Where can I pre-order BirthRight d20 online?

[Mainboard]

Where can I pre-order the d20 BR book? Either that or where will it be available? Thanks ahead of time.

[Arjan]

You wont have to pre order BRCS D20
it will be available as a free downloadable document right here on BRnet.

estimated release will be within the first week of february, official announcement will follow.

Arjan

[Mainboard]

You guys are great. BTW I cant wait until I try the new domain rules. One question though, are war cards still used or is it a diffrent system?

[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by Mainboard
You guys are great. BTW I cant wait until I try the new domain rules. One question though, are war cards still used or is it a diffrent system?

I don't want to pre-empt the release of the BRCS here, so all I'll say is that you can use warcards, but it is not esential.

The chapter on warfare is likely to be the one that causes most of the comment, along with the domain rules. I think the war rules, as they have been presented in the BRCS, are well written and well thought out, it remains to be seen what everyone else thinks.

Anyway, not long to wait now, the BRCS just has to go through final editing and formatting and it will be ready to release to the BR community for comment, discussion, and argument.

[Mainboard]

Hehe I hope I dont have to use the war or navel cards. I have them all but I would rather have a simplified system to use. Also I hope the domain rules are involved, I really liked domains but I wanted a better system for it.

[Raesene Andu]

Personally, I haven't used the war cards for years. They sit gathering dust atop the bookcase in my study. I think most people will agree that they war cards system was cumbersome, and results in battles that took hours.

I just ran a quick test battle using the new rules between 2 units of infantry and 1 unit of undead. Battle took just under 2 minutes (or 4 minutes if you include the time it took to look up the rules, find my dice and locate a pen and piece of paper)
Net result of the battle was 1 dead infantry, 1 damaged infantry (1 hit), 1 dead undead legion. The infantry very lucky this time.
Materials required 3 d20s (could use just 1), and 1 scrap piece of paper.

[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2003-01-30 at 12:50, Raesene Andu wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1233

Raesene Andu wrote:
Personally, I haven`t used the war cards for years. They sit gathering dust atop the bookcase in my study. I think most people will agree that they war cards system was cumbersome, and results in battles that took hours.

I just ran a quick test battle using the new rules between 2 units of infantry and 1 unit of undead. Battle took just under 2 minutes (or 4 minutes if you include the time it took to look up the rules, find my dice and locate a pen and piece of paper)
Net result of the battle was 1 dead infantry, 1 damaged infantry (1 hit), 1 dead undead legion. The infantry very lucky this time.
Materials required 3 d20s (could use just 1), and 1 scrap piece of paper.

It`s interesting that people prefer large battle systems that are quick
to resolve rather than taking hours, but prefer personal combat systems
so close to simulation that a general melee with 20 combatants takes an
hour or more to resolve. The actual time (game duration) of the latter
would be minutes while the former could be half a day.


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[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:
> It`s interesting that people prefer large battle systems that are quick
> to resolve rather than taking hours, but prefer personal combat systems
> so close to simulation that a general melee with 20 combatants takes an
> hour or more to resolve. The actual time (game duration) of the latter
> would be minutes while the former could be half a day.

You don`t really have the personal investment with the pretend army your
pretend character hired, as you do with the character himself. You`ve
detailed the PC and played him for a lot of hours, you want to feel like a
battle he takes place in is complex and that he has a significant effect
on the outcome. Thus the simulation. The 200 faceless guys? Eh, give
`em a broadside of d20s and let`s move on with the plot.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by Birthright-L
You don`t really have the personal investment with the pretend army your
pretend character hired, as you do with the character himself. You`ve
detailed the PC and played him for a lot of hours, you want to feel like a
battle he takes place in is complex and that he has a significant effect
on the outcome. Thus the simulation. The 200 faceless guys? Eh, give
`em a broadside of d20s and let`s move on with the plot.


Even more so with Birthright, where your character spends more time running his domain than adventuring (in game time, not necessarily in real time). I guess there is something more personal about hand to hand combat involving you character and a few mates against a horde of enemys over mass combat involving potentially thousands of soldiers of either side.

That said, the d20 Birthright rules do allow for detailed battles if that is what you prefer. Personally I don't like wasting time on the battles, so the broadside of d20s isn't far off the mark for what my battles will look like. Basically, you can put as much effort into mass combat as you like, with minitures for each unit, a detailed table-top map of the battle site, and whatever else you think you need, or you can just jot down the locations of the units on a piece of paper like I did and roll a series of d20s until one side dies, surrenders, or wins.

The rules should also be fairly easy to pick up I think. At least I understood them fairly quickly, and that is good for me. The rules do mention war cards, but you don't need them, and can use minitures, counters, coins, a piece of paper and a pencil, etc. All you need is something to represent the unit, its stats, and its current location on the battle field. By seperating the unit's stats from the war card, the old war card system is no longer needed.

Anyway, just wait until the rules are out, then you can argue about them all you like :)

[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2003-01-30 at 13:48, daniel mcsorley wrote:

On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:
> It`s interesting that people prefer large battle systems that are quick
> to resolve rather than taking hours, but prefer personal combat systems
> so close to simulation that a general melee with 20 combatants takes an
> hour or more to resolve. The actual time (game duration) of the latter
> would be minutes while the former could be half a day.

You don`t really have the personal investment with the pretend army your
pretend character hired, as you do with the character himself. You`ve
detailed the PC and played him for a lot of hours, you want to feel like a
battle he takes place in is complex and that he has a significant effect
on the outcome. Thus the simulation. The 200 faceless guys? Eh, give
`em a broadside of d20s and let`s move on with the plot.
--

I usually want to know the answer to the question: "Did I do the right
thing? (make a correct decision) -- should I have cut and run instead?,
maybe negotiation was a better option - combat is so unpredictable
perhaps I should have tried to bribe my way past first - am I really as
mean a motherf**ker as I thought or is this guy just better?" - I don`t
want to have a long drawn out personal melee (and BTW wait around while
all the other players are taking their long drawn out melee).

I want to know ASAP what happens so I can make the next important
decision: What to do with the vanquished, or how to deal with getting
dealt with (having lost), who to attack next, etc.

I also don`t expect that this determination will take a significantly
different amount of time simply because my character has more
experience.

Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2003-01-30 at 14:30, Raesene Andu wrote:

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1233

Raesene Andu wrote:

Originally posted by Birthright-L
You don`t really have the personal investment with the pretend army your
pretend character hired, as you do with the character himself. You`ve
detailed the PC and played him for a lot of hours, you want to feel like a
battle he takes place in is complex and that he has a significant effect
on the outcome. Thus the simulation. The 200 faceless guys? Eh, give
`em a broadside of d20s and let`s move on with the plot.


Even more so with Birthright, where your character spends more time running his
domain than adventuring (in game time, not necessarily in real time).

You guys have regents that involve themselves in personal melee?
How....... interesting.




That said, the d20 Birthright rules do allow for detailed battles if that
is what you prefer. Personally I don`t like wasting time on the battles,
so the broadside of d20s isn`t far off the mark for what my battles will
look like. Basically, you can put as much effort into mass combat as you
like, with minitures for each unit, a detailed table-top map of the battle
site, and whatever else you think you need, or you can just jot down the
locations of the units on a piece of paper like I did and roll a series
of d20s until one side dies, surrenders, or wins.

What about runs away? - or do you deem that as the same as wins?

But yeah, I like to have a little more feel for the tactics - especially if the
regent or lieutenant is accompanying them. But again, the result is what is
important from the domain perspective not the detail - although trying to
conserve troops is also a consideration.

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[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by Peter Lubke
What about runs away? - or do you deem that as the same as wins?


I'd consider running away to be the same as surrendering, hence losing. Of course, that is just a personal opinion, I can see the need to occasionally retreat from battle and save what troops you have left for another fight.



But yeah, I like to have a little more feel for the tactics - especially if the
regent or lieutenant is accompanying them. But again, the result is what is
important from the domain perspective not the detail - although trying to
conserve troops is also a consideration.


Having not been involved with the creation of the d20 warfare rules, I can't comment on what sort of feel you will get for the tactics. I know there are a few paragraphs on the role of heros on the battlefield, and the effects of having a commander/regent present, but I'm not sure if that is what you are looking for or not.

[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:
> I want to know ASAP what happens so I can make the next important
> decision: What to do with the vanquished, or how to deal with getting
> dealt with (having lost), who to attack next, etc.

So have you abstracted out the melee combat in your games? I suppose it`s
doable, though a benefit of all those rolls is that they tend to average
out over a longer combat, so the better side will tend to win more than if
you based combat on a single roll. Or do you just go the Amber diceless
way, and compare combat skill without any rolls at all?

> I also don`t expect that this determination will take a significantly
> different amount of time simply because my character has more
> experience.

I haven`t found combat time in D&D to be strongly linked to level; the
amount of damage and instant-kill spells at high level can make it
significantly shorter, even. The size of the two sides is much more a
factor than the level of the characters.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:
> I want to know ASAP what happens so I can make the next important
> decision: What to do with the vanquished, or how to deal with getting
> dealt with (having lost), who to attack next, etc.

So have you abstracted out the melee combat in your games? I suppose it`s
doable, though a benefit of all those rolls is that they tend to average
out over a longer combat, so the better side will tend to win more than if
you based combat on a single roll. Or do you just go the Amber diceless
way, and compare combat skill without any rolls at all?

> I also don`t expect that this determination will take a significantly
> different amount of time simply because my character has more
> experience.

I haven`t found combat time in D&D to be strongly linked to level; the
amount of damage and instant-kill spells at high level can make it
significantly shorter, even. The size of the two sides is much more a
factor than the level of the characters.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Birthright-L]

Not much of a war gamer are ya? :-) I`ve spent DAYS designing armies and
then trying to implement them in my (then) AD&D campaigns using the old
Chainmail battle system. There was nothing like having your retainers and
hired mercenaries go into battle against the Zhentilar Mercenary army, and
then the party pursue the fleeing Zhent leaders to their lair and sack it!
I had one Wizard (who was a War Wizard of Cormyr long before 3ed) who built
himself a force and took over Scardale.

My favorite Birthright character was an Elven Fighter/Wizard named
Caelcormac who knew the name of every soldier in his personal army (even had
a list of my troops) and made sure to help out the families of his fallen
soldiers; his thought was that each man was important. That campaign ended
badly though as the Gorgon poured into Tuarhieval (my kingdom) just as more
than half my forces were subjugating the Giantdowns in battle against the
White Witch and Ghuralli (was trying to link up with the elves of
Lluabraight to make an Empire comprising Tuarhieval, Lluabraight, the
Giantdowns, Dhoesone, and Cariele which already belonged again to
Tuarhieval) and killed half our PC regents before we finally took him down
with the "help" of Rhoubhe (who then had to be fought off as well).

So you can really build true character into your Character when they are
really interested in their troops. Just the way I like to play though; lots
of people don`t like to get that into it.

Tony

----Original Message Follows----
From: daniel mcsorley <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:48:11 -0500

You don`t really have the personal investment with the pretend army your
pretend character hired, as you do with the character himself. You`ve
detailed the PC and played him for a lot of hours, you want to feel like a
battle he takes place in is complex and that he has a significant effect on
the outcome. Thus the simulation. The 200 faceless guys? Eh, give `em a
broadside of d20s and let`s move on with the plot.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[irdeggman]

It is my personal observation that hard core war gamers are never really satisfied with any one system. There is always another system that has an interesting mechanic but has its own flaws. Constant tweaking is a way of life for the hard core wargamer. Did I mention that several of my gaming group work for Avalanche press and the company is known (and awarded) for its wargames (enough of the shameless plug).

One of the things about BR was that it attempted to bring together two groups - the wargamer and the RPGer. By this very attempt neither could be completely satisfied and yet both could share each other's world. Then when you bring in the domain ruler aspect the whole campaign became grand, oh wait that is why we all play it and had continued long after the product line was disolved.

[geeman]

At 09:48 PM 1/29/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Peter Lubke wrote:
> > It`s interesting that people prefer large battle systems that are quick
> > to resolve rather than taking hours, but prefer personal combat systems
> > so close to simulation that a general melee with 20 combatants takes an
> > hour or more to resolve. The actual time (game duration) of the latter
> > would be minutes while the former could be half a day.

There are skirmish rules that can streamline this process quite a
bit. They were written for 2e, and were a little shaky anyway, so an
update would be nice.

>You don`t really have the personal investment with the pretend army your
>pretend character hired, as you do with the character himself.

A system of large scale combat that could be resolved with a couple of die
rolls would make sense also because as DM one sometimes need to determine
the results of a battle that the PCs aren`t even involved in. I`ve had
several occasions when I needed to know the results of a war between
neighbors when players weren`t directly involved, so having a simple die
roll would have been handy.

Gary

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