Basic strategy question

[Shade]

One question, through my years of playing BR, has continually bothered me:

What are guilds and temples supposed to spend their vast GB income on? RP
is easily spent on back-and-forth contesting, but I don`t know what clerics
and thieves are supposed to do with their vast piles of cash.

I know in PBeMs, clerics and thieves usually raise their own armies.
However, this isn`t realistic based on the information presented in the BR
rulebooks, as the law regents are the only ones mentioned as having armies.

In your long-running campaigns, what do your temples and guilds do with all
their money?

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[irdeggman]

They "loan" it to the lawholders and realm regents for "favors" to be named later.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1381
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> They "loan" it to the lawholders and realm regents for "favors" to be named later.
>
e. g. Fugger and Maximilian, right?
bye
Michael Romes

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[ConjurerDragon]

Lord Shade wrote:

>One question, through my years of playing BR, has continually bothered me:
>
>What are guilds and temples supposed to spend their vast GB income on? RP
>is easily spent on back-and-forth contesting, but I don`t know what clerics
>and thieves are supposed to do with their vast piles of cash.
>
>I know in PBeMs, clerics and thieves usually raise their own armies.
>However, this isn`t realistic based on the information presented in the BR
>rulebooks, as the law regents are the only ones mentioned as having armies.
>
>In your long-running campaigns, what do your temples and guilds do with all
>their money?
>
Loans to mighty rulers, to get them into your debt and later call in a
favour.
Hiring mercenary units to supplement the army of the landed regent.
Building Ships. Fortifying holdings, best done together with the landed
regent and the cooperative fortification rule from the Book of Regency.
Spend it on Espionage to ensure success (no thief would want to be
revealed as responsible, and certainly not to fail some covert action).

And of course: Pay Law Claims.
Spend money for role-playing purposes: Giving to the poor, cherity, in
case of Guilder Kalien: new hats, nobles outfits...
Masterwork tools, weapons and armour as the best that money can buy
without the need of some unreliable wizard.
Buy the wizard a fine library and he will cast spells for you later...

Pay TAXES - that is something I do not like. Not that I think there
should be no taxes. No, taxes should be what Law Claims are - however
issuing a decree as tax law is strange as the 2E Birthright rules say
that a decree can´t affect another regents property.
bye
Michael Romes

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[DanMcSorley]

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> Pay TAXES - that is something I do not like. Not that I think there
> should be no taxes. No, taxes should be what Law Claims are - however
> issuing a decree as tax law is strange as the 2E Birthright rules say
> that a decree can´t affect another regents property.

I`ve always figured the tax decrees were voluntary on the part of the
taxees. They`re generally low, 1 GB/holding or so, and the implication of
the decree is "play ball with me on this, or I`ll use law claims, which
are potentially much worse for you." In effect they just encourage the
guilders to Grant the Duke some money each turn.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[DanMcSorley]

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Michael Romes wrote:
> Pay TAXES - that is something I do not like. Not that I think there
> should be no taxes. No, taxes should be what Law Claims are - however
> issuing a decree as tax law is strange as the 2E Birthright rules say
> that a decree can´t affect another regents property.

I`ve always figured the tax decrees were voluntary on the part of the
taxees. They`re generally low, 1 GB/holding or so, and the implication of
the decree is "play ball with me on this, or I`ll use law claims, which
are potentially much worse for you." In effect they just encourage the
guilders to Grant the Duke some money each turn.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "daniel mcsorley" <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 11:34 AM


> I`ve always figured the tax decrees were voluntary on the part of
> the taxees. They`re generally low, 1 GB/holding or so, and the
> implication of the decree is "play ball with me on this, or I`ll use law
> claims, which are potentially much worse for you." In effect they
> just encourage the guilders to Grant the Duke some money each turn.

These were called "contributions" in the middle ages. The church was immune
from taxation, so their transfers to the state had to be voluntary. On the
other hand, rulers often had the right to collect the incomes of vacant
bishoprics, so you could just hold up appointments and collect incomes (law
claims) in the mean time. Likewise, towns often had charters exempting them
from direct taxation. But, since a ruler could demand forced loans (law
claims), cities often prefered to arrange a smaller gift.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

Lord Shade wrote:

> One question, through my years of playing BR, has continually bothered me:
>
> What are guilds and temples supposed to spend their vast GB income on? RP
> is easily spent on back-and-forth contesting, but I don`t know what
clerics
> and thieves are supposed to do with their vast piles of cash.

Why do these organizations exist? Their money will be spent to achive their
goals. We have (in the rules) a much clearer idea of what states do, and
what they spend their money on. The big, expensive duty of a landed ruler
is to protect the people, and that requires armies.

The purpose of temples will vary somewhat, but in general they exist to
serve their people. They maintain "armies" of people who provide religious
services, teaching, charity, and other goodies. The rules don`t require
this. I basically make templars spend half of their income in this kind of
maintenance. With the other half, they can build lavish constructs,
patronize the arts (think Cistine chapel), support military forces (more
common in some temples than others), and make magic items. How many
peasants tithing some coppers would it take to produce one potion of cure
light wounds? Quite a lot. Flaming swords +2 (a favorite of Laerme) are
obviously a huge investment.

Guilds. They exist to make their owners and investors rich. Off the top, I
take 10% as dividends, or other withdrawls of resorces by investors and
owners. I take another 10% as graft and corruption by lower and mid-level
operatives. Then I double court costs. Guilders need to build and maintain
a trading network, and that means ships or caravans. I don`t allow a
guilder to just fiat a trade route into existence, first they need to build
the boats or wagons, and then staff them. Then they can start trading.
Michael Romes has already mentioned investing in underhanded realm actions,
and that is certainly true. Some may also maintain small numbers of troops,
usually scouts or irregulars.

Wizards have a much easier cash situation. They have an income, I assume,
but its totally consumed by maintaining the wizard`s operations. So, no net
realm income.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Shade]

At 01:06 PM 2/25/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>Lord Shade wrote:
>
>> One question, through my years of playing BR, has continually bothered me:
>>
>> What are guilds and temples supposed to spend their vast GB income on? RP
>> is easily spent on back-and-forth contesting, but I don`t know what
>clerics
>> and thieves are supposed to do with their vast piles of cash.
>
>Why do these organizations exist? Their money will be spent to achive their
>goals. We have (in the rules) a much clearer idea of what states do, and
>what they spend their money on. The big, expensive duty of a landed ruler
>is to protect the people, and that requires armies.
>
>The purpose of temples will vary somewhat, but in general they exist to
>serve their people. They maintain "armies" of people who provide religious
>services, teaching, charity, and other goodies. The rules don`t require
>this. I basically make templars spend half of their income in this kind of
>maintenance.

Shouldn`t this be counted in domain maintenance?

And a second question - what do temples get for spending half their income
on services? At least armies have a use in domain play; you can use them to
attack or defend, and if you have no enemies, you can disband all armies
and save some cash. In your game what does a temple get for spending 50% of
his income on "armies" of people as you put it? (or lose for not having it)

With the other half, they can build lavish constructs,
>patronize the arts (think Cistine chapel), support military forces (more
>common in some temples than others), and make magic items. How many
>peasants tithing some coppers would it take to produce one potion of cure
>light wounds? Quite a lot. Flaming swords +2 (a favorite of Laerme) are
>obviously a huge investment.

True, but how often do these temples make magic items? I am not trying to
rebut your points, I am just trying to get a clearer understanding of how
this works over time. I`d think if you are sinking 10gb every season into
making flaming swords, pretty soon they will be quite plentiful. btw, what
benefit do you get from building lavish constructs? Or is it just gold
thrown down the drain?

>Guilds. They exist to make their owners and investors rich. Off the top, I
>take 10% as dividends, or other withdrawls of resorces by investors and
>owners. I take another 10% as graft and corruption by lower and mid-level
>operatives. Then I double court costs. Guilders need to build and maintain
>a trading network, and that means ships or caravans. I don`t allow a
>guilder to just fiat a trade route into existence, first they need to build
>the boats or wagons, and then staff them. Then they can start trading.
>Michael Romes has already mentioned investing in underhanded realm actions,
>and that is certainly true. Some may also maintain small numbers of troops,
>usually scouts or irregulars.

Ok, what are your rules for building trade routes? I have found this to be
a big problem in PBeM.

So basically you just flat out deduct 20% from all guild income as your
solution, but you do give a justification.

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 7:51 PM

> Shouldn`t this be counted in domain maintenance?

I do put the cost on the maintenance section of my domain form.

> And a second question - what do temples get for spending half their income
> on services? At least armies have a use in domain play; you can use them
to
> attack or defend, and if you have no enemies, you can disband all armies
> and save some cash. In your game what does a temple get for spending 50%
of
> his income on "armies" of people as you put it? (or lose for not having
it)

In England, where the best records of population survive, one person in
seventy was a member of the clergy, and they lived better than the peasants
who paid for their existance. The lowest ordained person is most probably
compatable to a scribe in terms of income (3 sp/day) it would take 30
laborers to support him through tithes. Temples have other costs besides
simply manpower, and while some temple contributors tithe more than the
laborer, some clerics are given food, materials, housing, and pay greater
than the lowest ordained member of the temple. So if 70 people are served
by one cleric, and roughly half of their tithes can be explained by the
maintenance of clergy, where does the other half go? Well some to other
costs of the temple, but also most of that to the temple headquarters to
advance the temple as a whole from central direction on high.

Consider:
Avanil has 167,000 residents. It is defended by 25 units, or 25x200 hit
dice of military power. That`s at most 5000 soldiers, though I would put
the number closer to 4000. Of course Avanil could raise more defenders if
needed (though not by much using historical limits). The temples in the
realm must maintain 2386 clergy, who cost about as much as the soldiers do
in basic maintenance. Of course the clergy dwell and perform their labors
in less humble surroundings, and these temples themselves must be
maintained.

The local bishop was typlically less well off than the lord of the same
region who had a similar amount of authority and regional significance.
Much less of the wealth of the church worked its way up from the operations
of the church than the local lords collected from taxation. In part this is
because taxes were collected at various levels (local lords, higher lords,
the soveriegn) while nearly all church income was local and a proportion
sent up.

The church gets a close and intimate connection with the people, provinding
education, meaning, ritual, and preaching giving the tempels unmatched
ideological power over the people. One of the benefits of this belief
structure is the ability to cast realm spells, something no other social
power can do. Such magic is located at the temple, not at the market,
fortress, or courthouse. The temple also gets free agitate actions every
season. As this mechanism demonstrates, the people will side with the
temple in any conflict with another regent.

> True, but how often do these temples make magic items? I am not trying to
> rebut your points, I am just trying to get a clearer understanding of how
> this works over time. I`d think if you are sinking 10gb every season into
> making flaming swords, pretty soon they will be quite plentiful. btw, what
> benefit do you get from building lavish constructs? Or is it just gold
> thrown down the drain?

Last point first, no lavish constructs, no one knows who you are. Without
cathedrals, there is no ceremony, no ritual, and people cling to local
religion. The same thing is true for all monumental building, whether its
corporate or statist. This is the theory underlying court costs and
diplomacy bonuses. Its also why as temple holdings grow, you don`t just
increase the number of shrines you see in 0-level holdings. 30 such shrines
are not as effective as the assortment of temples, grand temples, and great
cathedrals.

I think 90% of all magic items are created by temples. Wizards need to be
blooded. Clerics don`t. Most magic created are spell storage devices, be
they potions, runes, or tattoos. A smaller number may be wand-like.
Temples of Haelyn might have a "wand of cure light wounds" which is in fact
a sword wielded by a long dead paladin hero, known for his laying on of
hands and healing of the common people. The revered healing powers of the
champion are now said to be vested in his relic sword. The clerics touch
you with the sword, speak the hero`s name and the healing takes place.
Permenant magic items must be rare because characters of higher level are
rare in BR.

> Ok, what are your rules for building trade routes? I have found this to be
> a big problem in PBeM.

There are trade centers in each of the named regions (Heartlands, Taelshore,
Western Basin, &c). Based on roads, rivers, and established routes, it
costs a certain amount to link a holding to a trade center. The system is
based on place theory, which explains how things like markets express
themselves geographically.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ConjurerDragon]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 7:51 PM
>
...

>I think 90% of all magic items are created by temples. Wizards need to be
>blooded. Clerics don`t. Most magic created are spell storage devices, be
>they potions, runes, or tattoos. A smaller number may be wand-like.
>Temples of Haelyn might have a "wand of cure light wounds" which is in fact
>a sword wielded by a long dead paladin hero, known for his laying on of
>hands and healing of the common people. The revered healing powers of the
>champion are now said to be vested in his relic sword. The clerics touch
>you with the sword, speak the hero`s name and the healing takes place.
>Permenant magic items must be rare because characters of higher level are
>rare in BR.
>
All magic items are. Wizards are very rare due to the bloodline
requirement, but even Wizards + Magicians are much rarer than Wizards in
other 2E worlds. Core rules only demanded a 9+ INT for becoming a
wizard, while Magicians had INT 12+, DEX 12+ and WIS 14+ as requirement
as they had to work harder and be more able than the true wizard with
his bloodline.

However the number of clerics is nearly as limited: Not only were the
core 2E priests with only 9+ WIS requirement not allowed in Birthright,
but only specialty priests with ability requirements of e.g. Cuireceen:
WIS 9+, STR 12+ or Haelyn even WIS 9+, CHA 12+, STR 9+. This alone
reduced the number of possible clerics enourmously.

In addition most Players Secrets mention the raritiy of adventureres
with any level in a characterclass and that almost none surpass the 3rd
level, e.g .Talinie and Medoere.

The Book of Priestcraft gives more numbers (p. 65) and lists the people
in a temple holding in percentages, e.g. a temple holding consists of
one minor worship site (a shrine) per level, one major worship site (a
good-sized temple) per two levels and a greatworshipsite (a cathedral)
per four levels. A great worship site is mentioned to have around 20 to
50 priests and acolytes, supported by 30 men-at-arms.

These characters were broken up for priests in 50%!! 0-level, 24% Priest
1, 12% Priest 2, 6% Priest 3, 3% Priest 4, 2% Priest 5 and 1% Priest 6.

So even from the few who had fulfilled the ability requirements only 50%
were above level 0 - this would mean in 3E terms that of all priests in
a temple 50% were actually only commoners working the temples field and
perhaps living in a monastery or experts as scribes/monks.

Even in this light, would you say that 90% of all magic items are made
in temples?
bye
Michael Romes

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[geeman]

At 06:04 PM 2/26/2003 +0100, Michael Romes wrote:

>>Permenant magic items must be rare because characters of higher level are
>>rare in BR.
>
>All magic items are. Wizards are very rare due to the bloodline
>requirement, but even Wizards + Magicians are much rarer than Wizards in
>other 2E worlds. Core rules only demanded a 9+ INT for becoming a
>wizard, while Magicians had INT 12+, DEX 12+ and WIS 14+ as requirement
>as they had to work harder and be more able than the true wizard with
>his bloodline.
>
>However the number of clerics is nearly as limited: Not only were the
>core 2E priests with only 9+ WIS requirement not allowed in Birthright,
>but only specialty priests with ability requirements of e.g. Cuireceen:
>WIS 9+, STR 12+ or Haelyn even WIS 9+, CHA 12+, STR 9+. This alone
>reduced the number of possible clerics enourmously.

Personally, I never much cared for the ability score minimum requirements
for magicians (or rangers, paladins, etc.) in 2e. I don`t miss them. It
makes more sense to me to do it the way 3e did and just limit the
character`s capacity to perform in his given class rather than to preclude
any participation in a class because he has a 13 wisdom.

Even if there are more magicians in a 3e version of BR, however, I don`t
know how seriously that would impact the number of magic items there
are. Other factors seem to be more likely to increase the number of magic
items, like the elimination of the Permanency and Enchant Magic Item spells
in favor of feats, for instance.

>In addition most Players Secrets mention the raritiy of adventureres
>with any level in a characterclass and that almost none surpass the 3rd
>level, e.g .Talinie and Medoere.

Do you have a page reference for this? I don`t recall that off the top of
my head.

>The Book of Priestcraft gives more numbers (p. 65) and lists the people
>in a temple holding in percentages, e.g. a temple holding consists of
>one minor worship site (a shrine) per level, one major worship site (a
>good-sized temple) per two levels and a greatworshipsite (a cathedral)
>per four levels. A great worship site is mentioned to have around 20 to
>50 priests and acolytes, supported by 30 men-at-arms.
>
>These characters were broken up for priests in 50%!! 0-level, 24% Priest
>1, 12% Priest 2, 6% Priest 3, 3% Priest 4, 2% Priest 5 and 1% Priest 6.

I like the "halving method" for determining the levels of various
populations, though lots of people object to it. The most often cited
objection I recall is that it doesn`t necessarily conform to the character
levels of PCs and NPCs in the published materials. That`s basically
correct, though I don`t think it necessarily invalidates the concept. Such
a method does explain the role and positions of the vast majority of
Cerilians, and in those cases where one such character does not fit (the
occasional 19th level wizard, or 36th level awnsheghlien) I`m content to
assume that at a certain point some sort of "demographic study" will reach
a "High Level" category in which all those individuals of, say, 10th or
higher level can be lumped.

There is a problem with the "halving method" presented in the Muden
sourcebook in that it gets applied elsewhere in a rather odd fashion. That
is, the various populations get broken down into subsets. The population
of a domain is the basic unit to which it is applied, but then it gets
applied to the residents of a particular holding, or a particular
province. Those populations aren`t large enough to really apply that method.

As for who created most of the magic items in Cerilia, I think it`s
important not to discount the efforts of the non-human races, particularly
the elves who not only have always had access to true magic, but whose
immortality gives them the time to gain the XP to level up to the point
where they can create powerful magic items AND spend XP to do so.

Permanent magic items could be created by the following categories of
characters: human true wizards, elven wizards, clerics, elves. In 3e one
should add magicians to that list, plus any other spellcaster (bards,
rangers, paladins) who take the appropriate feat(s), which is, admittedly,
pretty rare. One should also note that permanent magic item creation would
be more common for true wizards since they would no longer have to be of
such high level in order to create magic items. The question is, how much
will that effect the number of permanent magic items in BR?

Gary

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[ConjurerDragon]

Gary wrote:

> At 06:04 PM 2/26/2003 +0100, Michael Romes wrote:
> Personally, I never much cared for the ability score minimum requirements
> for magicians (or rangers, paladins, etc.) in 2e. I don`t miss them. It
> makes more sense to me to do it the way 3e did and just limit the
> character`s capacity to perform in his given class rather than to
> preclude
> any participation in a class because he has a 13 wisdom.

Minimum ability scores was the approbiate way to have only a certain
percentage of characters be able to choose that class which was as I
understood the 2E way. In 3E the only ability relevant thing is that the
Magician would have to have 10+ INT else he would not be able to cast
spells of higher levels - so much more people can be Magicians.

Or Priests: With no ability score minimum as in 2E every player can be a
priest, as long as his WIS is high enough he can cast spells of the
approbiate level, so more 3E Priests in Birthright than 2E specialty
priests.

Which means together that much more characters in 3E Birthright can
become spellcasters then in 2E Birthright what I do not like, and that
lead to much more potential creators of magic items.

>> In addition most Players Secrets mention the raritiy of adventureres
>> with any level in a characterclass and that almost none surpass the 3rd
>> level, e.g .Talinie and Medoere.
>
>
> Do you have a page reference for this? I don`t recall that off the
> top of
> my head.

PS of Talinie, p. 18 "demographics", p 22 PS of Medoere and at least one
other PS but I do not remember which.

> As for who created most of the magic items in Cerilia, I think it`s
> important not to discount the efforts of the non-human races,
> particularly
> the elves who not only have always had access to true magic, but whose
> immortality gives them the time to gain the XP to level up to the point
> where they can create powerful magic items AND spend XP to do so.

Which would be void if as someone else suggested, bloodline points would
be needed as sacrifice to create a permanent magical item. Most elves
are unblooded and the elven unblooded wizards/3E sorcerors could no
longer create permanent magical items.
bye
Michael Romes

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[geeman]

At 09:25 PM 2/26/2003 +0100, Michael Romes wrote:

>Minimum ability scores was the approbiate way to have only a certain
>percentage of characters be able to choose that class which was as I
>understood the 2E way.

Was that the purpose? They always seemed rather arbitrary to me. In
several cases the ability score minimums seemed to be in place in order to
convey some sort of thematic purpose, rather than simply limit the number
of characters able to take those classes.

>With no ability score minimum as in 2E every player can be a priest, as
>long as his WIS is high enough he can cast spells of the approbiate level,
>so more 3E Priests in Birthright than 2E specialty
>priests.

I see that as a virtue. Anybody can be a priest in 3e, particularly with
the way multi-classing works. There`s been a lot of discussion on how RP
collection should work in 3e given that anyone can multi-class, and there`s
a special section in the 3e BR Playtest text that gives guidelines for
characters of one class collecting regency from holdings that are normally
restricted to another. Using 3e, though, I don`t think there should be any
such set of options. If a fighter wants to collect RP from temple holdings
he should take a cleric level.

>>>In addition most Players Secrets mention the raritiy of adventureres
>>>with any level in a characterclass and that almost none surpass the 3rd
>>>level, e.g .Talinie and Medoere.
>>
>>Do you have a page reference for this?
>
>PS of Talinie, p. 18 "demographics", p 22 PS of Medoere and at least one
>other PS but I do not remember which.

It does describe the number of people who will have class and level in the
Medoere SB. I haven`t got the Talinie SB handy. Is that the one that says
almost none surpass 3rd level?

>>As for who created most of the magic items in Cerilia, I think it`s
>>important not to discount the efforts of the non-human races,
>>particularly the elves who not only have always had access to true magic,
>>but whose immortality gives them the time to gain the XP to level up to
>>the point where they can create powerful magic items AND spend XP to do so.
>
>Which would be void if as someone else suggested, bloodline points would
>be needed as sacrifice to create a permanent magical item. Most elves are
>unblooded and the elven unblooded wizards/3E sorcerors could no longer
>create permanent magical items.

Well, that`s true, but I don`t personally think that`s a very good
solution. Sacrificing bloodline in order to create magic items is a pretty
big change from the original presentation of how bloodline works and what
it`s for. Increasing the XP cost and time required seems like the best way
of dealing with permanent magic item creation.

Gary

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[Eosin the Red]

>>>>Which means together that much more characters in 3E Birthright can become spellcasters then in 2E Birthright what I do not like, and that lead to much more potential creators of magic items.>>>>>

This is really GM territory. It does not matter what statistics are put in the book, if you write up tons of characters that violate the laid out groundwork. The way to avoid over incidence of spellcasters it to not make many up and those you do make keep within the lower levels.

3E and 2E are not the same and are grounded in differnt level dynamics. Sometimes this is muddy water, being inconsistent from book to book (i.e. veteran guards being 1 st level fighters in one book and then 4th level warriors in the next). But the class break downs really fail in the 2E-to-3E conversion for me. I tend to run a status quo world so I have a lot of things premade --- guards are 3rd level warriors in my world, mercs are 2nd level warriors, green fighting men and levies are 1st level warriors. By default, all adult and competent regents are 5th level or more but rarely exceed 10th level. The old NWP system allowed characters to be competent in non-martial fields at low levels and this just does not hold true for the 3E skills system. There is not even a published standard for (that I am aware of) for competence level --- just what is a master mason? What is his/her Craft: Masonry skill level? BR, IMO, lends itself to the status quo system and needs to work out some of these issues then leveling becomes less of an issue and sorts itself out. Considering that the average PC can generate a diplomacy skill of 10+ even in the lower levels, what skill value does a skilled diplomat (like those who might be senators) have? What about sages? Why ask the expert on history when nearly any wizard can answer the most obscure question on the fly?

For myself, I use the following breakdown 1-4 apprentice, 5-8 journeyman, 9-13 master, 14-17 renoun, 18-22 famous, 23+ legendary

A system like this is self enforcing, just how many legenday swordsmiths do you have in a generation?

Back on track: In the end it all falls back to the DM to build the characters who populate their world not the players. Having an idea that wizards/clerics/magicians are rare, should be enough guidance if you can restrain yourself from making the new COOL bad guy.


OFF TRACK: Magic items.
I see the majority of magic items in BR not being manufactured. Most of them should be relics/hierlooms of heros and kings. There are many varient methods for magic item creation (including one in Dragon for hierlooms) that are suitable for this purpose and then as the DM it is simple not to make up mages/clerics/magicians with the appropiate feats to create magic items. After all, how many clerics of the Storm Lord skip over power attack so that they can pick up "Create Wonderous Item"? In my campaign - one or two in any generation and usually given a special title like "Curicrean`s Smith" (SP?). Do other folks use more spontaenous magic creation or manufacturing methods?


Eosin the Red

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 11:04 AM


> Even in this light, would you say that 90% of all magic items are made
> in temples?

Full disclosure: I don`t use the magician class, I substitute alchemists,
herbalists, astronomers, and the like, who cannot cast spells above 2nd
level, but can make spell storage devices in a long drawn out process. So,
these folks can produce maybe 10% of the most common magic items, low level
one shot items. While at the very high end, I wouldn`t be surprised if a
similar number of the most powerful magic items were made by blooded
wizards, as by might priests.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 12:00 PM


> The most often cited objection I recall is that it doesn`t necessarily
> conform to the character levels of PCs and NPCs in the published
> materials.

The best counter argument is that what is dramatic is often the opposite of
what is typical.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 10:00 PM 2/26/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> > The most often cited objection I recall is that it doesn`t necessarily
> > conform to the character levels of PCs and NPCs in the published
> > materials.
>
>The best counter argument is that what is dramatic is often the opposite of
>what is typical.

How does dramatic/typical relate to using the "halving method" to determine
the spread of character levels?

Gary

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 9:00 AM


> How does dramatic/typical relate to using the "halving method" to
determine
> the spread of character levels?

The typical spread of characters occurs across the pyramid of halving. The
interesting characters designed for PS`s, modules, settings materials, or
what have you won`t neccesarily fit that pattern. James Bond is not a
typical spy. Sherlock Holmes is not a typical anything. Much good
adventure relies on its variance from what is typical for its interest. One
part of that is selecting characters who are not typical.

I rather view the characters in most of the materials as the end state of
the typical BR character. Its certainly easier to figure out what Ketifah
min Tomad (7th level paladin in Cities) looks like as a 2nd level character
than it would be to take some 2nd level character and figure out how to make
this character a suitable encounter for your 7th level party.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 10:00 AM 2/27/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> > How does dramatic/typical relate to using the "halving method" to determine
> > the spread of character levels?
>
>The typical spread of characters occurs across the pyramid of halving. The
>interesting characters designed for PS`s, modules, settings materials, or
>what have you won`t neccesarily fit that pattern. James Bond is not a
>typical spy. Sherlock Holmes is not a typical anything. Much good
>adventure relies on its variance from what is typical for its interest. One
>part of that is selecting characters who are not typical.

Ah, OK. In the case of the "halving method" though, I think it works out
pretty well if one just assumes that at some point along the tip of the
pyramid all the characters are lumped into an open-ended "high level"
category. That way it can be used to account for both the typical and the
dramatic.

Gary

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[geeman]

Here are the possibilities for restricting the amount of magic items
possible in a 3e BR campaign that I`ve gleaned from this thread and from
past discussions. I just want to put them all together in one post so as
to have a list that one can choose from.

1. Increase the "market cost" for magic items. This is the option
presented in the BR 3e Playtest document. Along with market cost are
increased the XP cost and raw materials cost for magic item creation.

2. Increase the time needed to create magic items.

3. Assign some sort of bloodline or RP cost to creating magic items.

4. Make one of the prereqs for the metamagic feats necessary to create
magic items the ability to cast divine or true magic spells.

These aren`t generally mutually exclusive.

Any others?

Gary

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[ConjurerDragon]

Gary wrote:

> Here are the possibilities for restricting the amount of magic items
> possible in a 3e BR campaign that I`ve gleaned from this thread and from
> past discussions. I just want to put them all together in one post so as
> to have a list that one can choose from.
>
> 1. Increase the "market cost" for magic items. This is the option
> presented in the BR 3e Playtest document. Along with market cost are
> increased the XP cost and raw materials cost for magic item creation.

The best option in my opinion. No new rule, only a reflection of the
rarity of magical items in Cerilia which leads to higher prices.
Perhaps then the price of Masterwork stuff should raise also, as
suggested in the Article on Birthright.Net/old? Masterwork Items would
fill the role of the readily available +1 longswords and similar of
other worlds.

> 3. Assign some sort of bloodline or RP cost to creating magic items.

The first would exclude unblooded sidhelien wizards - or even DRAGONS
from creating magical items - I definitely do not like that.

> 4. Make one of the prereqs for the metamagic feats necessary to create
> magic items the ability to cast divine or true magic spells.

That would prevent Magicians from creating ANY magical item.
In my opinion the restriction to create only magical items of which you
know the approbiate spell (e.g. Rope of Climbing - Animate Rope, or
Stone Salve - Flesh to Stone) does already limit who can create what.

Having a few Magicians, who take an item creation feat instead of other
feats, and creating things like Crystall Balls I would not see as unfitting.
bye
Michael Romes

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[Shade]

>Ah, OK. In the case of the "halving method" though, I think it works out
>pretty well if one just assumes that at some point along the tip of the
>pyramid all the characters are lumped into an open-ended "high level"
>category. That way it can be used to account for both the typical and the
>dramatic.

This is the solution I use, and for me it works well. In 2nd edition I
generally made 9th level the "cutoff" for where the halving stops.

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 11:23 AM


> Ah, OK. In the case of the "halving method" though, I think it works out
> pretty well if one just assumes that at some point along the tip of the
> pyramid all the characters are lumped into an open-ended "high level"
> category. That way it can be used to account for both the typical and the
> dramatic.

Yeah, exactly. The alternative makes little sense. A set of campaign
materials where half of all NPC`s presented are 1st level? That`s a huge
commitment of space for characters who have little backround and are useful
brieflt, while being hard to upgrade without close proximity to PC`s. With
the generic NPC tables in the DMG its easier to work backward and strip away
higher level presentations, like Shaemes Lavalier, to make him the party`s
level, keeping his character concept and development intect, than it is to
take a dozen 1st level presentations and figure out what happened to them by
7th level. If you`re gonna do that, make your own from scratch.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 11:31 AM


> Here are the possibilities for restricting the amount of magic items
> possible in a 3e BR campaign that I`ve gleaned from this thread and from
> past discussions. I just want to put them all together in one post so as
> to have a list that one can choose from.
> [...]
> Any others?

You could boost the caster level requirements for the item creation
metamagic feats.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Yair]

You can also:
5) increase the XP price multiplier from the base price (e.g. require 1/10 or 1/5 instead of the core 1/25).
6) require a payment of Con (instead of Bld)
Personally, I am using 6. It is harsh, but it actually works - my PC wizard is suddenly not planning on making or "buying" magical items. It does create a world that is more magic-poor than what you seem to aiming for, though.

[Shade]

At 09:31 AM 2/27/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>Here are the possibilities for restricting the amount of magic items
>possible in a 3e BR campaign that I`ve gleaned from this thread and from
>past discussions. I just want to put them all together in one post so as
>to have a list that one can choose from.
>
>1. Increase the "market cost" for magic items. This is the option
>presented in the BR 3e Playtest document. Along with market cost are
>increased the XP cost and raw materials cost for magic item creation.
>
>2. Increase the time needed to create magic items.
>
>3. Assign some sort of bloodline or RP cost to creating magic items.
>
>4. Make one of the prereqs for the metamagic feats necessary to create
>magic items the ability to cast divine or true magic spells.
>
>These aren`t generally mutually exclusive.
>
>Any others?

I`d use #1 and #2 both, and for most items, apply #4 on top of both of the
aforementioned. In some special cases I would use #3 as well.

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