Strongest Army

[Onwen Agelmore]

Who is the man that control the strong army of anuire...
More High Level Lt., more troops, ...

Speak your mind...
I think it is Prince Avan.

[irdeggman]

Other than the Gorgon you mean?

I say Ghoere.

[geeman]

In most regards you probably have to go with the Gorgon, the Magian or the
Raven. Among the non-awnsheghlien it`s probably Ghoere, but if you count
ships as part of the "military" then Avan probably has an advantage, but I
wouldn`t discount Boeruine either. If you include the total military
strength of the rulers with their control of various vassals, then Avan and
Boeruine (Ghoere is out of the running and so too are most of the
awnsheghlien, really, even the Big Three) but I think Avan has a bit of an
advantage.

Gary

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[Peter Lubke]

(Without vassals or allies - internal or external - ground forces by
number and quality)

1. Ghoere

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[Onwen Agelmore]

Whats stops Gorgon to conquer the anuire?
It isnt what he desires?

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Onwen Agelmore

Whats stops Gorgon to conquer the anuire? It isnt what he desires?
Nothing... It's a question why he didn't try it until now!

[Lawgiver]

Its part of an adventure plotline hook setup by the game designers for the GM to use. The Gorgon represents an overwhelming agent of evil for the PCs and all of Anuire to unite against. It can also be a used as a catalyst to bring about an emperor.

Why hasn't he struck yet? My personal opinion is that he believes he can still be defeated if Anuire were to be united under a single banner. I believe his strike is imminent, but he is waiting for Anuire to destroy itself from within. The boxed set leaves Anuire in a state in which the various regents will soon via for power through military force. When such a civil war ensues their forces will be weakened or engaged elsewhere and unable to come to the defense of the northeastern provinces. Simply being able to conquer your opponent on the battlefield does not guarantee victory. If the people oppose your rule you must be able to quell their rebellion. The Gorgon does not simple need the military strength to conquer the defenders of Anuire, but to be able to completely subdue it. It’s not exactly a small empire to hold in a stone tight fist.

[Lawgiver]

As too the original question... In terms of numbers its Avanil, in terms of military power and strength I beleive that Ghoere's forces are better trained, led and equipped. In an actual war I beleive Ghoere would be victorious.

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Onwen Agelmore" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 9:29 AM

> Whats stops Gorgon to conquer the anuire?
> It isnt what he desires?

Its the Gorgon against the world. Them`s stiff odds, even for a nearly
imortal being. Plus, the Gorgon has trained the world to be vigilant
against him. If any serious move is made against any realm, the world has
been pretty good about resisting en mass. Obviously some occassions have
arrisen in which the world has not gotten together (and by world I just mean
a force sufficient to repel the Gorgon). Kiergard is the most recent
example. But as we know, once bitten is twice shy, so Kiergard acts as just
the most recent reminder of why vigilence and unity in the face of the
Gorgon is so critical.

Further, actual conquest is hard. Its much harder than victory. For one
thing, it requires a fairly long period of occupation. The standard rules,
esp as expressed in the computer game, don`t reflect this well. The
peasants might not have a great deal of interest over whether they are
governed by Ghoere or Mhoried, but I`m reasonably sure they certainly don`t
want to be subjects of the Gorgon. The one place where the rules really
support something like this is in the Rebellion rules on p.48. A province
in rebellion puts all holdings into a virtual state of contest. You can`t
rule contested holdings up, and ruling them out of contest is meaningless
because if the province is still in rebellion (or will fall back
momentarily) they`re contested again.

In terms of random events, recently conquered areas are subject to
Assasination, Feud, Corruption or Crime, Brigandage, Intrigue, Unrest or
Rebellion, Matter of Justice, and Great Captain. Let examine each one of
these in the specific context of a province recenly conquered by the Gorgon.

Assasination: This is the resistance against the Gorgon in action. The
attempt is almost certainly made against a key lieutenant rather than the
Gorgon himself, but its a pain in the neck none the less. If its
unresolved, the lieutenant could be killed, forcing the Gorgon to send in
someone from the bench.

Feud: The obvious issue hear is a conflict between companies of troops.
Perhaps the dwarves and orogs have come to blows. Or humans and gnolls.
Perhaps its just two human companies fighting over spoils. Maybe a personal
rivalry between captains. The struggle within the Gorgon`s organization
cost him one level of a law holding (if he`s begun to build them) and he`s
got to deal with the conflict in his own ranks. This could even cost him
regency.

Corruption or Crime: The text on this one certainly applies to conquered
territory. Its a case of the Gorgon`s underlings taking too great a portion
of the spoils, to the point here it costs the Gorgon. Maybe he thinks its a
cost of doing business of this kind, maybe he kills the offender with that
officer`s replacement as an afterthought. Either way, doesn`t make the job
easier.

Brigandage: Troops in conquered territory are liable to this, a lower level
talking to great of the spoils. Of course this can also be raids of
displaced locals comming back to burn and destroy their former stuff before
it can be used for greater evil. It could be a small as tying down a unit,
to causing a loss in income of 1d6 GB. If left unresolved, its supposed to
be a major loss of regency. Though given the Gorgon`s policies, that`s
probabaly not appropraite. He`s not out to protect his people. Still that
may just be another price to pay for being against the land`s will.

Intrigue: Good help is hard to find. Its one of the reasons that the
Gorgon culls his staff every decade or so. Giving them actual
responsibility just invites their disloyalty.

Unrest or Rebellion: A serious problem for the prospective conqueror. The
residents want their old ruler back. Or maybe just anyone but the Gorgon.
In any event, loyalty drops and the Gorgon has to expend an action to
resolve it. Such an event could assist former rulers who are fomenting
rebellion.

Matter of Justice: A people occupied by the Gorgon certainly have
grievances. Of course its manifest more in the form of a rebellion than in
a polite petition, but it still has the risk of reducing loyalty one grade
in the whole realm (defined as a territory with similar sentiments). If the
Gorgon gets this event in Kiergard, one can say that Brand Mournsinger has
rallied the people with some declaration or word has spread of a meeting of
Kiergard`s true nobles. Hope in a restoration or just hatred for the Gorgon
results in conundrum from the Gorgon. He can do they benevolent tyrant
thing and release a few prisoners, grant mercy to capital cases, relax his
iron grip a bit and take the bloodline hit, or more likely, suffer the
loyalty hit. In a newly conquered province or provinces this would likewise
reflect a resistance declaration, hope for restoration or hatred of the
Gorgon, and again a probable loyalty grade reduction for all concerned
provinces.

Great Captain: This comes from outside the Gorgon`s organization. Its a
spontaneous creation of a serious leader of the resistance. A charismatic
hero has come to defend the populous. A conquered province suddenly sees
it`s law holding crushed by the hero who suddenly gains a similar lawholding
himself. Robin Hood has removed the Sheriff of Nottingham. The hero could
cause the rebellion to spread. Every turn the leader is out and about, he
gains another holding or province. The Gorgon can`t win the hero over, so
assasination, capture, or military action is needed.

In addition to all of this headache, a gigantic pool of regency and actions
are out there to foment problems and resistance in any new conquests.
Consider this tactic. The Gorgon has taken Marloer`s Gap and Dhalsiel. The
Mhor, Haelyn`s Aegis, Erik`s Oaken Grove, and the Maesil Shippers have a
hardened holding each. By hardened I mean it may be a secret holding, it
may be fortified, it may be hiding out in "Sherwood Forest". A holding is
people, not structures, so the key people of the holding still have a bond
with the people and are still operating in the province. Haelyn`s Aegis and
Erik`s Oaken Grove use their free Agitate actions to keep the province in
rebellion. Maesil Shippers uses its free Espionage action to stir up
trouble for the Gorgon`s occupation force. The Mhor and other rulers
contest any Gorgon friendly holdings preventing practical conquest from
taking place. Eventually the Gorgon regards these provinces as such a drain
on his pool of men, GB`s, and RP`s, that he just abandons them.

Its easy for him to march anywhere and defeat any one army, or any number of
armies in succession. Its holding land that is the problem. To hold land
he needs to reduce the power of the rulers most able to resist him.
Basically all the rulers in Mhoried, Ghoere, and Elinie, both landed and
holding, need to have their base of support cut out from under them. The
problem is, the Gorgon can`t do it himself. If the Gorgon were to rampage
around in central Anuire, pillaging and destroying, first he`d see the
soutern and western coasts build up armies to contest him. Second, the
longer it took for him to weaken the center, the more likely that the nobles
and rulers of Anuire would decided that it was time to put differences aside
and recognize Darien Avan as Emperor, with Aeric Boeruine as Chancellor,
Heirl Diem as Steward, and Gavin Tael as Marshal.

So, the Gorgon tries to set the nobles off against one another so that they
weaken each other. He`s outsourced the destruction to the rulers
themselves. Depending on how much you imagine they pillage one another,
this may or may not be working. The Gorgon would like to hope that so much
bad blood passes between the rulers of Anuire that if he were to go on the
offensive it would take so long to organize a concerted resistance, and that
coalition would be so shakey that it would not amont to a unified
resistance. But, obviously, all of this has not come to pass.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Sir Justine]

Kenneth explained very well, but it can be resumed in his first sentence why the Gorgon doesn't take all Anuire:
"Its the Gorgon against the world".
He may be the single strongest regent, but against all kingdoms united he could fall. The question is: will they unite in time?

But back to the original question, the Baron of Ghoere has the strongest army because he doens't plays by the rules. Sure, neither Prince Avan nor Archduke Boeruine are totally honorable, but they have at least a little honor. The baron, however, follows only HIS rules.

[irdeggman]

There is also the possibility of the elves uniting with the humans again (ala Azrai). The big G would most definitely hate that potential.

[Green Knight]

Or it might be that despite a very nice world with a special character not found in any other game line, the BR world is still without a living history. The Gorgon hasn't taken over Anuire because the game is set to NOW.

In fact, when you look at it, VERY little have changed in Anuire given 5 centuries of more or less constant intrigue and war. Especially given the relatively small size of Anuire, I find it peculiar than no-one has managed to do anything remotely meaningful yet...

[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Green Knight" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:13 PM


> In fact, when you look at it, VERY little have changed in Anuire given
> 5 centuries of more or less constant intrigue and war. Especially given
> the relatively small size of Anuire, I find it peculiar than no-one has
> managed to do anything remotely meaningful yet...

Assuming that no one had done much in the recent past assumes that we have
the totality of history before us. There may well be bold and interesting
happenings which happened but no longer dominate the present. For example,
we could imagine the Grand Baron Richard the Bold of Coeranys. At that time
Coeranys included Gulfport, Moergan, the Sunken Lands, Osoerine, Hopes
Demise, and what is now known as the Chimaeron. One of Richard`s
lieutenants was made the count of Moergan, and was known by that name
afterward. His line later became masters of Osoerde. Ibrahim ibn Daouta
swore fealty to the Grand Baron. Thrice did Richard match his armies
against the Gorgon, and thrice did Richard turn the old abomination back.
The elves of the Sielwood called him their ally and fought the Gorgon with
him. Of course, his mighty realm has since been humbled, even Richard`s
decedents were eventually replaced by the Cariele line.

In Europe, the modern states of western and central Europe were mostly
established and recognizable after Charlemagne, and certainly by 1000 CE.
While one could look at a map of then and now and declare that not much had
happened I suspect such an appraisal would provoke rebuttal.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[geeman]

Another possible "explanation" for the Gorgon not having succeeded in
taking over Anuire (or most of the rest of Cerilia) is the "character
issue." By that I mean that the Raesene may in his stony heart of hearts
be incapable of initiating or completing that process. In the classic
heroic sense, it is his fatal flaw. Shakespearean examples are probably
apt (and usually the best examples anyway) so in the same way Hamlet hems
and haws, unable to commit to a course of action until he is himself
doomed, or in the way Othello is blind to the plotting of Iago and murders
his own true love, the Gorgon`s personality and character may itself not be
able to fulfill what is, in effect, his true purpose.

This is particularly poignant if the DM has some measure of sympathy for
the corrupted creature that was once a prince of the Empire, and plays him
as essentially a tragic figure... albeit one that can mow down an army and
commit a dozen bloodthefts before brunch. The situation is even more
dramatized if at some point the DM makes the players aware that the
Gorgon`s "Herculean Deed" required for ascension to the lower ranks of
deities is to do exactly what he is incapable of doing--reunite the
Anuirean Empire under the banner of its rightful heir: himself. He`s
certainly the one with the clearest and most direct claim to the throne of
anyone alive in Cerilia. If godhood is his ultimate aim, and empire the
path to that route, his inability to complete that conquest makes him all
that much more troubled a figure.

Exactly what is the source and nature of this mental/spiritual
block? There are several things that one could take into account. First
and foremost, the circumstances of his birth. Raesene`s illegitimacy is
something that goes to the root of his psyche. It had profound
developmental influences on his childhood, youth and young adulthood. That
his obvious talents were ignored and always relegated to the 2nd tier of
recognition behind his younger, less accomplished brothers must tear at his
soul. It`s been 1,500 years, of course, but one of the curses of Azrai`s
bloodline is a physical transformation to the inner personality. In many
ways the awnsheghlien become MORE who they are as the years go by. In most
cases, and the Gorgon particularly, they become set into a specialized
course of evolution. The Gorgon, of course, is becoming more rigid and
stony as time goes on. Where "normal" people may (arguably) be capable of
change, the curse of Azrai`s blood influences Raesene`s personality as well
as his body. He becomes more scarred emotionally as time goes on, more
embittered to the injustices of his youth, more angry, spiteful and vengeful.

Another factor is to consider the nature of the "possession" created by the
blood of Azrai. In many ways Azrai represented what is in Judeo-Christian
ideology analogous to Satan. He is the Father of Lies and Deceit, capable
of creating illusions and clouding men`s minds, tempting and prodding them
with falsehoods. But when it comes to direct action he`s less less
forceful, sometimes even described as helpless. I`m thinking of several
interpretations of the Devil here, mostly those of John Milton`s _Paradise
Lost_ but in many ways Azrai is and always will be the ghostly figure of
the Shadow World who motivated an army to go to war in his service, but his
power was itself embodied in that ability to motivate rather than act
himself, and when he was able to motivate the continent to war he was
defeated. The ghost of his essence embodied by the Gorgon and so many
other awnsheghlien may itself have a measure of reticence to it as part of
the nature of diabolic power, the shadowy nature of its origins or in
response to its ultimate failure at Deismaar.

From a personality standpoint, it`s possible that beneath his facade of
violence and strength Raesene is essentially a coward. Despite the
circumstances of his birth, Raesene was a privileged youth. He describes
himself as having adventured for years, but that may just be the braggart`s
cover for his inner lack of self-worth and knowledge that he is, in fact,
fearful. He may fear his own success, or he may fear to fail in such a way
that all of Cerilia knows it--which they would if he flubbed a bid for the
Empire. There`s a quote that goes something like "Never insult a man
unless he`s capable of drubbing you. Then insult him at will." That`s a
test of a bravery and character. Raesene may be the sort of person who has
worked very hard so as to never run into that man who might beat him, but
if he did he wouldn`t have the courage to insult him directly.

Last but not least, there`s the possibility that he`s prevented from taking
over by Powers greater than himself. The gods may influence his actions,
some consciousness greater than they may be at work (Fate, a Supreme Being,
the abstract forces that control the BR continuum, Aebrynis itself may be a
living being of greater power than any of the gods) all of which have
placed him in a paradox that he can`t break free of.

Gary

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[teloft]

This topic was mentiond in a reply to
"Osprey" post with the topic of
"Why Hasn&#39;t The Gorgon Won Yet?"

:ph34r: