Shade
02-18-2003, 01:30 AM
At 05:13 PM 2/17/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Lord Shade wrote:
>
>>>A level 1 Magician in 3E could without INT modifier memorize 2 level 1
>>>spells and so 2 "Rain of Magic Missililes".
>>>However Magic Missile and itīs battle magic counterparts power are very
>>>dependant on character level. A 1st level character gets only 1 Missile
>>>and the second at 3rd caster level (3E).
>>>
>>>The battle Magic version (2E Book of Magecraft) was even more limited as
>>>it gave the caster only 1missile for 6 levels.
>>>
>>>So a 1-5th level caster could do 1 H result to 1 unit. A 6th level
>>>caster 2 H results to one unit or 1 H to two units - firing this spell
>>>into a melee had the chance of friendly fire hitting the casters friends.
>>>
>>>I do not find that overpowering. An arcane caster inflicting 1 H result
>>>to an enemy in a whole battle which could take several turns with large
>>>armys? He could only wipe out e.g. scouts as they only can take 1 H and
>>>are gone. Most others will stay alive and keep fighting.
>>>
>>
>>...
>>
>>You don`t think the fact that a single 1st level, landless, sourceless,
>>unblooded MAGICIAN can wipe out a unit of 200 scouts with 1 spell is
>>overpowering?
>>
>Are 200 scouts in a unit, weak as they are? Even if so I do not think
>that arcane magic is too strong.
>Arcane Magic always was the destructive force as opposed to the divine
>healing magic (generally speaking).
I thought the general assumption was that a unit of soldiers consisted of
about 200 people. Correct me if I`m wrong, but I believe this is stated
somewhere in the BR rulebook.
>However that level 1 Magician would not simply walk on the battlefield
>and destroy a unit of scouts.
>There are prerequisites before that:
>
>1) The Magician has to know the conventional spell Magic Missile (not
>that hard but still requrires a successful spellcraft3E check if it is
>not one of the spells he started with)
This is a non-issue. Almost every 1st level wizard in any campaign I`ve
ever played in has magic missile as one of his starting spells. It is such
a useful and easy to cast spell that I would think its knowledge would be
widespread among magicians.
>2) The Magician must spend a RESEARCH action to research the battle
>magic version of the spell
>2E Book of Magecraft had 1 month per 3 levels, so at least 1 month
>research for the minimum of time. However the research check in 2E was
>that you succeed to learn the spell ONLY on a roll of a D20 on a 20 =
>only 5% chance!!!
>The chances could be improved by caster level (for every 3 caster levels
>reduce the required result by 1 (a level 1 Magician still has to throw a
>20).
Within two years of work, a Magician could easily learn the spell. Let`s
take a realm like Avanil, for example. Let`s just, for argument`s sake, say
it has a total population of 196,000 people (a province 7 alone has
80,000-100,000, right? Avanil has a 7th level province as well as 8 others
in the 3-5 range).
Avanil`s Provinces:
7 - 60,000
5 - 35,000
5 - 35,000
4 - 15,000
4 - 15,000
3 - 9,000
3 - 9,000
3 - 9,000
3 - 9,000
For a grand total of 196,000 people, using a conservative estimate for the
level 7 province (Anuire).
Let`s say that 2.5% of these people actually have an adventuring character
class (this is the standard assumption, right? correct me if I`m wrong.. it
is based on the Muden sourcebook numbers, which are the only data we have
to go on for Birthright).
That makes about 4900 characters that have an actual class and level (in 3e
terms, these are people with a PC character class). Let`s further assume
that the distribution is heavily weighted towards fighters and thieves, to
the tune of: 4 fighters:3 thieves: 2 clerics: 1 magician.
That gives us 490 magicians. Using the 50% rule (suggested in the Muden
sourcebook; this contradicts the 10% rule in the 2e DMG) to determine
levels, 245 of these are 1st level, 122 are 2nd level, 61 are 3rd level, 30
are 4th level, 15 are 5th level, and 7 are 6th level. ~3 are 7th level or
higher, and 17 are somewhere in between (fractions from dividing.)
Let`s assume that Darien Avan is a bright and enterprising regent,
determined to find every edge to help him win the Iron Throne. After all,
he has an Intelligence score of 16 and Charisma of 17. He should have no
problems finding people to support him, skilled as he is in leadership.
Let`s assume that he`s able to find a mere 5 magicians willing to work for
him and serve in the army, and that their average level is 3rd. This
represents 1% of the available magicians in the nation.
Avanil has an average province level of 4.1, so lets be generous and round
that up to 5. Each magician, using ply trade, can command a price of
(3x25x5=375gp/mo) for his services, which is roughly 1gb per season. If you
say that these magicians are actually lieutenants, the cost is quite a bit
lower (they count as holdings) and they could be significantly higher in
level. Darien Avan has a 17 charisma and a Great bloodline and could easily
support 5 magician lieutenants.
Since these magicians will succeed in their spell research on a base of
19-20, within 10 months they should succeed. However, every month they do
research and fail, their success chance improves by 1.
So
10%+15%+20%+25%+30%=100%, so by month 5 they should have succeeded, on
average. Just to be on the safe side, let`s say everyone makes it within 6
months (at which point their success chance is 14-20), or 2 domain turns.
Spending 1gb/mo/per magician, this is 30gb in expenditures (easy for
Avanil`s treasury, which is as mighty as the nation`s army, p.34 Ruins of
Empire) for research.
So after 2 domain turns, 30gb in gold spent on research (sunk costs), and
10gb in maintenance (ply trade for 6 months) costs, Darien Avan has a force
of 5 magicians that can each cast Rain of Magic Missiles twice per day.
Their spell progression is 3 2, and it is reasonable to assume that they
will have a 14 int (this gives them a bonus 1st level spell in both 3e and
2e/Player`s Option). so let`s assume they can cast 3 RMM per day, 1
phantasmal force/day, and 2-3 improved phantasmal forces (depending on if
it`s 2e or 3e). Actually, isn`t there a rule in 3e that says you can use a
higher level spell slot to memorize a lower level spell? If that is the
case they could conceivably memorize as many as 5 RMMs. In a 5 round
battle, that is up to 25 hits of damage.
Since Phantasmal force variants cause a fall back result, the magicians can
use these spells to protect themselves if things get too hairy in terms of
engagements (they will be accompanied by a unit of knights or elite
infantry, or be spread out among several units). Or, if Harald Khorien is
around, he`ll just use some kind of Wall spell or globe of invulnerability
to protect them while he casts his own battle spells.
So for the cost of 40gb in sunk costs, and 5gb/turn in maintenance, DA can
field a force that can automatically cause 2 hits of damage EVERY DAY.
Sure, this comes out to a single-man unit costing 8gb to muster and 1 to
maintain, but keep in mind these guys could just as easily memorize 2
invisibilities and go sneak up on units while they are sleeping, fire off
an RMM, and wipe out like 2 units every night.
You don`t think this is overpowered?
And keep in mind all the estimates I`ve made are on the conservative side,
and the costs could actually be quite a bit lower.
>The caster could reduce the required roll by 1 if he was a specialist
>from the school of the spell - however Magicians are specialists in
>Illusion and Divination and Magic Missisle was Evocation, so still no
>help for the 1st level Magician
>The caster could reduce the required roll by spending RP and/or GB - the
>Magician in your example, landless, sourceless has certainly neither.
>The caster could reduce the required roll for each time he tried before
>to learn the spell (and failed).
>
>That is awfully difficult and time-consuming for a Magician who tries to
>research a battlespell not from the Illusion/Divination school.
>
>In addition the memorized battle spell took up one spell slot of the
>Magician so that he can cast less conventional magic - rendering him
>nearly defenceless.
>
>>If battle magic is THIS strong, I don`t understand how elves ever lose
>>battles...
>>
>They have no Magicians, as they are all able to become 2E Wizards (no
>bloodline requirement for sidhelien).
So this makes it even easier for elves to learn battle magic, as they don`t
have to deal with the inherent restrictions of magicians.
Take for example Llaeddra, an 18th level wizard. As powerful as battle
spells are, she could easily wipe out a 25-unit army by HERSELF. Now
consider that in Ruins of Empire, only Avanil has a 25-unit army, and that
is considered "huge."
All Llaeddra would have to do would be to cast fly, improved invisibility,
and otiluke`s resilient sphere (or similar defensive spell) and then
proceed to rain down unholy terror on the 25 units below.
And that assumes she`s the only mage. What if there are 2 other 10th level
wizards with her (not unreasonable for an elven realm?)
I don`t buy your breeding rates argument. If battle magic is as powerful as
written, a tiny handful of elves could easily slaughter vast numbers of
humans very quickly. An 18th level wizard could easily kill a couple
thousand humans each day on the battlefield with her normal complement of
spells (1 meteor swarm = 1 dead unit, several fireballs, 5-6 rains of magic
missiles, etc etc etc)
The only argument that would make sense from this perspective is the one
about the gods taking physical form. Even an 18th level wizard doesn`t
really compare to the power of an avatar.
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>Lord Shade wrote:
>
>>>A level 1 Magician in 3E could without INT modifier memorize 2 level 1
>>>spells and so 2 "Rain of Magic Missililes".
>>>However Magic Missile and itīs battle magic counterparts power are very
>>>dependant on character level. A 1st level character gets only 1 Missile
>>>and the second at 3rd caster level (3E).
>>>
>>>The battle Magic version (2E Book of Magecraft) was even more limited as
>>>it gave the caster only 1missile for 6 levels.
>>>
>>>So a 1-5th level caster could do 1 H result to 1 unit. A 6th level
>>>caster 2 H results to one unit or 1 H to two units - firing this spell
>>>into a melee had the chance of friendly fire hitting the casters friends.
>>>
>>>I do not find that overpowering. An arcane caster inflicting 1 H result
>>>to an enemy in a whole battle which could take several turns with large
>>>armys? He could only wipe out e.g. scouts as they only can take 1 H and
>>>are gone. Most others will stay alive and keep fighting.
>>>
>>
>>...
>>
>>You don`t think the fact that a single 1st level, landless, sourceless,
>>unblooded MAGICIAN can wipe out a unit of 200 scouts with 1 spell is
>>overpowering?
>>
>Are 200 scouts in a unit, weak as they are? Even if so I do not think
>that arcane magic is too strong.
>Arcane Magic always was the destructive force as opposed to the divine
>healing magic (generally speaking).
I thought the general assumption was that a unit of soldiers consisted of
about 200 people. Correct me if I`m wrong, but I believe this is stated
somewhere in the BR rulebook.
>However that level 1 Magician would not simply walk on the battlefield
>and destroy a unit of scouts.
>There are prerequisites before that:
>
>1) The Magician has to know the conventional spell Magic Missile (not
>that hard but still requrires a successful spellcraft3E check if it is
>not one of the spells he started with)
This is a non-issue. Almost every 1st level wizard in any campaign I`ve
ever played in has magic missile as one of his starting spells. It is such
a useful and easy to cast spell that I would think its knowledge would be
widespread among magicians.
>2) The Magician must spend a RESEARCH action to research the battle
>magic version of the spell
>2E Book of Magecraft had 1 month per 3 levels, so at least 1 month
>research for the minimum of time. However the research check in 2E was
>that you succeed to learn the spell ONLY on a roll of a D20 on a 20 =
>only 5% chance!!!
>The chances could be improved by caster level (for every 3 caster levels
>reduce the required result by 1 (a level 1 Magician still has to throw a
>20).
Within two years of work, a Magician could easily learn the spell. Let`s
take a realm like Avanil, for example. Let`s just, for argument`s sake, say
it has a total population of 196,000 people (a province 7 alone has
80,000-100,000, right? Avanil has a 7th level province as well as 8 others
in the 3-5 range).
Avanil`s Provinces:
7 - 60,000
5 - 35,000
5 - 35,000
4 - 15,000
4 - 15,000
3 - 9,000
3 - 9,000
3 - 9,000
3 - 9,000
For a grand total of 196,000 people, using a conservative estimate for the
level 7 province (Anuire).
Let`s say that 2.5% of these people actually have an adventuring character
class (this is the standard assumption, right? correct me if I`m wrong.. it
is based on the Muden sourcebook numbers, which are the only data we have
to go on for Birthright).
That makes about 4900 characters that have an actual class and level (in 3e
terms, these are people with a PC character class). Let`s further assume
that the distribution is heavily weighted towards fighters and thieves, to
the tune of: 4 fighters:3 thieves: 2 clerics: 1 magician.
That gives us 490 magicians. Using the 50% rule (suggested in the Muden
sourcebook; this contradicts the 10% rule in the 2e DMG) to determine
levels, 245 of these are 1st level, 122 are 2nd level, 61 are 3rd level, 30
are 4th level, 15 are 5th level, and 7 are 6th level. ~3 are 7th level or
higher, and 17 are somewhere in between (fractions from dividing.)
Let`s assume that Darien Avan is a bright and enterprising regent,
determined to find every edge to help him win the Iron Throne. After all,
he has an Intelligence score of 16 and Charisma of 17. He should have no
problems finding people to support him, skilled as he is in leadership.
Let`s assume that he`s able to find a mere 5 magicians willing to work for
him and serve in the army, and that their average level is 3rd. This
represents 1% of the available magicians in the nation.
Avanil has an average province level of 4.1, so lets be generous and round
that up to 5. Each magician, using ply trade, can command a price of
(3x25x5=375gp/mo) for his services, which is roughly 1gb per season. If you
say that these magicians are actually lieutenants, the cost is quite a bit
lower (they count as holdings) and they could be significantly higher in
level. Darien Avan has a 17 charisma and a Great bloodline and could easily
support 5 magician lieutenants.
Since these magicians will succeed in their spell research on a base of
19-20, within 10 months they should succeed. However, every month they do
research and fail, their success chance improves by 1.
So
10%+15%+20%+25%+30%=100%, so by month 5 they should have succeeded, on
average. Just to be on the safe side, let`s say everyone makes it within 6
months (at which point their success chance is 14-20), or 2 domain turns.
Spending 1gb/mo/per magician, this is 30gb in expenditures (easy for
Avanil`s treasury, which is as mighty as the nation`s army, p.34 Ruins of
Empire) for research.
So after 2 domain turns, 30gb in gold spent on research (sunk costs), and
10gb in maintenance (ply trade for 6 months) costs, Darien Avan has a force
of 5 magicians that can each cast Rain of Magic Missiles twice per day.
Their spell progression is 3 2, and it is reasonable to assume that they
will have a 14 int (this gives them a bonus 1st level spell in both 3e and
2e/Player`s Option). so let`s assume they can cast 3 RMM per day, 1
phantasmal force/day, and 2-3 improved phantasmal forces (depending on if
it`s 2e or 3e). Actually, isn`t there a rule in 3e that says you can use a
higher level spell slot to memorize a lower level spell? If that is the
case they could conceivably memorize as many as 5 RMMs. In a 5 round
battle, that is up to 25 hits of damage.
Since Phantasmal force variants cause a fall back result, the magicians can
use these spells to protect themselves if things get too hairy in terms of
engagements (they will be accompanied by a unit of knights or elite
infantry, or be spread out among several units). Or, if Harald Khorien is
around, he`ll just use some kind of Wall spell or globe of invulnerability
to protect them while he casts his own battle spells.
So for the cost of 40gb in sunk costs, and 5gb/turn in maintenance, DA can
field a force that can automatically cause 2 hits of damage EVERY DAY.
Sure, this comes out to a single-man unit costing 8gb to muster and 1 to
maintain, but keep in mind these guys could just as easily memorize 2
invisibilities and go sneak up on units while they are sleeping, fire off
an RMM, and wipe out like 2 units every night.
You don`t think this is overpowered?
And keep in mind all the estimates I`ve made are on the conservative side,
and the costs could actually be quite a bit lower.
>The caster could reduce the required roll by 1 if he was a specialist
>from the school of the spell - however Magicians are specialists in
>Illusion and Divination and Magic Missisle was Evocation, so still no
>help for the 1st level Magician
>The caster could reduce the required roll by spending RP and/or GB - the
>Magician in your example, landless, sourceless has certainly neither.
>The caster could reduce the required roll for each time he tried before
>to learn the spell (and failed).
>
>That is awfully difficult and time-consuming for a Magician who tries to
>research a battlespell not from the Illusion/Divination school.
>
>In addition the memorized battle spell took up one spell slot of the
>Magician so that he can cast less conventional magic - rendering him
>nearly defenceless.
>
>>If battle magic is THIS strong, I don`t understand how elves ever lose
>>battles...
>>
>They have no Magicians, as they are all able to become 2E Wizards (no
>bloodline requirement for sidhelien).
So this makes it even easier for elves to learn battle magic, as they don`t
have to deal with the inherent restrictions of magicians.
Take for example Llaeddra, an 18th level wizard. As powerful as battle
spells are, she could easily wipe out a 25-unit army by HERSELF. Now
consider that in Ruins of Empire, only Avanil has a 25-unit army, and that
is considered "huge."
All Llaeddra would have to do would be to cast fly, improved invisibility,
and otiluke`s resilient sphere (or similar defensive spell) and then
proceed to rain down unholy terror on the 25 units below.
And that assumes she`s the only mage. What if there are 2 other 10th level
wizards with her (not unreasonable for an elven realm?)
I don`t buy your breeding rates argument. If battle magic is as powerful as
written, a tiny handful of elves could easily slaughter vast numbers of
humans very quickly. An 18th level wizard could easily kill a couple
thousand humans each day on the battlefield with her normal complement of
spells (1 meteor swarm = 1 dead unit, several fireballs, 5-6 rains of magic
missiles, etc etc etc)
The only argument that would make sense from this perspective is the one
about the gods taking physical form. Even an 18th level wizard doesn`t
really compare to the power of an avatar.
************************************************** **************************
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Birthright-l Archives: http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
To unsubscribe, send email to LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
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