Instead of a 7th ability score.

[ecliptic]

Use Charisma instead. :)

Sometimes thing simply need to be made simpler, for the benefit of the entire game.

[Mourn]

Originally posted by ecliptic
Use Charisma instead. :)

Sometimes thing simply need to be made simpler, for the benefit of the entire game.

You do have a point, there.

Charisma reflects force of personality, which most scions have in spades (though not necessarily in the same way). Tie the actually bloodline system to the templates or whatever system gets chosen, but have the ability score used along with it be Charisma.

I never though of that before, and I think I'll test it out.

[irdeggman]

So scions would most likely be bards and sorcerers since Charisma is their prime ability? I would not favor something that has certain class types being more powerful scions. It should not favor any one class in its application.

[Nikolai II]

Use prime ability, then no class will be favored ;)

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Nikolai II


Use prime ability, then no class will be favored ;)

What about multi-calss characters? Since the 3rd edition rules have allowed (and basically encouraged) more multiclassing this doesn't quite hold sway either.

Now I do understand why charisma is a good ability to score to use for scion seeing how they are very leadership based, but it would cause many problems to choose an ability score that is so tied to certain classes. Using a varying ability score, for each character is also quite cumbersome and logic-losing. I mean every player would choose his character's highest ability to use as the base one for his blood.

[Shade]

At 05:53 PM 3/16/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1437
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> So scions would most likely be bards and sorcerers since Charisma is
their prime ability? I would not favor something that has certain class
types being more powerful scions. It should not favor any one class in its
application.

Agreed. IMO Charisma is already an overpowered stat - you can use it to add
to AC (arcane duelist, mystic wanderer, shaman), damage (iaijutsu master,
divine might), initiative (iaijutsu master), saving throws (many classes),
and spellcasting (again many classes).

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[irdeggman]

Actually Shade I think that 3rd ed finally found a reason to watch your character's charisma score instead of minimizing it, as was the norm in 2nd edition.

[Mourn]

Originally posted by irdeggman
So scions would most likely be bards and sorcerers since Charisma is their prime ability? I would not favor something that has certain class types being more powerful scions. It should not favor any one class in its application.

Well.. let's see... the sorcerer's power stems from his blood, which sounds similar to a scion to me.

And how does it make them more powerful? How is a scion sorcerer who relies solely on Charisma more powerful than a scion wizard that relies on Intelligence and Charisma?

If Charisma was the ability score related to Bloodline, then it would give a scion fighter a good reason to have a high Charisma (which he lacks now, because he has only one Charisma-based skill).


Originally posted by Shade
Agreed. IMO Charisma is already an overpowered stat - you can use it to add
to AC (arcane duelist, mystic wanderer, shaman), damage (iaijutsu master,
divine might), initiative (iaijutsu master), saving throws (many classes),
and spellcasting (again many classes).


Overpowered?! HOW?!

Arcane duelist, mystic wanderer, and shaman add it to their AC. Big deal. So, if one of these fellows with a 12 Charisma (+1 to AC), he's overpowered? And this benefit only comes IF YOU TAKE THIS CLASS, which you gain as a benefit for a level.

And as for iaijitsu master... why even bring it up when monk, a core class, is such an issue for people? Plus, that also requires you to purchase ranks in a skill, and it can only be used at certain times.

Divine might is a feat... and clerics and paladins, the primary characters who would take such a feat, do not have any bonus feats, so they have to spend one of their six level-based feats on it. Then, they have to use up a limited daily-use ability to activate the power.

As for the saving throw bonus... a few classes gain it, and again... it's a class feature. There are other levels in most of those classes where they gain no additional benefit. Also, a good deal of those classes heavily rely on a different ability score (like Paladins, who rely on Wisdom for spellcasting and Strength for their combat ability).

And spellcasting... how is making the primary ability Charisma making it overpowered? Yeah, sorcerers use Charisma for spells, but have no Charisma-based skills. Why isn't Intelligence as a spellcasting ability score overpowered... after all, a high Intelligence also gives wizards more skill points.

[AnakinMiller]

> irdeggman wrote:
> So scions would most likely be bards and sorcerers since Charisma is
their prime ability? I would not favor something that has certain class
types being more powerful scions. It should not favor any one class in its
application.


Some of us do play characters with high charisma`s that are not Bard`s or
Sorcery`s.

I`m currently playing a Fighter whose lowest score is strength and highest
score is charisma.

Its all about Character Concepts, not Min-Maxing fun.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

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[Birthright-L]

From: "Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>

> IMO Charisma is already an overpowered stat - you can use it to add
> to AC (arcane duelist, mystic wanderer, shaman), damage (iaijutsu master,
> divine might), initiative (iaijutsu master), saving throws (many classes),
> and spellcasting (again many classes).
>


The operative word here is CAN. Most characters don`t get to apply their
Charisma to any of these values - but with certain enablers,you CAN. It
would be the same with bloodlines - certain characters CAN add their
Charisma mod to certain things - but far from all WILL. In toto, Charisma is
still a weak attribute.

And if there is a single standard attribute that should unite all scions,
nothing can beat Charisma!

/Carl


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[Shade]

At 09:34 PM 3/16/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1437
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> Actually Shade I think that 3rd ed finally found a reason to watch your
character`s charisma score instead of minimizing it, as was the norm in
2nd edition.

If you say so. Most of the players in my 2e games always put charisma as a
2nd or 3rd stat. I remember for our campaign that went for 4-5 years and
reached 20th level, the characters on average had a 14-15 charisma and
there was not a single bard in the group. The lowest charisma was a 10 for
the stalker ranger(on average the group had about 84 ability points). My
mage/psionicist had a 14, and the other 2 wizards had an 18 (generalist
mage) and 16 (gnome illusionist), respectively.

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 1:51 PM


> IMO Charisma is already an overpowered stat - you can use it to add
> to AC (arcane duelist, mystic wanderer, shaman), damage (iaijutsu master,
> divine might), initiative (iaijutsu master), saving throws (many classes),
> and spellcasting (again many classes).

I`d frankly ditch most of this. I know that sorcerer and bard are core, and
charisma based (I`ll add paladin, despite having personally abandon the
class), but the rest of this list could be changed or abandon in BR, where
leading people, troops, and governance is so much more important than it is
in other settings. Even so, I still think INT is more important as a skill.
I would not question the fighter who opted for 10`s or 12`s in combat
assisting stats and opted for a high INT and CHA.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mourn" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2003 4:06 PM


> Well.. let`s see... the sorcerer`s power stems from his blood,
> which sounds similar to a scion to me.

That`s one possible explanation of the sorcerer. Dragon had an issue with
all the possble explanations of what sorcerers were, and provided some dozen
of them. Since BR is all about bloodedness as a divine gift, I`d say that
argument is taken, and sorcerers need to move to some other explanation on
the list.

> How is a scion sorcerer who relies solely on Charisma more
> powerful than a scion wizard that relies on Intelligence and
> Charisma?

Ahh, because you can bundle all your power in a single attribute, rather
than having to divide it between two or more? This is a classic example of
opportunity costs, or the lack thereof.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Shade]

>And how does it make them more powerful? How is a scion sorcerer who
relies solely on Charisma more powerful than a scion wizard that relies on
Intelligence and Charisma?
>
>If Charisma was the ability score related to Bloodline, then it would give
a scion fighter a good reason to have a high Charisma (which he lacks now,
because he has only one Charisma-based skill).

...

Because he only has to concentrate his points on ONE ability to be good at
both casting and bloodline power/domain power. The Fighter or Wizard have
to spread their points between their Prime Req and their blood powers.

It`s a synergy thing... kind of like how paladins multiclass better with
sorcerers than wizards.

>
Originally posted by Shade
>Agreed. IMO Charisma is already an overpowered stat - you can use it to add
>to AC (arcane duelist, mystic wanderer, shaman), damage (iaijutsu master,
>divine might), initiative (iaijutsu master), saving throws (many classes),
>and spellcasting (again many classes).
>
>
>Overpowered?! HOW?!
>
>Arcane duelist, mystic wanderer, and shaman add it to their AC. Big deal.
So, if one of these fellows with a 12 Charisma (+1 to AC), he`s
overpowered? And this benefit only comes IF YOU TAKE THIS CLASS, which you
gain as a benefit for a level.

...okay, I will show you.

A simple, barely min/maxed BR-legal build.

Rog3/Ftr4/Holy Liberator5/Mystic Wanderer3/Divine Champion5 of Cuiraecen,
AL CG. This character is a guerilla warrior from the Church of Storm`s
Height, allied to William Moergen, helping him fight against the unlawful
rule of the usurper Jaison Raenech.

At level 20 base stats (w/o ability modifiers):

BAB +18 (4 iterative attacks going into epic);
Saves +12 +13 +9 +ability scores +divine grace;
HP 3d6+14d10+3d8+Con;

The character is human. 8 feats by level 20, plus 5 additional fighter
feats (2 from Divine Champ), for a total of 13. Mystic Wanderer casting
goes into Holy Liberator, enabling you to cast Holy Sword. Rogue level
skill points go towards the requirements for HL and Mystic Wanderer. HL5 is
for Celestial Companion, which scales with Character level, not class
level. For the moment, I will assume Cuiraecen`s FW is greatsword.

With the standard 25 point buy, let`s say we have these stats:

S 13 D 10 C 12 I 10 W 14 Ch 14

All stat boosts going into charisma (the odd str stat is for power attack,
as well as increasing the benefit from bull`s str slightly). The 12 could
go on Dex, Con, or Int, as you prefer.

This character is adding Charisma to all saves, AC, and damage (with divine
might). The only required feats for this concept are Iron Will, WF:
Greatsword, Power Attack, and Divine Might, none of which are "crappy"
feats. That still leaves 9 feats open to play with, which would probably go
to buy things like WF: Greatsword, Cleave, and Improved Crit: GS. Extra
turning might not be a bad idea either (but probably better to drop 2
levels of MW and take Sacred Exorcist2 instead, although might be a stretch
RP-wise). Leadership would be a great choice too, yet another synergy with
your high Charisma score. There has been some discussion of stacking
Celestial Companion with Leadership to get a super-cohort; not sure exactly
how this would work, it depends on DM interpretation.

So with a Charisma of 19 (no items being counted) you have a modifier of
+4. That gets you 7 turn attempts a day. Assuming you have a cloak +6
(enhancement), silk shirt of command (+4 circumstance bonus to Cha, it`s in
DotF), and +5 from tomes (inherent), that number could be as high as 34.
This is easy for a level 20 character under the normal rules; in BR there
will be less treasure, so I will assume he has nothing at all, so still a
cha of 19. Plus there is the possibility of an Anduiras (most common in
Anuire) line having Minor-Heightened Ability: Charisma. Under a point buy
you`d definitely pick it.

So

Smite Infidel 1/day (+cha to hit; +5 damage)
Smite Evil 1/day (+cha to hit; +5 damage)
Divine Might 7/day (+cha to damage; lasts cha in rounds)
Divine Wrath 1/day (+3 to att/dam/saves, DR 5/--; lasts cha in rounds)

..if you combined that all into 1 attack: +11 to hit, +17 to damage. gg thx
for playing Jaison Raenech! This doesn`t count additional bonuses derived
from Strength or other feats, or sneak attack.

You also have 5 levels of lay on hands, so under a 19 cha, that`s 20 points
of healing.

Don`t forget Cha mod to AC and Saves. And you can cast Holy Sword. And you
still have 9 feats open.

And this character isn`t even fully minmaxed. Sacred Exorcist levels would
probably improve the build, as would using CG Paladin instead of HL (which
is legal under the BR3e rules as they stand right now, for Cuiraecen).
Since you are human you could probably include a ranger level somewhere in
the build too, for the free virtual feats for added versatility. TWF works
well with SA and bonus damage from Divine Might.

Now just imagine if bloodline powers all depended on Charisma on top of
this... and you don`t think that would be overpowered?

>And as for iaijitsu master... why even bring it up when monk, a core
class, is such an issue for people? Plus, that also requires you to
purchase ranks in a skill, and it can only be used at certain times.

Iaijutsu master was just a general example that doesn`t apply to
Birthright.. I was just trying to point out the large number of PrCs that
derive combat benefits from Charisma.

>Divine might is a feat... and clerics and paladins, the primary characters
who would take such a feat, do not have any bonus feats, so they have to
spend one of their six level-based feats on it. Then, they have to use up a
limited daily-use ability to activate the power.

Divine might is insanely powerful, and easily worth it for any character
that has turn undead and at least a 14 charisma.

>As for the saving throw bonus... a few classes gain it, and again... it`s
a class feature. There are other levels in most of those classes where they
gain no additional benefit. Also, a good deal of those classes heavily rely
on a different ability score (like Paladins, who rely on Wisdom for
spellcasting and Strength for their combat ability).

Paladins actually don`t need Str as much, mostly because of Divine Might.

>And spellcasting... how making the primary ability Charisma make it
overpowered? Yeah, sorcerers use Charisma for spells, but have no
Charisma-based skills. Why isn`t Intelligence as a spellcasting ability
score overpowered... after all, a high Intelligence also gives wizards more
skill points.

By itself, Charisma for spellcasting is not overpowered by any means.

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[Shade]

>I`m currently playing a Fighter whose lowest score is strength and highest
>score is charisma.
>
>Its all about Character Concepts, not Min-Maxing fun.
>
>-Anakin Miller

Character concepts are the whole point of minmaxing...the two are not
mutually exclusive by any means.

Your fighter probably has the concept of "I want to be the best general in
the land" or somesuch, and you`ve minmaxed him to do precisely that. That
would be my guess, at least.

But I`m getting sidetracked.

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[AnakinMiller]

> >I`m currently playing a Fighter whose lowest score is strength and
highest
> >score is charisma.
> >
> >Its all about Character Concepts, not Min-Maxing fun.
> >
> >-Anakin Miller
>
> Character concepts are the whole point of minmaxing...the two are not
> mutually exclusive by any means.
>
> Your fighter probably has the concept of "I want to be the best general in
> the land" or somesuch, and you`ve minmaxed him to do precisely that. That
> would be my guess, at least.

Actually the concept is the loud mouth who talks the talk but can`t back it
up by walking the walk. The character is overconfident and is constantly
getting the hell beat out of him when ever the party hits the local bars.
This character is in a non-BR campaign, but I wanted to show it as an
example that some of us actually build characters that fit a non min-maxed
design.

The character in question gets involved in the more fights, both vs monsters
and vs. roudy bar patrons, than any other character in our group, but
statistally he is the worst at dealing damage and winning these fights.

But this is getting side tracked.

My main point is that not all people will play characters that fit into your
neat min-maxed, all ready mapped out to 20th level, diagrams.

-Anakin Miller
-------------------------
"What was sundered, shall be remade.
What was stolen, shall be avenged. "
- Engraved on the Crown of Diemed

>
> But I`m getting sidetracked.
>
>
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