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Arjan
02-15-2003, 06:07 PM
Sorry for the inconvenience, i deleted the whole thread while editing double posts...


poilbrun wrote:
Hello!

I'm rather new to BR, and I'd like to have a list of the 12 old duchies of Anuire. Here is those I think I know ;)
Avanil
Diemed
Aerenwe
Cariele
The two that have formed Ghoere (could someone please tell me the two names?)
Brosengae

I suppose there would be Alamie, Mhoried, Boeruine, since these are still big realms today. What about the parts that are now Coeranys, Elinie, Osoerde? What about Tuarhievel, Sielwode and Baruk-Azik? Where they considered part of the duchies? What about the goblin realms, and the Anshwelien territories?

In which book is this information? Is this available as ESD?

Thanks!


The Tribes of the Andu
At the time of Deismaar, the Anuireans were known as the Andu. They were a federation of tribes, much like the Germans in Rome's time, although they were more technologically and culturally advanced. We know that the Deretha, the Fifth House, became the folk of Diemed, and the Elins became the people of Elinie. Other tribes tend to fall along the lines of the Twelve Duchies.

The Twelve Duchies
When the Empire was an Empire, the most important lands were the Twelve Duchies: Avanil, Boeruine, Mhoried, Diemed, Alamie, Osoerde, Aerenwe, Taeghas, Elinie, Cariele, Ghieste, and Dhalaene. All these lands still survive today, although Cariele has suffered in the expansion of Thurazor and the Five Peaks, while Ghieste and Dhalaene together became Ghoere after the Empire's fall.

New Kingdoms
Many new domains have been formed since Michael's death. Tuornen split off from Alamie; Ghieste and Dhalaene were united as Ghoere; Medoere, Endier, and Ilien all declared independence from Diemed; and Roesone was carved out of Diemed and Aerenwe. Note that Talinie's current dynasty came to power recently, but Talinie goes back well before the fall of the Empire.

Green Knight
02-15-2003, 09:05 PM
From where exactly do we know that the Elins became the people of
Elinie? Just wondering, because "Elin" is a pretty boring girl`s name in
Norway, and I don`t hink I like the sound of it, nor can I remember
reading about it :-)

>The Tribes of the Andu
>We know that the Deretha, the Fifth House, became the folk of Diemed,
and >the Elins became the people of Elinie. Other tribes tend to fall
along the >lines of the Twelve Duchies.

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Green Knight
02-15-2003, 09:28 PM
I always pictured the Andu as having only five Houses (or some such)
when they came to Cerilia. The organization into Duchies came only after
the formation of the Empire; mostly as rewards to those scions who had
proven their loyalty to Roele, or who were strong enough to warrant
recognition by the fledgeling Emperor.

We know from the PS of Roesone that the Deretha eventually became the
folk of Diemed and environs. Other than that it is pretty sketchy to say
the least. In my minds eye, I always envisioned Diem, scion of the
Deretha and loyal supporter of Emperor Roele, being granted the lands
along the South Coast to hold as his own. Likewise, I liked thinking
that the Boru (from the BoP) was akin to the Deretha, and that this
house settled the West Coast. They got their recognition from Roele, not
through excessive loyalty, but because of their power and the remoteness
of their holdings.

Point is, I didn`t like the ancient house = new duchy link. Too much
happened for this to be an appealing solution. More likely/appealing to
me, that Roele was the deciding factor as to who got what, and how this
ended up as the Twelve Duchies.

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Arjan
02-15-2003, 10:29 PM
a while back i received some foles from Rich Baker, this part about the 12 duchies was an excerp of the original email.
Heres a copy of the whole file:

Date: 11 May 1995
From: Rich Baker
To: BIRTHRIGHT Groupes

RE: That Wacky Old Empire

I came across a potential stumbling block in the history of the Anuirean Empire. The map of Anuire represents the Empire as it stands today, in 551 Michaeline Reckoning. The world changes constantly, and a lot of nations (especially those that appear in our Domain Packs) came into being within the last 100-200 years. (Just look at a map of Europe in 1914.) References to nations in the past should be checked carefully! They might not have existed at the time you're talking about.

The Tribes of the Andu
At the time of Deismaar, the Anuireans were known as the Andu. They were a federation of tribes, much like the Germans in Rome's time, although they were more technologically and culturally advanced. We know that the Deretha, the Fifth House, became the folk of Diemed, and the Elins became the people of Elinie. Other tribes tend to fall along the lines of the Twelve Duchies.

The Twelve Duchies
When the Empire was an Empire, the most important lands were the Twelve Duchies: Avanil, Boeruine, Mhoried, Diemed, Alamie, Osoerde, Aerenwe, Taeghas, Elinie, Cariele, Ghieste, and Dhalaene. All these lands still survive today, although Cariele has suffered in the expansion of Thurazor and the Five Peaks, while Ghieste and Dhalaene together became Ghoere after the Empire's fall.

New Kingdoms
Many new domains have been formed since Michael's death. Tuornen split off from Alamie; Ghieste and Dhalaene were united as Ghoere; Medoere, Endier, and Ilien all declared independence from Diemed; and Roesone was carved out of Diemed and Aerenwe. Note that Talinie's current dynasty came to power recently, but Talinie goes back well before the fall of the Empire.

Tony's Painting
We've figured out that Tony's big painting shows Michael Roele in the Battle of Caer Dalton, or Sorrow's Field. When Michael first took the throne, Boeruine revolted and dragged most of the Western Coast with him. The civil war lasted for years. Finally, Boeruine marched on the Imperial City of Anuire, with a horde of goblins as his allies. They overran most of Avanil before Michael met his armies near the town of Dalton, the capital of Avanil. In Tony's painting, you can see Caer Dalton, the castle of the Avans, in the background. Michael's personal guard is fighting their way through the guards of a goblin warlord, whom Michael is personally engaging. Most of Boeruine's army happens to be "off-camera."

poilbrun
02-16-2003, 02:17 PM
Thanks!

Onwen Agelmore
02-20-2003, 05:14 PM
Can someone post the noble titles of the 12 duchies?

DanMcSorley
02-20-2003, 06:00 PM
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Onwen Agelmore wrote:
> Can someone post the noble titles of the 12 duchies?

Eh? Theoretically, they`re all Dukes. Or do you mean, what do they go by
in 551 MR (`modern` BR times)?

Using the list above, it`s, um:
Avanil: Prince
Boeruine: Archduke
Mhoried: The Mhor
Diemed: Baron
Alamie: Duke, I think
Osoerde: Duke
Aerenwe: Queen
Taeghas: Count, I think
Elinie: Duke
Cariele: ?
Ghieste and Dhalaene: Unified into Ghoere, ruled by a Baron

Any corrections? That`s from my memory, which is distorted by years of
PBEMing.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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DanMcSorley
02-20-2003, 06:00 PM
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Onwen Agelmore wrote:
> Can someone post the noble titles of the 12 duchies?

Eh? Theoretically, they`re all Dukes. Or do you mean, what do they go by
in 551 MR (`modern` BR times)?

Using the list above, it`s, um:
Avanil: Prince
Boeruine: Archduke
Mhoried: The Mhor
Diemed: Baron
Alamie: Duke, I think
Osoerde: Duke
Aerenwe: Queen
Taeghas: Count, I think
Elinie: Duke
Cariele: ?
Ghieste and Dhalaene: Unified into Ghoere, ruled by a Baron

Any corrections? That`s from my memory, which is distorted by years of
PBEMing.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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blitzmacher
02-20-2003, 10:25 PM
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Onwen Agelmore wrote:
> Can someone post the noble titles of the 12 duchies?

Eh? Theoretically, they`re all Dukes. Or do you mean, what do they go by
in 551 MR (`modern` BR times)?

Using the list above, it`s, um:
Avanil: Prince
Boeruine: Archduke
Mhoried: The Mhor
Diemed: Baron
Alamie: Duke, I think
Osoerde: Duke
Aerenwe: Queen
Taeghas: Count, I think
Elinie: Duke
Cariele: ?
Ghieste and Dhalaene: Unified into Ghoere, ruled by a Baron

Any corrections? That`s from my memory, which is distorted by years of
PBEMing.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu


Cariele: Count

Shade
02-21-2003, 01:22 AM
At 12:46 PM 2/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Onwen Agelmore wrote:
>> Can someone post the noble titles of the 12 duchies?
>
>Eh? Theoretically, they`re all Dukes. Or do you mean, what do they go by
>in 551 MR (`modern` BR times)?
>
>Using the list above, it`s, um:
>Avanil: Prince
>Boeruine: Archduke
>Mhoried: The Mhor
>Diemed: Baron
>Alamie: Duke, I think
>Osoerde: Duke
>Aerenwe: Queen
>Taeghas: Count, I think
>Elinie: Duke
>Cariele: ?
>Ghieste and Dhalaene: Unified into Ghoere, ruled by a Baron
>
>Any corrections? That`s from my memory, which is distorted by years of
>PBEMing.
>--

A lot of this didn`t make sense to me, so I changed it in my campaign. For
instance, where does Liliene Swordwraith get off calling herself a queen?
I`d think the other regents of Anuire would consider it the height of
arrogance for her (or her ancestor) to give herself that title. Why on
earth would the Diem family voluntarily choose to call themselves Barons,
when they know it is a very low title?

IMC Diemed and Aerenwe both go by Duke.

As for Taeghas, I have always assumed that it was a single province in
ancient times (hence County) and expanded over the years.

Also I think Brosengae was supposed to be one of the original 12.

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Shade
02-21-2003, 03:26 AM
At 09:07 PM 2/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Lord Shade wrote:
>> A lot of this didn`t make sense to me, so I changed it in my campaign. For
>> instance, where does Liliene Swordwraith get off calling herself a queen?
>
>Someone in that line decided (quite rightly IMO) that the empire was dead
>and old titles irrelevant, so they might as well call a king a king.

Would such a character participate in the Sword and Crown? All the other
participants accept that the Empire is not dead, in fact that is the
premise of the whole event.

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DanMcSorley
02-21-2003, 03:26 AM
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003, Lord Shade wrote:
> A lot of this didn`t make sense to me, so I changed it in my campaign. For
> instance, where does Liliene Swordwraith get off calling herself a queen?

Someone in that line decided (quite rightly IMO) that the empire was dead
and old titles irrelevant, so they might as well call a king a king.

> As for Taeghas, I have always assumed that it was a single province in
> ancient times (hence County) and expanded over the years.
>
> Also I think Brosengae was supposed to be one of the original 12.

Apparently not, according to the post earlier in this thread. Since it
contains info from the creator of the setting, I`m ok with that.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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kgauck
02-21-2003, 06:10 AM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 6:48 PM


> A lot of this didn`t make sense to me, so I changed it in my campaign. For
> instance, where does Liliene Swordwraith get off calling herself a queen?
> I`d think the other regents of Anuire would consider it the height of
> arrogance for her (or her ancestor) to give herself that title. Why on
> earth would the Diem family voluntarily choose to call themselves Barons,
> when they know it is a very low title?

Its possible that attitudes towards titles differ on Cerilia than we might
expect from our own history. Swordwraith`s claims might not be putting
herself above her peers, but rather claiming no interest in any further talk
or effort towards empire. She, unlike most, has embraced the current
situation of small, automous states.

As for Diemed, it like other states has seen a reduction of title based on
loss of territory. Since the Diems only control a fraction of the duchy of
Diemed, it may be offsensive to claim the title of duke. I have interpreted
the counts of Cariele using that title to avoid any affront to guilder
Mheallie Bireon.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Shade
02-21-2003, 07:27 AM
At 11:11 PM 2/20/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
>Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 6:48 PM
>
>
>> A lot of this didn`t make sense to me, so I changed it in my campaign. For
>> instance, where does Liliene Swordwraith get off calling herself a queen?
>> I`d think the other regents of Anuire would consider it the height of
>> arrogance for her (or her ancestor) to give herself that title. Why on
>> earth would the Diem family voluntarily choose to call themselves Barons,
>> when they know it is a very low title?
>
>Its possible that attitudes towards titles differ on Cerilia than we might
>expect from our own history. Swordwraith`s claims might not be putting
>herself above her peers, but rather claiming no interest in any further talk
>or effort towards empire. She, unlike most, has embraced the current
>situation of small, automous states.

It`s definitely possible. Since it isn`t clear, if that interpretation
makes sense to you, it would work great for your game. I personally don`t
see it like that, so I changed the titles. Actually I only changed Diemed`s
title - Aerenwe is a PC, and I told him that other regents think it bizarre
that Swordwraith called herself a queen even though Aerenwe is an Anuirean
duchy. He got the message, so he is now Count Robert Calrie, Duke of Aerenwe.

>As for Diemed, it like other states has seen a reduction of title based on
>loss of territory. Since the Diems only control a fraction of the duchy of
>Diemed, it may be offsensive to claim the title of duke. I have interpreted
>the counts of Cariele using that title to avoid any affront to guilder
>Mheallie Bireon.

Shouldn`t the reverse then be true too? By that reasoning, Gavin Tael has
more than earned the right to call himself a Duke... or even an Archduke,
as he has more provinces than Boeruine.

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ConjurerDragon
02-21-2003, 02:04 PM
Lord Shade wrote:

>At 12:46 PM 2/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>
>A lot of this didn`t make sense to me, so I changed it in my campaign. For
>instance, where does Liliene Swordwraith get off calling herself a queen?
>
From the elven kingdoms. Tuarhievel for example was ruled formerly by
Queen Tuar who gave the land itīs name. That the current rulers only use
the title of Prince is in honour of Queen Tuar, to which they do not
want to be call themselves equal. This is in the PS of Tuarhievel.

Queen does not mean that she sees herself as "more than a duke" -
although the title sounds as more for us.
I see it as a demonstration that she broke with the empire and rules an
independant realm, probably based partly on elven traditionis (with
their two elven lieutenants, the Erebannien and such).

>I`d think the other regents of Anuire would consider it the height of
>arrogance for her (or her ancestor) to give herself that title. Why on
>earth would the Diem family voluntarily choose to call themselves Barons,
>when they know it is a very low title?
>
Because they only rule a part of what was the Duchy of Diemed. Perhaps
the lawful Dukes who lost the provinces of Medoere and Endier and
Caercas (to Roesone) vowed to name themselves Dukes only after restoring
the Duchy to itīs former size as punishment for themselves?

Or because the title reflects what you rule as described by Morg in RANK
- TITLE:

> http://www.bloodsilver.com/scholastic/nobility.php

>IMC Diemed and Aerenwe both go by Duke.
>As for Taeghas, I have always assumed that it was a single province in
>ancient times (hence County) and expanded over the years.
>
The other option is that they had a rebellion and the real Duke was
forced to flee. Cariele is a good example of this. The family of Cariele
retains the rank of "Duke of Cariele" but rules Coeraniys. The ruler of
Cariele canīt be Duke Gladanil of Cariele, because he is not the legal
Duke, so he is COUNT Gladanil, Duke of Cariele (personal rank and title
of what you rule).
bye
Michael Romes

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DanMcSorley
02-21-2003, 04:02 PM
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Lord Shade wrote:
> Shouldn`t the reverse then be true too? By that reasoning, Gavin Tael has
> more than earned the right to call himself a Duke... or even an Archduke,
> as he has more provinces than Boeruine.

Except that Archduke is as bizzare in Anuirean tradition as `King of
Aerenwe` and `Prince of Avanil`- they`re all just Dukes, some of which
like to inflate their own titles.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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kgauck
02-21-2003, 06:48 PM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:38 AM


> Shouldn`t the reverse then be true too? By that reasoning, Gavin Tael has
> more than earned the right to call himself a Duke... or even an Archduke,
> as he has more provinces than Boeruine.

Certainly, I think that he prefers power to prestige, however, and keeps the
lesser title to conceal his ambition.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Shade
02-22-2003, 02:32 AM
>>I`d think the other regents of Anuire would consider it the height of
>>arrogance for her (or her ancestor) to give herself that title. Why on
>>earth would the Diem family voluntarily choose to call themselves Barons,
>>when they know it is a very low title?
>>
>Because they only rule a part of what was the Duchy of Diemed. Perhaps
>the lawful Dukes who lost the provinces of Medoere and Endier and
>Caercas (to Roesone) vowed to name themselves Dukes only after restoring
>the Duchy to itīs former size as punishment for themselves?
>
>Or because the title reflects what you rule as described by Morg in RANK
>- TITLE:
>
>> http://www.bloodsilver.com/scholastic/nobility.php

Yes, I use Morg`s article in my campaign. But that still doesn`t address
why Heirl Diem is a baron - his family`s rank should be Duke, based on the
fact that that`s what they were in the Empire. He should go by Duke Heirl
Diem, Duke of Diemed.

>>IMC Diemed and Aerenwe both go by Duke.
>>As for Taeghas, I have always assumed that it was a single province in
>>ancient times (hence County) and expanded over the years.
>>
>The other option is that they had a rebellion and the real Duke was
>forced to flee. Cariele is a good example of this. The family of Cariele
>retains the rank of "Duke of Cariele" but rules Coeraniys. The ruler of
>Cariele canīt be Duke Gladanil of Cariele, because he is not the legal
>Duke, so he is COUNT Gladanil, Duke of Cariele (personal rank and title
>of what you rule).

Agreed.

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Shade
02-22-2003, 02:32 AM
At 10:31 AM 2/21/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Lord Shade wrote:
>> Shouldn`t the reverse then be true too? By that reasoning, Gavin Tael has
>> more than earned the right to call himself a Duke... or even an Archduke,
>> as he has more provinces than Boeruine.
>
>Except that Archduke is as bizzare in Anuirean tradition as `King of
>Aerenwe` and `Prince of Avanil`- they`re all just Dukes, some of which
>like to inflate their own titles.

I thought Archduke was a "super" title, given to the strongest dukes.
Avanil was a principality, and its ruler was a prince (kind of like the
Prince of Wales in Britain? meaning, the realm the crown prince rules
before he becomes Emperor).

In the novel Iron Throne, was Avan referred to as Archduke Avan, Duke Avan,
or Prince Avan?

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Shade
02-22-2003, 02:32 AM
At 12:13 PM 2/21/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
>Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:38 AM
>
>
>> Shouldn`t the reverse then be true too? By that reasoning, Gavin Tael has
>> more than earned the right to call himself a Duke... or even an Archduke,
>> as he has more provinces than Boeruine.
>
>Certainly, I think that he prefers power to prestige, however, and keeps the
>lesser title to conceal his ambition.

Ruins of Empire, p. 36: "It remains a point of endless bitterness to him
that all Anuire does not consider him one of the front-runners for the Iron
Throne," in reference to Gavin Tael.

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kgauck
02-22-2003, 09:33 AM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lord Shade" <lordshade@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 6:59 PM


> >Certainly, I think that he prefers power to prestige, however, and keeps
the
> >lesser title to conceal his ambition.
>
> Ruins of Empire, p. 36: "It remains a point of endless bitterness to him
> that all Anuire does not consider him one of the front-runners for the
Iron
> Throne," in reference to Gavin Tael.

His burning bitterness may be something he keeps to himself. He might still
prefer that the world bow down and acknowledge him as god-emperor without
his having to take the risky step of declaring himself a duke at present.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Onwen Agelmore
02-22-2003, 03:17 PM
I think the only title the Baron of Ghoere really wants is Emperor...

DanMcSorley
02-22-2003, 06:39 PM
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Lord Shade wrote:
> I thought Archduke was a "super" title, given to the strongest dukes.
> Avanil was a principality, and its ruler was a prince (kind of like the
> Prince of Wales in Britain? meaning, the realm the crown prince rules
> before he becomes Emperor).
>
> In the novel Iron Throne, was Avan referred to as Archduke Avan, Duke Avan,
> or Prince Avan?

The character in the novel was Duke Kier Avan.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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