Feedback

[Mourn]

Glancing through the document, I found a few things I wanted to comment on.

Human "Subraces" - I think an approach similar to WoT should be taken with the human subraces. They should have the same human traits as the PHB (1 extra feet, 4 extra skills +1 per level, any favored class), then refine them further for each subrace by having Background Feats and favored skills. Thus, a Vos would choose different Background feats and get a different favored skill choice than a Brecht.

For example:

Brecht - Background Feats (Disciplined, Mercantile Background, Sea Legs, Silver Palm, Smooth Talk), Background Skills (Intuit Direction, Profession (sailor), Swim, Use Rope), Automatic Languages (Low Brecht), Bonus Languages (High Brecht, etc.).

Thus a Brecht human would have select one of those feats as his bonus feat, and use his bonus skill points towards one of those four skills (which all become class skills for the character, no matter what class he is).

This helps preserve the flavor of different cultures, while staying as close to the core rules as possible.

Dwarves - The half damage from bludgeoning should be changed to "DR 5/piercing or slashing," especially if this will be updated for 3.5.

Elves - Too powerful without being an ECL +1, in my opinion. Their ability scores balance out, since a -2 Str/-2 Con definitely balances out a +2 Dex/+2 Cha. They have all the elven abilities and more, and nothing to really balance it (can't be lawful, but that's not a huge loss). Woodland Stride? Timeless? ANY arcane class? That's a bit overpowered. Also the low-light vision should be changed... low-light vision should effectively double (or triple) how far you can see in low light... it shouldn't have a set distance (if a human can see 70 feet in low-light, then an elf's low-light vision of 60 feet is worthless).

Halflings - The spell-like abilities should be eyed similar to the PHB gnome's. Once per day, a halfling with a Wisdom of 11 or higher can cast detect evil, detect magic, and detect undead as a sorcerer of the halfling's character level.

Monk - Maybe the monk should be modified. A fighter going unarmed sucks. There is no way any kind of pugilist can do well without levels of monk (since you still do subdual damage without monk). Take out some of the supernatural abilities and replace them with bonus feats and such, allowing monks (scrappers, pugilists, whatever) to exist, but without having to have the "asian" flavor.

Magician/Sorcerer - Just a thought, but I did this in a BR game I ran. I used the sorcerer to represent the magician class and simply changed the spell list to more accurately reflect the magician (mainly illusion and enchantment spells), and it worked pretty well.

Bloodlines - The bloodline system still strikes me as clunky, and scions and non-scions aren't particularly balanced in the system. Why be a commoner when you can get some bloodline abilities for free? The requirement for a character to select Feats and such to get a bloodline, and improve it, is balanced.

That's all my feedback for now.

[CMonkey]

A different 2p:

Human Subraces: I was fine with it, the other races seem a bit more buff than the PHB ones and the sub-races give the humans a little bit of balance back.

Dwarves: I like the 1/2 damage thing simply for its shock value.

Elves: The Low-light vision thing does seem wrong, nowhere else do you get a range on low light vision. Also the favoured class is too open, bite the bullet and pick one ;) ! Other than that I think they're fine.

Halfling: A subtle change, but yes.

Monk: Tough. A pugilist should beat an unarmed numpty but should be beaten by an armed knight. Otherwise why bother inventing swords? (Retorical, you're not going to change my mind.)

Sorcerer/Magician: I wouldn't be too sad to see the Sorcerer dropped from BR despite preferring it in "vanilla" D&D to the wizard.

Bloodlines: The system is very hard to understand, and does seem clunky, but it does cost you the points from your attributes at char gen, it's not free.

CM.

[Mourn]

Originally posted by CMonkey
Human Subraces: I was fine with it, the other races seem a bit more buff than the PHB ones and the sub-races give the humans a little bit of balance back.


But it doesn't balance out. If you merely buff up each of the races, then the races don't balance against encounters, monsters, and other unmodified creatures.



Dwarves: I like the 1/2 damage thing simply for its shock value.


Shock value? That's a pretty lame reason, I must say. The mechanics should be balanced and consistent. A giant with a greatclub dealing 26 points of damage would only deal 13, whereas a halfling with a club dealing 4 points of damage would deal 2. There is no balance there. It neuters stronger creatures, while making only minimal changes to a weak creature's damage. That is not balanced.



Elves: The Low-light vision thing does seem wrong, nowhere else do you get a range on low light vision. Also the favoured class is too open, bite the bullet and pick one ;) ! Other than that I think they're fine.


Fine? Immortal? Woodland Stride? NOTHING to balance these? They are not fine. Two POWERFUL abilities (I gain a point of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma for free, and lose nothing) adding on to the normal elf stats (with the new ability modifiers) make this race too powerful. I should be an ECL+1.



Halfling: A subtle change, but yes.


It might require an ECL adjustment, however. Giving a race access to three 1st-level spell-like abilities does tip the scales.



Monk: Tough. A pugilist should beat an unarmed numpty but should be beaten by an armed knight. Otherwise why bother inventing swords? (Retorical, you're not going to change my mind.)


Ever seen a knight in full armor fighting an unarmored opponent trained in martial arts? You knock the knight on his back and the fight is over... in reality, he wouldn't be able to get up.



Bloodlines: The system is very hard to understand, and does seem clunky, but it does cost you the points from your attributes at char gen, it's not free.


Let's take a look at this. All abilities start at 8, which means you don't have to spend a single point increasing your Bloodline if you want to be a scion. You merely choose to be a scion, and you have a Bloodline of 8. Then you can use your points on the other six ability scores, and the Bloodline has cost you NOTHING. However, with a little bloodtheft, you can increase that low score and gain some blood abilities.

Thus, you can get something for free, while there is nothing to balance it against a non-blooded character. As the blooded character gains more Bloodline strength, his ECL goes up, and he gains new abilities, while the commoner doesn't. Thus, this system for bloodline will unbalance a party consisting of commoners and scions.

[Edit: As for my using 10 + 1/2 scion's HD + Bld modifier, it's just following the standard rule for DCs set on page 94 of the DMG. Monster Abilities: 10 + 1/2 hit dice + Ability Modifier. This balances out as levels increase, as well.]

[CMonkey]

Ooo, I wasn't going to start arguing but you've hit a pet peeve:

Ever seen a knight in full armor fighting an unarmored opponent trained in martial arts? You knock the knight on his back and the fight is over... in reality, he wouldn't be able to get up.

In reality you knock a knight on his back, he rolls to his feet. In poorly researched cinema, he can't get up.

Plus no, I haven't ever seen a "knight in full armor fighting an unarmored opponent trained in martial arts", can you guess why? Hmm?

CM.

[Caine]

Have to disagree with the turtle-knight thing.

Those armours are heavy, but you do learn to move in them. Or die.
Only the heaviest armours really hamper your movement in the short term
and those were designed for mounted combat.

Just try to sweep the legs from a charging warhorse with gear & knight attached.

Chainmail & Half Plate which are the more common Lordly armours of High to late
middle age tech (see Normans & the Anglo/French culture that followed from them,
crusaders & such).

Don't forget warrior lords, the only guys who are going to be walking around in plate,
train from childhood to wear these things.

My only quibble with the way armour works in D&D (this includes BR) is the cost. No way could a common merchant or craftsperson afford the assets to actually use a suit of full plate. It'd be like you or me investing in a house then carrying it around to have it damaged (please allow the allegory(?) it isn't precise but conveys a sense of scale)

Basically, using normal treasure rules, adventurers are stinking rich :P

To get to the actual point. BR Races.
I quite like what's been done.

It's a question of taste whether you give human sub-types a small plethora of modifiers or flavour their existing advantage of a bonus feat & 4 skill points. Either works & it's mainly up to you + players to pick what you like.

Elves/ +1 ecl is tempting but remember those stat bonuses cancel out, immortality is only so useful in a BR game (how many of us have characters with more than 20 years of game time & how many aging attacks are their?), woodland stride is neat as is low-light, and the hightened senses(good call on the range limit) but again how does it way up to a bonus feat & four skill points.
Definately more boosts than a standard D&D elf. Enough to penalize them a level?

Dwarves/ A DR is probably better than halving the damage. Why make them so strong against big opponents & hardly any better against weak ones.

Halflings/ Hardly looked at them but I'd just compare to Gnomes & see how big the difference really is. From most of what I noticed the really cool Halfling abilities from BR cost feats...

And then the gods.
Or in this case, their remains.
I do tend to just give anyone who wants to play a non-blooded an extra level. The means of gaining a bloodline are few and hard to achieve. this would just suggest adding an ECL of +1 to all bloodline templates but I don't handle it that way. Just give the commoners an xp head start, and as the levels progress those who increase their bloodlines will get an ECL anyway.
After all a large part of the game is to play people touched by the power of the gods in a really neat setting.
The extra stat does cost you. I always use a points buy system, so you can keep it low & hope to blood thieve (but don't count on surviving long if you become known for your little feeding habit) or you can buy it up at character gen and be weaker across the board.

End of blurb. Thanks for reading.
([_]

[ConjurerDragon]

Mourn wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1392
>
> Mourn wrote:
>

>Elves: The Low-light vision thing does seem wrong, nowhere else do you get a range on low light vision. Also the favoured class is too open, bite the bullet and pick one ;) ! Other than that I think they`re fine.
>
>
>Fine? Immortal? Woodland Stride? NOTHING to balance these? They are not fine. Two POWERFUL abilities (I gain a point of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma for free, and lose nothing) adding on to the normal elf stats (with the new ability modifiers) make this race too powerful. I should be an ECL+1.
>
Mmmh. If I read the text on p.16 of the draft 0.0 I understand they do
not suffer the ravages - but also do not gain the benefits:
"An adult elf´s age has NO effect on her physical OR MENTAL ability scores."

That means to me that they do not suffer the penalty to STR, DEX and
CON, but do not gain the bonus to INT and WIS for old age, venerable and
so on...
bye
Michael Romes

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "CMonkey" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 6:23 AM


> In reality you knock a knight on his back, he rolls to his feet.
> In poorly researched cinema, he can`t get up.

Sure, and according to numerous historical accounts left to us, that took a
small mob of a two to three dozen opponants. Fewer if they were
professional soldiers armed with pikes, or other anti-cavalry weapons.
Accounts of armored men comming into combat with unarmered men, also suggest
that armor is easily a force multiplier of two to five. Armored men get up
just fine, and they can tumble as well. Seen both. Knightly training
included an obstacle course of climbs, rolls, leaps, and other such things.
Much easier in plate, than in chain. Exhausted knights might find it
difficult to get up, but they were beatened before they were knocked down.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by Caine
Have to disagree with the turtle-knight thing.


Point conceded to all concerned.



It's a question of taste whether you give human sub-types a small plethora of modifiers or flavour their existing advantage of a bonus feat & 4 skill points. Either works & it's mainly up to you + players to pick what you like.


That's true, but why deviate from the core rules so much? The core rules grant humans a bonus feat, bonus skills and any favored class. Why not just use those rules, and refine them (like WoT does) but still use those same rules.



Elves/ +1 ecl is tempting but remember those stat bonuses cancel out, immortality is only so useful in a BR game (how many of us have characters with more than 20 years of game time & how many aging attacks are their?), woodland stride is neat as is low-light, and the hightened senses(good call on the range limit) but again how does it way up to a bonus feat & four skill points.
Definately more boosts than a standard D&D elf. Enough to penalize them a level?


I did note that the stat bonuses cancelled each other out. Immortality is only so useful, I realize that as well, and I didn't notice that they do not gain the benefits of age. Forever young, forever unchanging. That fits very well.

However, I made a slight mistake when I said they have Woodland Stride.

Woodland Stride: Starting at 2nd level, a druid may move through natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain at her normal speed and without suffering damage or other impairment.

That's the druid ability. A 2nd-level ability, and it only functions in the woods. Here's the elf ability.

Nature Stride: Elves may move through natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, heavy snow, soft sand, a treacherous mountain or similar natural terrain at their normal movement rate and without suffering damage or penalty.

So, an elf can walk through the desert, snow, swamp, hills, mountains, and all manner of terrain without penalty, while a 2nd-level druid can only do this in the forest. They gain something stronger than a 2nd-level class ability, and you don't think that's unbalanced?

As for low-light vision, it should not have a set range like that. If light allows for a human to see 70 feet, then the elf's low-light vision, which has a range of 60 feet, is worthless.



Dwarves/ A DR is probably better than halving the damage. Why make them so strong against big opponents & hardly any better against weak ones.


Exactly.



Halflings/ Hardly looked at them but I'd just compare to Gnomes & see how big the difference really is. From most of what I noticed the really cool Halfling abilities from BR cost feats...


BR halflings have the same traits has PHB halflings and then some. I have no problem having feat chains to gain racial abilities (which I think is cool, some people develop it, some don't), but granting them the ability to detect evil, undead and magic all at the same time with a Search check is unbalanced. They gain three 1st-level spell-like abilities, at will. This requires an ECL adjustment.



I do tend to just give anyone who wants to play a non-blooded an extra level. The means of gaining a bloodline are few and hard to achieve. this would just suggest adding an ECL of +1 to all bloodline templates but I don't handle it that way. Just give the commoners an xp head start, and as the levels progress those who increase their bloodlines will get an ECL anyway.


Yes, but this is supposed to be for official rules. There has to be a balance to the system, or it loses its professional credibility. The rules should provide for all of this without a DM having to make up his own way to handle it. The reason this document even exists is because DMs don't want to do all the work themselves... but they shouldn't have to work with broken mechanics, especially ones that contradict core rules and have serious balance issues.



After all a large part of the game is to play people touched by the power of the gods in a really neat setting.
The extra stat does cost you. I always use a points buy system, so you can keep it low & hope to blood thieve (but don't count on surviving long if you become known for your little feeding habit) or you can buy it up at character gen and be weaker across the board.


How does it cost you? Say I say "I wanna be a scion, but I'll leave my score at 8 for now and not increase it." So, I have the same stats as everyone else, plus some. And as for bloodtheft... what kind of scion would not hide the fact that they commit bloodtheft? The Gorgon, perhaps, but I don't see very many PC scions running around, committing bloodtheft on other scions in front of many witnesses... plus, anyone who is the kind of person to commit bloodtheft on a regular basis would have little trouble getting rid of any witnesses.

[irdeggman]

As currently written in Chapt 2 in order to gain a minor blood ability a scion would require a blood ability score of 12 not 8, so the player would not gain it for free in a point buy system.

[Mourn]

Originally posted by irdeggman
As currently written in Chapt 2 in order to gain a minor blood ability a scion would require a blood ability score of 12 not 8, so the player would not gain it for free in a point buy system.

Read my post. I never said a scion gained an ability at a score of 8. What I said is that by choosing to become a scion, you can gain something (a tainted bloodline) for free, whereas commoners have nothing to balance that in the system.

So, by choosing to be a scion (and gaining a score of 8), I can become a wizard or sorcerer, since I have a bloodline. I gain access to a class that a commoner doesn't have access to, by meeting a requirement that I can gain for FREE. So, I gain the ability to cast "true" magic without having to pay for it.

Then I can butcher some more scions and raise my score, gaining blood abilities with nothing to balance it against the commoner characters I interact with.

[irdeggman]

Sorry Mourn, I had misread the post.

In 2nd ed it didn't cost anything to have a bloodline. Non-blooded PCs did gain a 10% exp bonus though, so I guess it could be interpreted that it cost a scion the 10% exp bonus.

Although, using the as currently written BRCS rules, even by committing bloodtheft the scion would never gain a major blood ability without also gaining the +1 ECL that accompanies the major scion template - he would not however gain the bonus to his blood ability score that characters receive at character creation for taking the template (and accompanying ECL). And there is the bonus hitpoints (see Chapter 8) that go with the ECL'd scion templates and the extra starting cash (if the variant listed is used) available for a starting scion to purchase items (including magical ones).

Also that if a character plays as an elf or half-elf he could also be a wizard without a bloodline, just not be able to cast realm spells. So if a player really wanted to min-max then he could be an elf or half-elf use the dice roll default method and place the highest scores in Int, etc. with his lowest roll in the 7th category, choose not to be blooeded (thus dropping that last ability score) and still be relatively powerful wizard. Now there are a lot of issues with this, most of them role-playing oriented - as in most humans would never trust the character.:)

[Mourn]

Originally posted by irdeggman
Sorry Mourn, I had misread the post.


That's fine.. I do it myself.



In 2nd ed it didn't cost anything to have a bloodline. Non-blooded PCs did gain a 10% exp bonus though, so I guess it could be interpreted that it cost a scion the 10% exp bonus.


XP penalties are not always the best route to go. That's why I proposed it as a feat that can be taken at 1st-level. It grants you a Bloodline score and a bloodline derivation. A commoner would spend this feat on something else, and both characters would be balanced with each other.


Although, using the as currently written BRCS rules, even by committing bloodtheft the scion would never gain a major blood ability without also gaining the +1 ECL that accompanies the major scion template - he would not however gain the bonus to his blood ability score that characters receive at character creation for taking the template (and accompanying ECL). And there is the bonus hitpoints (see Chapter 8) that go with the ECL'd scion templates and the extra starting cash (if the variant listed is used) available for a starting scion to purchase items (including magical ones).

Well, in the current BRCS rules, the Bloodline ability score and the bloodline strength don't correspond very well. According to those rules, I could have a very low Bloodline score but still be of a great bloodline... that doesn't really make sense. A higher Bloodline score should signify a more powerful bloodline.

The relationship between the two is severely broken. For example, say I am a scion of a minor bloodline. According to the rules, I have no level adjustment (ECL +0), and I can only gain minor blood abilities, even if my score qualifies me for otherwise. Now, let's say I somehow attain a Bloodline score of 45 (+17, 5/4/4, 90/225 RP). This means that I now have 13 minor abilities from my bloodline, granting me a slew of powers WITHOUT any sort of balance. I am still, technically, an ECL of my normal character level, but I am definitely more powerful than that. Also, I have a higher bloodline score than most scions walking this planet, but they are considered to be of a stronger bloodline. That just makes no sense whatsoever.

The system seems like it made it half-assed move towards 3rd edition, but stopped short, keeping so many 2nd edition holdovers that it's broken.



Also that if a character plays as an elf or half-elf he could also be a wizard without a bloodline, just not be able to cast realm spells. So if a player really wanted to min-max then he could be an elf or half-elf use the dice roll default method and place the highest scores in Int, etc. with his lowest roll in the 7th category, choose not to be blooeded (thus dropping that last ability score) and still be relatively powerful wizard. Now there are a lot of issues with this, most of them role-playing oriented - as in most humans would never trust the character.:)

This appears to be a holdover from 2nd edition to me. I think the classes should be used as they are in the PHB and prestige classes should be used to help fill in the gaps. You want to be a wizard? Be a wizard, study your magic, and learn it. You want to cast realm spells? Qualify for the Realm Caster PrC, which requires a bloodline to get into it. That way, you don't have strange rules and requirements for core classes, but still retain the abilities and the flavor.

If the character in this example is not a scion, why would he roll 7 ability scores? If you don't have a Bloodline score, you wouldn't even generate a 7th score for it. Any player that generates 7 scores then drops the lowest is just powergaming and should be taken out into a parking lot and summarily beaten within an inch of their life.

Also, the Realm rules seem to be a bit clunky and sluggish, but I can't really think of a better way to do it at present. The Realm Rules presented in Dragon not too long ago seemed to be a good step, but still seemed to take up too much time. Realms and Holdings should have levels, skill points, "realm feats" and such, to show progression and to balance. Obviously, a DM would not want to send his players with their level 5 Realm up against a character with a level 20 Realm. I'm trying to work these things out, but it's slow going.

[ConjurerDragon]

Mourn wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1392
>XP penalties are not always the best route to go. That`s why I proposed it as a feat that can be taken at 1st-level. It grants you a Bloodline score and a bloodline derivation. A commoner would spend this feat on something else, and both characters would be balanced with each other.
>
And that is what the old 3E Travis Doom conversion did. Give a bonus
feat which commoners can spend on what they like and blooded scions on
getting a bloodline. I found this good as well.

>Well, in the current BRCS rules, the Bloodline ability score and the bloodline strength don`t correspond very well. According to those rules, I could have a very low Bloodline score but still be of a great bloodline... that doesn`t really make sense. A higher Bloodline score should signify a more powerful bloodline.
>
A bastard son of Prince Avan with a common wife would have a great
bloodline, but only halve the value.
If to raise your bloodline from minor to major like described in the old
2E Book of Regency is something possible only once in a generation
unless under the most unusual circumstances, then the opposite should be
true as well. Even by losing some points of bloodline strenght one
should not automatically lose the great bloodline or the template, nor
should a minor bloodline simply by gaining a few points of bloodline
strenght advance to a major in my opinion. It needs more to step to
another level of blood.

>The relationship between the two is severely broken. For example, say I am a scion of a minor bloodline. According to the rules, I have no level adjustment (ECL +0), and I can only gain minor blood abilities, even if my score qualifies me for otherwise. Now, let`s say I somehow attain a Bloodline score of 45 (+17, 5/4/4, 90/225 RP). This means that I now have 13 minor abilities from my bloodline, granting me a slew of powers WITHOUT any sort of balance. I am still, technically, an ECL of my normal character level, but I am definitely more powerful than that. Also, I have a higher bloodline score than most scions walking this planet, but they are considered to be of a stronger bloodline. That just makes no sense whatsoever.
>
>The system seems like it made it half-assed move towards 3rd edition, but stopped short, keeping so many 2nd edition holdovers that it`s broken.
>
The system is not as unlikely as your example. If you create a scion
with a minor bloodline you will have to run this character for decades
before he will ever be able to raise his bloodline to 45 without
dropping a nuclear bomb on Anuire and killing all blooded scions there.
And IF a character really manages to work his way up and spend time and
resources to gain that bloodline up so high - then he has earned it. The
template penalizes as I understand those players, who receive their
bloodline from the start and not those that work their way up - however
in most PBEMS you will never be able to do this as most PBEMS will a)
not last that long B) concentrate more on the domain level with less
bloodtheft possibilities

>This appears to be a holdover from 2nd edition to me. I think the classes should be used as they are in the PHB and prestige classes should be used to help fill in the gaps. You want to be a wizard? Be a wizard, study your magic, and learn it. You want to cast realm spells? Qualify for the Realm Caster PrC, which requires a bloodline to get into it. That way, you don`t have strange rules and requirements for core classes, but still retain the abilities and the flavor.
>
How can you retain the flavour of a rare magic setting if everyone can
be wizard? Birthright had severe restrictions on the number of arcane
spellcasters by having them have either a bloodline or be an
elf/half-elf (Wizard) or have high ability scores (Magician).

>If the character in this example is not a scion, why would he roll 7 ability scores? If you don`t have a Bloodline score, you wouldn`t even generate a 7th score for it. Any player that generates 7 scores then drops the lowest is just powergaming and should be taken out into a parking lot and summarily beaten within an inch of their life.
>
? As far as I understand the advantage of the unblooded player is to be
able to use the good 6 numbers he has thrown on his ability scores, as
he has no bloodline to care about. This is not powergaming, but the
advantage for unblooded players and the disadvantage for blooded - as
long as you are rolling dice and not using the point-buy-system.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Mourn]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon
And that is what the old 3E Travis Doom conversion did. Give a bonus
feat which commoners can spend on what they like and blooded scions on
getting a bloodline. I found this good as well.


Perhaps, instead of just picking "commoner" and "scion" at character creation, you select your caste. This grants you a bonus feat, maybe some bonus skills. So, you could have a Mercantile caste, a Martial caste, a Scion caste, Unblooded Nobility, etc., with traits to balance each other out.


A bastard son of Prince Avan with a common wife would have a great
bloodline, but only halve the value.
If to raise your bloodline from minor to major like described in the old
2E Book of Regency is something possible only once in a generation
unless under the most unusual circumstances, then the opposite should be
true as well. Even by losing some points of bloodline strenght one
should not automatically lose the great bloodline or the template, nor
should a minor bloodline simply by gaining a few points of bloodline
strenght advance to a major in my opinion. It needs more to step to
another level of blood.


Then there's little point to have the Bloodline ability score, since it has no direct bearing on how strong your blood is (unlike the other ability scores, which have a direct bearing on how strong, dexterous, and intelligent you are).

All I see here is a rule that makes no sense. Two supposedly "connected" systems that do not really work together. If I have a strong bloodline, it should be shown by my high Bloodline score. If I have a weak bloodline, it should be shown by a low Bloodline score. It's logical.


The system is not as unlikely as your example. If you create a scion
with a minor bloodline you will have to run this character for decades
before he will ever be able to raise his bloodline to 45 without
dropping a nuclear bomb on Anuire and killing all blooded scions there.
And IF a character really manages to work his way up and spend time and
resources to gain that bloodline up so high - then he has earned it. The
template penalizes as I understand those players, who receive their
bloodline from the start and not those that work their way up - however
in most PBEMS you will never be able to do this as most PBEMS will a)
not last that long B) concentrate more on the domain level with less
bloodtheft possibilities

The playtest document states "Blooded scions have an ability score that is not possessed by non-blooded characters. This ability score determines the bloodline power of a character in much the same way that their Strength ability determines the character's physical strength." This is a false statement, since Bloodline score no direct bearing on how powerful your bloodline is. The templates don't work with the ability score, because I could have a Bloodline score of 6 (-3) and still be considered a member of a great bloodline. My blood, according to the description of the Bloodline ability score, is weak, but according to the game, I'm a scion of a great bloodline.

I don't play PBEMs, and most players I know don't. This isn't a document focusing on how to run PBEMs, it's a document focused on playing BR.


How can you retain the flavour of a rare magic setting if everyone can
be wizard? Birthright had severe restrictions on the number of arcane
spellcasters by having them have either a bloodline or be an
elf/half-elf (Wizard) or have high ability scores (Magician).

Well, since "true" magic depends on blood, why not make the Sorcerer the bloodline class? Either have it grant a Bloodline at 1st-level (only available to a 1st-level character), then have it require a Bloodline if you multiclass into it later.

The wizard's spell list could be revised, focusing on the magician's schools... or even make the specialty wizards even more broad, allowing for magicians and other kinds of casters within the same class.


As far as I understand the advantage of the unblooded player is to be
able to use the good 6 numbers he has thrown on his ability scores, as
he has no bloodline to care about. This is not powergaming, but the
advantage for unblooded players and the disadvantage for blooded - as
long as you are rolling dice and not using the point-buy-system.


I've yet to hear how this is a disadvantage to a scion. If a commoner has no need to generate a Bloodline score, then the player has no need to generate 7 scores. If the scion has a need to generate a bloodline score, then the player has a need to generate 7 scores. Simple as that.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Mourn

Well, since "true" magic depends on blood, why not make the Sorcerer the bloodline class? Either have it grant a Bloodline at 1st-level (only available to a 1st-level character), then have it require a Bloodline if you multiclass into it later.


The sorcerer class is a poor class for a blooded wizard. Sorcerers have a limited number of spells they can know and they don't get bonus feats to use for item creation. This is something that, IMO, really separates wizards from the rest.:)

[Mourn]

Originally posted by irdeggman
The sorcerer class is a poor class for a blooded wizard. Sorcerers have a limited number of spells they can know and they don't get bonus feats to use for item creation. This is something that, IMO, really separates wizards from the rest.:)

Of course the sorcerer is a poor class for a blooded wizard. If you're a sorcerer, and you want to be a wizard, you picked the wrong class. Sorcerers fit with the more "magic from the bloodline" idea, since they are described as having innate magic, stemming from their background or another such source. Make the requirement for the class a bloodline, and it works fine.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Mourn


The playtest document states "Blooded scions have an ability score that is not possessed by non-blooded characters. This ability score determines the bloodline power of a character in much the same way that their Strength ability determines the character's physical strength." This is a false statement, since Bloodline score no direct bearing on how powerful your bloodline is. The templates don't work with the ability score, because I could have a Bloodline score of 6 (-3) and still be considered a member of a great bloodline. My blood, according to the description of the Bloodline ability score, is weak, but according to the game, I'm a scion of a great bloodline.



Actually the absolute lowest score a scion with the great scion template could have would be a 7 (3 - minimum die roll + 4 {from template}). The templates were set up to give varying blood score modifiers - Minor +0, Major +4, Great +8 and True +12 (unavailable to starting PCs). This was chosen in an attempt to ensure (as best as can be done with any sort of random rolled system) that those with higher strength derivations have higher blood scores. The additional benefits include that the pluses yield an increased modifer (benefits the DC for saves) and more abilities. If using a point buy system then it is even easier to obatin a higher blood score.:)

[Mourn]

Originally posted by irdeggman
Actually the absolute lowest score a scion with the great scion template could have would be a 7 (3 - minimum die roll + 4 {from template}). The templates were set up to give varying blood score modifiers - Minor +0, Major +4, Great +8 and True +12 (unavailable to starting PCs). This was chosen in an attempt to ensure (as best as can be done with any sort of random rolled system) that those with higher strength derivations have higher blood scores. The additional benefits include that the pluses yield an increased modifer (benefits the DC for saves) and more abilities. If using a point buy system then it is even easier to obatin a higher blood score.:)

Well, I did mess that up, didn't I? Heh.

Well, I'll still continue my argument. Yes, the templates have a reflection of the strength derivation affecting the score, but it's not enough. The scion of a great bloodline could have a minimum of 7 (still a -2 modifier), while the scion of a minor bloodline could still have a higher bloodline score, let's say an 8. According to the template, the great bloodline should be a stronger bloodline than the minor one, but it isn't reflected in the bloodline score. What is the point of having a bloodline score to reflect the bloodline's strength, if in reality, it doesn't?

[irdeggman]

Mourn,
The 2nd ed system also could produce the same effects that you are concerned with.

Tainted (4d4)
Minor (5d6)
Major (8d6)
Great (8d8)

It was always possible, though not real likely, for a tainted bloodline to have a higher strength than a great bloodline: Tainted (16) Great (8). At least with the proposed system, the character has the option to place a higher ability score in his bloodline (hence being a better regent, etc.) and then choose a template which would increase this score thus there is an attempt to minimize the descepancies that you brought up.:)

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon

A bastard son of Prince Avan with a common wife would have a great bloodline, but only halve the value.
If to raise your bloodline from minor to major like described in the old 2E Book of Regency is something possible only once in a generation unless under the most unusual circumstances, then the opposite should be true as well. Even by losing some points of bloodline strenght one should not automatically lose the great bloodline or the template, nor should a minor bloodline simply by gaining a few points of bloodline
strenght advance to a major in my opinion. It needs more to step to another level of blood.
I agree completely with you. The bloodline system inheritement should be the same as in 2nd Edition. Any other makes no sense. Stiblings should have the same bloodline score and the same strength (but not the same abilities). The bloodline strenght MUSTN'T be weaker than the most powerful of their parents...

[irdeggman]

Ariadne,
I disagree with all siblings having the same bloodline score and strength. It would depend on the conditions of their parents at the time of their birth. An older sibling might start with a lower score because by the time his younger brother (or sister) was born their father (or mother) had done things to increase his (or her) bloodline strength (i.e., score). So the numerical value would depend on the status of the parents at birth. Templates (minor, major, great) are very unlikely to change over the span that a character could normally be a parent (unless of course they have long life as an ability and then all bets are off) so all siblings will probably have the same template as their parents. There is of course the possibility of a single different parent for two sons (like Raesene and Roele and Haelyn) in which case the "mix" of the parents at the birth of the child would determine their score, derivation and template (minor, major or great).:)

[Mourn]

Originally posted by irdeggman
The 2nd ed system also could produce the same effects that you are concerned with.

Tainted (4d4)
Minor (5d6)
Major (8d6)
Great (8d8)

It was always possible, though not real likely, for a tainted bloodline to have a higher strength than a great bloodline: Tainted (16) Great (8). At least with the proposed system, the character has the option to place a higher ability score in his bloodline (hence being a better regent, etc.) and then choose a template which would increase this score thus there is an attempt to minimize the descepancies that you brought up.:)

Which is why I do not like the 2nd edition system, and the reason I stopped playing 2nd Edition in the first place.... 2nd edition rules made little sense, and often contradicted eachother. There were often more exceptions to a rule than the rule itself! The proposed system is an artificial way to balance out the strengths, and it still fails to work.

Why keep clinging to this system when its obvious, even by your own admissions, that it is a broken system? That's just nonsense.

Here's a simple way to attach bloodline strength to the bloodline score:

0 (Commoner) - Your blood is as common as dirt.
1-9 (Tainted) - You get no beenfit from your bloodline, because your blood is so base and impure that you may as well be a commoner.
10-19 (Minor) - Where most character's ability scores fall in, this would be considered average (thus, there being a higher amount of minor scions). You gain quite a few benefits at these levels. (characters may develop an ECL+1)
20-29 (Major) - Where the bloodlines truly begin to get scary. (probably an ECL+2 or +3)
30-39 (Great) - Where gods fear to tread. (+4 to +5 ECL)
40+ (True) - Set it so that at 40, you become awnsheghlien or ehrsheghlien, depending on your bloodline derivation, alignment, and personality. (+7 or higher ECL)

A child should have the average of his parents' scores. A major scion (25) begets a son with a minor scion (15) and the son possesses a major (20) bloodline. (25 + 15 = 40 / 2 = 20).