altering terrain in Birthright

[Lord Grave]

One of my players want to drain a swamp, and I have no idea how to
handle it. Any suggestions?

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[morgramen]

I'd use build actions (lots of them!) for the initial bit. Drainage trenches, paddlewheels, etc.) and then I'd probably alter the DC to be rather difficult as well. Draining a swamp could be done I'd say, but it'd take a long long time I'd expect (and be expensive!) (Unless you use magic as well to compliment the building.)

Also, the water needs to go somewhere. And once the region is drained, what's left over? Silt, mud, muskeg perhaps. Not solid earth, ready for cultivation I'd wager.

All in all, I'd expect such an undertaking to take a good many years of game time before it's actually suitable for use as something else.

[Birthright-L]

I have let players increase the maximum province levels through building
dams, ditches, irrigation, terraces or whatnot. Each increae past the normal
maximum is a building project, with a cost of 5d6 GB. This project must be
finised before the province level is raised.

This does not change the basic terrain type; it merely makes it more
suitable for habitation. So a swamp is still a swamp, but the areable areas
of the swamp become larger.

/Carl


----- Original Message -----
From: "Milos Rasic" <mrasic@TEHNICOM.NET>
To: <BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 12:02 AM
Subject: altering terrain in Birthright


> One of my players want to drain a swamp, and I have no idea how to
> handle it. Any suggestions?
>
>
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[ConjurerDragon]

Milos Rasic wrote:

>One of my players want to drain a swamp, and I have no idea how to
>handle it. Any suggestions?
>
Windmills? :-)
The Netherlands with their drainage system gaining land from where lakes
or marshes where could be a fine example for this.
bye
Michael

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[Lord Grave]

> >One of my players want to drain a swamp, and I have no idea how to
> >handle it. Any suggestions?
> >
> Windmills? :-)
> The Netherlands with their drainage system gaining land from
> where lakes or marshes where could be a fine example for
> this. bye Michael
>

Yes, I know about that, but when did this start in Netherlands?

BTW, if there are any Dutch here, the nature is going to strike back
sooner or later. Beware! :-)

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[Birthright-L]

On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Milos Rasic wrote:
> > The Netherlands with their drainage system gaining land from
> > where lakes or marshes where could be a fine example for
> > this. bye Michael
>
> Yes, I know about that, but when did this start in Netherlands?

I have a map in a textbook where much of the present landmass of the
Netherlands is a combination of little islands and lots of water. It`s
dated 1606, so after that :)

Did the Dutch really drain all that land, or was it more, dike it off and
let it evaporate?
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "daniel mcsorley" <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 7:04 PM

> Did the Dutch really drain all that land, or was it more, dike it off and
> let it evaporate?

A lot of those famous windmills pumped water more or less continuously.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Milos Rasic" <mrasic@TEHNICOM.NET>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 5:02 PM

> One of my players want to drain a swamp, and I have no idea how to
> handle it. Any suggestions?

As for draining marshlands in general, you are basically seperating the
water from the soil. So some places you convert to ponds, lakes, or river
channels, with sufficient depth to hold a good amount of water. The water
that drains out leaves ever so much more land exposed. Add the land dug out
to make the ponds, &c to the exposed land, and you have a still greater
difference between the water table and surface land. That`s how you do
something like that inland. Doing this on the coast involves building a
dike, or a system of dikes and continuously pumping water dug from wells on
the land side of the dike over to the water side. If you have the capacity
for considerable earth moving, that will help you fill in a marsh with land
of higher elevation.

In either case, maintaining the land requires constant effort and labor.
The initial construction can be based on the Fortess Builder`s Guide.
Maintenance is best subsumed into the maintenance costs of a high value
province.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Somebody could probably make a sourcebook detailing all the different things that could be done with a Build action.

Prestige Buildings (like Wonders from the Civilization games), bridges, castles, homes, roads, ships, boats, dungeons, tombs, catacombs, towers, dikes, landfills, siege weaponry, wagons, walls, shrines, cathedrals, huts, tree houses, citadels, etc. There could be a verbose description on each action; including its purpose, game effects, costs, maintenance, process, uses, etc.

It wouldn't take much work to make it better than the stronghold builder's guidebook, plus it would have a fairly broad scope (enough to warrant a separate book?) and would be Birthright specific (particularly in the area of balance).


The same could be said of Espionage, Diplomacy, Trade, and a few other domain actions. (They would have different foci, of course) Of course, I can always come up with ideas, I just need to work on them for longer. Now I'm starting to talk to myself...

[geeman]

At 12:02 AM 12/13/2002 +0100, Milos Rasic wrote:

>One of my players want to drain a swamp, and I have no idea how to handle
>it. Any suggestions?

For simplicity`s sake you could use some variation of the Monument action
to determine the cost of construction. As for the results of the
construction I`d just increase the potential population level of the
province a bit. In the past I`ve fiddled around with a Utility holding
that`s only purpose was to raise the potential population level of a
province, but the circular math was a bit hard to compute for practicality
in a P&P game. I still have a few types of construction that can raise a
province`s population level +1 to +3. The type of construction you`re
talking about here might fit better into that kind of system. As a
guideline I`d suggest 5GB for the first +1, 10GB more to get to +2 and
another 15GB to get a +3.

Gary

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[Peter Lubke]

On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 10:02, Milos Rasic wrote:
> One of my players want to drain a swamp, and I have no idea how to
> handle it. Any suggestions?

A normal small swamp?

Or a swamp province?

Draining the area for the Brisbane domestic airport took 8 years and
modern machinery and earth moving equipment (I can`t remember the exact
tonnage of sand they moved but it was lots). They had to raise it up as
well.


I`d argue that draining a swamp province is beyond the capabilities of
Cerilian technology. Especially if it`s near a large river or ocean.

Building the twin towers in NY was a major breakthrough in US
engineering. Initially the report said that digging the foundations for
such a large building couldn`t be done due to water seepage (you`d have
to drain the Hudson river to dig it normally apparently).

(They built the foundations underwater -- well under a water slurry
actually -- then pumped the water out when they were done)

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[ConjurerDragon]

Milos Rasic wrote:

>>>One of my players want to drain a swamp, and I have no idea how to
>>>handle it. Any suggestions?
>>>
>>Windmills? :-)
>>The Netherlands with their drainage system gaining land from
>>where lakes or marshes where could be a fine example for
>>this. bye Michael
>>
>
>Yes, I know about that, but when did this start in Netherlands?
>
>BTW, if there are any Dutch here, the nature is going to strike back
>sooner or later. Beware! :-)
>
I was on holiday in the Netherlands this year, in Schoorldam and visited
the Museum at near Alkmaar - there they had maps about old netherlands
and how the windmills continually pumped the water to gain more land.

I don´t remember a year, but it began before the battle at alkmaar
sometime during the 30years war (german) or 80jahrigeorloog(dutch) when
the people rebelled against the spanish overlord.

You could take a look at
www.alkmaar.nl
bye
Michael Romes
(Bannier Andien)

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[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> In either case, maintaining the land requires constant effort and labor.

Most certainly. That land is swampy not because some water once got into
it and just stayed a while -- it is swampy because it continually has more
water flowing into (and out of) it than the soil can hold. In order to
keep the land from turning back into a swamp again, you must keep pumping
water out faster than it comes in. Since continuously pumping is a
continuous effort and expenditure, projects like dikes and land-raising
are necessary to reduce the input of water to the system, just as the
windmills and other pumping devices increase the output to the river/sea.
If you try to drain an inland swamp, since the water cannot go directly to
the ocean, you are likely not to eliminate the swamp but just move it over
into the next province downstream.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> I`d argue that draining a swamp province is beyond the capabilities of
> Cerilian technology. Especially if it`s near a large river or ocean.

I agree that it is beyond their tech. Whether it is beyond their magic is
a separate question -- a realm spell requiring several very large sources
working in concert and huge amounts of RP could probably do it.


Ryan Caveney

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[geeman]

Land reclamation is as old as agriculture (in fact, the distinction between
the two might be a bit vague at a certain point) though admittedly that
reclamation wasn`t as sophisticated as a system of dikes and windmills to
pump whole regions dry until relatively recently. More modest (but still
impressive) reclamation projects have been possible for ages, however, so
I`d argue that an attempt to modify the terrain of a swampy province isn`t
beyond Cerilian technology.

Essentially such projects are meant to make more land viable for habitation
or cultivation. Actually draining a swamp entirely and turning the whole
region into productive farmland or generally a region pleasant for human
habitation probably is beyond technology that isn`t equivalent to around
that of Europe in the 18th century or so, but I think there`s maybe a bit
too much focus on the player`s description of his project being "drain the
swamp." What I suspect he`s really just after is a way to raise the
population of the province above that normally available for a province
with that type of terrain by a few levels. That kind of thing can be
accomplished as easily as saying for a cost of ?GB construction the
population maximum is raised by +X. One could assign a maintenance cost
for that construction if one wanted, but it was be just as easy to assume
that its cost was factored into the overall revenue increase from the
higher population level. Does that mean the regent has "drained the
swamps?" Not necessarily. It could be given a more mild description as
having drained some of the swamps, constructed a few jetties to reduce
flooding and making more area viable for agriculture, establishing bridges
or transport to relatively dry regions in the swamp where a population can
be supported and remain in contact with that of the rest of the province.

With the exception of deforestation, having the technology to actually
change the terrain type of a province would more than likely accompany
population densities higher than the level 10 standard in the BR domain rules.

Gary

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[kgauck]

I`m not sure that its beyond Cerilian technology, but I will concede that
the pace of such technology will take decades to convert a province from
swamp to plains. The Romans did it well before Renaissance tech, and the
Dutch began shortly afterwards. I`ve been unable to find Roman data on time
scale, but if I find some I`ll pass them along.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

After invading Britain in AD 43, the Romans investigated the steamy swampy
spot in the Avon valley that was so revered by the local people.

In the space of 30-40 years, Roman efficiency and engineering ingenuity had
drained the marsh, controlled and contained the water in a reservoir and
built a temple and Britan`s first health hydro. They called their city Aquae
Sulis (Sulis` Waters) and dedicated their temple to Sulis Minerva, their own
goddess of healing.

When the Romans left Britain in AD 410, the natives lacked the necessary
expertise to cope with the problems of silting and flooding. The site
rapidly returned to its original state - a marsh. Masonary sunk and
collapsed into it. Yet the principal hot spring still gushed and monks ran a
healing centre around what remained. Even through its obscure days, visitors
still came to drink and bath.

Rome itself was built on a swamp (well, originally the seven hills that
surrounded a wetland of the Tiber). A summer market was established on the
floodplain, but it was flooded and remained under water in spring.
According to tradition, the Tarquins (Etruscan kings of Rome) built a canal
drainage system which converted the market place into a permenant market.
That place became known as the Forum. This sewer, known as the Cloaca
Maxima, collected the waters of three meandering streams and channeled them
to the Tiber via the Forum and a part of central Rome known as Velabrum.
Velabrum was swampy area in which it was possible to float small boats. The
construction of the Cloaca Maxima drained this swamp and it became a center
of industry and commerce, esp for oil and wine.

http://www.ku.edu/history/index/europe/anc...er/Places/Europ (http://www.ku.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europ)
e/Italy/Lazio/Roma/Rome/.Texts/PLATOP*/Cloaca_Maxima.html

This web link covers the Cloaca Maxima, and its worthwhile (for those who
have gone this far) to click the link and scroll down to the image of the
sewer. Today it carries somewhere around one million cubic meters of water
per day.

It appears that one of the common Roman strategies was to build large
reservoirs and chanels to manage urban water which otherwise would settle,
rather than drain. In rural areas, they dug ponds, enlarged lakes, and
created lakes by building dams and dikes.

Other notable efforts were accomplished in the drainage of land for farming.
In 280 BC Manius Curius Dentalus drained the marshes of Rieti by cutting a
2,624-foot-long canal which was led deliberately to a precipice, forming a
dramatic waterfall. In 109 BC work on reclaiming the Po Valley was begun
under the direction of Aemilius Scaurus for the purpose of settling veteran
soldiers as farmers. This was done by cutting a system of canals through the
valley which were also used for navigation. The reclamation in this
previously uninhabitable area went on for hundreds of years. This fertile
area, known as Cisalpine Gaul, became the "cockpit of creativity in the
western world."

One notable project involving roman reclamation efforts can be found in the
Facinus Emissarium. This was a project ordered by Emperor Claudius which
involved lowering the level of the Lacus Fucinus in order to gain
approximately 38,000 acres (almost 60 sq miles) of new farmland. This
project required the digging of a 3.5 mile long tunnel through rock. The
tunnel was completed after 30,000 men labored for 11 years.

Medieval drainage projects took place as well. Major reclamation after
donations of marshland were executed by the abbeys of Fulda in Germany,
Saint Rémy from Reims in France, Saint Panthaleon in Cologne, Saint Amand in
Tournai, Sint Baafs and Sint Pieter in Ghent, and the Flemish Cistercian
monks of Ter Doest and Ter Duinen who became famous for their hydraulic
engineering projects in Zeeland. One of the earliest recorded reclamations
was in 1103 when Frederick, Bishop of Bremen, had the Wilster Marsh, a huge
area east of the River Elbe, drained and cultivated. Hand in hand with the
authority of the count, monastic orders were the only organised power, able
to recruit and to mobilise whole populations. One of the interesting
professions that come from this is the dredger, a laborer who would dredge
chanels to maintain the outflow by collecting silt and selling (!) it to
farmers at a handsome price.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Lee]

In a message dated 12/12/02 10:56:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
peterlubke@OPTUSNET.COM.AU writes:
On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 10:02, Milos Rasic wrote:
> One of my players want to drain a swamp, and I have no idea how to
> handle it. Any suggestions?
<< A normal small swamp?

Or a swamp province?

Draining the area for the Brisbane domestic airport took 8 years and
modern machinery and earth moving equipment (I can`t remember the exact
tonnage of sand they moved but it was lots). They had to raise it up as
well. >>


The city of Seattle`s waterfront was heavily modified from its natural
state using only one man, one wheelbarrow, and the waste from a sawmill (i.e.
sawdust), ca.1850-1880. The sidewalks are still a little crooked today.
(source: "Sons of the
profits" William C. Speidel, pp.219-220)
I`d say a small swamp is certainly within the technical reach of
Cerilians. A province might need the resources of the whole Empire. The
Romans certainly could have done it.

Lee.

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[ryancaveney]

Excellent research, Kenneth! Many thanks for sharing it.

I am persuaded that terrain changes are in principle possible, but they
are very far indeed from easy, cheap or quick.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> When the Romans left Britain in AD 410, the natives lacked the
> necessary expertise to cope with the problems of silting and flooding.
> The site rapidly returned to its original state - a marsh.

Which confirms that such projects, even when possible, require continual
maintenance. Thus if max province level is increased by some method,
there should be some sort of corresponding increase in GB (and RP?) upkeep
costs for the province. It`s not about changing the terrain type once and
for all, it`s about paying every turn to keep the increase above the
normal maximum for the (unchanged, at the province level) base terrain.

> This sewer, known as the Cloaca Maxima,

The special concern of perhaps the most ironically amusing aspect of the
goddess of love -- Venus Cloaquina!

> lowering the level of the Lacus Fucinus in order to gain approximately
> 38,000 acres (almost 60 sq miles) of new farmland. This project
> required the digging of a 3.5 mile long tunnel through rock. The
> tunnel was completed after 30,000 men labored for 11 years.

Aha! Numbers! 44 domain turns (132 action rounds) to clear just 4-6% of
a BR province, using the equivalent of 150 units of troops (or roughly the
entire adult population of a half-dozen province 3s, if you think level
equals people). Admittedly, a 3.5 mile tunnel through rock doesn`t sound
likely to be a typical part of this sort of endeavor, but the figures do
at least express that the clearing of even a minute amount of land (at the
BR scale) is an astonishingly immense undertaking.

> One of the earliest recorded reclamations was in 1103 when Frederick,
> Bishop of Bremen, had the Wilster Marsh, a huge area east of the River
> Elbe, drained and cultivated.

How long did this take? Less than a year, or did it merely start (or end)
in 1103? I suspect at the BR scale, actually changing terrain type would
be the work not of months, but of generations. At least part of this we
know from the elves` complaints against the humans -- 2,000 years ago,
nearly all of Cerilia was one big forest.

> a laborer who would dredge chanels to maintain the outflow by
> collecting silt and selling (!) it to farmers at a handsome price.

It makes darn good fertilizer, and even daily maintenance must create jobs
or it wouldn`t happen and all these products would revert to marsh. With
respect to my earlier comment about maintenance costs to the regent, what
they are meant to represent is not to claim that swamp 10s aren`t better
than swamp 4s (they clearly are), but rather that swamp 10s aren`t better
than plains 10s.


Ryan Caveney

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[kgauck]

> lowering the level of the Lacus Fucinus in order to gain
> approximately 38,000 acres (almost 60 sq miles) of new farmland.

Since I use 6 mile hexes, this amounts to two hexes. I guess that you could
add around 10,000 people if the farm land you aquired by drainage was of
good quality. If you want to be consistant with the BR population
densities, divide by 10.

BTW, I don`t think I mentioned it at the time, but Starfox`s assesment, "A
summary of my take on this is that the population figures are URBAN
population only," is very interesting, because it ends up producing a very
similar number that I get from a different means. I assume that population
figures are roughly 10 times the stated figures, but since I also assume
that 10% of the population is urban, we do effectivly get the same result.
(see Province level vs population [2#1128])

I have to wonder roughly what percentage of a marsh province would be marsh
and what percentage would be swamp. A swamp is seasonally flooded, and has
a fair proportion of woody plants. A marsh is usually under water and has a
more aquatic range of flora. While I`m here, a bog has standing water on
top of a rich mixture of decayed matter (often peat) and moss which is why
it has a reputation for ground that won`t support your wieght. I mention
this because converting a swamp to agricultural land really only requires
improving drainage by cutting some deep channels for water to flow. Farmers
will have some flooding, but depending on the deposition, that`s not
neccesarily a bad thing. A little fill and/or some dikes will even
eliminate flooding and deposition if it is. Converting a marsh to
agricultural land will require the construction of larger earthworks (both
channels and dikes) and pumps to keep the water from just seeping up from
below. You probably will also have to dig some lakes or ponds to collect
the water. Anyway, the differences between improving swamps and marshes is
considerable. The names Sunken Lands and Bogs, combined with the fact that
they`re at the coast tell me that we`re talking about marsh, possibly even
salt marsh. On the other hand, the water in Hope`s Demise might be
evacuated down the river that finds its source in that province. Some of it
might be pumped or drained (depending on elevation) to Ansien and
Caudraight, whose large populations could benefit from irrigation. Moving
the water of Hope`s Demise downstream will make the water table in the
downstream marsh (Bogsend, Sunken Lands, &c) rise. The city of Ruorven
might not like that at all. On the other hand, Ruorven might very well be
on a tall hill or some other outcropping that would allow the city to see a
temporary increase in water level without harm. Especially if that increase
were engineered to take place in late summer.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

At 07:08 PM 12/16/2002 -0600, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>I assume that population figures are roughly 10 times the stated figures,
>but since I also assume
>that 10% of the population is urban, we do effectivly get the same result.

How are you defining urban? That is, what size community qualifies as an
urban environment?

Gary

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 8:39 PM

> How are you defining urban? That is, what size community qualifies as an
> urban environment?

The settlement is not primarily a food producing settlement. People have
specialization in craft and profession skills. While they do gather in
urban places, I`m really counting not precisely urban, but non-agricultural.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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