Elven populations

[Satanta]

the books sugest that there are still elves dwelling in small numbers in some places.
even the city of proudglaive has a substantial demi-human minority.i read somewhere that it was about 6%(half being halflings and the rest devided between elf and dwarf),now assuming that most members of the elven minority would prefer to live in the country it would not be unreasonable for the entire sidhline population (elfs and 1/2elfs) to number ome 2-4% of the entire pop of rhosone.

now the books mention elven tribes in the ailvenwode, a land more to their liking and more recently conqured(in elf terms) than roesone, in ruins of empire one of bourines generasl is an 1/2elf whos grandfather serves rhoube and i belive tuornen has a full elf general. taking all of these factors into account it would not be unreasonable to have an sidline population of 8-13%(elf and 1/2elf) and possibly higher in some areas(dhoesone 25-45%).now i know the elf kingdoms which once inhabited these reagons were never very heavily populated but what happened to their popultions, granted many probably died and mny others fled to places like tuarhievel and sielwode but it stands to reason that some elected to stay behind in their ancestral lands.

rjurik would be diffrent as the elves there are extremely xeniphobic as are those of tuarnnwn in north vosgaurd so there would be few to no minoritys in surrounding realms

khinasi would be different again, elves arnt native to the desert so there would only be a hndfull who might have gone as exploeres and adventurers or merchants and between the whole reagon number only a few hundred.

in the rhuannadaraight there are two elven realms with inishiere cloe buy, added to the fact that rhuannach is very open and friendly there would probably be a large 1/2 elf popultion in the region(possibly the biget in cerilla)so it would not be unreasonable for lrge minoritys in this area.

is there any more mterial on this subject?
what do ye think?

[ConjurerDragon]

Satanta wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1197
>
...

>now the books mention elven tribes in the ailvenwode, a land more to their liking and more recently conqured(in elf terms) than roesone, in ruins of empire one of bourines generasl is an 1/2elf whos grandfather serves rhoube and i belive tuornen has a full elf general. taking all of these factors into account it would not be unreasonable to have an sidline population of 8-13%(elf and 1/2elf) and possibly higher in some areas(dhoesone 25-45%)
>
The early USA had General Steuben - but that was not the reason for the
high percentage of german immigrants. So General Braedonnal Tuare and
also Fhylie the Sword (half-elf) are no arguments for any percentage of
elven/half-elven population in Tuornen, they are just single persons.

With the same right one could claim that all elven population but this
single half-elven general in Boeruine has been exterminated during the
bloody wars and skirmishes between Boeurine and Rhuobhe Manslayer. There
is however nothing to back this up but the imagination of whomever looks
at the few facts we know.

>.now i know the elf kingdoms which once inhabited these reagons were never very heavily populated but what happened to their popultions, granted many probably died and mny others fled to places like tuarhievel and sielwode but it stands to reason that some elected to stay behind in their ancestral lands.
>
The Player´s Secrets of Talinie mention that the native elven
population, called the "Trautha" (stone builders) were utterly destroyed
and annihilated by the Andu conquerors and that that was different from
all other conquests of the Andu (p. 4 PS of Talinie).
bye
Michael Romes

>is there any more mterial on this subject?
>what do ye think?
>

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[Satanta]

>
The early USA had General Steuben - but that was not the reason for the
high percentage of german immigrants. So General Braedonnal Tuare and
also Fhylie the Sword (half-elf) are no arguments for any percentage of
elven/half-elven population in Tuornen, they are just single persons.


im not suggesting that a couple of individual elves is the basis for a minority, but this coupled with the location and the fact that minoritys exits elsewhere could indicate elven minoritys in other regions.

>
The Player´s Secrets of Talinie mention that the native elven
population, called the "Trautha" (stone builders) were utterly destroyed
and annihilated by the Andu conquerors and that that was different from
all other conquests of the Andu (p. 4 PS of Talinie).

so apart from talinine the elven population was not completely wiped out?
anyone know where i can get my hands on a copy of the PS of talinie?

[Azrai]

Originally posted by Satanta
so apart from talinine the elven population was not completely wiped out?
anyone know where i can get my hands on a copy of the PS of talinie?

What do you mean with wiped out? Are we talking of elves living in human communities or do you mean elves in general?

there are several elven domains in cerilia, for example

Thuarhievel (Anuire)
Sielwode (Anuire)
Rhuobhe Domain (Anuire)
Coullabhie (Brecht)
Rhuannach (Kinashi)
Cwmb Bheinn (Kinashi)
Innishiere (Kinashi)
Tuar Annwn (Vos)
Lluabraight (Rjurik)

Elves are not common in human communities, but there are some. it's pretty much the same than in every fantasy campaign.

[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Azrai wrote:
> What do you mean with wiped out? Are we talking of elves living in
> human communities or do you mean elves in general?

He means the elves that lived in that part of the Aelvinwode before humans
settled it.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[Beruin]

I can`t picture a larger population of elves living among the human population of Anuire, given the history of Cerilia. There are probably still small clans of elves in remote areas within human domains, waging a guerilla war against the humans or just staying out of sight, but I guess that elves would be a rare sight within human settlements. I guess these elves would be frequently harassed by suspicious humans and pogroms wouldn`t be uncommon.

However, the notion of elven ghettos within larger Anuirean Cities has some potential. How about an elven crime lord for a villain, who deals with drugs and is involved in other illegal activities such as the slave trade, justifying his actions as an attempt to weaken the humans and/or to exert revenge?

Christoph Tiemann

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[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Christoph Tiemann wrote:
> I can`t picture a larger population of elves living among the human
> population of Anuire, given the history of Cerilia. There are probably
> still small clans of elves in remote areas within human domains,
> waging a guerilla war against the humans or just staying out of sight,
> but I guess that elves would be a rare sight within human settlements.
> I guess these elves would be frequently harassed by suspicious humans
> and pogroms wouldn`t be uncommon.

There are definitely elves in Tuornen and Dhoesone, living as part of the
population. Elsewhere, there may be elves, but I doubt anyone sees them.
There`s still a lot of empty space in Cerilia. The forest in southern
Roesone and Aerenwe probably has elves in it. So too Boeruine and
Cariele, they just don`t interact with anyone. If there`s a demihuman
population listed for a realm, I`d go with mostly halflings and a few
dwarves.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[ConjurerDragon]

Christoph Tiemann wrote:

>I can`t picture a larger population of elves living among the human population of Anuire, given the history of Cerilia. There are probably still small clans of elves in remote areas within human domains, waging a guerilla war against the humans or just staying out of sight, but I guess that elves would be a rare sight within human settlements. I guess these elves would be frequently harassed by suspicious humans and pogroms wouldn`t be uncommon.
>However, the notion of elven ghettos within larger Anuirean Cities has some potential. How about an elven crime lord for a villain, who deals with drugs and is involved in other illegal activities such as the slave trade, justifying his actions as an attempt to weaken the humans and/or to exert revenge?
>Christoph Tiemann
>
From a purely alignment point of view that would be evil - sidhelien
are more like nature, e.g. true neutral or similar.
And most sidhelien are not lawful - and thus would have problems working
in a larger organization, or even to lead such an organization. Rhuobhe
might be one of the few who could do it - lawful evil as he is.
bye
Michael

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[ConjurerDragon]

Satanta wrote:

>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1197
>
>...
>so apart from talinine the elven population was not completely wiped out?
>anyone know where i can get my hands on a copy of the PS of talinie?
>
Ebay? Wizards of the Coast?
bye
Michael

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[Birthright-L]

The Manslayer is Neutral Evil. The elves in general aren`t evil; but it
doesn`t prevent them from carrying out the "Hunt of the Elves" which is
aimed at killing off any "invaders" into their lands. It is a sort of
guerilla war on their part; so killing off humans to them isn`t evil. Sort
of your perspective really.

----Original Message Follows----
From: Michael Romes <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>

Christoph Tiemann wrote:

>
From a purely alignment point of view that would be evil - sidhelien
are more like nature, e.g. true neutral or similar.
And most sidhelien are not lawful - and thus would have problems working
in a larger organization, or even to lead such an organization. Rhuobhe
might be one of the few who could do it - lawful evil as he is.
bye
Michael

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[Satanta]

Christoph Tiemann wrote:
>I can`t picture a larger population of elves living among the human population of Anuire, given the history of Cerilia. There are probably still small clans of elves in remote areas within human domains, waging a guerilla war against the humans or just staying out of sight, but I guess that elves would be a rare sight within human settlements. I guess these elves would be frequently harassed by suspicious humans and pogroms wouldn`t be uncommon.
>However, the notion of elven ghettos within larger Anuirean Cities has some potential. How about an elven crime lord for a villain, who deals with drugs and is involved in other illegal activities such as the slave trade, justifying his actions as an attempt to weaken the humans and/or to exert revenge?


Well anuire is pretty remotly populated in most areas. and imagine the huge woods of boeruine and other similar places are even more so.if they were heavily populated they would have been cleared. villages days apart mightned be terribly aware of any elven settlments in the wild or really care. id imagine places like bourine w6uld have plenty of wilderness
also just because of their viollent history it doesnt mean they wouldnt live side by side. in medival ireland the irish and the english reguarly and constantly launched wars to wipe out the other, yet both areas had substantial minoritys of the other population. in english areas gaelic clans men formed the lower classes and in gaelic areas the english adopted gaelic custom and culture.
yes trouble may brew up between communtys from time to time, with the occasional pogrom.

Posted by Azrai,Elves are not common in human communities, but there are some. it's pretty much the same than in every fantasy campaign.

true but in most campaigns the elves wernt conqured by the humans, and the sidhline are diffrent from most elves.

Posted by Birthright-L,If there`s a demihuman
population listed for a realm, I`d go with mostly halflings and a few
dwarves.

i agree in halflings would be the most numerous demi-human in this case. but i think the dwarfs would be strong in some areas.there are a number of reasons why. firstly the books mention the humans left the dwarfs keep the mountins and it also mentions rhoubhe may have broken down some dwarf defences to let out the orogs. it would not be unreasonable to assume these communitys still exist, and are not strong enough to from their own kingdoms but instead swear vassalage to the human ones near buy.

course i might be trying to read between the lines to much:)

[geeman]

The question to me is "What might be a `typical` demographic breakdown of
the various populations in particular regions?" For example, in the
predominantly human lands of Khinasi there might be 91% humans, 4%
halflings, 2% dwarves, 1% elves and 2% "other" (various humanoids, goblins,
orogs, whatever.) In particular elven realms the population might be 95%
elves, 3% half-elves and 2% "other" with the "human friendly" elven realms
being as much as 20% human and having an appropriately larger percentage of
half-elves.

The particulars of these racial demographics could be broken down by region
or by domain, but domain would probably be more useful, and not all that
much work. They used to list in many old campaign settings (Greyhawk comes
to mind) the specific numbers of each race in the population. While one
would probably want to make those numbers of for each domain independently,
it might be possible to have some sort of rough set of modifiers based on
the terrain types of the provinces in a domain. The various races are
generally associated with a particular terrain (forests for elves,
mountains for dwarves, etc.) so one could then use those terrains as an
influence on the overall population.

Let`s just say, for example, that for every forested province in a domain
0.5% of the population will be elven, for every mountainous province in a
domain 1% of the population will be dwarven, and for every province that
has a "hilly" terrain 1% will be halfling. A domain like Dhoesone might
then have a population that was 93% human, 3% elven (I`m counting the 50/50
forested province of Giant`s Fastness as an entirely forested province for
this) and 1% halfling (the other half of Giant`s Fastness looks more like
"low mountains" than hills, but this is just as an example.)

The terrain types that are represented on the maps of Cerilia are sometimes
hard to discern or differentiate, but if we`re talking about rough
percentages it might give us a place to start.

If we wanted to come up with some sort of lose connection between terrain
types and the racial percentage breakdown of the population of that domain
then what kinds of numbers are we talking about?

Gary

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[Satanta]

While terrain should be taken into account it should not be the deciding factor the location and history of a realm should come into play. for instance dhoesone might have the highest percentge of elves for a non elven nation, while thurazor would hold none id imagine.
The large citys of ariya,zikala and nations in that area might only contain a few merchants or adventurer s of elf or half elf blood. as it was never elven territory and they would not like the terrain.here elves are almost unheard of and draw considrable currioity.
nations like ,innishiere,tuarnnwn,and llubraight would probably have a 96% of elves, the rest being devided between 1/2 elves and halflings, the only live humans being in the dungeons.
then places like the sielwode,Coullabhie and cwmbbheinn have a human population of only 40-100 people, consisting of a few ambasadors and the like
while thurievel maybe 1-2% human,5%half-elf and 3% halfling
while ruannach has a human population of about 20% human
(as far as a know rhoube has a human population of 1, a man trying to kill rhoube:) )

i think for human nations that the nature of the nearybuy elven realms and their attitude towards elves would have a barring on their population levels.

In my campaign Cariele had a distinctive subgroup in it underclass who were called sidhlauch. they formed about 9% of the population and mostly lived in city slums or small reservation like areas in the wild. they were decendants of elve who once dwelt here.they formed their own distict culture neither elven or anuiren. and they had trhwir own distinct language , a blend of anuirian and sidhline .most also spoke anuriean but not all and an even smaller group spoke elven.
but they were not just half elves
about 3% had only 25% elven blood and could pass in most cases as slightly unusual looking humans.(for abillitys perposes treat like half elfs
about 3% were half elf
another 2 % were near elf , and looked like unusual elfs(treated as elves)
and the last 1% true blood elves
(due to their low place in socity many were engaged in smuggling and thiefs guilds)
in addition there were another 2% of "wild" elves, or sidhline and not part of this sub culture.
due to the mountinous nature of the terrin i decided there were about another 2% of dwarfs
and finnaly 2% of halflings.and 1 % resident goblins(not counting marauding bands and such)
for a grand total of 16% non-human and 74% human.

however i had ghoere with a demi-human population of about 3%
brinin
(is there a players guide to Cariele)
i never gave many of the other nations much thought on the subject

[geeman]

At 12:46 AM 1/10/2003 +0100, Satanta wrote:

> While terrain should be taken into account it should not be the deciding
> factor the location and history of a realm should come into play. for
> instance dhoesone might have the highest percentge of elves for a non
> elven nation, while thurazor would hold none id imagine.

Yeah, I wouldn`t use it as an absolute set of numbers. Just something to
give an indication of what kinds of populations might be represented in a
particular area. It`s the kind of thing that one could definitely apply a
broad fudge factor to.

>i think for human nations that the nature of the nearybuy elven realms and
>their attitude towards elves would have a barring on their population levels.

...and vice versa. Such considerations could double to triple the
representation of a particular race in a domain. To get a feel for this
sort of thing the predominant racial characteristics of nearby domains
might be used as a similar modifier. Dhoesone`s border with the relatively
"liberal" and "human-friendly" Tuarhieval, for instance, might double its
elf population, or increase it by +2% or something. However, an elven
kingdom like the Sielwode would not have the same affect (maybe it would be
less, maybe it would be no effect at all) on the number of elves in its
neighbors.

Other things that would probably effect the racial breakdown in particular
domains would be the existence of trade routes across the borders into
domains with other populations. One might also want to take into
consideration the relative militancy of the populations and how zealously
they might guard their borders. Ghoere, for example, might not be the kind
of place where a lot of halflings would find themselves interested in settling.

I suppose it would also be possible to use a similar system to get a rough
idea what the percentages of human populations are in particular
domain. Cerilia`s humans, of course, are all over the map. Anuireans in
Khinasi, Brechts in Vosgaard, etc. The existence of particular domains
(Elinie, for example) could be used as the basis for determining how many
humans of Khinasi descent are in that domain and in nearby ones.

Gary

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 8:24 PM


> Dhoesone`s border with the relatively "liberal" and "human-friendly"
> Tuarhieval, for instance, might double its elf population. However,
> an elven kingdom like the Sielwode would not have the same affect
> on the number of elves in its neighbors.

I think the pro or anti-human stance better describes how many humans are in
the sidhe realms than the other way round. Perhaps the pro-human sidhe of
the Sielwode have abandon their home forests for forests in nearby human
realms. This one could go both ways.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[irdeggman]

I generally find the at the Player's Secrets are totally inconsistent with the "core rules", by "core rules" I mean the BRRB, Atlas of Cerialia (also inconsistancies between these two), the Tribes of the Heartless Wastes, Ruins of Empire, Havens of the Great Bay, Cities in the Sun, Rjurik Highlands, BoP, and BoM - one could even include the BoR.

The underlying theme in these is that humans and elves, with very few exceptions, "hate" each other. It is written that humans see half elves as changelings and they are shunned and only fully accepted in elven societies. Even the Rjurik Highland mentions a great fallout (war) between the elves and the Rjurik. Only the Tribes of the Heartless wastes talks about elves and humans living in peace. Some of the domains listed would most definitely be exceptions, but they generally include a "reason" for this exception - half sister/brother, etc. I generally look for the "weight" of the evidience and the priority of the source, core rules having higher priority than something like the Player's Secrets, but the regional expansions taking precedence over the core rules when it comes to the area being discussed.

I generally agree with Daniel on his assessment that the majority of the demi-human population is halflings. Specifically in Rhosone, which is majorly plains and farmlands now, it makes no sense for there to be elves present in the cities. This is one of the places that the "old" forest was razed to make room for human settlements and except for the last remaining forests in southern Rhoesone and Arewenewe (spelling) there is really no place for them to "call home". Also there should be a real lack of dwarven population in this area, snce the closest dwarven domain in Baruk-Azhik which is very shorthanded due to their ongoing war with the Orogs. Also the timeline lists dates where almost all of the dwarven domains "shut their doors" and reverted to isolationism - the one major exception is in Brechtur and we don't count Mur-Kilad.


In general Birthright is a very human-centric campaign setting, with limited interaction between humans and the demi-human races, so it is really not the "typical" D&D population.


IMO it very important to maintain the "friction" between elves and humans until characters do something to remedy this situation, i.e., role-play and adventures. IMO it is also important to maintain the general "aloofness" of the dwarves, it is the reason they have been at peace with the elves for as long as they have.


Just my 2 cps.

[Satanta]

the way i see it much of the elven populations in human lands would not be people who left elven realms,why would they wish to leave their ancient homelands in any great numbers.
those that dwell in human lands are their because it was their ancient homelands before the humans over ran it, but they could still not bring themselves to leave. even still i think they would be a relativly small minority.
others in places near llubraight could be exiles for having to friendly relations with humans.

as for human ethnic groups(khinasi, vos etc) that is another thing ive thought about a bit especially in relation to dhoesone.a country with a real frontear feel where three cultures meet, elf ,rjurik and anuire.

i broke it down into
15% elf (most living in hidden settlments)
5% half-elf
5%rjurik mainly in the northern provinces and not counting the nomadic clans which dwell part of the year in stjordvik or giantdowns
15% anuirean-rjurik, people who speak anuirean and have adopted much from anureian culture while retainaing parts of their rjueik heratige and are the decendants 6f the rjurik of hjalsone.
3% halfling
2% goblin(those legaly residing in the state)
and 55% anuirean.


the way i see it is that dhoesone has the largest population of elves outside an elven realm. it is close to thurievel, has vast tracts of woodland humans wouldnt have penatrared and a friendly goverment.

[Satanta]

Posted by irdeggman,The underlying theme in these is that humans and elves, with very few exceptions, "hate" each other.

races that hate each other still live besdide each other in many parts of our world, just because there are genocidal wars doesnt mean some of the original population doesnt servive.
i agree places like rhoesone would have very few elves, but other nations have huge expances of forest which small elven communitys could still dwell.
look at teh north american indians they were nearly wiped out but their remenents still dwell in patches of land in on the fringes of white america.
similarily places like boeruine could have a small native elven population who still dwell their because they have no where else to go.


as for the books , whats written in them is only a guide line ,they are incomplete at best, the dwarven minority in dauren was mentioned because it was abnormaly large, but there could be others else where.
the books hint at a lot.
for instance the seamist ntns have dwarf built defences that rhoube is suspected of braking down to release orogs, with no large dwarf realm near buy it would not be unreasonable to suspect some sort of dwarven minority in the area.
Also the islnd of zweilunds mention lrge dwarf carved underground caverns and city. the book doesnt have time to detail everything , but this would hint at the existance of dwarfs on these islands(of couse they could be wiped out ,but the book doesnt say one way or the other.

[irdeggman]

I was refering to elves living in the human cities, which I think was the original posting. It makes perfect sense to me for some elves to be living in the Erbanian (again spelling) in southern Roesone and Arenewe, but not in the human cities along side the humans. This would be side by side but with not in the same place, remember that humans venturing into the Sielwood have generally not been seen again.

[geeman]

At 10:38 PM 1/9/2003 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> > Dhoesone`s border with the relatively "liberal" and "human-friendly"
> > Tuarhieval, for instance, might double its elf population. However,
> > an elven kingdom like the Sielwode would not have the same affect
> > on the number of elves in its neighbors.
>
>I think the pro or anti-human stance better describes how many humans are in
>the sidhe realms than the other way round. Perhaps the pro-human sidhe of
>the Sielwode have abandon their home forests for forests in nearby human
>realms. This one could go both ways.

OK. I guess I`ll buy that as far as it goes. It makes the process a
little smoother too since one can keep the modifiers and influences within
a particular domain rather than having to determine the various "policies"
of neighbors. It still seems off to me that the Sielwode`s influence on
the percentage of elven population in Coeranys would be the same as
Tuarhieval`s influence on Dhoesone, but since this is just a sort of
guideline rather than an absolute set of numbers so it probably doesn`t
make a lot of difference.

Gary

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[geeman]

At 12:06 PM 1/10/2003 +0100, irdeggman wrote:

>I generally find the at the Player`s Secrets are totally inconsistent
>with the "core rules", by "core rules" I mean the BRRB, Atlas of
>Cerialia (also inconsistancies between these two), the Tribes of the
>Heartless Wastes, Ruins of Empire, Havens of the Great Bay, Cities in the
>Sun, Rjurik Highlands, BoP, and BoM - one could even include the BoR.

The PS texts often have some glaring inconsistencies with the rest of the
published materials, but they aren`t totally inconsistent. If you can get
past the contradictions they do contain some good stuff. Many of the
extrapolations on elven culture in PSoTuarhieval, for instance, is just
fine. One has to overlook the weirdness of a human invested with the
domain, but that`s pretty easily discounted since it follows along with the
alternate scenarios used to put PCs in place of the NPCs regents originally
presented--none of which strike me as being particularly well
done. Similarly, the Baruk Azhik book has some cool descriptions of
dwarven life, good maps and adventure ideas. Lots of people hate the fact
that dwarves can eat rock and dirt as presented in that book (I kind of
like it myself) or that Grimm Graybeard turns into some sort of Obi Wan
Kenobi of the caverns, but again either of those things can be discounted
pretty easily.

>The underlying theme in these is that humans and elves, with very few
>exceptions, "hate" each other.

There`s animosity, but I don`t think it rises necessarily to the fever
pitch of outright hatred in the same way that humans feel about other
rivals. One of the things I prefer about BR over other settings is that
the differences between the races are more clearly described (depending on
how seriously one takes the biology of dwarves and such as presented in the
materials) but the "morality" of the various cultures is much more
gray. Elves are "protectors of the forests" but some of them kill
indiscriminately in doing so. Goblins are "evil" but still function pretty
well on the national level with their human neighbors. Things along those
lines.

The hatred that elves have for humans isn`t unjustified given their
ideology and more than likely certain biological factors that provided the
basis for that ideology. That hatred, however, is not necessarily more
serious than their generalized sense of racial superiority over other
species, and when it gets right down to it, they are superior. Immortal,
capable of wielding more powerful magics, Cerilian elves have racial
advantages that probably aren`t very well reflected by characters presented
with ability score numbers and character levels. Sure, elves don`t much
care for humans, but are humans much more than goblins or orogs to such
creatures? They aren`t even dwarves, which at least have the good sense to
keep their grotesque faces underground where they won`t offend the
sensibilities of elves.

>It is written that humans see half elves as changelings and they are
>shunned and only fully accepted in elven societies.

I don`t know if that`s necessarily because they are elven, though. It`s
more of an expression of human bias and xenophobia than a connection to
elven heritage. It`s not necessarily an unjustified bias either for a
couple of reasons.

One should first take into consideration the circumstances of a half-elf`s
birth. There ARE changelings in Cerilia (from Bloodspawn--possibly the
best supplemental text IMO) who do actually steal babies and replace them
with horrific simulacra (not in the sense of the D&D spell.) The idea of
giving birth to something not-human is pretty upsetting, even if it`s
something as innocuous as a half-elf. The sidhe are in many ways
associated with the horrors of the Shadow World and that`s largely because
they really are more closely linked with that land of shadow and mystery.

Second, a human female who overcame any racial issues to mate with an elf
male would be more likely to accept such a child, but I`m afraid most
half-elven children would probably not be so enunciated.... As indelicate
as this is, humans are remarkably vulnerable to being charmed from the
elvish POV and, well, if they happen to be sexy humans then all the
better. The elvish take on magic is a factor here as well. Charming a
human for reasons of seduction would likely be considered a heinous act in
human society, but to an elf, whose use of magic is part of his very
character, there isn`t much difference between being charming and charming
someone. What`s for the human to get upset about anyway? They live such
short lives. Even any possible off-spring will only be around for a
century or two. No big deal. Many half-elven children would likely be the
product of this kind of liaison. The sidhe are mystical creatures who are
not above a little of the kind of mischief that makes for maternity. The
attitude of humans for half-elves is likely the product of that rather than
a hatred towards elves.

It`s also important to note that half-elves are accepted in elven culture,
despite their human heritage. Is it strange that "children of nature" as
it is sometimes euphonized would be more accepted amongst elves who are
themselves more directly children of nature? Probably not. But a blind
hatred for humanity would certainly rub off on creatures who are themselves
half-human if it were as strong as all that.

Gary

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[Beruin]

Gary wrote:

>>One should first take into consideration the circumstances of a half-elf`s
birth.<<

In addition to the circumstances you mentioned, there`s also the possibility that half-elves are the product of rape committed during times of war between elves and humans. The outlook of such an half-elf would probably be rather different from one born from a love relationship.

I would also like to address the "`typical` demographic breakdown of
the various populations in particular regions?"
I think it is important that we differentiate between the total population of a particular region and the `subject population` in a particular realm. For example, if we assume that Dhoesone has a population of 93% human, 3% elven, 1% halfling, maybe 2% dwarven and 1% other, does this mean that the listed demi-human population accepts the Baroness of Dhoesone as their ruler, pays taxes etc? Or do they live in remote wilderness areas without any real connection to the Barony?

In the latter case, that is if the demographic breakdown should describe the total population of a region, not the subject population of a realm, a category "monster" should perhaps be included. In effect, we would need two categories to describe the population of a region.

Dhoesone might have a subject population of 95% human, 2% elven, 1% each of half-elven and halflings and 0.5 % each of dwarves and goblins. In this thinly settled realm the total population might be something like 75% human, 7% elven, 3% other demi-humans, 5% goblins and perhaps up to 10% monster (mostly other humanoids like orogs, gnolls and whatever else you use, but also a few clans of ogres, giants, etc)

Christoph Tiemann

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[geeman]

At 04:13 AM 1/12/2003 +0100, Christoph Tiemann wrote:

>In addition to the circumstances you mentioned, there`s also the
>possibility that half-elves are the product of rape committed during times
>of war between elves and humans. The outlook of such an half-elf would
>probably be rather different from one born from a love relationship.

I`d imagine so. If it were a particularly common occurrence, though, it
wouldn`t do much to explain why half-elves are accepted in elven
communities while shunned amongst humans.

>I would also like to address the "`typical` demographic breakdown of
>the various populations in particular regions?"
>I think it is important that we differentiate between the total population
>of a particular region and the `subject population` in a particular realm.
>For example, if we assume that Dhoesone has a population of 93% human, 3%
>elven, 1% halfling, maybe 2% dwarven and 1% other, does this mean that the
>listed demi-human population accepts the Baroness of Dhoesone as their
>ruler, pays taxes etc? Or do they live in remote wilderness areas without
>any real connection to the Barony?
>
>In the latter case, that is if the demographic breakdown should describe
>the total population of a region, not the subject population of a realm, a
>category "monster" should perhaps be included. In effect, we would need
>two categories to describe the population of a region.

That`s an interesting point. Several people have gone with interpretations
of the domain rules in which the population numbers represent not the
actual population of a province but that amount of the population that is
under the control/influence of the province ruler. There are merits and
demerits to such an interpretation (just as there are good and bad aspects
of the differing POV.) Personally, I like to think of the population
levels as the actual numbers of typical, "civilized" and humanoid creatures
in a province, with the potential source level of a province representing a
similar number of natural and magical creatures that reside in the
province. For example, if level 3 represents 10,000 individuals and level
4 represents 15,000 individuals then a 3/4 province might have 10,000
humans/elves/dwarves/etc., and a "natural" population of 15,000
"non-civilized" creatures, including monsters and various creatures that
exist in a sort of extended food chain. Within those populations the
individuals would have some sort of typical spread of character levels or
HD. In a population of 1,000 humans there would be 500 of 1st level, 250
of 2nd level, 125 of 3rd, etc. "Natural" populations would just replace
character levels with hit dice. ie. Of 1,000 creatures 500 would be 1HD
creatures, 250 2HD creatures....

The thing to do then is to differentiate between "civilized" and "natural"
for the purpose of determining to which group different types of monster
belong. I would suggest that probably the simplest way to differentiate
them is by intelligence. Do they have above animal (or 3-4)
intelligence? If we were being more particular then the ability to speak
might be a better way of differentiating "civilized" from
"natural" populations.

Using a system like that we can get not only the typical spread of NPCs
that exist in a province but also the number of monsters that might exist
there. Individual creatures and exceptions will, of course, exist, but a
set of guidelines like that above can give us more of a clue as to what it
is that we`re talking about when we have a (3/4) province.

Gary

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[Birthright-L]

I see the monster population of an area as a function of the source level of
that area. In areas where there is a lot of source levels, there are a lot
of monsters. In this way, wilderness regions actually have a higher monster
population than human population.

Of course, the monster population of a source-7 province is less than the
human population of a level 7 province. Monster neen noor very little
civilian population to form the basis of an economy. But IMC a source-7
province can muster 7 units of monster "militia" - in every way superior to
human militia, and sometimes as strong as an Undead Legion or such.

I include ogres, gnolls and lizard men in the "monster" population, as well
as primitve tribal groups of goblins and even humans or halflings. The
important thing here is that these people are not a part of a civlized
economy of land exploitation. Orogs and shadow world halflings are not
monsters in this sense - IMC they live in the Shadow World and raid from
there.

Note that this leaves elven provinces with a sizeable population of
monsters - just the way I like it.

Also note that these monsters are generally very unorganized - colonizing
such a province is unlikely to encounter any organized resistance, or
fighting more than one such nit of monsters at a time. Only if there is some
organizing force (usually an awishleighn) will these monsters muster for
battle. But just knowing they are there will give the players a pause.

Source holdings that are "wild" and unclaimed have more agressive monsters,
while those held by source regents tent to be calmer and live more
remotely - so land regents have a need for sourceholders to keep their
monster populations calm.


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[Satanta]

i see the population as those included as members of the state,weather they want to or not. take dhoesone for example , some of the elven populations their might for the most part remain apart from human society with only a handfull of rangers and possibly the realms rulers knowing much about them ,yet they would still be counted amongst the populace. equally a pacified goblin tribe which openly resides in an area might be counted.
at the same time there could be elves who completley shun contact with all outsiders and are for the most part uncounted as would meny monsters,hidden dwarf halls or humanoid camps.
human brigands ,pirates would not be counted or in some places nomadic tribes.

i cant really see a scribe going into a bandit camp and saying " excuse me terribly blackbeard, but im doing a population census and we wanted to know whow many cuthroats,rapists and thieves dwell hear and could you give me an ethnic brakedown of that number"

[Beruin]

Gary wrote:

>>Several people have gone with interpretations
of the domain rules in which the population numbers represent not the
actual population of a province but that amount of the population that is
under the control/influence of the province ruler.<<

Well, I do not like this interpretation, as this implies that every province is in a sense already settled to the max. population possible and this strains my sense of logic.

However, I`m really taken by the idea to associate monster population with source levels. I`m not yet sure if this method is viable in all cases. For example, it would produce an unsettled - by civilization plains province with an agreeable climate that would be only thinly populated by monsters, while an inhospitable mountain province would hold a very large monster population.

In some cases, this perfect. I guess I will apply this ruling for the Spiderfell. It would really give Spidey something to work on.


Would-be invaders beware!

Christoph

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[geeman]

At 01:22 AM 1/13/2003 +0100, Christoph Tiemann wrote:

> >>Several people have gone with interpretations
>of the domain rules in which the population numbers represent not the
>actual population of a province but that amount of the population that is
>under the control/influence of the province ruler.<<
>
>Well, I do not like this interpretation, as this implies that every
>province is in a sense already settled to the max. population possible and
>this strains my sense of logic.

Yeah, it`s not my favorite rationale either, but it does have certain
strengths, mostly regarding the speed with which population levels can rise
and fall given the Rule/Contest actions. The opposing position (that
population levels represent the actual number of civilians in a province)
means that one has to come up with some rationalization for so many people
suddenly appearing in a province or disappearing when those provinces are
ruled or contested.

I`m starting to think there may be some sort of middle ground between the
two positions in which populations would exist in various provinces up to a
certain level, with another action required to raise the "potential
population level" of a province after it is maxed out. The exact mechanics
are something I`ll need to work out, but it`s something I`ve been mulling over.

>However, I`m really taken by the idea to associate monster population with
>source levels. I`m not yet sure if this method is viable in all cases. For
>example, it would produce an unsettled - by civilization plains province
>with an agreeable climate that would be only thinly populated by monsters,
>while an inhospitable mountain province would hold a very large monster
>population.
>
>In some cases, this perfect. I guess I will apply this ruling for the
>Spiderfell. It would really give Spidey something to work on.

One of the things I`ve been considering is redefining the source and
potential source levels of a province to make them reflect this kind of
thing. At present only source levels are related to the natural aspect of
provinces (while three holdings are based on population level) and I`d like
to expand that a bit by splitting sources up into two different types of
holdings. Sources would still exist (for the purpose of arcane magic realm
spells) and would work pretty much as they do now--representing the magical
energy derived from the unspoiled aspect of a province--but there would
also be a "wilderness" holding that represented something similar to the
population levels but with, of course, animals, monsters, and various
"natural" creatures taking the place of civilians. A holding like that
would more aptly describe the kind of role that druids and rangers might
have in a province without taking away the role of arcane magic for
wizards/sorcerers.

With a revised population level system the source/wilderness/potential
source levels of a province might work the same way. ie. Sources and/or
Wilderness holdings could be raised to a certain level based on the terrain
type of the province and raised above that after another domain action
increases that aspect of the province. The effort made to raise a province
above that normally available for it`s terrain would represent more
elaborate natural environments; most obviously a sylvan forest of an elven
kingdom, but one could also imagine more elaborate natural environments,
husbanded by various other types of creatures. Carefully manicured
mountains of dwarven populations, protected and guarded lands of itinerant
Rjurik. Things like that.

Gary

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[irdeggman]

How would you deferentiate between mountains and forests, which both have very high source levels but would definitely have different kinds of monster populations? Mountains generally have fewer, at least on the surface which is what affects the source level.

[Birthright-L]

Are you asking me? I don`t really care - these monsters are under DM
control, and I am at liberty to do whatever I want with them. One war card
per source level is just a general guideline.

/Carl

----- Original Message -----
From: "irdeggman" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: Elven populations [2#1197]


> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1197
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> How would you deferentiate between mountains and forests, which both have
very high source levels but would definitely have different kinds of monster
populations? Mountains generally have fewer, at least on the surface which
is what affects the source level.
>
>
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[Caine]

Hiya guys & ladies.:)

Just struck with a 'little' thought.

How about take the source potential of a province & substract the province level this will give you a number ranging from 9 to -5 (ish). Lump 0 & negatives together for the mo & take your nice positive integer as a guidline as to monster populations in an area.

It makes sense to me that civilized areas will clear away creatures/people that they find disturbing or dangerous. Elves/Humans & Dwarves aren't likely to want hostile mountain Giants, manticores or other strange beasts in their living spaces so they will most likely have killed or chased any populations of such away.

You can also have fun playing with the definition of what is a monster. In a human province, part of the 'monster' population may be elves. Whilst in an elven region I don't see them cutting down dryad trees whilst humans may be more prone to doing so (we can be nice. but logging interests often get in the way ;).

Getting back to the 0 to negative numbers, GMs will always have wandering encounters. Whether they be social, human or monster. This means that there would be no established population of monsters in the province, but you might have a family of orogs moving to the surface for hunting & foraging for a short while. The Spider may have sent a group of his minions to get him strawberries in winter. Beware Avan's gardener...

<warning, spin off thought>

On a different topic, someone mentionned earlier that only surface features really affected the source potential of a province. I don't agree.
How about caverns of wonder? I mean if the caverns of helm's deep held a dwarf in awe with their beauty, surely they'd make a great focus for a source.

Of course we could always start allowing for subteranean provinces. The orogs must have a few. & the idea allows for some really cool variations on the dwarven realms. Mur Kilad with 4 provinces sounds much more impressive that with only two. Knowing the dwarves the surface provinces of their realms would probably only have ratings of 0, 1 or 2. Whilst their subteranean ones might reach the heady heights of 6 or even 8.

I'm looking forward to what you people think.

Be gentle.

:P

me

[irdeggman]

I didn't say source potential I said source level. What I was refering to is the development of say Baruk Azhik and it's affect on the source level of the province. The dwarf capital is rather well developed and the minerals are very definitely being mined and yet the source level remains rather strong. So I hold that the development of the underground has less of an affect on the sources than does surface development. Compare Roesone and the aforementioned dwarven kingdom.

[Caine]

Hiya Irdeggman.:)

Sorry if I came over as too critical.
I have to agree with you that the source levels in Baruk Azik are somewhat high. Not having my copy of Ruins of Empire here I can't quote any figures or specific instances (should always have a copy with me!), but as I recall province size to source level/potential isn't one of the most consistently enforced rules (I'll post again with some proper references in a few days, prob 1 week+).

Still, it would make for an interesting twist to layer provinces, this would allow high source potentials on the surface and lower ones down below where all the population is.

A counter argument could be that the dwarves have to use the surface parts of their provinces for food production etc. But I don't recall reading anything about dwarven agriculture, or any significant presence even, on the surface of their realms. They patrol but don't seem to live there much.

This does open another can of worms. How much control of the surface of their provinces do the dwarves really have? The idea of using seperate surface & subteranean provinces is designed to help address this problem.

Well that's it for now. Thanks again for reading.

Caine

[Michael Romes]

...
A counter argument could be that the dwarves have to use the surface parts of their provinces for food production etc. But I don't recall reading anything about dwarven agriculture, or any significant presence even, on the surface of their realms. They patrol but don't seem to live there much.

In the Player´s Secret of Baruk-Azhik it is specifically mentioned that the dwarves dwell entirely underground but keep a strict watch even over individual humans settling in their provinces.
About their diet it mentions:


The dwarven diet
While not typically a geographical subject, the topic of dwaven food deserves mention. The diet of the dwarves does factor into the lack of farming and hunting in these lands, and so seems an approbiate topic in this section.
The unusual dwaren physique has never been fully explained. Dwarves are known to be much more dense than humans or elves, to such a degree that dwarves are protected from certain types of physical injury. Dwarven legends tell that they are derived from earth and stone; this must certainly be true to some degree.
That dwarves can subsist on rocks and earth is absolute fact. Troops of dwarves who have been trapped in rockslides or pinned down in caverns as a result of the orog wars have survived by eating the rock and earth around them. Furthermore, these dwarves have emerged from their ordeals non the worse for wear. While they have shown signs of dehydration, such victims experienced no weight loss or weakness as a result of their diet...

It continues about that while possible to be a bit bland and lists various food types from favoured to avoided to taboo. That the dwarves occasionally hunt and gather on the surface, keep goats underground and engage in fungus farming.