
> the proximal zone of learning.
>

Again, this is your personal interpretation of what acquiring an ECL
modifier during play would do. In my games, and I think I`m closer to canon
here, acquiring an ECL modifier would raise your effective character level,
meaning that you would not progress in level the next time you pass a
level-xp boundary, simpy because you have already gained that level in
advance through your ECL modifier. You are playing on burrowed power there
for a while.

This removes a lot of the difference between the template and class appoach.
In this case, an ECL modifier is basically the same as a character level
that lacks hit die, skill points, and BAB modifier.

/Carl

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Shade

04-21-2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by ecliptic
*shrug* I give up argueing, I could argue the points all day.

To go anyother way is to prevent new people from starting Birthright. I have played in 20 different groups at hobby shops who played Birthright. Every single one of them refused to let anyone have Bloodline and they basically said it doesn't exist in the system. The few people in this forum cover a very small minority. Why include something few people used and alot saw as unbalancing and a trouble maker to begin with?

This is a ridiculous statement. Bloodline was the entire reason my brother originally bought the campaign setting.

Every player I've played with thought blood abilities were really cool and made the game more fun. A power like animal affinity really gives a low-level character a lot more options, and allows the DM to make tougher adventures.

ConjurerDragon

04-21-2003, 05:26 PM

Shade wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>Shade wrote:
>
Originally posted by ecliptic
> *shrug* I give up argueing, I could argue the points all day.
>To go anyother way is to prevent new people from starting Birthright. I have played in 20 different groups at hobby shops who played Birthright. Every single one of them refused to let anyone have Bloodline and they basically said it doesn`t exist in the system. The few people in this forum cover a very small minority. Why include something few people used and alot saw as unbalancing and a trouble maker to begin with?
>
>This is a ridiculous statement. Bloodline was the entire reason my brother originally bought the campaign setting.
>Every player I`ve played with thought blood abilities were really cool and made the game more fun. A power like animal affinity really gives a low-level character a lot more options, and allows the DM to make tougher adventures.
>
I have to wholeheartedly agree here.
If there are people, who play Birthright, but never would like to have
characters who have a bloodline - then what is the point of playing
Birthright at all? Wasn´t the standard in Birthright assumed to be that
the players are blooded scions or even regents? And so the issue of
balancing scions and non-scions void, as NPC´s need not to be balanced
as they are only DM tools?

That would be like playing in Faerun without Elminster and saying that
magic does not exist at all ;-)

However the last sentence of the reply made me think: Why add an ECL to
a scion, if the DM raises the CR of the encounters according the the
powers of the scions party?

The design team could at least, if not as standard then as variant,
include the campaign in which all play regents (to each his throne!) or
all play scions. In this campaigns we do not need ECL´s because there is
no PC-non-scion who needs to be balanced against the other players who
have a bloodline and abilitys.
bye
Michael Romes

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Fizz

04-21-2003, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
I have to wholeheartedly agree here.
If there are people, who play Birthright, but never would like to have
characters who have a bloodline - then what is the point of playing
Birthright at all?

I would say there are more reasons to play Birthright than just bloodlines. BR has a rich history, lots of political intrigue, national conflicts, well-defined pantheon, etc etc. Bloodlines are an important part to many, but i would certainly play BR even if bloodlines weren't allowed. (That's assuming awnsheghlien still exist- much of the flavor is lost without them... :) ).

-Fizz

ryancaveney

04-21-2003, 08:21 PM

On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Lord Rahvin wrote:

> For myself, however, accomodating the flavor of Cerelia means
> completely rewriting the character generation rules. Basically, in
> this system, blooded characters are kind of the norm, and commoners
> are simply more heavily restricted; PCs should generally be blooded.

I lean towards this approach myself.

> In my opinion, the first thing you should do is generate your base
> bloodline score. This determines your capacity for blood abilities --
> you are not born with these powers.

For some of them, being born with them could be really problematic:
envision infants with the Travel or Wither Touch abilities, for example.
In such cases, I have no problem having their onset delayed somewhat.
Other blood abilities, however, such as Heightened Ability and Iron Will,
strike me as the sort of things which really ought to be inborn.

> a high bloodline score does not automatically make your character better,

I hope it still does automatically make your character a better *regent*.

> then you can adventure for Regency points which can later to spent (at
> an expensive price) to raise your bloodline score.

You award RP in adventures? Interesting. I think I might like it.

> The ability to advance in magic-using classes and the spell-types
> available within those classes will be based on bloodline. Arcane and
> divine and natural magic descriptors need only really apply to the
> "Lesser Magics". All of the "Greater Magics" need a bloodline

I very much agree. To me, in BR, blooded vs. unblooded should be a much
bigger difference between spellcasters than arcane vs. divine.

> and are restricted to particular derivations. Scions of Reynir will
> have an easier time casting Cure and Growth spells than Scions of
> Azrai or Anduiras.

Now this sounds really neat -- tell me more! Have you worked out a more
complete list yet, or is it still just a design goal?

> Regency can be used to provide +1d6 to any d20 roll. (At the domain
> level, Regents can use their Regency to provide +1 bonuses to domain
> actions, too, but generally the domain has its own Regency pool.)

Intriguing... do you have a more detailed writeup of this I could read?

Ryan Caveney

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ryancaveney

04-21-2003, 09:37 PM

On Sun, 20 Apr 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:

> Equivalent level characters should be (by definition) equally
> powerful. A first level Scion class character should be equivalent to
> a 1st level Warrior, or a 1st level Wizard. Similarly for a 10th level
> Scion class character etc.

Oh, in theory, yes. But PHB 10th level wizards blow away 10th level
fighters. Requiring that any new class be balanced with the old ones
always runs into the problem that the old ones are not balanced against
each other much at all.

Ryan Caveney

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Birthright-L

04-21-2003, 09:44 PM

From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>

> Oh, in theory, yes. But PHB 10th level wizards blow away 10th level
> fighters. Requiring that any new class be balanced with the old ones
> always runs into the problem that the old ones are not balanced against
> each other much at all.
>

Does not fit my experience at all. The wizard is stronger than the fighter
if the fighter is lacking magical items and support. But a well-balanced
party of fighters and mages always wins over a party of either fighters OR
mages. And in a fight between only fighters and only mages, I`m rooting for
the fighters.

The issue very much boils down to how many magic items there are.

* Almost no items: Clerics rule because they can emulate magic items

* Some items: Wizards rule because they have the most firepower

* Fair number of items: Rogues are slightly favored because they can use so
many wands

* Plentiful items: Fighters rule because they can make up for their lack of
spells with magic items

* Silly number of items: Monks rule because of the increased effect of
ability bonuses (Wis-Dex to AC and Flurry of Blows). Paladins come a close
second for the same reason.

Many people think Birthright games are on the lower end of the scale, which
strengthens spellcasters. The low magic of the world actually makes
magic-users more powerful.

/Carl

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ryancaveney

04-21-2003, 10:01 PM

On Sat, 19 Apr 2003, Michael Romes wrote:

> A character level 1 + 3 (so a great scion) has a characterlevel of
> still 1 for e.g. skill purposes. [snip] This resembles the 2E
> version of having unblooded characters earn 10% more XP. Isn`t that
> enough balance?

Remember that in 2e, a 10% bonus is almost completely meaningless. For
most of the 2e XP chart, each level requires twice as much XP as the one
before it; therefore, to maintain a three-level difference would require a
700% bonus! SEVENTY TIMES the difference in the 2e BR rulebook!

Three ECLs for almost any number of blood powers is ludicrously high.
That`s because to get them you must sacrifice 3 HD, 1 to 3 BAB, 1 to 3
points on each of the three kinds of saving throw, 1 to 3 feats (fighter),
3/4 of an ability increase, 6 to nearly 40 skill points (high-Int rogue)
and if you`re a spellcaster not only three levels of effect for each and
every spell and fewer spells per day of every level you can cast but also
two whole extra levels of spells you can`t even learn to cast! To make up
for all of those losses, you`d need to have every single blood ability in
the book at maximum power. No sane wizard in an ECL system will ever
choose to be more than tainted. At least a Scion class system would let
you hang on to those HD, skills, etc.

> Why does in addition to this, he also needs more XP to advance to the
> next level, when he already earns less XP? Isn`t that a double penalty?

Yes, it is a double penalty. And I think that`s the way the ECL rules
are written to work, which is another (smaller) reason I don`t like them.

Ryan Caveney

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ryancaveney

04-21-2003, 10:41 PM

On Sun, 20 Apr 2003, irdeggman wrote:

> The templates were to be chosen at character creation so that the
> character and DM know what strength of blood the scion has. The scion
> class was to be the implementation of the templates in a phased concept

Ah -- so then in your class-focused usage the "template" really represents
nothing more than the *intent* (stated at character creation) to
*eventually* acquire some number of levels of your scion class.

> The scion class write up needs to be clearer as to how the templates
> interface with the scion class.

Yes, please! You certainly confused me. Among other things, you seem
to have used the modifier "great" in at least three distinct ways!

Ryan Caveney

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geeman

04-22-2003, 12:20 AM

At 05:57 PM 4/21/2003 -0400, Ryan Caveney wrote:

>Three ECLs for almost any number of blood powers is ludicrously high.
>That`s because to get them you must sacrifice 3 HD, 1 to 3 BAB, 1 to 3
>points on each of the three kinds of saving throw, 1 to 3 feats (fighter),
>3/4 of an ability increase, 6 to nearly 40 skill points (high-Int rogue)
>and if you`re a spellcaster not only three levels of effect for each and
>every spell and fewer spells per day of every level you can cast but also
>two whole extra levels of spells you can`t even learn to cast!

Without putting too fine a point on it, I`ve found the tenth values of the
BP system to work out pretty well when rounded to whole numbers for ECL
purposes. It`s going to require more playtesting, but it seems to be more
accurate than I had expected when I wrote up those numbers, even though
those values are the product of a lot of number crunching. The tenth
values are, incidentally, based on some charts that I did up that dissected
character class features and assigned point values to them.

Of course, the powers one gets for BP are much more closely related to
actual class features and abilities, and they represent in many cases
something of a powering up from the standard blood ability descriptions, so
I suppose it`s not all that surprising that they should be more likely to
be "worth" taking an ECL than blood abilities based on the standard 2e
descriptions.

Gary

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ryancaveney

04-22-2003, 12:20 AM

I wrote:

> > So then, what is your class based on, since it has nothing to do with
> > bloodline score? Is its concept simply to represent people getting
> > better at using their inborn blood abilities through practice?

On Sun, 20 Apr 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:

> Developing their raw inborn talent in order to control it. Just as - A
> Wizard classed character has the potential to cast true magic, but
> doesn`t start with the big spells. Just as intelligence is a factor in
> deciding how many spells a Wizard can learn, and how easily they learn
> them - the bloodline score would determine how many abilities of each
> strength a Scion could potentially learn to control. Derivation is also
> analogous to magic School.

Hmmmmm. You may well have something here.

> I don`t think that bloodline score (cf bloodline strength) is a
> necessary part of a Scion class. I`d leave it the way it is - a primary
> factor in determining Regency for the domain aspect of play. I would
> divorce it completely from blood abilities, which are of primary use in
> adventuring play.

OK, so your "scion" class is really just "bloodpower-user". I might
eventually be persuaded to accept this, especially since it seems a
blooded person could be a perfectly fine realm regent without ever taking
a single level of it.

> A Scion class that primarily ignores bloodline score in the
> determination of how many and what level of bloodline abilities a Scion
> avoids this issue completely. e.g. Scion level 4 has (say) one major
> ability, and three minor abilities, while Scion level 7 has (say again,
> simply for arguments sake - actual values may vary) 1 great ability, 2
> major abilities, and 5 minor abilities.

Interesting. It certainly does a much better job of capturing the true
relative power level than the first draft conversion`s ill-advised policy
of assigning ECL and blood powers independently!

> A regent with a bloodline (Br 42 major) who is Scion level 4, may have a
> child (whether heir or not) with a bloodline (Br 21 major) without even
> the assistance of a blooded partner. The child may work up to Scion
> level 7 gaining bloodline abilities beyond that of his parent - without
> gaining any bloodline score.

Here we disagree. I could come to accept everything about your system
except this one thing: I believe bloodline score should act as an absolute
ceiling to the number of blood abilities (equivalently, level in your
scion class) which can be obtained.

> can Scion develop into a full-blown 20-level class of its own? - with
> high level Scions truly powerful as characters (completely apart from
> any regent role they may hold).

Not with blood powers as few and as limited as written in the BR
rulebook. You might be able to make a viable 20-level class if you wrote
up a whole bunch of additional blood abilities and allowed certain ones to
be used much more often with increasing scion level. However, I think
that would have to be based on assuming that level in the class was
completely independent of bloodline score, which I do not accept.

Ryan Caveney

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ryancaveney

04-22-2003, 12:20 AM

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Stephen Starfox wrote:

> * Almost no items: Clerics rule because they can emulate magic items
> * Some items: Wizards rule because they have the most firepower
> * Fair number of items: Rogues are slightly favored because they can
> use so many wands
> * Plentiful items: Fighters rule because they can make up for their
> lack of spells with magic items
> * Silly number of items: Monks rule because of the increased effect of
> ability bonuses (Wis-Dex to AC and Flurry of Blows). Paladins come a
> close second for the same reason.

OK, I grant you that. I was assuming magic items were few-to-none.
Personally, the recommended 3e item inventory values by character level
are much too high for my taste.

> The low magic of the world actually makes magic-users more powerful.

Absolutely yes! This point cannot be made too often. To make magic less
powerful, you must make it more plentiful. Making it less common makes it
even more powerful, because there is less other magic to resist or compete
with it.

Ryan Caveney

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Birthright-L

04-22-2003, 01:40 AM

> Oh, in theory, yes. But PHB 10th level wizards blow away 10th level
> fighters. Requiring that any new class be balanced with the old ones
> always runs into the problem that the old ones are not balanced against
> each other much at all.
>
This is not always the case of course. If a 10th level fighter managed to
surprise said wizard, I doubt the wizard would last very long. At range,
a fighter with bow specialization and the appropriate feats would also be
a match for the wizard.

Dark

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Lord Rahvin

04-22-2003, 03:22 AM

> You award RP in adventures? Interesting. I think I might like it.

If you notice my post, "The Scion of Vorynn", you would see that I`m using
Regency like the action points of d20Modern. At the adventure level, you
gain about 10 or so Regency points upon leveling up. Part of the
justification for this lies in the way I structure adventures around domain
actions, and in my cosmology of Cerelia all blooded characters are *meant*
for great things, and earn regency for adventures that effect/change the
world or mysticism of bloodlines; which is to say, all adventures.
Game mechanics: Both Regents and Domains have their own "pools" of Regency.
The domain earns Regency each domain action based on domain power and regent
bloodline. The Regent earns his own Regency "pool" based on his level and
the adventures that he goes on. A Regent may use a Regency point from his
pool at the domain level to get a +1 on any domain-level d20 roll, or at the
adventure level to get a +1d6 (or more) on any domain-level d20 roll such as
attack rolls, skill checks, or saving throws. Some special abilities also
require Regency points to use (this is usually stuff that was formerly
handled with some kind of x/day mechanic). Only one Regency point may be
used per round at the adventure level for any purpose.

I think that if you accumulate enough of these Regency points without using
them, you should be able to spend a bunch of them to raise your bloodline.
Thus, the act of bloodtheft, could have no other effect than just to grant
you a bunch of Regency points. Since you can only use one per round, it`s
still a significant advantage, but not overly-unbalancing. Or you could use
them to raise your bloodline score, possibly granting you a new blood
ability (at Rank 0) if you raise it high enough.

> I very much agree. To me, in BR, blooded vs. unblooded should be a much
> bigger difference between spellcasters than arcane vs. divine.
>
>> and are restricted to particular derivations. Scions of Reynir will
>> have an easier time casting Cure and Growth spells than Scions of
>> Azrai or Anduiras.
>
> Now this sounds really neat -- tell me more! Have you worked out a more
> complete list yet, or is it still just a design goal?

Ummm... sure, sort of.
I have some stuff I`m using from other people`s work. I`ll post it in a
different thread for you, since it doesn`t have much to do with converting
bloodlines. It`s kind of hard to write whole spell lists. It`ll be up
sometime this week.

>> Regency can be used to provide +1d6 to any d20 roll. (At the domain
>> level, Regents can use their Regency to provide +1 bonuses to domain
>> actions, too, but generally the domain has its own Regency pool.)
>
> Intriguing... do you have a more detailed writeup of this I could read?

Ummm... no, except above.
I`m adapting this from d20Modern, Classically Modern, Spycraft, and my own
house rules. These products form a much better "core system" than D&D does,
and my Birthright game runs much better with these rules, classes, etc.
instead of D&D. The Scion of Vorynn class, although I no longer want to go
with classes, still is a good example of how I`m writing up all my classes
for Birthright. I`ve stopped using the PHB and DMG altogether. You notice
that it gets Regency points every time it levels up, and you`ll also notice
that its special abilities are customizable and that one of those abilities
must be taken to open up levels of the "True Mage" advanced class. (I`ll be
posting "True Mage" soon which is a combination of concepts from Classically
Modern and the 2e book, Spells & Magic.)

Anyway, to answer your question, no I don`t have a writeup. The "action
points" are exactly as used in my core rulebook (d20Modern), except I`m only
allowing them to blooded characters, and they can also be used as a +1 to
domain level checks (at which point the 1pt/round limitation is waived). If
you have any specific questions, I`ll be happy to answer them.

-Lord Rahvin

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ConjurerDragon

04-22-2003, 06:21 AM

Fizz wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472
>Fizz wrote:
>
Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
>I have to wholeheartedly agree here.
>If there are people, who play Birthright, but never would like to have
>characters who have a bloodline - then what is the point of playing
>Birthright at all?
>I would say there are more reasons to play Birthright than just bloodlines. BR has a rich history, lots of political intrigue, national conflicts, well-defined pantheon, etc etc. Bloodlines are an important part to many, but i would certainly play BR even if bloodlines weren`t allowed. (That`s assuming awnsheghlien still exist- much of the flavor is lost without them... :) ).
>-Fizz
>
Awnsheglien=Blood of Darkness=Scions of Azrai
So no, if no bloodlines then no Awnsheglien and a totally altered setting.
bye
Michael Romes

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ConjurerDragon

04-22-2003, 06:21 AM

Lord Rahvin wrote:

>> You award RP in adventures? Interesting. I think I might like it.
>
> If you notice my post, "The Scion of Vorynn", you would see that I`m
> using
> Regency like the action points of d20Modern. At the adventure level, you
> gain about 10 or so Regency points upon leveling up. Part of the
> justification for this lies in the way I structure adventures around
> domain
> actions, and in my cosmology of Cerelia all blooded characters are
> *meant*
> for great things, and earn regency for adventures that effect/change the
> world or mysticism of bloodlines; which is to say, all adventures.

Which is nothing new. The Book of Regency had a "King Errant" regent
kit who did just that, earn additional RP (in addition to the normal
collection) through adventuring (caring for domain actions himself).
bye
Michael Romes

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Peter Lubke

04-22-2003, 06:38 AM

On Tue, 2003-04-22 at 05:40, Fizz wrote:
This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at:

http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1472

Fizz wrote:

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
I have to wholeheartedly agree here.
If there are people, who play Birthright, but never would like to have
characters who have a bloodline - then what is the point of playing
Birthright at all?

I would say there are more reasons to play Birthright than just bloodlines.
BR has a rich history, lots of political intrigue, national conflicts,
well-defined pantheon, etc etc. Bloodlines are an important part to many,
but i would certainly play BR even if bloodlines weren`t allowed.
(That`s assuming awnsheghlien still exist- much of the flavor is lost
without them... :) ).

-Fizz

I`m with Fizz too. And, as a further point, blood ABILITIES are not
essential to bloodlines though in any case. The concept of low-level
characters in charge of domains divorces the old concept of character
level == rank in society/organization. In fact, you can go further and
state that regents need not even be 1st level characters if you divorce
RP collection from character class.

Blood abilities may be cool and sexy, but they are way way way
unbalanced for a startup character - unless you start your characters
with 10+ levels, or use some form of gradual development.

On the other hand a bloodline can be cool too, with or without a domain
-- yet domains do not unbalance a character, even a startup character.
Domains, whether controlled by the players or controlled entirely by the
DM, enrich the game world enormously. Games that are domain-based alone,
(e.g. most PBEMs) do not need blood abilities at all. (I think from
memory that only Courage and Battlewise have any significant effect at
the domain level of play)

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Peter Lubke

04-22-2003, 08:32 AM

On Tue, 2003-04-22 at 06:55, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:

> Equivalent level characters should be (by definition) equally
> powerful. A first level Scion class character should be equivalent to
> a 1st level Warrior, or a 1st level Wizard. Similarly for a 10th level
> Scion class character etc.

Oh, in theory, yes. But PHB 10th level wizards blow away 10th level
fighters. Requiring that any new class be balanced with the old ones
always runs into the problem that the old ones are not balanced against
each other much at all.

Ryan Caveney

Yes. I do agree. But the problem goes back a long time to when the
original level limits were lifted. The imbalance occurred when the
original Greyhawk play-testing group reached the limits - no-one wanted
to retire their character (as the original rules suggested), so there
was two outcomes (i) extended spells for the spell-casters, and (ii)
dual-class characters - although the paladin to assassin transition
would tend to be a little weird even with todays munchkins (the Robilar
character). From a personal campaign point of view though, you can
always restore the limits (either by edict or just by running out of
ways to garner the necessary experience). For a BR role-playing campaign
this will reflect the flavor of a low-magic/low-power world.

Still, in theory, they are "supposed" to be equal - so trying to achieve
that as much as possible can`t hurt. Still, I`d argue that 10th level
characters are still pretty close in their relative merits -- although
by 13+ they are absurdly unbalanced.

A 10th level Wizard only has (at best) two 5th level spells. Now without
knowing which ones the wizard might have a Warrior (even a high level
character) should be somewhat cautious. One on one encounters rarely
show the relative strengths of the classes - a Wizard tends to be better
in one-to-many situations at high levels, and to be generally more
effective at range than in contact. Up close and personal in a
one-on-one situation, the Warrior will most probably prevail - any
Wizard worth his crescents and stars should avoid or flee this situation
in almost all cases.

(Just for Ryan - and all you history and war-gaming nuts out there)

>From a war-gaming point of view (closer to your heart perhaps?), under
the lamentably lost original D&D mass combat rules: Both the Wizard and
the Warrior are represented by a single figure (at 1:1 scale), and could
engage a unit (of say 10 figures - each representing 10 goblins at 1:10
scale -- the famous D&D mixed scale, this is odds of 100:1).

The Wizard has his ranged attacks (spells), and a fireball cast into the
ranks of the goblins (affecting say 8 figures) can potentially do 165
points damage (5 x 3.5 x 10), which depending on saving throws will do
11 or 21 points to each figure (worth 25 each). Two fireballs (the
maximum range is 24", while the best goblin movement even with charge
bonus is 10"), should take 20-40% casualties and break the morale of the
goblins completely(0-20% chance depending on casualties).

(Let`s mount our 10th level warrior on a medium warhorse) The warrior
charging into the goblins will do base damage of 41 versus AC6, plus 20%
for charge - 49 points, and his horse contributes 8 more for a full
total of 57 -- check off two figures worth 25 each and mark 7 points on
another figure before any reply (22 goblins, this guy has balls of
steel!!). Again, it`s hard to see the goblins making their morale at
this point (just less than 20% chance). Their reply attack is against
AC4 for 40 points if the do make it though - although this won`t kill
the Warrior (he has 65 between him and his mount).

Note: The same fireball above cast at an individual figure (such as the
Warrior) has a base damage of 35 (straight 10 x 3.5) - save for 1/2
damage. But the trusty steed (speed in column of 18" plus 7" charge
bonus) will close that 24" gap in one turn, and the Wizard better not be
there when that happens.

(There`s no variable damage system - the only dice rolled are saving
throws and morale, the wizard used spells instead of wands as wand have
only 6 dice of damage compared to the 10 dice for the spell, the warrior
was in chain mail and shield with a lance and broadsword - no magic
items - a +1 weapon would beef the damage up by 10 points, a +3 by 30
points! ouch!!)

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Peter Lubke

04-22-2003, 08:32 AM

On Tue, 2003-04-22 at 08:46, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
I wrote:

> A regent with a bloodline (Br 42 major) who is Scion level 4, may have a
> child (whether heir or not) with a bloodline (Br 21 major) without even
> the assistance of a blooded partner. The child may work up to Scion
> level 7 gaining bloodline abilities beyond that of his parent - without
> gaining any bloodline score.

Here we disagree. I could come to accept everything about your system
except this one thing: I believe bloodline score should act as an absolute
ceiling to the number of blood abilities (equivalently, level in your
scion class) which can be obtained.

Well it does to an extent, the potential of the parent with higher
bloodline is greater - in this example he has not reached his maximum
potential which is greater than that of the child with the lower
bloodline. When comparing two characters with the same level of Scion
(at higher levels) and with different bloodline scores, the character
with the higher bloodline will have more abilities (actually, more
higher abilities). This is comparable to a Wizard at high level with a
low intelligence score versus a Wizard at the same level with a high
intelligence score.

> can Scion develop into a full-blown 20-level class of its own? - with
> high level Scions truly powerful as characters (completely apart from
> any regent role they may hold).

Not with blood powers as few and as limited as written in the BR
rulebook. You might be able to make a viable 20-level class if you wrote
up a whole bunch of additional blood abilities and allowed certain ones to
be used much more often with increasing scion level. However, I think
that would have to be based on assuming that level in the class was
completely independent of bloodline score, which I do not accept.

I agree. To reach 20 levels would require some more Blood Abilities and
some finer control of the individual abilities in some cases. But 10
levels is pretty do-able as is. In some derivations, even 15 levels -
although all high-level Scions would tend to have the same abilities.

Ryan Caveney

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irdeggman

04-22-2003, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Birthright-L

The issue very much boils down to how many magic items there are.

* Almost no items: Clerics rule because they can emulate magic items

* Some items: Wizards rule because they have the most firepower

* Fair number of items: Rogues are slightly favored because they can use so
many wands

* Plentiful items: Fighters rule because they can make up for their lack of
spells with magic items

* Silly number of items: Monks rule because of the increased effect of
ability bonuses (Wis-Dex to AC and Flurry of Blows). Paladins come a close
second for the same reason.

Many people think Birthright games are on the lower end of the scale, which
strengthens spellcasters. The low magic of the world actually makes
magic-users more powerful.

/Carl

Actually in 3rd ed mechanics in order to use a wand the spell must be on your spell list and you must know the activation mechanism (an identify spell will supply the later). The other option (used by rogues and bards) is the use magic device skill which requires a skill check (very high DCs) to "simulate" a class, race, etc. in order to successfully use the device. So Rogues don't really get that big an advantage just the possiblility to use a wand. But the point is overal still valid.

Birthright-L

04-22-2003, 10:25 AM

I have slowly cometo subscribe to the scion as a class idea. This is my take
on this class:

The scionis a class thatgains abilities in a way similar to the sorcerer.
Unlike a sorcerer`s spells,the abilities of the scion operate more or less
continously or have an unlimited number of uses.

These abilities are tied to an attribute. This can either be Charisma or a
new attribute, Bloodline. In either case, it takes advancing levels of
Bloodline or Charisma to learn more advanced abilities. The equivalent of
minor abilities require a score around 12, major abilities a score around
14, and great abilitiers a score around 18, similar to the attribute
limitations of spells.

If the Bloodline ability is used, I suggest that it be tied to maximum
regency collection. For each point of Bloodline score over 10, you can
collect a maximum of 5 RP per domain turn. This creates a translation
between the old and new attribute scores of (New score -10) *5 = Old score.
A character with a Bloodline score below 10 is considered unblooded, and
cannot use this attribute for anything. This way, it costs a few attribute
points to be a blooded character. Regency collection is the only effect of
the Bloodline ability unless you gain levels as a scion.

All characters can advance as far as they like in the Scion class, but their
choice of abilities is limited by their attribute score, so it is fairly
pointless for low-blood characters. Powers are purchased with points (gain a
number of power points equal tothe level you just acheived, with costs as
follows: Minor 1, Major 2, great 4 or somesuch. A 5th level scion would have
{1+2+3+4+5 = 15} points to spend), so a character can chose to aquire a
large number of minor powers or a few great powers, as limited by ability
score. Power selection is further limited by bloodline derivation.

The scion class is roughly equivalent to a cleric in general power level
(besides the blood abilities). This is a prestige class with Bloodine as a
prerequisite, so it has no effect on multiclassing.

Bloodtheft affects your bloodline score and thus lets you acquire more
powerful abilities, buthas no effect on your level as a scion. Corruption
gives you more powers more cheaply - but those powers manifest in the form
of physical mutations and give you penalties on the Diplomacy skill and on
many domain actions.

/Starfox

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ryancaveney

04-22-2003, 03:19 PM

On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:

> the potential of the parent with higher bloodline is greater - in this
> example he has not reached his maximum potential which is greater than
> that of the child with the lower bloodline. When comparing two
> characters with the same level of Scion (at higher levels) and with
> different bloodline scores, the character with the higher bloodline
> will have more abilities (actually, more higher abilities).

Ah, OK then -- that sounds fine. I misinterpreted your example.

Ryan Caveney

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Peter Lubke

04-22-2003, 04:21 PM

On Tue, 2003-04-22 at 06:18, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Lord Rahvin wrote:

> a high bloodline score does not automatically make your character better,

I hope it still does automatically make your character a better *regent*.

How so?
Mourde Alondir (Aerenwe guilder) has a bloodline score of 17 - would she
be a better regent with a bloodline score of 57? Would she collect more
regency?

Does better mean more effective?

(I still maintain that the rule for collection of RP contains a typo:
`minimum` is erroneously substituted for `maximum`.)

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Birthright-L

04-23-2003, 12:06 AM

From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>

> I am not a fan of bloodline as an ability score, but I will say that this
> particular translation between traditional and 3-18 scales is very much
> better than the doubling proposed in the team draft. Referring back to
> the bloodline score generation table in the original rules, it would mean
> the "Bld" score ranges would be tainted 11-13, minor 11-16, major 12-18
> and great 12-23; this is IMO distinctly superior to the draft which gives
> Darien Avan a 35 (as opposed to here a 24) and makes tainted bloodlines
> impossible (since twice Bld 8 gives 16 RP per DT max).
>
> > A 5th level scion would have {1+2+3+4+5 = 15} points to spend), so a
> > character can chose to aquire a large number of minor powers or a few
> > great powers, as limited by ability score.
>

Thanks. I feel it is important that there should be a cost of even a tainted
bloodline. Even if you roll dice for ability scores, this methoid works.
Simply roll seven attributes instead of six, and if you place an attribute
of 10 or lower in bloodline, you are unblooded. Obvsiously, this will give
you better stats in your other attributes (unless you were incredibly lucky
and rolled 11+ for all your attributes).

> I`ve liked your point-purchase method elsewhere, and I like it here as
> well. That kind of player choice is an important kind of design freedom
> to allow. One resulting question is whether characters can "unspend"
> points: if a Scion 2 has chosen 3 minor abilities, can he trade one of
> them in upon gaining a third scion level in order to free up a fourth
> point to grab a great ability? I would prefer to say no, but also would
> prefer not to force people to leave points lying around unspent while
> saving up for a bigger power later. Therefore, I think this idea means
> that powers which are by default only of major or great level ought to
> have minor powers associated with them, so that abilities can gradually be
> grown in strength.
>

I think a fully developed class along these lines would have to have more
fully developed bloodline powers with an escalation of 0 to 9 or perhaps
even higher (much like spell levels). That way, powers could grow over time,
just as you say. But this requires quite a lot of work and effort to
perfect.

> > Corruption gives you more powers more cheaply - but those powers
> > manifest in the form of physical mutations and give you penalties on
> > the Diplomacy skill and on many domain actions.
>
> Very reasonable, and a nicely unified treatment of awnsheghlien.
> Which domain actions do you have in mind?
>

Let me quote myself from
http://my.homeip.net/abbe/birthright/blood.../bloodform.html (http://my.homeip.net/abbe/birthright/bloodlines/bloodform.html). These rules
are for use IMC and are not developed to the point where they can be used
without DM intervention, but they show what kind of abilities I`m thinking
off.

Bloodform

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

The divine blood is twisting you. You begin to turn into a monster. With
this gift comes great power, but you start to look like a monster. This
power has great versatility, and can be picked multiple times for multiple
powers.

Blood form abilities are obviously apparent. Anyone can automatically spot
them at 30 ft. Their exact manifestation varies with the gift bestowed, the
character that receives it and the bloodline that gives it. Characters with
several bloodform abilities find that they grow more unusual, and that they
generally go with a theme, turning the character into a creature of
nightmare, but shaped by some twisted logic.

Bloodform abilities are more powerful than regular blood abilities, and much
more flexible. A Bloodform ability is generally equivalent to a normal blood
ability of one level higher. Thus, you could take major battlewise as a
minor bloodform ability, but you would then reflect this in your appearance;
you would probably grow very tall, have a voice like a typhoon, or manifest
other physical traits appropriate to your bloodline.

Only the children of monsters develop bloodform abilities as they grow up;
normal humans, demihumans or humanoids do not. But anyone can gain bloodform
abilities when they increase their blood rank, especially if they do so
through blood theft, and normal abilities can later develop into bloodform
abilities.

This ability is not really recommended for players; it makes normal social
life hard, and makes the character an outcast from civilized society.

Minor; All
You acquire some monstrous physical traits, and powers corresponding to
them. Examples include claws or teeth (for 1d8 damage), plated skin (+4
natural armor), monstrous red eyes (dark vision 90`) or a poison stinger.

Major; All
Major changes bring major powers; additional limbs, major natural weapons
(2d6 damage), a minor breath weapon or limited spell-like powers, grow to
large size, wings (flight 120), armor plates (+8 natural armor), minor
discorporate form (damage resistance 10/+2) or netherworld aura (paralysis
or level drain) are examples of abilities gained at this power level.

You can opt to change your creature type, thus improving your hit dice and
other traits as per the Monster Manual. If you do this, can then acquire a
monster form, including HD and natural attacks, for a further 2 bloodline
points per HD.

Great; All
The very most powerful abilities, such as the stone elemental form of the
Gorgon (+12 natural armor), regeneration, devastating natural attacks (3d6
damage), huge growth and so on. Almost any monster ability can manifest
through a major bloodform power.

One example is the Touch of Decay; you can use this spell-like power like a
Disintegrate spell once week per level, but with a range of touch.

Side Effects
Gaining bloodform abilities also has the side effect of tarnishing your
reputation and making you more savage. As a result, the following modifiers
apply for every 5 points of bloodline rating invested in Bloodform
abilities.

a.. -1 penalty on all Agitate, Diplomacy, Finances and Rule actions, even
if performed by lieutenants
b.. -1 penalty on the Diplomacy skill
c.. +1 bonus on the Intimidation skill

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ryancaveney

04-23-2003, 12:06 AM

On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Stephen Starfox wrote:

> If the Bloodline ability is used, I suggest that it be tied to maximum
> regency collection. For each point of Bloodline score over 10, you can
> collect a maximum of 5 RP per domain turn. This creates a translation
> between the old and new attribute scores of (New score -10) *5 = Old score.

I am not a fan of bloodline as an ability score, but I will say that this
particular translation between traditional and 3-18 scales is very much
better than the doubling proposed in the team draft. Referring back to
the bloodline score generation table in the original rules, it would mean
the "Bld" score ranges would be tainted 11-13, minor 11-16, major 12-18
and great 12-23; this is IMO distinctly superior to the draft which gives
Darien Avan a 35 (as opposed to here a 24) and makes tainted bloodlines
impossible (since twice Bld 8 gives 16 RP per DT max).

> A 5th level scion would have {1+2+3+4+5 = 15} points to spend), so a
> character can chose to aquire a large number of minor powers or a few
> great powers, as limited by ability score.

I`ve liked your point-purchase method elsewhere, and I like it here as
well. That kind of player choice is an important kind of design freedom
to allow. One resulting question is whether characters can "unspend"
points: if a Scion 2 has chosen 3 minor abilities, can he trade one of
them in upon gaining a third scion level in order to free up a fourth
point to grab a great ability? I would prefer to say no, but also would
prefer not to force people to leave points lying around unspent while
saving up for a bigger power later. Therefore, I think this idea means
that powers which are by default only of major or great level ought to
have minor powers associated with them, so that abilities can gradually be
grown in strength.

> The scion class [...] is a prestige class with Bloodine as a
> prerequisite, so it has no effect on multiclassing.

Yes, this I think is the best way to interpret scion as a class.

> Corruption gives you more powers more cheaply - but those powers
> manifest in the form of physical mutations and give you penalties on
> the Diplomacy skill and on many domain actions.

Very reasonable, and a nicely unified treatment of awnsheghlien.
Which domain actions do you have in mind?

Ryan Caveney

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ryancaveney

04-23-2003, 10:45 PM

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, Lord Rahvin wrote:

> in my cosmology of Cerelia all blooded characters are *meant* for
> great things, and earn regency for adventures that effect/change the
> world or mysticism of bloodlines; which is to say, all adventures.

This is quite a good answer to the eternal question of "why are the PCs
special?"

> Game mechanics: Both Regents and Domains have their own "pools" of
> Regency. The domain earns Regency each domain action based on domain
> power and regent bloodline. The Regent earns his own Regency "pool"
> based on his level and the adventures that he goes on.

OK, I can see that.

> A Regent may use a Regency point from his pool at the domain level to
> get a +1 on any domain-level d20 roll, or at the adventure level to
> get a +1d6 (or more) on any domain-level d20 roll such as attack
> rolls, skill checks, or saving throws.

I think this is really a very tame change. Given the power of and the
demands on the RP at the domain level, I don`t think it`s a balance
problem at all, especially if you encourage players to be blooded.

> Some special abilities also require Regency points to use (this is
> usually stuff that was formerly handled with some kind of x/day
> mechanic).

This makes lots of sense to me.

> Only one Regency point may be used per round at the adventure level
> for any purpose.

Good choice.

> I think that if you accumulate enough of these Regency points without
> using them, you should be able to spend a bunch of them to raise your
> bloodline.

Given that they`re pretty much the same as the domain RP at the domain
level, that seems perfectly reasonable. It`s a very sensible mechanic for
the idea that succeeding at amazing adventures makes you the stuff of
legends and helps identify you as clearly destined to rule.

> Thus, the act of bloodtheft, could have no other effect than just to
> grant you a bunch of Regency points.

I like this, too. Most of my thoughts for altering bloodtheft have
involved the spend-RP-to-raise-bloodline mechanism somehow.

> I have some stuff I`m using from other people`s work. I`ll post it in
> a different thread for you, since it doesn`t have much to do with
> converting bloodlines.

Thanks!

> It`s kind of hard to write whole spell lists.

Oh yes, I know. Mostly I was hoping it was something you`d already done,
but I certainly won`t object to you doing it now if you`re willing. =)

> I`m adapting this from d20Modern, Classically Modern, Spycraft, and my
> own house rules. These products form a much better "core system" than
> D&D does, and my Birthright game runs much better with these rules,
> classes, etc. instead of D&D.

I think by now you`ve pretty much convinced me that I need to go out and
buy D20 Modern. *sigh* =) What are Classically Modern and Spycraft?

> its special abilities are customizable

I think this is a really good idea.

> If you have any specific questions, I`ll be happy to answer them.

Many thanks for what you`ve done already!

Ryan Caveney

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