How Big Was the Bang at Deismaar?

[geeman]

If one were to map out a sort of topography of the explosion at Deismaar
with the "shockwave" of divine energies that infused the attendant mortals
with bloodlines depicted as rings how big might those rings be?

There are five categories of bloodline strength; tainted, minor, major,
great and true. Strength was originally linked to a character`s proximity
to "ground zero" of the explosion. (One might also speculate that
bloodline score of those originally infused was directly related to
proximity, only becoming variable due to events following the battle.) In
addition, there is a small group of individuals who ascended to godhood due
to their exposure to the energies of that explosion, so we can hypothesize
five "rings" surrounding an "inner circle" that represents the explosion`s
"ground zero" for the purposes of such a topographical map.

One radius of the circle might look like this:

A| B | C | D | E | F | --->

Where:
A=characters who ascended
B=true
C=great
D=major
E=minor
F=tainted

Optionally, those characters who got a true bloodline could also be at
"ground zero" along with the mortals who ascended (that`s my reading, at
least) but did not ascend for reasons beyond their (or our) ken--much to
the chagrin of at least one of them.... For the purpose of speculation we
can just put the inner circle in along with the first ring if we want to go
with that.

Of course, the rings needn`t be perfect circles. We don`t know how (or if)
the explosion was affected by the actual topography, weather, etc. For the
purpose of the basic idea here it doesn`t really make a difference,
though. "Average" width will do.

The question: how wide is inner circle A and each ring B-F?

Related questions: How many people survived the explosion? How many
occupants might each ring have had? That`s before any subsequent orgy of
bloodtheft, of course.

Gary

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[Birthright-L]

I don`t beleive in the Ground Zero concept at all. I beleive that the amout
of bloodline strength absorbed depends more on your spiritual affinity to
the various dieties that dies. Why else would the greatest generals aquire
the greatest bloodlines? If it was merely physical distance that dictated
things, the gods would not be the former generals but former footsoldiers -
who, by sheer weight of numbers, is likely to be closest to any given point
in space. And why id only Azrais generals pick up Azrais bloodline and
Andurias generals pick up Andurias bloodline?

If we use mere geographical distance, we have to postulate that the
explosion wiped out everybody who did not have a sufficient number of HP in
teh area, leaving only the high-level characters alive to absorb the
bloodlines. But I still prefer spiritual closeness to physical closeness as
the deciding factor.

/Carl

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[Trevyr]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Gary

> If one were to map out a sort of topography of the explosion at Deismaar
> with the "shockwave" of divine energies that infused the attendant mortals
> with bloodlines depicted as rings how big might those rings be?

Interesting question, although I will say to start out that my conception of
how things happened at Deismaar is a little different than yours. There is a
picture of Deismaar somewhere that shows some human-scale figures fighting
in the foreground, and some god-scale figures fighting in the clouds above
them. This is more how I`ve always figured things went. The gods fought in
physical but godly form right over the peak of Mt. Deismaar, while their
allies fought on a battlefield or a series of battlefields sort of on the
eastern slopes of the mountains. So, when the gods did their kaplooey thing,
I really imagine it more like their essences attempt to tranfer to the gods`
champions, but the champions, while they absorb MOST of the essence, cannot
absorb it quickly enough, and a goodly portion of it spreads out from their
locations. This means that instead of a single "ground zero" there would be
seven `ground zeroes` around not where the gods stood, but around where
their champions stood.

This picture, incidentally, allows me to justify two things: 1.) after the
godsdeath, the Deismaar landbridge was destroyed/sunk under the sea, and 2.)
there were people at Deismaar who weren`t instantly pummeled to death from
the pressure front, buried by the debris cloud, or drowned with the sinking
landscape. This is because the gods were a goodly bit away from their lowly
followers, the debris cloud spread largely in a southerly direction (killing
the REST of Azrai`s army, which hadn`t even made it to Deismaar yet), and
most of those who escaped where either at the north end of the battlefield
where the land sank more slowly and they had time to make it to safer
ground, or were close to the shore and got out on the Masetian ships which
managed to avoid the giant whirlpools that formed as the land sank.

Incidentally, I`ve always placed the battle on the eastern slopes of
Deismaar so the Masetian ships could play a role, but I suspect that the
argument could be made that the main land-path was probably on the Western
side of the mountain, since those who crossed it seem to have spread mainly
north and west, leaving the east for the Basarji to colonize. This argument
may depend on the extent to which the Adurian refugees could rely on
adequate shipping or whether they moved primarily by land. I think there is
good evidense that the Andu at least took largely a land route (so they
could take their horses with them), but I`m less sure of the Ryuvik and the
Brecht.

Oh, bless me, I`ve forgotten about the Vos. Oh, well, perhaps it`s not that
good of an argument.

> There are five categories of bloodline strength; tainted, minor, major,
> great and true. Strength was originally linked to a character`s proximity
> to "ground zero" of the explosion. (One might also speculate that
> bloodline score of those originally infused was directly related to
> proximity, only becoming variable due to events following the battle.) In
> addition, there is a small group of individuals who ascended to
> godhood due
> to their exposure to the energies of that explosion, so we can hypothesize
> five "rings" surrounding an "inner circle" that represents the explosion`s
> "ground zero" for the purposes of such a topographical map.
<snip>

One might be able to make a case for Tainted bloodlines being a degeration
of a stronger bloodline, rather than a "natural" catagory that existed
immediately post-deismaar. The word does seem to imply that, but I don`t
want to read too much into that.

> Optionally, those characters who got a true bloodline could also be at
> "ground zero" along with the mortals who ascended (that`s my reading, at
> least) but did not ascend for reasons beyond their (or our) ken--much to
> the chagrin of at least one of them.... For the purpose of speculation we
> can just put the inner circle in along with the first ring if we
> want to go
> with that.

Well, how`s this for some heavy-duty kenning. The entirety of each god`s
essence was INTENDED (if that`s the right word) to go directly into their
champions. However, because the champions were only humans, they couldn`t
absorb the "stream" of godpower fast enough--at least at first. As the
champions underwent apotheosis, they shortly "grew" enough to absorb the
entire stream, so that the entire (say) last half of the godsblood went
solely to them, completing their transformation. (I may speculate that
Kriesha was in the process of healing Belenik when the apotheosis occurred,
which is why both ascended rather than only one).

Thus, instead of a "pool" of godstuff `deepest` at the center and shallower
at the edges, you get an expanding ring of power. Those closest to the ring
get a more concentrated dose, but as the ring expands it thins out, so those
more distant get smaller doses. This explains the bimodality of the
distribution pretty well. We don`t have a plethora of demigods and godlets
running around because MOST of the godsblood was absorbed by the champions,
while those around them could at most absorb a small fraction of the initial
"oversplash."

> Of course, the rings needn`t be perfect circles. We don`t know
> how (or if)
> the explosion was affected by the actual topography, weather,
> etc. For the
> purpose of the basic idea here it doesn`t really make a difference,
> though. "Average" width will do.
>
> The question: how wide is inner circle A and each ring B-F?

Caveat emptor.
Circle A (True bloodlines): 10`
Circle B (Great bloodlines): 30`
Circle C (Major bloodlines): 90`
Circle D (Minor bloodlines): 270`
Circle E (Tainted bloodlines): 1/2 mile or so

> Related questions: How many people survived the explosion? How many
> occupants might each ring have had? That`s before any subsequent orgy of
> bloodtheft, of course.

# occupants:
Circle A: ~10
Circle B: 50
Circle C: 250
Circle D: 1250
Circle E: 5000

% Survived:
Circle A: >50%
Circle B: 40%
Circle C: 20%
Circle D: 10%
Circle E: 5%

Is that enough wild speculation for you? I`ve got more...

Mark

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[Azrai]

I'am not shure if "divine energy" should behave like physical shockwaves. Further I don't think that the gods were that much centered. So IMO it should be possible that someone in circle X ascended to a minor bloodline and an other in the same circle to a major bloodline.

[geeman]

At 10:49 AM 3/20/2003 +0100, Azrai wrote:

> I`am not shure if "divine energy" should behave like physical
> shockwaves. Further I don`t think that the gods were that much centered.
> So IMO it should be possible that someone in circle X ascended to a minor
> bloodline and an other in the same circle to a major bloodline.

What I`m really trying to get at here was the size and scope of the
explosion, the particulars of how bloodlines were infused aside. Whether
there were six (or seven) "ground zero" places or whatever, under the most
abstract concept of how bloodlines were created there had to have been some
radius for the effect. Characters in far off Vosgaard weren`t infused with
a bloodline, while those within a certain perimeter were. Proximity was
playing a part.

So under any and all interpretations of how bloodline was infused upon
those present--whether it occurred in concentric circles or whether it was
a single area of effect that influenced the individuals in it according to
some category other than their proximity to the primary figures, or any
other possibility--what are the distances involved? What was the range and
diameter of the explosion?

Gary

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[kingrick]

Where is Deismaar?

[Birthright-L]

I think everyone on the battle site was affected more or less, and basically
nobody else.

How large was the battle of Diesmar? Howe many people were there? How large
was the field of battle? How mobile was the battle? There is a lot we don`t
know.

This all boils down to the cultural level we assume these people had at the
time. I`d say that perhaps there were 10,000 people from each of the five
peoples and perhaps twice as many from Aduria - 150,000 men in all. And that
is guessing very, very high. How large an area do these people need to fight
on?

But does it really make a difference? Isn`t it just enough to say that it
affected everyone present more or less, and almost nobody else? Perhaps a
cleric in deep rapport with a dying deity could be affected even if
presently somewhere else, but I can`t remember any such from the sources.

I guess what you are really aiming for is how many people gained bloodlines
at Diesmar? That is a genuine issue, one I`m sure the heralds of Anuire are
constantly wrestling with - but I`m afraid I can`t give you an answer, and I
think that speculations should be based on the distribution of bloodlines
that we know of, rather than topographical data from the battle.

/Carl


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: How Big Was the Bang at Deismaar? [2#1463]


> At 10:49 AM 3/20/2003 +0100, Azrai wrote:
>
> > I`am not shure if "divine energy" should behave like physical
> > shockwaves. Further I don`t think that the gods were that much
centered.
> > So IMO it should be possible that someone in circle X ascended to a
minor
> > bloodline and an other in the same circle to a major bloodline.
>
> What I`m really trying to get at here was the size and scope of the
> explosion, the particulars of how bloodlines were infused aside. Whether
> there were six (or seven) "ground zero" places or whatever, under the most
> abstract concept of how bloodlines were created there had to have been
some
> radius for the effect. Characters in far off Vosgaard weren`t infused
with
> a bloodline, while those within a certain perimeter were. Proximity was
> playing a part.
>
> So under any and all interpretations of how bloodline was infused upon
> those present--whether it occurred in concentric circles or whether it was
> a single area of effect that influenced the individuals in it according to
> some category other than their proximity to the primary figures, or any
> other possibility--what are the distances involved? What was the range
and
> diameter of the explosion?
>
> Gary
>
>
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[AnakinMiller]

> kingrick wrote:
> Where is Deismaar?

It was located where the straights of Aerele are today.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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[Azrai]

Originally posted by AnakinMiller

It was located where the straights of Aerele are today.


The exact location is not for shure. The designers left it open. Personally I placed Deismaar at the Arnienbae, it looks like a "big hole" there....

[Ariadne]

IMO Deismaar is indeed in the Straits of Aerele. The explosion was so great, that an gargantuan hole appeared that was so deep that it only could be filled with water.

IMO the explosion must have been like the meteorits who crushed on Jupiter a few years ago. It must be heard till the place where the Magian lives today (hours later of course).

I don't think there is one "ground zero", but six explosions (resulting in the seventh) might be reasonable.

[Azrai]

Do not forget that there existed a landbridge between Aduria and Anuire, so not the whole Straits of Aerele are Deismaar. As I said I do not like the comparison of physical/geographical and divine explosions. An explosion like a meteor would have caused major climatic and geographical changes, that was not the case.

[Trevyr]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Azrai

> Azrai wrote:
> Do not forget that there existed a landbridge between Aduria and
> Anuire, so not the whole Straits of Aerele are Deismaar. As I
> said I do not like the comparison of physical/geographical and
> divine explosions. An explosion like a meteor would have caused
> major climatic and geographical changes, that was not the case.

I would say that a subsidance of a land bridge was a jolly big geographical
change, and that we actually have no information on whether there were
climatic changes associated with the events at Deismaar. At any rate, it
doesn`t have to be as big an explosion as a good-sized meteor, just
something on the order of the Krakatoa explosion. That did influence
climate, but only for a few years.

So how DO you explain the disappearance of Mt. Deismaar and the land bridge
if NOT due to the influence of a physical explosion?

Mark V.

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[DanMcSorley]

On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Mark VanderMeulen wrote:
> So how DO you explain the disappearance of Mt. Deismaar and the land bridge
> if NOT due to the influence of a physical explosion?

I don`t think it was an explosion that resulted in a crater, because that
would have wiped out all the people rather than giving them a chance to
escape. I think either the good gods made the landbridge sink as their
final act, to safeguard their people from the adurians, or the land was so
tortured by the sorrow of the death of all the gods that it sunk itself
under the sea in despair. Something like that. It had to be slow enough
that people could retreat to either side of it.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Trevyr]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of daniel mcsorley

> I don`t think it was an explosion that resulted in a crater, because that
> would have wiped out all the people rather than giving them a chance to
> escape. I think either the good gods made the landbridge sink as their
> final act, to safeguard their people from the adurians, or the land was so
> tortured by the sorrow of the death of all the gods that it sunk itself
> under the sea in despair. Something like that. It had to be slow enough
> that people could retreat to either side of it.

OK, that`s perfectly acceptable, and kind of cool. I just want to point out
that my scenario also involved a slow enough subsidance to allow people to
escape (indeed, that was in part my point) while still involving a blast
that was at least in part physical.

So do you use this `land`s personality` in any other ways? I could imagine
that you could, for example, say that Kal-Saitharak (sp?) has become
increasingly more volcanic as the earth rebels against the evil wieght of
the Gorgon living upon it.

Mark V.

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[DanMcSorley]

On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Mark VanderMeulen wrote:
> So do you use this `land`s personality` in any other ways? I could imagine
> that you could, for example, say that Kal-Saitharak (sp?) has become
> increasingly more volcanic as the earth rebels against the evil wieght of
> the Gorgon living upon it.

Havens notes that Rhormarch suffers from earthquakes because the earth is
grumbling about the civil war.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark VanderMeulen" <vander@BIOLOGY2.WUSTL.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:24 AM

> So how DO you explain the disappearance of Mt. Deismaar and the land
bridge
> if NOT due to the influence of a physical explosion?

Azrai grabbed the region and threw it at Andurias` head. ;-)

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 06:43 PM 3/19/2003 -0600, Mark VanderMeulen wrote:

>(I may speculate that Kriesha was in the process of healing Belenik when
>the apotheosis occurred,
>which is why both ascended rather than only one).

Given the relative power of Azrai (6:1 at least) he`d probably be strong
enough to create at least two "godspawn" if each of the other six got one
apiece. I kind of like the idea that Raesene was purposefully not elevated
for one reason or another, though. It just strikes me as being in keeping
with so many other aspects of the character`s background.

> > How many people survived the explosion? How many
> > occupants might each ring have had? That`s before any subsequent orgy of
> > bloodtheft, of course.
>
># occupants:
>Circle A: ~10
>Circle B: 50
>Circle C: 250
>Circle D: 1250
>Circle E: 5000

How many total people were there on the battlefield do you think? Were
there many who were outside the "blast radius" of the explosion and, thus,
remained commoners?

>% Survived:
>Circle A: >50%
>Circle B: 40%
>Circle C: 20%
>Circle D: 10%
>Circle E: 5%

So just to be clear there would then have been

Total participants:
Circle A: 6-8
Circle B: 120
Circle C: 1,250
Circle D: 12,500
Circle E: 100,000

Gary

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[Trevyr]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Gary

> ># occupants:
> >Circle A: ~10
> >Circle B: 50
> >Circle C: 250
> >Circle D: 1250
> >Circle E: 5000
>
> How many total people were there on the battlefield do you think? Were
> there many who were outside the "blast radius" of the explosion and, thus,
> remained commoners?

I`m guessing at first approach that there were maybe 10,000 Cerilian humans
against perhaps 50,000 total Adurian humans (and humanoids), of which
perhaps 10,000 had arrived by the time the battle was joined. And once the
Cerilians had committed to battle about 5,000 elves appeared out of hiding
to join the Adurians.

> >% Survived:
> >Circle A: >50%
> >Circle B: 40%
> >Circle C: 20%
> >Circle D: 10%
> >Circle E: 5%
>
> So just to be clear there would then have been
>
> Total participants:
> Circle A: 6-8
> Circle B: 120
> Circle C: 1,250
> Circle D: 12,500
> Circle E: 100,000

Actually I was thinking the other way around: of about 5000 persons who
gained a tainted bloodline, perhaps 250 (5%) survived. But if you like it
the other way around I have no particular objection, other that that it
raises the scale of things a bit more that I see as reasonable for this
economic stage.

Mark V.

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[Nikolai II]

If 8k defenders, against them I'd go with 15k invaders + 2k Vos + 3k elves. Elves switched side, so they fought for both parties.

Something like that, IMHO. Does any novel or sourcebook give any figures?

[geeman]

At 08:34 AM 3/21/2003 -0600, Mark Van der Meulen wrote:

>I`m guessing at first approach that there were maybe 10,000 Cerilian
>humans against perhaps 50,000 total Adurian humans (and humanoids), of
>which perhaps 10,000 had arrived by the time the battle was joined. And
>once the Cerilians had committed to battle about 5,000 elves appeared out
>of hiding
>to join the Adurians.

This is interesting because estimates of the numbers of people present at
Deismaar--not just the above one but all that have been suggested--are
remarkably smaller than I had thought they would be. I don`t know why but
I had just assumed it was a fantastically (impossibly) large battle
involving nearly all the able-bodied combatant in Cerilia and Aduria for
about 500 miles.... It was the kind of thing that the gods themselves
showed up at--even a dragon or two showed up--so it seems likely that they
would have "called" everyone to the battle that they could, and because of
the nature of that call everyone who could appear would have.

Battles involving the tens of thousands are, of course, huge endeavors and
nothing to sniff at. I had thought it would have been on a scale not
really possible to represent in BR "domain level" terms; hundreds of
thousands, maybe into the lower 7 digits and an explosion that covered a
couple of provinces.

>Actually I was thinking the other way around: of about 5000 persons who
>gained a tainted bloodline, perhaps 250 (5%) survived. But if you like it
>the other way around I have no particular objection, other that that it
>raises the scale of things a bit more that I see as reasonable for this
>economic stage.

Yikes, that`d make for less than a thousand scions after Deismaar. I think
there should be more than that.

Gary

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[Trevyr]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Gary

> This is interesting because estimates of the numbers of people present at
> Deismaar--not just the above one but all that have been suggested--are
> remarkably smaller than I had thought they would be. I don`t know why but
> I had just assumed it was a fantastically (impossibly) large battle
> involving nearly all the able-bodied combatant in Cerilia and Aduria for
> about 500 miles.... It was the kind of thing that the gods themselves
> showed up at--even a dragon or two showed up--so it seems likely that they
> would have "called" everyone to the battle that they could, and because of
> the nature of that call everyone who could appear would have.
>
> Battles involving the tens of thousands are, of course, huge endeavors and
> nothing to sniff at. I had thought it would have been on a scale not
> really possible to represent in BR "domain level" terms; hundreds of
> thousands, maybe into the lower 7 digits and an explosion that covered a
> couple of provinces.

Well, that is certainly possible, and perhaps I am giving less credit to the
new Cerilians than they deserve. I tend to think of them as refugees, but
they`ve been settled in Cerilia for hundreds of years before Azrai decides
to move in, haven`t they?

However, I really think we need to think of the Tribes as Tribal in
organization before Deismaar. I don`t think they really got organized in a
feudal or imperial manner until after Deismaar, when Haelyn`s New Ideas
finally managed to supplant the inherent conservatism of the priests of
Anduiras (and similarly for the other cultures). So I`m resistant to the
idea that there were millions of humans in Cerilia to participate in
Deismaar. Sure the Andu had settled down and picked up agriculture to a much
larger extent than they had in Aduria, but I would argue that it was still
at a fairly primitive level, perhaps akin to early manorialism ca 800 CE.

> Yikes, that`d make for less than a thousand scions after
> Deismaar. I think
> there should be more than that.

Why? The thing about biological organisms is that they tend to increase in
number over time (unless limited by their environment). It seems to me that
a logical question when dealing with a heritable trait that confers a
pronounced fitness benefit is why it HASN`T spread to the entire population.
Part of my logic for keeping the numbers of individuals that survived
Deismaar low is to explain why scions aren`t more common. Part of the answer
may be that the trait also leads to a decrease in reproductive success.
Upper classes do tend to have lower birth rates, but I think that over the
years there were many lords who would dally with any wench who would have
them (or whom they could coerse), and many a lord who enjoyed rapine as one
of the rewards of success on the battlefield. Perhaps scions have reduced
fertility for some reason, or reduced reproductive success with non-scions.

Mark V.

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[geeman]

At 04:11 PM 3/21/2003 -0600, Mark Van der Meulen wrote:

>>I had thought it would have been on a scale not really possible to
>>represent in BR "domain level" terms; hundreds of thousands, maybe into
>>the lower 7 digits and an explosion that covered a couple of provinces.
>
>Well, that is certainly possible, and perhaps I am giving less credit to the
>new Cerilians than they deserve. I tend to think of them as refugees, but
>they`ve been settled in Cerilia for hundreds of years before Azrai decides
>to move in, haven`t they?

Definitely true, plus one has to take into consideration that while they
were "refugees" it`s very possible to look at them not so much as fleeing
as fighting a sort of forced migration--the long-term cultural equivalent
of a fighting withdrawal. Many real world peoples of very fierce
reputation were themselves being forced out of their homelands by other
aggressive cultures in the long standing push and shove of culture
clash. Several of the Cerilian cultures are based, in fact, on real world
cultures that have had long periods of just that kind of paradigm.

Probably another thing to consider is that Cerilia is the end of the tether
in that process for many of the people who travelled there. The
convergence of cultures on Cerilia indicates that there was no place else
to go. The Battle of Deismaar could represent for many of the participants
a sort of massive last stand and, therefore, attract all able bodied
combatants amongst peoples long inured to war.

You know, the more I think about this the more interested I am in running a
"background" BR campaign. Several folks have presented there ideas for
such a campaign in the past, I`ll have to go through the archives to check
them out....

>However, I really think we need to think of the Tribes as Tribal in
>organization before Deismaar. I don`t think they really got organized in a
>feudal or imperial manner until after Deismaar, when Haelyn`s New Ideas
>finally managed to supplant the inherent conservatism of the priests of
>Anduiras (and similarly for the other cultures). So I`m resistant to the
>idea that there were millions of humans in Cerilia to participate in
>Deismaar. Sure the Andu had settled down and picked up agriculture to a much
>larger extent than they had in Aduria, but I would argue that it was still
>at a fairly primitive level, perhaps akin to early manorialism ca 800 CE.

"Tribes" is, I think, a slightly deceptive term in this regard. It bears
too much of a resemblance to what many people see as small, relatively
undeveloped communities. One could look at the Mongol hordes as existing
in a cultural system that was largely tribal, yet sophisticated in many
regards and certainly highly populated. Tribe is more of a distinction of
heritage and identity than a statement of cultural/technical development in
regards to the Andurians IMO.

> > Yikes, that`d make for less than a thousand scions after
> > Deismaar. I think
> > there should be more than that.
>
>Why? The thing about biological organisms is that they tend to increase in
>number over time (unless limited by their environment). It seems to me that
>a logical question when dealing with a heritable trait that confers a
>pronounced fitness benefit is why it HASN`T spread to the entire population.

Well, you`re the biologist so I`m sure you`re much more familiar with this
kind of thing that I, but I would suggest two main factors. The first is
the decline of bloodline scores over the generations. They aren`t really
the same as a biological trait in that unless actively selected for (bred)
or passed on through investiture they will disappear in a few
generations. A bloodline score of 63 or lower will breed out of a
population--if not maintained--in six generations or less.

63
31
15
7
3
1
0

Personally, I think it might make more sense to have bloodline inherit
based more on bloodline strength than bloodline score for a couple of
reasons, mostly having to do with some ideas one what bloodline actually
represents and practical game mechanics. In such a system, however, a
tainted bloodline of any score will "breed out" in one generation if mated
with a commoner. That is not, of course, canon so take it or leave it.

There`ve been somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-80 generations since
Deismaar, so special care must be made to preserve these bloodlines or they
would have long since died out.

The other factor is that the survivability of scions might be somewhat
debatable.... They do, of course, gain blood abilities that help them
survive in relation to commoners, but they are also targets for other
scions, making bloodline a somewhat cannibalistic biological trait. I
remember reading a short story many years ago that presented the idea that
intelligence was not really a survival trait for a species since it seems
to lead inevitably to self-extinction. There could be a similar situation
where bloodline is concerned--particularly in BR where the gods themselves
suicided. Divinity would, therefore, be a short-term survivability factor,
but a long term dead end, and bloodline the beginning of the process of
divinity that eventually fails. Many fantasy settings and much fantasy
literature premise the death of the gods in the face of the rising power of
technology, so I think that fits into what is a fairly universal fantasy theme.

Both of these factors would be much more significant in the years
immediately after the battle, so there would have been a dramatic "die off"
of bloodlines in the next several generations. The methods needed to
preserve bloodline and how they were passed on to subsequent generations
would probably have taken at least a generation or three to
discover. There would be no investiture ceremony that passed a bloodline
from one character to another immediately after the battle--unless one
supposes that knowledge was somehow divinely gifted to scions. How long
might it have taken to develop that ability? I don`t know, but I`d think
it would take years to explore the powers of a bloodline at the domain level.

The "averaging" of parents` bloodlines in their offspring would similarly
have been unknown to scions in the years immediately after the battle. I
generally assume that a bloodline and blood abilities don`t manifest until
a child reaches maturity, so unless one is again assuming that knowledge of
how these things work is gifted to scions somehow along with their
bloodline, even the knowledge that the bloodline was inherited would be
unknown for 16-17 years after the battle. Also, unless there was a
fantastic number of camp followers and/or an unusual number of women
warriors on the battlefield most scions would be returning home to mates
who were themselves commoners. The later diffusion of blooded characters
through the population of Cerilia would make the opportunities for
preserving bloodline through breeding much more difficult. If there are
less than a thousand of them there would be only a few in each province on
average. (More in more densely populated provinces, of course.)

Initially after the battle I imagine there was a brief flurry of
bloodthefts that further whittled away at the numbers of scions available
for "breeding purposes" in subsequent generations. This would be possible
mostly because immediately after the battle is the only occasion when so
many blooded characters would have been within proximity of one another,
and because they already arrived to kill each other in the first
place. How many scions died at each other`s hands in the days after the
battle? That`s hard to say, of course, but I`d guess the percentage
somewhere in the lower double digits.

>Part of my logic for keeping the numbers of individuals that survived
>Deismaar low is to explain why scions aren`t more common. Part of the answer
>may be that the trait also leads to a decrease in reproductive success.
>Upper classes do tend to have lower birth rates, but I think that over the
>years there were many lords who would dally with any wench who would have
>them (or whom they could coerse), and many a lord who enjoyed rapine as one
>of the rewards of success on the battlefield. Perhaps scions have reduced
>fertility for some reason, or reduced reproductive success with non-scions.

Personally, I like to think that the number of blooded characters has been
steadily increasing over the centuries, but in a way that is quite
slow. If there are 10 million Cerilians (all that Cerilian Census stuff I
did a few years ago indicated more like 5-6 million, but that`s very low,
more like 20-25 million would probably be a better number) at present and 1
in a thousand of them are scions that makes for 10,000 blooded
characters. A more "realistic" population would make for 20-25,000
scions. If half that number survived Deismaar I think that would be about
right.

Gary

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[Trevyr]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

> "Tribes" is, I think, a slightly deceptive term in this regard. It bears
> too much of a resemblance to what many people see as small, relatively
> undeveloped communities. One could look at the Mongol hordes as existing
> in a cultural system that was largely tribal, yet sophisticated in many
> regards and certainly highly populated. Tribe is more of a distinction of
> heritage and identity than a statement of cultural/technical
> development in
> regards to the Andurians IMO.

Well, be that as it may, I still think that the Andu were just in the
process of inventing the ideals of statehood and corporate existance above
the level of clan or family. In part due to their experience with the power
of Azrai`s organized Empire (from which they fled) and as a consequence of
having settled in a much more fertile land than their original homeland
(which I imagine to be extensive dry plains or plains and savanna). I
certainly wouldn`t want to argue that the Mongols weren`t sophisticated, but
I would prefer to compare the Andu with either the Celts or the Goths.

> Both of these factors would be much more significant in the years
> immediately after the battle, so there would have been a dramatic
> "die off"
> of bloodlines in the next several generations. The methods needed to
> preserve bloodline and how they were passed on to subsequent generations
> would probably have taken at least a generation or three to
> discover. There would be no investiture ceremony that passed a bloodline
> from one character to another immediately after the battle--unless one
> supposes that knowledge was somehow divinely gifted to scions. How long
> might it have taken to develop that ability? I don`t know, but I`d think
> it would take years to explore the powers of a bloodline at the
> domain level.

Good point re: the die-off of unmaintained bloodlines and the implications
of that for the generations following Deismaar. I`ll have to take some time
to digest that. I also like the idea that it takes some time for marriage
practices to change in the cultures. It is interesting to speculate that the
most powerful scions in the generation following Deismaar were those whose
parents were young enough not to be married before the battle, and who
happened to meet their spouse at or immediately after the battle. Only this
small proportion would carry the fullest strength of their bloodline into
the next generation. I imagine that Roele was one of these lucky ones, and
most of the other Great bloodline possesors` ancestors probably were too.

I wonder if we can create an argument that the practice polygamy was
partially responsible for the die-off of the Masetians. (I have no evidense
that they did, just pure speculation.)

Mark V.

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[ConjurerDragon]

Mark VanderMeulen wrote:

>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
>>[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Gary
>>
>>...
>>
>>Yikes, that`d make for less than a thousand scions after
>>Deismaar. I think
>>there should be more than that.
>>
>Why? The thing about biological organisms is that they tend to increase in
>number over time (unless limited by their environment). It seems to me that
>a logical question when dealing with a heritable trait that confers a
>pronounced fitness benefit is why it HASN`T spread to the entire population.
>Part of my logic for keeping the numbers of individuals that survived
>Deismaar low is to explain why scions aren`t more common. Part of the answer
>may be that the trait also leads to a decrease in reproductive success.
>Upper classes do tend to have lower birth rates, but I think that over the
>years there were many lords who would dally with any wench who would have
>them (or whom they could coerse), and many a lord who enjoyed rapine as one
>of the rewards of success on the battlefield. Perhaps scions have reduced
>fertility for some reason, or reduced reproductive success with non-scions.
>Mark V.
>
That would contradict some of the novels, e.g. Iron Throne, were the
unblooded elf Sylvanna needs a potion to prevent becoming pregnant from
Aedan (the chancellor). At an other point in this book Aedan explains
that some commoner females tend to seduce nobles just for the reason to
get with child and be supported by their former lover - if not that he
accepts the bastard as son, then at least with some financial support.
bye
Michael Romes

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[geeman]

At 10:33 AM 3/22/2003 +0100, Michael Romes wrote:

>>Several of the Cerilian cultures are based, in fact, on real world
>>cultures that have had long periods of just that kind of paradigm.
>
>Visigothi and Aurigothi or what was their names? (Westgoten and Ostgoten
>in german)
>Mmmh, even the Kimbern und Teutonen who were finally defeated by the
>roman legions were quite numerous despite being just tribes.

:) Unless pressed for more information, I try to avoid actually naming the
historical paradigms I`m thinking of since that seems to lead so often to a
rather baroque discussion of such cultures....

>>Probably another thing to consider is that Cerilia is the end of the
>>tether in that process for many of the people who travelled there. The
>>convergence of cultures on Cerilia indicates that there was no place else
>>to go.
>
>That does not mean that there is no other place. It could just be that the
>evil empire blocked all ways except north.

It gets pretty icy and inhospitable north of Cerilia....

>>The Battle of Deismaar could represent for many of the participants a
>>sort of massive last stand and, therefore, attract all able bodied
>>combatants amongst peoples long inured to war.
>
>Then a much larger number of people ought to be blooded if really ALL able
>men had fought at Deismaar. The number of scions nowadays leads me to the
>conclusion, that while everyone at Deismaar got blooded more or less, that
>a large number of people either died at Deismaar due to the cataclysm that
>is good described e.g. at the end of "The Spider´s Test" or not present at
>Deismaar.

I`m starting to lean towards an interpretation that not everyone at the
battle actually got a bloodline. The power of the gods was a bit selective
in it`s manifestation, and there was some intelligence behind that selection.

Gary

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[ConjurerDragon]

Gary wrote:

> At 04:11 PM 3/21/2003 -0600, Mark Van der Meulen wrote:
>
> ...
> Definitely true, plus one has to take into consideration that while they
> were "refugees" it`s very possible to look at them not so much as fleeing
> as fighting a sort of forced migration--the long-term cultural equivalent
> of a fighting withdrawal. Many real world peoples of very fierce
> reputation were themselves being forced out of their homelands by other
> aggressive cultures in the long standing push and shove of culture
> clash. Several of the Cerilian cultures are based, in fact, on real
> world
> cultures that have had long periods of just that kind of paradigm.

Visigothi and Aurigothi or what was their names? (Westgoten and Ostgoten
in german)
Mmmh, even the Kimbern und Teutonen who were finally defeated by the
roman legions were quite numerous despite being just tribes.

> Probably another thing to consider is that Cerilia is the end of the
> tether
> in that process for many of the people who travelled there. The
> convergence of cultures on Cerilia indicates that there was no place else
> to go.

That does not mean that there is no other place. It could just be that
the evil empire blocked all ways except north.

> The Battle of Deismaar could represent for many of the participants
> a sort of massive last stand and, therefore, attract all able bodied
> combatants amongst peoples long inured to war.

Then a much larger number of people ought to be blooded if really ALL
able men had fought at Deismaar.
The number of scions nowadays leads me to the conclusion, that while
everyone at Deismaar got blooded more or less, that a large number of
people either died at Deismaar due to the cataclysm that is good
described e.g. at the end of "The Spider´s Test" or not present at Deismaar.
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

Gary wrote:

> At 10:33 AM 3/22/2003 +0100, Michael Romes wrote:

....

>>> Probably another thing to consider is that Cerilia is the end of the
>>> tether in that process for many of the people who travelled there.
>>> The convergence of cultures on Cerilia indicates that there was no
>>> place else to go.
>>
>> That does not mean that there is no other place. It could just be
>> that the evil empire blocked all ways except north.
>
> It gets pretty icy and inhospitable north of Cerilia....

The Cerilians fled from Aduria, if the evil empire blocked any way
except north, it had to be Cerilia they went to.
I did not mean north of Cerilia but north of Aduria (the starting point
of their escape. Mmmh, if Aebrynnis is a planet like earth, and the
Dragon Isles of the Basarji are southeast of nowadays Khinasi, wouldn´t
they have been west of Aduria? Why did all or at least nearly all 6
tribes flee north?

Had the evil empire a strong presence on the sea as well? Or just
controlled all ports/the coast while the tribes still retained the
ablity to move away without being annihilated immediately because the
evil empire did concentrate on the coast and not inland?

>> Then a much larger number of people ought to be blooded if really ALL
>> able men had fought at Deismaar. The number of scions nowadays leads
>> me to the conclusion, that while everyone at Deismaar got blooded
>> more or less, that a large number of people either died at Deismaar
>> due to the cataclysm that is good described e.g. at the end of "The
>> Spider´s Test" or not present at Deismaar.
>
> I`m starting to lean towards an interpretation that not everyone at
> the battle actually got a bloodline. The power of the gods was a bit
> selective in it`s manifestation, and there was some intelligence
> behind that selection.

It is not behind the mechanic for bloodtheft used in the draft, there is
is just RP released and people around receiving something or nothing
according to the number of RPs.

If the same system is used to determine the result at Deismaar, then the
power of the old gods had to be limited or REALLY large numbers of
people around to have some get no bloodline at all.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Birthright-L]

From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>

> At an other point in this book Aedan explains
> that some commoner females tend to seduce nobles just for the reason to
> get with child and be supported by their former lover - if not that he
> accepts the bastard as son, then at least with some financial support.
> bye
>

This proof is very weak IMO. First, it might just be class thinking on his
part - a justification for using what is effectively prostitutes. Second, if
the chance of conception is low, liaisons with nobles are relatively
risk-free. And even if pregnancy occurs, rare bastards are more likely to be
recognized than common bastards.

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[DanMcSorley]

On Sat, 22 Mar 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> Visigothi and Aurigothi or what was their names? (Westgoten and Ostgoten
> in german)

Visigoth and Ostrogoth in English, probably. That`s how I picture the
Anuireans et al at Deismaar. It seems to be reasonably consistent with
the setting material, too. Check out the description of Haelyn`s shield
in the BoP, as a "tribal war board" or something to that effect.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 3:33 AM


> Visigothi and Aurigothi or what was their names?

Visigoths and Ostrogoths.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Trevyr]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
> [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM]On Behalf Of Michael Romes

> Visigothi and Aurigothi or what was their names? (Westgoten and Ostgoten
> in german)
> Mmmh, even the Kimbern und Teutonen who were finally defeated by the
> roman legions were quite numerous despite being just tribes.

Oh, well if pushed I guess I would say the Visigoths. I vaguely remember
some estimates of the numbers of Visigoths settling in Iberia as being
around 200,000, and I see some parallels between later economic development
in Anuire and in Iberia. Although I suppose that the 200,000 figure may be
numbers of men rather than total persons in an even-sex-ratio population, as
I was thinking of it. Mostly I was refering in general to the germanic
tribes that invaded the senescent roman empire. The Celts, my other example,
were hardly uniform either.

Mark V.

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