BR 3rd edition [Archive] - Birthright.net

Gannd

02-03-2003, 06:42 PM

It`s just Monday give them until at least Saturday. :)

Ken Johnson
Associate Editor, IGN Vault Network
http://rpgvault.ign.com
http://actionvault.ign.com
http://www.ign.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Count Demeter" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: BR 3rd edition [2#1247]

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1247
>
> Count Demeter wrote:
> It must be a little harsh, but here we are in February and the first
draft of BRCS D20 is not yet released.
>
> Is there some problem? Can I be of help?
>
>
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Birthright-L

02-03-2003, 07:08 PM

On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Count Demeter wrote:
> It must be a little harsh, but here we are in February and the first
> draft of BRCS D20 is not yet released.

There was a post here within the last couple of days identifying the 2/8
as their target date.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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spehar

02-03-2003, 07:22 PM

Count Demeter,
Since you're getting a free product that's, by my last copy, 187 pages long, from devoted, knowledgable members of the Birthright community who have devoted their own time to a product which they won't be getting compensated for; it's my suggestion you wait, and thank those who gave a minute of their time to produce what is simply outstanding work. You're not going to like everything you see, but it's simply one the best D&D related products I have ever seen, and well worth the wait.

And if you don't like it, write your own. Don't be harsh, just be respectful and eagerly anxious. ([_]

Mike Spehar

Birthright-L

02-03-2003, 08:11 PM

On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, spehar wrote:
> Since you`re getting a free product that`s, by my last copy, 187
> pages long, from devoted, knowledgable members of the Birthright
> community who have devoted their own time to a product which they
> won`t be getting compensated for; it`s my suggestion you wait, and
> thank those who gave a minute of their time to produce what is simply
> outstanding work. You`re not going to like everything you see, but
> it`s simply one the best D&D related products I have ever seen, and
> well worth the wait.
>
> And if you don`t like it, write your own. Don`t be harsh, just be
> respectful and eagerly anxious. ([_]

The people running this project kept claiming this is a community
product, so maybe you ought to stick to that party line instead of
expecting the community to `be respectful and eagerly anxious`. The
original poster made an innocent inquiry and got about the response I`ve
come to expect from this project: "Yep, we`re late, but we`re the team and
you`re not, so you should thank us."
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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spehar

02-03-2003, 08:23 PM

He wasn't making an innocent inquiry, assuming I'm reading his typo correctly.

This is a Birthright project. This is to make the Birthright world better. I don't give a rats @$$ who does what, but one thing I simply can't stand is someone I feel disrespecting someone else. That's the way I percieved it.

So if I took Counts line was out of context, for that I appologize, but let him tell me I did. If you have any further problems Daniel, please contact me directly and not the board. No brawling in front of anybody.

Mike

Gannd

02-03-2003, 08:25 PM

I did not get that idea. I think the team is being very fair with us.

-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion
[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of daniel mcsorley
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 2:01 PM
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: BR 3rd edition [2#1247]

On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, spehar wrote:
> Since you`re getting a free product that`s, by my last copy, 187
> pages long, from devoted, knowledgable members of the Birthright
> community who have devoted their own time to a product which they
> won`t be getting compensated for; it`s my suggestion you wait, and
> thank those who gave a minute of their time to produce what is simply
> outstanding work. You`re not going to like everything you see, but
> it`s simply one the best D&D related products I have ever seen, and
> well worth the wait.
>
> And if you don`t like it, write your own. Don`t be harsh, just be
> respectful and eagerly anxious. ([_]

The people running this project kept claiming this is a community
product, so maybe you ought to stick to that party line instead of
expecting the community to `be respectful and eagerly anxious`. The
original poster made an innocent inquiry and got about the response I`ve
come to expect from this project: "Yep, we`re late, but we`re the team
and
you`re not, so you should thank us."
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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Arjan

02-03-2003, 08:32 PM

give myself to this weekend aswell. :)
I am finishing up the manual with all the pretty things, but i have to do
this in the evenings after i get home from work. So i can only spend 2 hours
per evening on it.

And......you waited 2 years.......whats another week?? :)

So pleaze flame me all you can, i am the one holding it up now

([_]
Arjan

Mark_Aurel

02-03-2003, 09:04 PM

The people running this project kept claiming this is a community
product, so maybe you ought to stick to that party line instead of
expecting the community to `be respectful and eagerly anxious`. The
original poster made an innocent inquiry and got about the response I`ve
come to expect from this project: "Yep, we`re late, but we`re the team and
you`re not, so you should thank us."
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

Dear mr McSorley,

as far as I'm aware, the full text of the initial draft is finished - what remains is the task of making it look pretty - and, from what I've seen so far, it looks very pretty indeed - Arjan is doing a tremendous job on that aspect. As for the "lateness" of the project, keep in mind two things - 1) the scope of this, and the thoroughness of it; 2) it's a team effort, yes, but in any team, there are individuals responsible for delays - in this case, that would be me, and not so much the others, who have done impeccable jobs in terms of the schedule here. Point being - don't execute everyone for what I'm to blame for (holding things up).

I'm fairly certain you'll enjoy it one way or another. It could be the content, the graphics and pretty look, or it could just be the enjoyment of getting out the good ol' gasonline can and pouring it on.

geeman

02-03-2003, 09:04 PM

At 02:13 PM 2/3/2003 -0600, Ken Johnson wrote:

>>On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, spehar wrote:
>> > Since you`re getting a free product that`s, by my last copy, 187
>> > pages long, from devoted, knowledgable members of the Birthright
>> > community who have devoted their own time to a product which they
>> > won`t be getting compensated for; it`s my suggestion you wait, and
>> > thank those who gave a minute of their time to produce what is simply
>> > outstanding work. You`re not going to like everything you see, but
>> > it`s simply one the best D&D related products I have ever seen, and
>> > well worth the wait.
>> >
>> > And if you don`t like it, write your own. Don`t be harsh, just be
>> > respectful and eagerly anxious. ([_]
>>
>>The people running this project kept claiming this is a community
>>product, so maybe you ought to stick to that party line instead of
>>expecting the community to `be respectful and eagerly anxious`. The
>>original poster made an innocent inquiry and got about the response I`ve
>>come to expect from this project: "Yep, we`re late, but we`re the team
>>and you`re not, so you should thank us."
>
>I did not get that idea. I think the team is being very fair with us.

That post actually was pretty sanctimonious.... I`m not real hip on
someone telling me I should be "eagerly anxious" to read his work. These
guys aren`t J.D. Salinger. I`ll definitely check it out when it comes, but
that message was indicative of some rather high-handed attitudes copped by
a few members of the design team. We should all fall on our knees that
they would "give a minute of their time" etc. No one is going to live or
die by the "official" Birthright conversion. Besides, the "go write your
own" argument is more than a little flacid given that that is already what
anyone who has been playing BR in the years since it went OOP has been
doing anyway, and since the next edition (3.5) of D&D will be out in a few
short months we`ll still have to do that even after this "official" product
comes out. Once again these guys need to chill out. I`m interested in
seeing what they put together but the attitude is making me more and more
skeptical regarding their ability to design a quality product. If it`s an
intelligent, well-written piece of work then great. It`ll be worth the
attitude. So far, however, I haven`t seen a thing that would merit the
egotism.

Gary

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irdeggman

02-03-2003, 09:10 PM

Count, if you can't tell there is a little bit of impatience in trying to get this fisrt shot of a product out for review.

Please don't take any offense in anything being said here. I've found that you don't rush the artist while he's painting (aka Arjan) - his work has been beautiful so far (see the web site itself) and the versions I've seen him come up with while trying to get the formatting (and size) down has pretty much knocked my socks off. Remember I'm only commenting on the layout not the content.

I know that I'm waiting with baited breath for this thing to hit the streets so I can hear (OK read) what people think of it and what direction they wish it to go.

Oh yeah, I predicted several weeks ago that it would be around the 2nd week in February that the product would hit the streets for review/comment, so the date shouldn't be a complete surprise.

Ryegar

02-03-2003, 10:18 PM

Just to bring some happiness back to the board I thought I would chime in and say thanks d20 team. Yes I am kissing ass and dont care what anyone thinks. Now a couple of points, Feb. 8th is 5 days away, my goodness we have waited years without, we had DOOMS work though, 5 more days wont kill ya. Why must people flame someone they dont know personally, does it make people feel better about themselves. I would have liked to been on the d20 team myself but do or did I have time to dedicate to this NO, am I mad NO, Do I think I could have contributed if I had time YES but that all doesn't matter now, It will be out in 5 days. Does my group use our own conversion YES, Will we change after the release, if they rules work for our group YES. I will definitely critic the hell out of it and let the group know what I think, Hopefully so will everyone else. That is where the community comes into the project they are the testers and proofers of this, the current d20 group has stated this is by no means a final version they want input on the work so that it can be made a better project. I definitely know that if I did work on a project like this for FREE I would be a little pissed at those who flame me or the work before seeing it. Well enough already Happy waiting all, Thanks again d20 team and your big egos have a cold one on me.([_] hell make it two([_]

Raesene Andu

02-03-2003, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Shade
Is it possible to join the BR d20 team? I am very interested in the growth
and development of our favorite setting, and would like to be a part if
your team is willing to take on more help.

I can send you some homebrew stuff I`ve developed to give you an idea of my
writing and creative skills. I`ve also made minor contributions to the
Online City Project (that was a few years back) and BR.net.

While the d20 Birthright Rulebook has now been completed, the d20 team will be looking for new members for future projects. When these projects start we will make an annoucement on this board.

Arjan

02-03-2003, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Raesene Andu

Originally posted by Shade
Is it possible to join the BR d20 team? I am very interested in the growth
and development of our favorite setting, and would like to be a part if
your team is willing to take on more help.

I can send you some homebrew stuff I`ve developed to give you an idea of my
writing and creative skills. I`ve also made minor contributions to the
Online City Project (that was a few years back) and BR.net.

While the d20 Birthright Rulebook has now been completed, the d20 team will be looking for new members for future projects. When these projects start we will make an annoucement on this board.

Heck, everyone here is a MEMBER, eiher from the Mailing List or BRnet self.
No one get "hired" or "fired" from the "d20 team". everyone is free to come and go...

Its just that we hope to inspire many of you with these set of rules. Everyone is welcome to help, we just needed something we could built upon.

we certainly do need some extra pair of hand when this initial document is released, many ideas has come forth building it.

i really hope everyone can calm down a bit and just let us all wait until i have finished the damn file.

this thread really demotivated me tonight, and mad me very said.
We are only trying the best we can, but we also have private lifes, and most of you know: life doesnt come for itself.
Most of you have girfriends, wifes and kids.
As my girlfriend is really angry on me because i want to finished the file this weekend.
I am a victom of a big layoff myself, and should spend all my free time to look for a job.
BUT I DONT: I promised to finish the document....

I had to turn my head away from working on the file tonight, watched the new stargate episode to calm down a bit and to cheer me up.

it worked, and now i can go to sleep (past midnight here already)

i indeed took a ([_] , and i go to sleep now...tomorrow jobhunting again..

good night!

Arjan

Count Demeter

02-04-2003, 12:28 AM

Ohhhh man!

I didn't expect it to be like this. So I apologize for those of the D20 Team who took some insult in my earlier question. There was nothing to be mad about, I was just asking a question.

Ansd Arjan, I apologize especially to you, as I didn't expect it to be disrespectful.

Anyway, I am happy that the file is nearing completion and will be released soon. I know how much work it demands, as I'm a writer myself here in Canada.

Long life !

Count Mordhekai Demeter([_] ;)

Mark_Aurel

02-04-2003, 11:31 AM

That post actually was pretty sanctimonious.... I`m not real hip on
someone telling me I should be "eagerly anxious" to read his work. These
guys aren`t J.D. Salinger. I`ll definitely check it out when it comes, but
that message was indicative of some rather high-handed attitudes copped by
a few members of the design team. We should all fall on our knees that
they would "give a minute of their time" etc. No one is going to live or
die by the "official" Birthright conversion. Besides, the "go write your
own" argument is more than a little flacid given that that is already what
anyone who has been playing BR in the years since it went OOP has been
doing anyway, and since the next edition (3.5) of D&D will be out in a few
short months we`ll still have to do that even after this "official" product
comes out. Once again these guys need to chill out. I`m interested in
seeing what they put together but the attitude is making me more and more
skeptical regarding their ability to design a quality product. If it`s an
intelligent, well-written piece of work then great. It`ll be worth the
attitude. So far, however, I haven`t seen a thing that would merit the
egotism.

Gary

Well, I don't think anyone would want to be accused of being J. D. Salinger - didn't that author write awfully boring books that only exist to plague people's English curriculums?

Now, as for the remainder of the post - I'm seeing this from a different angle than you, so for me, this looks more like miscommunication and misunderstanding, than anything else. I think everyone is sensitive about this, in one way or another - for the d20 team, we are all volunteers. No one gets paid. I still think the quality of the end product is pretty high, though it will certainly be improved through more extensive perusal and playtesting - as I hope will happen. Then, next, to stress the point of volunteer work - I'm pretty sure a lot of people would volunteer to work on this; I'm happy to hear criticism of this type from those that volunteer to help out, like Count Demeter did (though I can see that his initial post can be seen in a sarcastic light, I think that trying to think the best of what people are saying, rather than assuming the worst, is a good rule of thumb - right?). "Is there something I can do to help?" is generally far better than "hey, hobos, what's taking so long?" when you're addressing people that, after all, do not get paid, right? Now, before you misunderstand me - I'm not asking for gratitude or, that you bow down and bend over (at least not yet) - all I'm saying is that you should respect that volunteer work like this does not always proceed at an even pace. In the case of other, similar projects, they've died relatively quickly, on grounds of a lack of organization and internal consistency. There's a product here - I think any criticism directed towards the end product will be good criticism. I don't think criticising the team itself is such a good idea, however - though I suppose it is a natural thing to do, given the lack of any other targets to aim those guns at. It can be a vicious circle, really - criticism of the team, expressed overtly or in more veiled terms, leads to a defensive stance, and before you know it, bitter words are exchanged.

What would suck the most for the d20 team is if the end product never gets used in any way or capacity. I doubt that will happen, and I hope it won't. I would only ask, on behalf of myself, but mostly on behalf of the others, that the product be judged on its own merits, and not anything else. It'll be here pretty soon in any case.

Now, as for your concerns with the 3.5e compliancy - I'm going to make a personal note here. I'm a rules geek. I know the D&D rules much better than most people. I'm keeping track of whatever I see they're doing with 3.5e - and I've already noticed a couple of things that I think will need to be retrofitted a bit with the revised edition, once we see how they work/do not work. I don't think creating a "patch" for BR should take much time, nor do I think an extensive patch will be required, though probably a bit of touching up. I think that there'll probably be at least as much change due to community feedback once the playtest version is posted, as there will be due to the revised edition. I also hope this made some sense, and did not come across as unduly arrogant, elitistic, cliquey, egotistic, overbearing, nor even lecturing, but merely as a statement of my opinion and belief about what will and will not happen.

Count Demeter

02-04-2003, 12:35 PM

Good.

Any writing processes is a lot of work and a lot saddening if I might say. When the BRCS D20 will come out, all the D20 Team must be prepared to receive more and more criticism then good words. I know, I'm working currently on a project at my office and my first draft was critiqued and refuse for some hurting reasons. But, my colleagues told me that it wasn't their final word and that their opinion seemed harsh but it is necessary for a writer to produce a good if excellent work.

I know that some of you will take it easily but some will not. If it happens, I can offer you a good tip: Don't go to revise it immediately. Wait until the mood comes down. Especialy in this case where you are writing it for free.

So, if I can be of any help, tell me. I can offer my service as a translator to offer the community a french version.

Thank you for your work !

Count Mordhekai Demeter([_] ;)

ryancaveney

02-04-2003, 04:30 PM

On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote:

> That post actually was pretty sanctimonious.... I`m not real hip on
> someone telling me I should be "eagerly anxious" to read his work....
> Once again these guys need to chill out.

Agreed. As you say, it`s way too late for eagerness or anxiety. I`ve
also never met a rule set I didn`t want to change, so this will be yet
another source of ideas to plunder, edit, or ignore. It might be very
good work, but I can only judge that when I (finally!) see it. Its
"officialness" means exactly nothing to me.

> So far, however, I haven`t seen a thing that would merit the egotism.

So far, we haven`t been permitted to see anything at all.

On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Mark_Aurel wrote:

> quality of the end product is pretty high, though it will certainly be
> improved through more extensive perusal and playtesting

Which IMO would have been improved much more if you`d done it all out in
the open to begin with, but that bridge was burned long ago.

> "Is there something I can do to help?" is generally far better than
> "hey, hobos, what`s taking so long?"

Well, sure. But for ages and ages now, whenever anyone has asked whether
they can help, the answer has been a resounding, "No! We`ve already got
too many people!" That means the only thing left is to nag you until you
produce something to which you will allow the rest of us to contribute.

> when you`re addressing people that, after all, do not get paid, right?
> Now, before you misunderstand me - I`m not asking for gratitude or,
> that you bow down and bend over (at least not yet)

Except that`s exactly how it sounds, whether you intend it or not. All
this talk of "we`re not getting paid" makes me reasses the whole scheme,
and think that what`s really going on is that the payment you`re after is
having your names on an "official" product, and you are so insistent that
no one else should be allowed to join you so that you can keep the credit
all to yourselves.

I realize this is a rather uncharitable thought, but it had actually not
occurred to me until your repeated statements that your lack of payment
means we should not criticize your lack of openness to communication.

> I don`t think criticising the team itself is such a good idea, however
> - though I suppose it is a natural thing to do, given the lack of any
> other targets to aim those guns at.

Which is entirely the team`s fault. This list is always happy to
criticize any idea that comes along -- but you have consistently said
nothing but, "We`re coming up with great ideas but we won`t tell you about
them for a long time," which naturally leads to criticism of nothing but
*that* idea.

> What would suck the most for the d20 team is if the end product never
> gets used in any way or capacity. I doubt that will happen, and I hope
> it won`t.

Another tired old argument: IMO, the way you have conducted the work to
this point makes that fear more likely to be realized, rather than less.

> I think that there`ll probably be at least as much change due to
> community feedback once the playtest version is posted, as there will
> be due to the revised edition.

I hope there`s a great deal more!

Ryan Caveney

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Cobos

02-04-2003, 05:16 PM

Arjan wrote:

>Heck, everyone here is a MEMBER, eiher from the Mailing List or BRnet self.
>No one get "hired" or "fired" from the "d20 team". everyone is free to come and go...
>
>Its just that we hope to inspire many of you with these set of rules. Everyone is welcome to help, we just needed something we could built upon.
>
>we certainly do need some extra pair of hand when this initial document is released, many ideas has come forth building it.
>
>i really hope everyone can calm down a bit and just let us all wait until i have finished the damn file.
>
>this thread really demotivated me tonight, and mad me very said.
>We are only trying the best we can, but we also have private lifes, and most of you know: life doesnt come for itself.
>Most of you have girfriends, wifes and kids.
>As my girlfriend is really angry on me because i want to finished the file this weekend.
>I am a victom of a big layoff myself, and should spend all my free time to look for a job.
>BUT I DONT: I promised to finish the document....
>
>I had to turn my head away from working on the file tonight, watched the new stargate episode to calm down a bit and to cheer me up.
>
>it worked, and now i can go to sleep (past midnight here already)
>
>i indeed took a ([_] , and i go to sleep now...tomorrow jobhunting again..
>
>good night!
>
>Arjan
>
>
>
I beleive the problem is that most of the people that agree with the
method used (keeping the process
within a small comitee) are the lurking ones :)
At least that is my postition :)

Sindre
Hostmaster birthright.net

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Mark_Aurel

02-04-2003, 05:36 PM

Well, sure. But for ages and ages now, whenever anyone has asked whether
they can help, the answer has been a resounding, "No! We`ve already got
too many people!" That means the only thing left is to nag you until you
produce something to which you will allow the rest of us to contribute.

Okay, this is the part where one might argue quite a bit what is the better method with which to proceed - however, in general, IMO, the more efficient method which to conduct a project of this type is generally to have the work done by a small group of people, and then reviewed and tested by a larger group of people. This will generally maintain a tight focus on design, while not creating needless "group and subgroup" delays. To use three good examples of why the model that was used, was adopted and kept: 1) The old "BR 3e Yahoo project." Never came anything out of it apart from big debates, and then it just died out when no one was in charge and keeping the focus tight. 2) The Dark Sun project - they've been working much longer than we have, with less overall result. I've looked at some of the material they have produced, and it is of mixed quality and vision (as is, of course, the BR book, but, I believe, less so). They never seem to get anything definite done. 3) The Birthright mailing list itself. There's never any real consensus about anything, it seems - possibly except this, which would seem a bit ironic.

The point is, in some cases, there are different equally viable mechanical solutions - where using one solution has no real benefit over another; in this case, a more consensus-based approach would drag out longer. A larger group would have larger discussions, without necessarily arriving at different or better conclusions. Organizationally, I think the group we've had has been of approximately the right size. There have been several members of the mailing list that were invited, but declined to do volunteer work, and actually stated so pretty up front. Others have had to drop away, due to pressing concerns in other areas of life. And then there's a part that has done mostly arguing and talking, and not contributed substantially to the document. More people on a project like this usually means more dead weight, relatively speaking. What happened to other projects of a similar type, with a different approach should speak for itself.

Except that`s exactly how it sounds, whether you intend it or not. All
this talk of "we`re not getting paid" makes me reasses the whole scheme,
and think that what`s really going on is that the payment you`re after is
having your names on an "official" product, and you are so insistent that
no one else should be allowed to join you so that you can keep the credit
all to yourselves.

There have been several invitations extended to members of the mailing list, which were declined for various reasons; Gary was one, there was also a couple of others that didn't want to, or couldn't, work on this project - other than them, the people that were initially invited were those had previously actually written the conversion manuals that were found on the internet - i.e. that had actually created something besides huge volumes of mail. The members of the mailing list that were invited were mainly those that have been relatively big contributors, with a decent proven record of understanding the rules. In retrospect, there's a couple of list members that might've made good contributors that we did not attmept to invite - probably mainly for reasons of lack of "visibility." There has been no insistence on anyone's part that the d20 team be kept closed; rather, we've tried to keep it coherent, and not something you can join and then skip ship the next month; that's a recipe for not getting anything done in the long run. The reference to this not being paid work is plain - it *is* volunteer work, and not everyone is interested in doing that. Most people are happy to just play the game, and maybe fiddle a little with the mechanics on their own.

I'm not really opposed to a discussion on method and how to conduct a project such as this at all - as long as it is a proper discussion, with real arguments, rather than criticism on what appears to be a more personal level, and speculation about motives that is entirely untrue, at least for where I'm standing. Well, not entirely - on some base level, your speculation in motives is a very human one - overall, though, I don't think anyone has been really thinking about it that way - it's been about getting the book done, more than getting the "credit." If it were about getting the "credit," I don't think any new members would've been invited, ever.

I realize this is a rather uncharitable thought, but it had actually not
occurred to me until your repeated statements that your lack of payment
means we should not criticize your lack of openness to communication.

Now I believe you are misinterpreting me. You'll need to define openness to communication a bit, I think, because in this context, it can mean a number of things. I don't think that it was ever really in my mind to equate volunteer work with the "right to work behind closed doors and act as a secret society;" those are two different issues - how to conduct the work, and who does the work. My point is that the way you are criticizing is borderline between the two, and that I think you should make a cleaner attempt at sticking to criticism of the process, rather than the people involved. I'd rather debate on the basis of how the process could've been improved, and I'd like to see some arguments and examples, in a more civilized and coherent fashion.

geeman

02-04-2003, 05:50 PM

At 12:31 PM 2/4/2003 +0100, Mark_Aurel wrote:

>Well, I don`t think anyone would want to be accused of being J. D.
>Salinger - didn`t that author write awfully boring books that only exist
>to plague people`s English curriculums?

That was a joke, right? Please someone tell me that was a joke....

Gary

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Malice3679

02-04-2003, 06:31 PM

> >Well, I don`t think anyone would want to be accused of being J. D.
> >Salinger - didn`t that author write awfully boring books that only exist
> >to plague people`s English curriculums?
>
> That was a joke, right? Please someone tell me that was a joke....
>
> Gary

Or possibly an opinion.

Tommy

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geeman

02-04-2003, 06:51 PM

At 06:36 PM 2/4/2003 +0100, Mark Aurel wrote:

>I`d rather debate on the basis of how the process could`ve been
>improved, and I`d like to see some arguments and examples, in a more
>civilized and coherent fashion.

I`ve a few suggestions. First of all, let me note that I do support the
basic thinking behind how the project was organized. Too many cooks can
(and usually do) spoil the broth, so keeping it limited makes a certain
sense. Also let me note that it is somewhat difficult to give substantial
examples and advice given that the design team`s methods have been pretty
secretive. I teach the occasional English writing class, edit graduate
papers and articles for some academic journals, so I have a few insights
into how the writing process works, but I can`t speak intelligently on how
that can be served since I know so little about the actual
processes/organization methods being employed. Having said that, here are
a few ideas:

First and foremost, appoint a spokesman. The differing voices coming out
of the design team has led to a lot of confusion, and more than a little
annoyance from the community. The spokesman could act as liason to the BR
community, which would prevent a lot of this confusion AND allow the
members of the group to concentrate on writing the project rather than
answering questions--which is something that people involved in the project
appear to be loathe to do--so appointing someone to speak to the project
not only take the pressure to do so off everyone else, but would assist the
BR community in digesting the goals and processes being used. The
spokesman could also give progress reports, which has been something that
lot of people have been asking for. I know this is a really shaky thing,
since the writing process isn`t an assembly line--most people who read such
"progress reports" really understand that, but I assure you even some vague
impression on the part of the spokesman would be eaten up by the readers.

Second, involve the BR community. Not only does it offend some people that
they are not involved in the process, but it seems wasteful to have what a
marketing manager would long for on his best day at your fingertips and
then not use it. I think you can do this and still keep the team down to a
reasonable size very easily by simply having the aforementioned spokesman
describe what is happening. "We`re working on the description for the
Build action. Anyone have ideas on that?" Plenty of people will offer up
ideas. They don`t have to be used in the finished product, of course, they
need not even necessarily be read by every member of the team, but I am
quite sure you`ll get some decent. Upon occasion a person in the community
will even present you with pieces of first draft quality material that
needs only be edited for format and various style. I keep a large file of
such material, much of which cut and pasted straight out of posts and given
a little modification to fit in with the rest. I can`t guarantee that
you`d get useful information, but it would cost almost nothing to
potentially get whole sections written.

Third, read other D20 products and emulate them. WoT, Star Wars and
several other campaign settings have come out with what amounts to the
progression of 3e`s "open source" design philosophy. That needs to be paid
attention to such projects so that the conversion when it comes out doesn`t
already lag behind the rest of the game.

Fourth, give yourself some release dates. I don`t know if there has been a
"work quota" or other incremental amount of progress established for the
team--and setting some sort of quota on the work of volunteers doesn`t
always work--but there are a few methods of doing this that might
help. There`s no single way of doing this sort of thing, but one method
employed by an editor I worked with is to assign a release date after the
project is "half" finished. Take the amount of time that it has take so
far and triple it, and make that the release date.

Gary

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Mark_Aurel

02-04-2003, 08:15 PM

Thanks for a considerate post. Let me address the points, in order;

1) Spokesman - we do have such a system, which is one reason why the d20 team as a whole can seem uncommunicative - we've tried to restrict posting on certain topics, so as to not contradict ourselves, not get in fights with each other in public (I still have bruises after that last one behind those mighty closed iron doors), and generally not post something that hasn't been "finalized." Arjan is the anointed spokesman, as I recall, so take what everyone else says on behalf of the team to be more of a personal opinion. Except possibly Doctor Doom - he bows to no man.

2) Yeah, I agree on this as well - we generally do follow the debates in public fora, and most things have been debated at one time or another. At one point, I was making some polls and asking some questions like this - I think that was before the mailing list/forum merge, though, and before the spokesman model was properly introduced. Getting the community _too_ involved has some of the aforementioned problems with too many cooks, though - but overall, I think it's been a "we try to listen, but not say too much" deal - this also ties in back with the spokesman system, and not trying to send mixed signals part. The main thing is that different chapters get assigned to different authors, so the spokesman can't know exactly what's being worked on at one time - asking a question such as "what do you think about domain rules?" would be too broad. There are some community contributions under consideration, actually - I don't feel at liberty to say anything more about that matter right now, but it's generally much easier to look at finished materials as ideas, than it is to keep track of half-formed ideas through big debates.

3) I think we do this as well - I personally keep a pretty well-stocked library of d20 products, and there's been some discussions about ideas from various products. Overall, though, "d20" is a bit of a misnomer in this context, as we're really using the core standard D&D rules, and not introducing things like wound/vitality points, or whatever.

4) This is the ickiest point - some people have found other priorities very pressing at points, having to leave half-finished work, or no work at all, which have produced delays. I'm guilty, so shoot me; the others that have written material have been very punctual and reliable. The book is finished for playtesting now, though - there are still parts that I know need revision or isn't quite as finished as we'd like, but that can hopefully be improved much upon along with item #2.

One thing that will definitely need feedback and talkback is the monster CRs and stats - once the monsters get posted, I'll make a point of trying to get feedback on this point in particular.

In retrospect, of course, there's always things that can be done better - I think that much of what you've addressed is already scheduled for "substantial improvement" during the playtest phase. Once again, thanks for a good post that addressed what I think is the topic here.

geeman

02-04-2003, 09:32 PM

At 09:15 PM 2/4/2003 +0100, Mark_Aurel wrote:

>Thanks for a considerate post. Let me address the points, in order;
>
>1) Spokesman - we do have such a system, which is one reason why the d20
>team as a whole can seem uncommunicative - we`ve tried to restrict
>posting on certain topics, so as to not contradict ourselves, not get in
>fights with each other in public (I still have bruises after that last one
>behind those mighty closed iron doors), and generally not post something
>that hasn`t been "finalized." Arjan is the anointed spokesman, as I
>recall, so take what everyone else says on behalf of the team to be more
>of a personal opinion. Except possibly Doctor Doom - he bows to no man.

Let me extrapolate in, perhaps, a bit more definite terms. Appoint a
spokesman AND have him be the only person making public posts on the
subject. It`s too strange and confusing to have several different people
chiming in on what amounts to the same topic, particularly since they seem
to be expressing differing viewpoints. Being the spokesman should probably
be that person`s only interaction with the project. He should be, in a
sense, the first reader, and he can keep everyone informed as to what`s
going on. His mandate should be to not reveal actual game mechanics, but
to describe what is being worked on and how it`s going, and use that as a
gauge for topics the community can discuss. When something good and/or
appropriate to what is being worked on by the team this spokesman could
point it out to the person doing the work.

>[Regarding setting a deadline.] This is the ickiest point - some people
>have found other priorities very pressing at points, having to leave
>half-finished work, or no work at all, which have produced delays. I`m
>guilty, so shoot me; the others that have written material have been very
>punctual and reliable.

Yeah, that one`s tough. I don`t know if you guys already had some sort of
system in place or not, but my point is that one _should_ come up with some
sort of game plan in advance. It needn`t necessarily be the one I
suggested, and no one should necessarily be locked into a particular date,
but having some idea of a timeline is often very helpful.

>The book is finished for playtesting now, though - there are still parts
>that I know need revision or isn`t quite as finished as we`d like, but
>that can hopefully be improved much upon along with item #2.

Exactly. I think the team could adopt one or two of those suggestions for
the revision and would make the following additional suggestions.

1. No one on the team should respond to critics on the conversion except
the designated spokesman for at least a week after it is out.

2. In post-playtesting revision, do a little round robin with the
individual projects. Whoever worked on one section should NOT work on the
revision of it, so as to give it at least another set of hands and eyes.

Gary

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Birthright-L

02-04-2003, 09:32 PM

On Mon, 3 Feb 2003, Mark_Aurel wrote:
> as far as I`m aware, the full text of the initial draft is finished -
> what remains is the task of making it look pretty

And, by the way, why is this a goal for a draft release? You`re wasting
weeks typesetting a final version of a product which will need three or
four revisions. Why?
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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Mark_Aurel

02-04-2003, 09:44 PM

> as far as I`m aware, the full text of the initial draft is finished -
> what remains is the task of making it look pretty

And, by the way, why is this a goal for a draft release? You`re wasting
weeks typesetting a final version of a product which will need three or
four revisions. Why?
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

Well, I'm sure you'll be happy to know, then, that the objectives have changed, and Arjan is now resetting the downloads section at birthright.net, rather than finishing the layout. It should be up by tomorrow morning, European time, instead of this weekend, given, of course, the precaution that something doesn't go wrong. I hope that this will be satisfactory in any case, and I'm looking forward to reading your comments on the actual work once posted.

Mark_Aurel

02-04-2003, 09:54 PM

Let me extrapolate in, perhaps, a bit more definite terms. Appoint a
spokesman AND have him be the only person making public posts on the
subject.

That was the initial idea - however, it's tricky as well, if the spokesman has to be absent for a period, or a post seems to require an urgent response - is it better, then, to maintain the sanctity of the system, and seem uncommunicative and arrogant, or to make a reply that would've been made anyway? I think the notion of a "first reader" is a good idea, and it's one that I'll try and use in the future; at this point, I think the idea is of limited use for the remainder of this project.

Exactly. I think the team could adopt one or two of those suggestions for
the revision and would make the following additional suggestions.

1. No one on the team should respond to critics on the conversion except
the designated spokesman for at least a week after it is out.

2. In post-playtesting revision, do a little round robin with the
individual projects. Whoever worked on one section should NOT work on the
revision of it, so as to give it at least another set of hands and eyes.

I think these are meritable suggestions as well; as for item #1, I will personally try to read the feedback first, answer questions and clear up inconsistencies and make sure that people aren't misunderstanding things, but not get involved in any arguments; I suspect the other members of the team will do the same, as I think all of us follow the public discussions pretty closely, but rarely make responses to anything. I believe it's called lurking. As for item #2, I'll bring the suggestion up, and see what comes of it. I think it's a good idea; the only potential problem I see with it is that it may somewhat dilute the vision of whomever made that section initially, and make things messier.

Birthright-L

02-04-2003, 10:53 PM

On Tue, 4 Feb 2003, Mark_Aurel wrote:
> Well, I`m sure you`ll be happy to know, then, that the objectives
> have changed, and Arjan is now resetting the downloads section at
> birthright.net, rather than finishing the layout. It should be up by
> tomorrow morning, European time, instead of this weekend, given, of
> course, the precaution that something doesn`t go wrong. I hope that
> this will be satisfactory in any case, and I`m looking forward to
> reading your comments on the actual work once posted.

Tomorrow morning European time is about 4 am Eastern, right? I can stay
up that late.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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geeman

02-04-2003, 11:15 PM

At 10:54 PM 2/4/2003 +0100, Mark_Aurel wrote:

>
Appoint a spokesman AND have him be the only person making public
>posts on the
>subject.
>
>That was the initial idea - however, it`s tricky as well, if the
>spokesman has to be absent for a period, or a post seems to require an
>urgent response - is it better, then, to maintain the sanctity of the
>system, and seem uncommunicative and arrogant, or to make a reply that
>would`ve been made anyway?

Off the cuff, I`d say that if the spokesman was going to be absent for a
period then a pro temp person would be appropriate, and if something is
_urgent_ then, sure, other people could respond. I don`t know what kind of
emergency situations might arise, but a zero tolerance rule isn`t a good
idea anyway.

Gary

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Mark_Aurel

02-04-2003, 11:37 PM

Tomorrow morning European time is about 4 am Eastern, right? I can stay
up that late.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

I don't think you'll need to do that. You can go download it now, if you like.

Count Demeter

02-05-2003, 12:09 AM

The only problem is that no link in the download section is functionning...

Mark_Aurel

02-05-2003, 12:30 AM

Curious. Could be some bug; Arjan just redid the downloads today.

Maybe it'd work if you tried these links:

http://www.birthright.net/download.php

http://birthright.net/download/brcs-playtest.pdf

I got mine off the Norwegian mirror; at least that one seemed to work for me - haven't tried the other mirror sites yet.

Eosin the Red

02-05-2003, 12:52 AM

> >
Appoint a spokesman AND have him be the only person making public posts on the subject.

> >That was the initial idea - however, it`s tricky as well, if the spokesman has to be absent for a period, or a post seems to require an urgent response - is it better, then, to maintain the sanctity of the system, and seem uncommunicative and arrogant, or to make a reply that would`ve been made anyway?

> Off the cuff, I`d say that if the spokesman was going to be absent for a period then a pro temp person would be appropriate, and if something is _urgent_ then, sure, other people could respond. I don`t know what kind of emergency situations might arise, but a zero tolerance rule isn`t a good idea anyway.

I think this is all academic at this point but may have value for future projects. I do not know who your voice is and that speaks volumes by itself. In a similar project, I referred to our community voice as the "pimp" in e-mails. That was his job - go out and keep interest in our wares up. It was not to defend positions or handle unruley fans. The situtions are a little different but have allot of similarities.

The is nothing so important that it cannot wait a few days when it comes to volunteer projects. If someone asks a question - it should always be answered by your pimp. If someone is insistant - just note that XXXXX is gone for a few days but that you have sent him/her an e-mail and they will address it when the get back.

The community should forget who is on the team. Never once should a post begin with "As a member of Team X, I think." Desired or not you are equating your voice to that of the team. Post as yourselves with your own opinions, do not fall into the trap of "an appeal to authority."

We were over a month late - by and large there was little complaint. The pimp noted things and started a contest or two. We elected to do a few sneak peaks on my website - 1 a week until the editing was done. We never discussed why we were late - just that we were and then we gave people something to do while they waited on us.

The most interesting and hard part came after the release. Everybody has a natural instinct to defend themselves and everybody believes that their work has merit. When the less tactful fans started the "you suck" fest, even some of the milder members of the netbook team got pretty testy. Even though the overwhelming response was positive - it was the few blunt negatives that generated the 3 threads that got the most attention. I watched some of the others flounder and took the diplomatic approach (very hard, since I can be as tacky and condescending as the best of them).It worked very well. So, acknowledge the critism and thank the person for taking the time to write it and then let it drop. You will get much further into constructive stuff using this approach. Squaring off against a bystander flinging mud - only gets you dirty.

Anyhoo,

This has generated allot of flack that never had to be. We can all learn lessons and do better.

Eosin the Red - who has offered to help in his own way.

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Eosin the Red

02-05-2003, 01:12 AM

It is not at the Mabinogin link yet. I am at work and cannot access the internet -only e-mail- so until midnight you will download a really spiffy adventure for the Wheel of Time RPG.

I do not know if that is one of the links - available but I think it is.

Eosin_the_red

>
> From: Mark_Aurel <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
> Date: 2003/02/04 Tue PM 07:30:15 EST
> To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
> Subject: Re: BR 3rd edition [2#1247]
>
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1247
>
> Mark_Aurel wrote:
> Curious. Could be some bug; Arjan just redid the downloads today.
>
> Maybe it`d work if you tried these links:
>
> http://www.birthright.net/download.php
>
> http://birthright.net/download/brcs-playtest.pdf
>
> I got mine off the Norwegian mirror; at least that one seemed to work for me - haven`t tried the other mirror sites yet.
>
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Peter Lubke

02-05-2003, 01:38 AM

On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 03:50, Sindre Cools Berg wrote:

Arjan wrote:

>
I beleive the problem is that most of the people that agree with the
method used (keeping the process
within a small comitee) are the lurking ones :)
At least that is my postition :)

I suspect that most of the people that agree with the method ARE in the
committee.

It`s not considered good business practice for the very reasons that
have happened on the list (among certain others). Developing a project
of any kind which has a large number of stakeholders without an open
communication plan is a recipe for trouble - during and after. That`s
not my opinion - it`s the opinion of the project management body of
knowledge - and other management doctrines.

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Peter Lubke

02-05-2003, 02:16 AM

On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 05:14, Tommy Brownell wrote:

> >Well, I don`t think anyone would want to be accused of being J. D.
> >Salinger - didn`t that author write awfully boring books that only exist
> >to plague people`s English curriculums?
>
> That was a joke, right? Please someone tell me that was a joke....
>
> Gary

Or possibly an opinion.

What? Salinger was a joke? -- I always wondered ...

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Peter Lubke

02-05-2003, 02:16 AM

On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 04:36, Mark_Aurel wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1247

Mark_Aurel wrote:

Well, sure. But for ages and ages now, whenever anyone has asked whether
they can help, the answer has been a resounding, "No! We`ve already got
too many people!" That means the only thing left is to nag you until you
produce something to which you will allow the rest of us to contribute.

Okay, this is the part where one might argue quite a bit what is the better method
with which to proceed - however, in general, IMO, the more efficient method which
to conduct a project of this type is generally to have the work done by a small
group of people, and then reviewed and tested by a larger group of people.

Efficient yes, effective not necessarily. I would have thought that the
project goal was to create something that would be acceptable to the
widest range of the Birthright community - not simply acceptable in the
eyes of the project group.

This means that: whether you like it or not - there are a great number
of people "involved" in the project in at least so far as that they are
interested in the outcomes. They may not be interested in the process
(doing the work), but the presentation of a complete product in the face
of almost no consultation is unlikely to find favorable results. The
task of managing (the level of their input and involvement) and
informing those people that is one of the most daunting tasks of a
project like this -- who was appointed to do so?

To say that: "When we release you can review" is not going to work well
either. The project team will (and has shown so by comments on the list)
invest personal feelings toward their work both individually and
collectively (which is a natural and understandable consequence). They
will not take kindly to criticism of the "finished" product. Of course,
in this case it will be all their own fault - producing a product the
right way (efficient) does not ensure you produce the right product
(effective). [Read the whole para again before jumping to your own
defense]

Except that`s exactly how it sounds, whether you intend it or not. All
this talk of "we`re not getting paid" makes me reasses the whole scheme,
and think that what`s really going on is that the payment you`re after is
having your names on an "official" product, and you are so insistent that
no one else should be allowed to join you so that you can keep the credit
all to yourselves.

There have been several invitations extended to members of the mailing list, which
were declined for various reasons; Gary was one, there was also a couple of others
that didn`t want to, or couldn`t, work on this project - other than them, the
people that were initially invited were those had previously actually written the
conversion manuals that were found on the internet

Very condescending of "you". You`re really just proving his point.

But seriously, who decided? Somewhere, somehow, someone (one person)
made the first decision on who was on and who was not. This person may
still be calling the shots or they may not. Who is the man? (or woman)

Secondly, the team that does the work has a perfect right to having
their names in a blaze of glory - although there won`t be much glory if
the product doesn`t turn out to be widely acceptable.

I realize this is a rather uncharitable thought, but it had actually not
occurred to me until your repeated statements that your lack of payment
means we should not criticize your lack of openness to communication.

Now I believe you are misinterpreting me. You`ll need to define openness to
communication a bit, I think, because in this context, it can mean a number of
things. I don`t think that it was ever really in my mind to equate volunteer work
with the "right to work behind closed doors and act as a secret society;" those
are two different issues - how to conduct the work, and who does the work. My point
is that the way you are criticizing is borderline between the two, and that I think
you should make a cleaner attempt at sticking to criticism of the process, rather
than the people involved. I`d rather debate on the basis of how the process could`ve
been improved, and I`d like to see some arguments and examples, in a more civilized
and coherent fashion.

Communication is part of the process - or should be.
Context - okay since you`re an amateur. (not meant to be insulting)

What have the group released so far?
Have you released any of the following:
group objectives, (what you are trying to achieve)
scoping documents, (the boundaries of the work encompassed)
guiding principles, (decisions on keeping a cohesive and consistent
approach)
group discussion notes, (points of contention, minutes of meetings)
schedules,
progress reports, (what`s happening, where you are, when things are
expected, what`s holding up)

These are all things that may be of interest to the wider community.
Yes, it is more work. But it`s also an invaluable tool even within the
working group. The collation and collection of information would have
staved off innumerable discussions when it comes time to review, rework
etc. It`s important to know not just what went into the final product,
but what was considered for inclusion as well (and why it was not
included at that time).

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