bloodline creation (was Regent classes)

[ryancaveney]

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, daniel mcsorley wrote:

> Whoa, you just boggled my mind there. That`s a very interesting use
> of the land`s choice rule.

Thanks. =)

> Quibbles: Bloodlines boundary conditions were poorly defined.

Good point.

> bloodline 0 (because you can have a bloodline less than 1, but round
> fractions down),

In my first version of this rule, what I said was that every sentient
creature had some tiny spark of divinity (which predates Deismaar, but
anyway) -- every member of any PC species has some bloodline, even if one
as small as one-billionth of the power represented by Bloodline Score 1;
but this would never be noticed until such a person became a regent.

> Also, isn`t there a rule that you can only invest RP into your bloodline
> once per domain turn? I think I remember that.

Indeed there is. One point per domain turn is also possible, if slightly
less pretty mathematically. I like formulae with aesthetic appeal.

What I first came up used this; say you had a bloodline of 0.001, or
roughly 2^-10. If you have a holding of even one level, you`d get
max(bloodline, domain power) per turn, so in two domain turns you`d have
2^-9 RP saved up. The only thing you could do with this small an amount
of RP is to spend them on increasing your bloodline to 2^-9; thus you`d
have a bloodline of 1 after 20 turns. In practice the only thing to keep
track of is to roll some dice (d4 or 3d20 or whatever you like) and say
that after that many DT, you got a bloodline of 1. The trouble is, that`s
way too slow to keep a new regent from getting utterly squashed.

> Second turn, he gets bloodline 1. Third turn, bloodline 2. This could
> only continue as long as there`s uncollected RP around to raise his
> bloodline in one turn, it shouldn`t bank. So his best bloodline he could
> get `free` like this would be half his domain power.

This also seems reasonable. The reason I like multiple-point increases
each turn is to scale the amount of growth to the power of the domain
inherited, so that the effect of inheriting an 80-point domain versus a
40-point one is not just to keep the same slow growth going on twice as
long, but rather to have growth happen faster (e.g., 2 turns instead of 5
to bloodline 16). This both fits my picture of how such a thing ought to
feel (instant rush of power then a rapidly slowing increase, rather than a
steady progression all the way through) and helps such regents survive
long enough to have a chance to manage their domains in the long term.
If we kept multi-point increases but dropped banking them between turns,
then they`d stop at half-strength but still grow quickly for a time and
then level off to linear, reaching their full "free" score in a number of
domain turns equal to half that score; there also wouldn`t be any turns in
which there was no present increase but would be a future one. I think I
might like this better.


Ryan Caveney

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[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-12-05 at 11:51, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, daniel mcsorley wrote:
>
> > Whoa, you just boggled my mind there. That`s a very interesting use
> > of the land`s choice rule.
>
> Thanks. =)
>
> > Quibbles: Bloodlines boundary conditions were poorly defined.
>
> Good point.
>
> > bloodline 0 (because you can have a bloodline less than 1, but round
> > fractions down),
>
> In my first version of this rule, what I said was that every sentient
> creature had some tiny spark of divinity (which predates Deismaar, but
> anyway) -- every member of any PC species has some bloodline, even if one
> as small as one-billionth of the power represented by Bloodline Score 1;
> but this would never be noticed until such a person became a regent.
>
> > Also, isn`t there a rule that you can only invest RP into your bloodline
> > once per domain turn? I think I remember that.
>
> Indeed there is. One point per domain turn is also possible, if slightly
> less pretty mathematically. I like formulae with aesthetic appeal.
>
> What I first came up used this; say you had a bloodline of 0.001, or
> roughly 2^-10. If you have a holding of even one level, you`d get
> max(bloodline, domain power) per turn, so in two domain turns you`d have
> 2^-9 RP saved up. The only thing you could do with this small an amount
> of RP is to spend them on increasing your bloodline to 2^-9; thus you`d
> have a bloodline of 1 after 20 turns. In practice the only thing to keep
> track of is to roll some dice (d4 or 3d20 or whatever you like) and say
> that after that many DT, you got a bloodline of 1. The trouble is, that`s
> way too slow to keep a new regent from getting utterly squashed.

RP = max(DP, BP)
avoids all this.

A blooded character starting from scratch has RP = BP.
A non-blooded character gaining control of a domain (but not a
bloodline) has RP = DP.

Except of course a non-blooded character trying to build a domain from
scratch will move pretty slowly.

Gain of BP is a roll against
prob% = max((DP-BP),0)/(DP)

i.e. You only gain BP if your DP value exceeds your BP


>
> > Second turn, he gets bloodline 1. Third turn, bloodline 2. This could
> > only continue as long as there`s uncollected RP around to raise his
> > bloodline in one turn, it shouldn`t bank. So his best bloodline he could
> > get `free` like this would be half his domain power.
>
> This also seems reasonable. The reason I like multiple-point increases
> each turn is to scale the amount of growth to the power of the domain
> inherited, so that the effect of inheriting an 80-point domain versus a
> 40-point one is not just to keep the same slow growth going on twice as
> long, but rather to have growth happen faster (e.g., 2 turns instead of 5
> to bloodline 16). This both fits my picture of how such a thing ought to
> feel (instant rush of power then a rapidly slowing increase, rather than a
> steady progression all the way through) and helps such regents survive
> long enough to have a chance to manage their domains in the long term.
> If we kept multi-point increases but dropped banking them between turns,
> then they`d stop at half-strength but still grow quickly for a time and
> then level off to linear, reaching their full "free" score in a number of
> domain turns equal to half that score; there also wouldn`t be any turns in
> which there was no present increase but would be a future one. I think I
> might like this better.
>
>
> Ryan Caveney
>
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[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> RP = max(DP, BP) avoids all this.

So it does. And it makes it much easier for newly-starting regents to
defend their first few holdings. I just can`t see that it makes much
sense -- what is your metaphysical explanation for what`s "really"
happening? The specter of hundreds of blooded scions without any domains
at all building up thousands of RPs also disturbs me greatly. If your
rule really is `if DP > 0, then RP = max(DP, BP); else RP = 0`, that
problem disappears, but what is the in-game fantasy physics mechanism
used to explain the caveat?


Ryan Caveney

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[Peter Lubke]

On Fri, 2002-12-06 at 12:48, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:
>
> > RP = max(DP, BP) avoids all this.
>
> So it does. And it makes it much easier for newly-starting regents to
> defend their first few holdings. I just can`t see that it makes much
> sense -- what is your metaphysical explanation for what`s "really"
> happening? The specter of hundreds of blooded scions without any domains
> at all building up thousands of RPs also disturbs me greatly. If your
> rule really is `if DP > 0, then RP = max(DP, BP); else RP = 0`, that
> problem disappears, but what is the in-game fantasy physics mechanism
> used to explain the caveat?

Oh, I never allow regency to accumulate. You can`t have `more` regency
because you didn`t exercise your regency in the last few months. How can
one be `more regal` for having done nothing?

No blooded character, with or without a domain, can store regency (and
hence accumulate the game mechanic measurement of it - RP). To gain more
regency you must either
(i) create a domain that exceeds your inherent bloodline potential --
thus proving yourself worthy for a bloodline increase as well
(ii) increase your bloodline through bloodtheft or other magical means

As for the metaphysical `reason`:

A characters `personal power` comes from their bloodline alone. These
persons were born to rule. Some have greater power than others. They
have an advantage in creating a domain over those with less bloodline.

A domain has organizational power, and the head of that organization is
respected as a powerful person - i.e. the regency tranfers to the
person. Some men are born to greatness, others have it thrust upon them.

Even so, having been `made` powerful - a character will begin to have
personal power in any case. Call it self-belief or whatever you will.


e.g. We could posit a realm where the ruler is elected - a republic.
While a character with a bloodline might be seen as being a better
choice (born to rule), he could be an arrogant SOB that alienates the
people - perhaps after a term in office, perhaps even before.

An unblooded character might be seen by the people as a better choice.
(Not to be confused with the land`s choice). On assuming the mantle of
Protector of Greenfell, this character will slowly become blooded as
well.

Say Greenlock generates 20 points of Domain Power. The character will
have 20 RP per turn to play with - it can never accumulate, and in order
to generate more - he`ll have to build the domain up.

In the meantime, he may gain bloodline - the longer he stays in office
and the better he does the more bloodline he will gain.

Turn 1. The protector has a (20-0)/20 = 100% chance of gaining a
bloodline point
Turn 2. The chance is (20-1)/20 = 95% chance.
etc....

So the previous Protector will have some personal power after he leaves
office, reflecting the status of being an ex-Protector. It`s unlikely to
be as high as 20 BP of course, and you wouldn`t want that.

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> Oh, I never allow regency to accumulate. You can`t have `more` regency
> because you didn`t exercise your regency in the last few months. How
> can one be `more regal` for having done nothing?

Ah, OK then. I would view regency accumulation as akin to doing favors,
but not calling them in until a later date. Similarly, I like the ability
to mechanic negotiations like "OK, I`ll do this really big thing for you,
but then you have to leave me alone for a while" vs. asking for something
minor all the time. Showing restraint in the demands placed on
subordinates is one part of sustainable leadership. Still, I can see your
side (as well as Kenneth`s half-life idea), and it does prevent the
excessive accumulation problem I feared.

> A characters `personal power` comes from their bloodline alone. These
> persons were born to rule. Some have greater power than others. They
> have an advantage in creating a domain over those with less bloodline.
>
> A domain has organizational power, and the head of that organization is
> respected as a powerful person - i.e. the regency tranfers to the
> person. Some men are born to greatness, others have it thrust upon them.

You begin to win me over. =)

> Say Greenlock generates 20 points of Domain Power. The character will
> have 20 RP per turn to play with - it can never accumulate, and in
> order to generate more - he`ll have to build the domain up.

I wonder if this means your campaign has more frequent but smaller RP
bidding wars than most others -- use it or lose it means you may as well
toss whatever you`ve got into any resolution die roll.

One other nice thing it does is explain the endurance of powerful
Awnsheghlien with tiny realms, like Rhuobhe and the Spider -- 11 (or 0!)
RP per domain turn means that on the wargame level, they ought to be easy
pickings for their neighbors; but with 80 RP per turn and only a couple of
holdings to defend, they need never really fear Contest actions and can
maintain a sizable army without much of a GB income. Looks good.

I know you`ve made this suggestion before without convincing me, but now I
might be coming around to your way of thinking. The one thematic aspect
missing which I might like to see restored from the original rules is the
problem of having inherited an office that is too much for you, and having
a difficult time living up to it until you have somehow proven yourself.

> In the meantime, he may gain bloodline - the longer he stays in office
> and the better he does the more bloodline he will gain.

Where "the better he does" is defined by how many points of domain power
he adds to the realm, yes?

> So the previous Protector will have some personal power after he leaves
> office, reflecting the status of being an ex-Protector.

Yes, good. And if he retires to become mayor of a small town, ruling only
a couple points of law holdings, his prestige and consequent authority
will exceed that normally paid a regent of so small a domain. Fine. If
nothing else, I think this system does a rather good job of modeling the
senatorial families of republican Rome....

> It`s unlikely to be as high as 20 BP of course,

Expectation is that it would hit 20 on domain turn 72, after 18 years as
Protector. Not at all unreasonable.


Ryan Caveney

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[irdeggman]

Question - since everyone is blooded, does that mean anyone can become a wizard?

[Peter Lubke]

On Sat, 2002-12-07 at 07:27, Ryan B. Caveney wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:
>
> > Oh, I never allow regency to accumulate. You can`t have `more` regency
> > because you didn`t exercise your regency in the last few months. How
> > can one be `more regal` for having done nothing?
>
> Ah, OK then. I would view regency accumulation as akin to doing favors,
> but not calling them in until a later date. Similarly, I like the ability
> to mechanic negotiations like "OK, I`ll do this really big thing for you,
> but then you have to leave me alone for a while" vs. asking for something
> minor all the time. Showing restraint in the demands placed on
> subordinates is one part of sustainable leadership. Still, I can see your
> side (as well as Kenneth`s half-life idea), and it does prevent the
> excessive accumulation problem I feared.

Kenneth`s half-life is just a longer period in which the points
dissipate.

I see the RP as a mechanic for representing `regency` in a spendable
form -- how much you can regency you can exercise per domain turn. A
characters `regency power` will be the value that he collected in RP at
the start of the turn, not how much he/she has left. To save it (even a
fraction) means that your regency `value/status/whatever` can fluctuate
more than what I would call a regents `best value` (full RP). But hey,
that`s just my opinion.

There are two arguments to the "What have you done for me lately?"
question. Both have valid points of view.
(i) If you didn`t spend RP in a previous turn - then you haven`t done
much lately - and hence are seen as less influential. (OTOH: How lately
is lately? -- it`s just a line in the sand)
(ii) If you didn`t spend RP in a previous turn then you are still "owed"
some favors -- even if much later in the future (OTOH: Can you "rely" on
this? -- ?!sigh!?)


> > A characters `personal power` comes from their bloodline alone. These
> > persons were born to rule. Some have greater power than others. They
> > have an advantage in creating a domain over those with less bloodline.
> >
> > A domain has organizational power, and the head of that organization is
> > respected as a powerful person - i.e. the regency tranfers to the
> > person. Some men are born to greatness, others have it thrust upon them.
>
> You begin to win me over. =)
>
> > Say Greenlock generates 20 points of Domain Power. The character will
> > have 20 RP per turn to play with - it can never accumulate, and in
> > order to generate more - he`ll have to build the domain up.
>
> I wonder if this means your campaign has more frequent but smaller RP
> bidding wars than most others -- use it or lose it means you may as well
> toss whatever you`ve got into any resolution die roll.

Well, ... usually a players regent has one or perhaps two actions that
h/she *really* wants to get through. Now depending on your initiative
and whether you "hold" your action .. a player can try to "go last" or
"go first" ... or more usually, "go last" on the second last action and
"go first" on the last -- getting two actions in a row. So, mostly,
there`s no real bidding wars in the first half. In the last action round
- all hell can break loose. Of course you can always try to pull a bluff
and attempt your important action first -- hoping everyone else lays off
and doesn`t counter-attack later when you have no RP left.

>
> One other nice thing it does is explain the endurance of powerful
> Awnsheghlien with tiny realms, like Rhuobhe and the Spider -- 11 (or 0!)
> RP per domain turn means that on the wargame level, they ought to be easy
> pickings for their neighbors; but with 80 RP per turn and only a couple of
> holdings to defend, they need never really fear Contest actions and can
> maintain a sizable army without much of a GB income. Looks good.
>
> I know you`ve made this suggestion before without convincing me, but now I
> might be coming around to your way of thinking. The one thematic aspect
> missing which I might like to see restored from the original rules is the
> problem of having inherited an office that is too much for you, and having
> a difficult time living up to it until you have somehow proven yourself.

Yes, well - if you don`t have a bloodline higher than your domain power
- any sniping at your domain will reduce your RP per turn. So if you
can`t defend it with what you`ve got -- then you end up getting weaker.

A regent like el-Hadid has more DP than BP, (IMC it`s about 35 to 17) so
any loss to his holdings is a loss of RP that`s harder to replace - he
has to build up DP again. Whereas a character with the reverse ratio
will not be affected by the loss - and will have more resources to
recoup with.

Initiative: rather than use character level for initiative
bonus/penalty, I use (BP-DP)/5 which means that characters with a domain
larger than their bloodline will be a little less able to gain
initiative. It`s not much of an advantage -- except when regents like
Darien Avan and Caliedhe Dosiere clash!! hee hee (that old silver fox
can`t be outmaneuvered by that young whippersnapper any day soon)

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[ryancaveney]

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, irdeggman wrote:

> Question - since everyone is blooded, does that mean anyone can
> become a wizard?

Is this referring to my "every sentient creature is at least
infinitesimally blooded" idea? If so, I would say no -- there is a
threshold of bloodedness necessary to be able to wield magic successfully.
There need be no change from the existing rules if that threshold is set
at one point. I am tempted to say that much as the relevant ability score
sets the highest level of spell that can be cast, so should the full
bloodline score -- perhaps set the maximum allowed spell level to
one-fourth or one-fifth of the bloodline (people with tainted bloodlines
in the 1 to 3 or 1 to 4 point range would be allowed 0-level spells only).


Ryan Caveney

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[irdeggman]

So a wizard has 2 relevent ability scores to worry about - Intelligence and the bloodline? On the surface this seems to be too restrictive for potential wizards, fighters don't have to worry about having their basic class abilities limited because they have a minor bloodline so neither should a wizard. Just my opinion.

The original rule was that the character just had to be blooded, no specification on strength.

[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 08:14, irdeggman wrote:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1133
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> So a wizard has 2 relevent ability scores to worry about - Intelligence and the bloodline? On the surface this seems to be too restrictive for potential wizards, fighters don`t have to worry about having their basic class abilities limited because they have a minor bloodline so neither should a wizard. Just my opinion.
>
> The original rule was that the character just had to be blooded, no specification on strength.

While we can argue what the theoretical attitudes of the peoples of
Cerilia are to wizards -- and we can also to-and-fro the attitudes of
players of fantasy games, I think it`s a given that fantasy games are
around at least in part so that players can play a wizard. Without
wizards there would be historical role-playing etc etc. (in fact that`s
exactly how it started)

But in Cerilia -- source wizards are rare. Couple of dozen on the
continent - isn`t that what it says? A couple of dozen! Ignoring the
attitude of the Vos and the Rjurik, ignore even if you will the
Anuireans - and ignore the elves - ignore even the Brecht. How rare in a
magic-friendly society like the Khinasi are source wizards? -- I think
you`d agree that even if all the source wizards in Cerilia (couple of
dozen) were all Khinasi, then source wizards would still be rare in
Khinasi.

Aha! you pounce, but not all wizards control sources. This is true, so
let`s think about it. Which wizards do control sources? What
qualifications do you need? Why would a character want to? Why would
he/she not want to? Seeing the very personal nature of wizardry in
general wouldn`t it be reasonable to say that, in general, the more
powerful wizards control the sources? So what of the other wizards - is
their potential limited? - is their future limited? how many are there?
Unlike faiths which would attract blooded priests like moths to a flame
in the hope of eventually becoming high priest (or whatever) - there is
no such thing for wizards.

So if any wizard has the potential to become a powerful source caster -
if they can become a powerful wizard - then why are then there so few?
And now to speculation, supposition and less concrete notions. What if a
wizard not only has to be blooded to cast true magic, the degree to
which they are blooded determines how powerful they may become - e.g.
tainted bloodlines can cast only 1st and 2nd level spells or some such.
While the character may rise and rise in levels, they may be unable to
access higher level spells. Thus only strongly blooded characters may
stick with wizardry for any time - others may quickly reach the limit of
their potential.

From a player perspective, none of this becomes a problem. After all, if
a player wants to be a powerful wizard, any reasonable DM should allow
him/her the resources to potentially achieve the dream.

--- just idle thoughts --

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[geeman]

At 11:45 AM 12/12/2002 +1100, Peter Lubke wrote:

>But in Cerilia -- source wizards are rare. Couple of dozen on the
>continent - isn`t that what it says? A couple of dozen!

The RB says "six or seven score true mages; less than half that number are
regents capable of wielding realm magic." If we were to take that
statement as an actual count then that makes for 120-140 wizards and 60
wizards (give or take about 10) who control sources. I counted up the
wizards in the published materials once and it came out to more than that
140 true wizards. (The 1st-3rd level population of the College of Sorcery,
in fact, accounts for more than that many.) There are certainly more than
70 wizards who control sources. There`s about twice that number of wizards
who control sources (or the total number of wizards that statement suggests
there are in toto.) We must also assume (as you point out) that they don`t
mean elven or half-elven wizards, since they can cast true magic without a
bloodline.

Another way to look at this distinction, though, is that a "true wizard"
isn`t really a "true wizard" until he hits 5th level, at which point his
bloodline (or elven heritage) gives him access to the 3rd level magics that
"commoners" and non-elves cannot cast. If one then tweaks the definition
of "true mage" to someone who actually can cast "true magic" rather than
just being someone capable of levelling up to the point where they can cast
true magic, then there may very well only be that six or seven score true
(non-elven heritage) mages. There may be hundreds, even thousands of
1st-4th level blooded wizards running around on Cerilia, but since there is
very little in the way of magical ability to distinguish such wizards from
magicians there`s no point in counting them amongst the "true
mages." Personally, I kind of like this distinction, and wonder if it
might even be sensible, therefore, to make True Mage a sort of prestige
class available only to scions and those with elven blood in a BR D20
system....

I think we understand you`re point, though. Even with a population of
millions "true wizards" are supposed to be a rarity, no matter how one
defines the term. As written, however, the BR rules don`t really account
for how rare, and there`s no clear statement of what is meant by several of
the terms used to describe such characters. My own take on this stuff is
that "true magic" should be rare, but there is no reason why lesser magics
should be any more rare than any other campaign setting. The 3e rules, of
course, do lower some of the levels for spells from 2e and most striking is
probably the access of spellcasters in 3e to magic item creation, but in
many ways the payoff for that distinction is that magic item creation is
much more clearly articulated than it was in 2e and IMO sensible.

Gary

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[irdeggman]

This then brings up the other point - elves can be wizards without the benefit of a bloodline, although they can't cast realm magics without one.

[Peter Lubke]

On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 14:25, irdeggman wrote:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1133
>
> irdeggman wrote:
> This then brings up the other point - elves can be wizards without the benefit
> of a bloodline, although they can`t cast realm magics without one.

Yes well .... I think we may have to accept some inconsistencies. After
all, we have human gods getting destroyed at Deismaar, yet their essence
is distributed among all the beings of Cerilia somewhat indiscriminately
-- even the "god-less" elves. And even among those races with their own
gods or pantheon of gods. Ideally, Deismaar should have included all
those others as well perhaps, and an each to his own with "new" gods
inheriting all previous mantles etc. But of course we`d still have a
problem with those pesky elves.

On the other hand, there`s no reason why elves can`t have gods. Even if
there are no elf priests with priestly powers equivalent to other races
- there could still be priests (just not a priest class) - or the priest
class might not be available to PCs. It`s possible that elf gods are
rarely worshiped and/or never intervene or grant spells etc.

At the end of the day - we have a land that is "divinely charged" with
the essence of human gods. It comes as no surprise that to tap this
reservoir of energy, a spark of the same essence is required within the
being attempting the controlling.

And lastly - is all blood somewhat similar? Could the essence be linked
somehow to the oxygen-linking/carrying qualities of blood? Which could
explain how only "natural` creatures can carry a bloodline - and thus
allowing elves to do so as well.

---- random musings again -----

>
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[irdeggman]

Not to seem like too much of a complainer, but are elves "natural creatures" - Shadowspawn seems to imply otherwise.

This whole line is an example of how everything, even though not obviously, is eventually tied together. When a "small tweak" is made to one thing there is inevitably a bow wave of other "changes" that are caused. This whole concept is rather facinating, but overly complex for my personal gaming tastes. Still it is an interesting concept.

[ConjurerDragon]

Hi Peter!
There are already "limited" Mages/Wizards in Birthright: Magicians.
To introduce another form of limited wizard by requiring them to have
minimum bloodline levels to cast all spells adds to bookkeeping. while
adding nothing important I can see. The requirement to be elven and/or
blooded makes them rare enought - even more so when in 3E most elves are
sorcerors and not wizards.
bye
Michael Romes
(Bannier Andien)
***********************
Peter Lubke wrote:

>On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 08:14, irdeggman wrote:
>
>>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
>> You can view the entire thread at: http://www.birthright.net/read.php?TID=1133
>>
>> irdeggman wrote:
>> So a wizard has 2 relevent ability scores to worry about - Intelligence and the bloodline? On the surface this seems to be too restrictive for potential wizards, fighters don`t have to worry about having their basic class abilities limited because they have a minor bloodline so neither should a wizard. Just my opinion.
>>
>>The original rule was that the character just had to be blooded, no specification on strength.
>>
>
>While we can argue what the theoretical attitudes of the peoples of
>Cerilia are to wizards -- and we can also to-and-fro the attitudes of
>players of fantasy games, I think it`s a given that fantasy games are
>around at least in part so that players can play a wizard. Without
>wizards there would be historical role-playing etc etc. (in fact that`s
>exactly how it started)
>
>But in Cerilia -- source wizards are rare. Couple of dozen on the
>continent - isn`t that what it says? A couple of dozen! Ignoring the
>attitude of the Vos and the Rjurik, ignore even if you will the
>Anuireans - and ignore the elves - ignore even the Brecht. How rare in a
>magic-friendly society like the Khinasi are source wizards? -- I think
>you`d agree that even if all the source wizards in Cerilia (couple of
>dozen) were all Khinasi, then source wizards would still be rare in
>Khinasi.
>
>Aha! you pounce, but not all wizards control sources. This is true, so
>let`s think about it. Which wizards do control sources? What
>qualifications do you need? Why would a character want to? Why would
>he/she not want to? Seeing the very personal nature of wizardry in
>general wouldn`t it be reasonable to say that, in general, the more
>powerful wizards control the sources? So what of the other wizards - is
>their potential limited? - is their future limited? how many are there?
>Unlike faiths which would attract blooded priests like moths to a flame
>in the hope of eventually becoming high priest (or whatever) - there is
>no such thing for wizards.
>
>So if any wizard has the potential to become a powerful source caster -
>if they can become a powerful wizard - then why are then there so few?
>And now to speculation, supposition and less concrete notions. What if a
>wizard not only has to be blooded to cast true magic, the degree to
>which they are blooded determines how powerful they may become - e.g.
>tainted bloodlines can cast only 1st and 2nd level spells or some such.
>While the character may rise and rise in levels, they may be unable to
>access higher level spells. Thus only strongly blooded characters may
>stick with wizardry for any time - others may quickly reach the limit of
>their potential.
>
>>From a player perspective, none of this becomes a problem. After all, if
>a player wants to be a powerful wizard, any reasonable DM should allow
>him/her the resources to potentially achieve the dream.
>
>--- just idle thoughts --
>
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[geeman]

At 04:23 PM 12/12/2002 +1100, Peter Lubke wrote:

>Yes well .... I think we may have to accept some inconsistencies. After
>all, we have human gods getting destroyed at Deismaar, yet their essence
>is distributed among all the beings of Cerilia somewhat indiscriminately
>-- even the "god-less" elves. And even among those races with their own
>gods or pantheon of gods. Ideally, Deismaar should have included all
>those others as well perhaps, and an each to his own with "new" gods
>inheriting all previous mantles etc. But of course we`d still have a
>problem with those pesky elves.

One of the things I`ve always found annoying about the way D&D treats
different pantheons is that no god can be a member of two groups, creating
gods whose portfolios overlap quite a bit. That`s never made much sense to
me. Why shouldn`t the Norse god of Thunder, Thor, be the same deity as the
Chinese "Duke of Thunder" Lei Kung? I mean, LK even wields a
hammer.... The deity would take on a different appearance in different
areas, appearing to be a member of the race/culture in which he showed up
as an avatar, but that`s child`s play for a god. Among the "human" gods
different cultures have different names for the gods. Why not extend the
same thinking to the pantheons for demi-humans and humanoids? Haelyn`s
air/sun aspect might not be the aspect of his portfolio that the dwarves
focus on, of course, but his aspect as a law/justice/leader certainly would
be. Similarly, Belenik`s worship would be useful for orogs and other races
of Cerilia. Personally, I`d like to see a few more gods available in a BR
campaign, but in many cases they could just be variants of the existing gods.

Gary

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[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
> There are already "limited" Mages/Wizards in Birthright: Magicians.
> To introduce another form of limited wizard by requiring them to have
> minimum bloodline levels to cast all spells adds to bookkeeping. while
> adding nothing important I can see. The requirement to be elven and/or
> blooded makes them rare enought - even more so when in 3E most elves are
> sorcerors and not wizards.

Being blooded isn`t much of a requirement- how many soldiers do you
suppose were at Deismaar? Attila attacked Rome with an army of perhaps
700,000 men. The tribes in BR at the time of Deismaar strike me as
smaller than the germanic Huns. Maybe each army only had 50,000 men.
There were six tribes, the dwarves, the goblins, the elves, plus
miscellaneous gnolls, ogres, and giants. Just counting humans, there
could have been 300,000 at the battle. Does that sound too high?

Say there were only 100,000. Most would probably marry unblooded women
who weren`t at the battle, but within a generation there might have been
200,000 blooded humans in Cerilia. Now, the minor bloodlines will start
to die out, but some will begin to marry each other, creating the lines
that exist in modern Cerilia. There are probably many thousands of
blooded people in Anuire alone. Many of them are noble, the divine
essense seems to have inclined them towards seeking power over other men,
so many will be wealthy enough to study wizardly magic. And the
requirement for the mage class in 2e was a 9 int; in 3e, it`s 10, but
those are the average values, so at least half of all the blooded, wealthy
people will have the capability to be wizards.

Perhaps most Anuirean lords aspire toward warriorship and not wizardry,
but the Khinasi esteem wizards highly and would probably have more. It`s
not real hard to break that `6 or 7 score` wizards in Cerilia line.

So yes, it seems reasonable to me to introduce other limits on
spellcasting, if we want to keep Cerilian wizardry in line with the
published suggestions that BR is low magic.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[ConjurerDragon]

Hi Daniel!

daniel mcsorley wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
>
>>There are already "limited" Mages/Wizards in Birthright: Magicians.
>>To introduce another form of limited wizard by requiring them to have
>>minimum bloodline levels to cast all spells adds to bookkeeping. while
>>adding nothing important I can see. The requirement to be elven and/or
>>blooded makes them rare enought - even more so when in 3E most elves are
>>sorcerors and not wizards.
>>
>
>Being blooded isn`t much of a requirement- how many soldiers do you
>suppose were at Deismaar? Attila attacked Rome with an army of perhaps
>700,000 men. The tribes in BR at the time of Deismaar strike me as
>smaller than the germanic Huns.
>
Germanic Huns? The Huns were the ancestors of Hungary not Germany - "the
Huns" is only used in connection with Germany because of Emperor William
II of the "Deutsches Reich" who once used it in a speech in connection
with germans.

> Maybe each army only had 50,000 men.
>There were six tribes, the dwarves, the goblins, the elves, plus
>miscellaneous gnolls, ogres, and giants. Just counting humans, there
>could have been 300,000 at the battle. Does that sound too high?
>
Yes.
First at the battle of Deismaar there were not a single wizard. The
elves were sorcerors and no human had a bloodline prior to Deismaar, so
only Magicians - or perhaps those few who dealed with Azrai and became
the Lost.

After Deismaar, when the gods blood was set free I see:
Dwarves are in Birthright inherently non-magical uncapable of wielding
arcane magic.
The Humanoids, as goblins, gnolls, ogres and giants are generally
described as barbaric, lacking intelligent leaders because strength and
brutality count more among them - only very few wizards among them.
The Vos have turned away from Vorynns magic ways - most of them are
fighters, wizards enjoy somthing similar to the medieval inquisition in
this society.
The Rjurik fear wizards to the point they would exile or harm them - so
there also few wizards.

>Say there were only 100,000. Most would probably marry unblooded women
>who weren`t at the battle, but within a generation there might have been
>200,000 blooded humans in Cerilia. Now, the minor bloodlines will start
>to die out, but some will begin to marry each other, creating the lines
>that exist in modern Cerilia. There are probably many thousands of
>blooded people in Anuire alone. Many of them are noble, the divine
>essense seems to have inclined them towards seeking power over other men,
>so many will be wealthy enough to study wizardly magic. And the
>requirement for the mage class in 2e was a 9 int; in 3e, it`s 10, but
>those are the average values, so at least half of all the blooded, wealthy
>people will have the capability to be wizards.
>
Yes. Take the PS of Medoere for example. It states that only 5% of the
population are nobles (both religious and secular) and only a handful of
familys have blooded individuals, and no more than 20 (TWENTY!) people
in the whole domain are blooded.

Meaning only 20 people in Medoere could hope to become a wizard.
Some other books state the same, that blooded characters are very, very
rare. Much more rare than the assumption of hundred of thousands of
fighters at Deismaar and all of them procreating like rabbits and
spreading their bloodlines might seem to assume.

Your example of 700000 or only 300000 seems to assume that everyone who
was at the battle became blooded - I do not remember to have read this
somewhere.

>Perhaps most Anuirean lords aspire toward warriorship and not wizardry,
>but the Khinasi esteem wizards highly and would probably have more. It`s
>not real hard to break that `6 or 7 score` wizards in Cerilia line.
>So yes, it seems reasonable to me to introduce other limits on
>spellcasting, if we want to keep Cerilian wizardry in line with the
>published suggestions that BR is low magic.
>
Not exactly low magic, but very rare High-Magic.
bye
Michael Romes

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[ryancaveney]

On Sat, 7 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> There are two arguments to the "What have you done for me lately?"
> question. Both have valid points of view.
> (i) If you didn`t spend RP in a previous turn - then you haven`t done
> much lately - and hence are seen as less influential. (OTOH: How
> lately is lately? -- it`s just a line in the sand)
> (ii) If you didn`t spend RP in a previous turn then you are still
> "owed" some favors -- even if much later in the future (OTOH: Can you
> "rely" on this? -- ?!sigh!?)

Yeah, it twists both ways. Half-life is an attempt to deal with "can you
rely on it", and quantifies exactly how much a regent`s maximum effort can
vary from his usual influence: precisely double.

> So, mostly, there`s no real bidding wars in the first half. In the
> last action round - all hell can break loose.

That makes sense. Do your players like it better or worse than the
rulebook way (if they have ever tried the rulebook way)?

> Yes, well - if you don`t have a bloodline higher than your domain power
> - any sniping at your domain will reduce your RP per turn. So if you
> can`t defend it with what you`ve got -- then you end up getting weaker.

Right. Bloodline represents a sort of inherent level of appropriate
domain power, towards which high-blooded people with small domains tend to
rise and low-blooded people with large domains somewhat more slowly to
fall. This seems thematically perfect.

> Initiative: rather than use character level for initiative
> bonus/penalty, I use (BP-DP)/5 which means that characters with a
> domain larger than their bloodline will be a little less able to gain
> initiative.

Aha! Very nice. I like this even apart from your RP collection method.
People who are overqualified for their jobs are faster on their feet than
people who are overwhelmed by them. Good, good.


Ryan Caveney

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[Birthright-L]

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Michael Romes wrote:
> Germanic Huns?

Snip, yeah, whatever, I was just generally blanketing them in with the
`germanic tribes` that invaded Rome for several hundred years, my bad.

> > Maybe each army only had 50,000 men.
> >There were six tribes, the dwarves, the goblins, the elves, plus
> >miscellaneous gnolls, ogres, and giants. Just counting humans, there
> >could have been 300,000 at the battle. Does that sound too high?
>
> Yes.
> First at the battle of Deismaar there were not a single wizard. The
> elves were sorcerors and no human had a bloodline prior to Deismaar, so
> only Magicians - or perhaps those few who dealed with Azrai and became
> the Lost.

I didn`t say there were human wizards there, I said 300,000 men. Whether
elves are sorcerors or wizards (in 3e) is a matter of taste. I say there
are no sorcerors in BR, just wizards, but it`s not germane anyway, because
we`re talking about humans, /after/ Deismaar.

> Yes. Take the PS of Medoere for example. It states that only 5% of the
> population are nobles (both religious and secular) and only a handful of
> familys have blooded individuals, and no more than 20 (TWENTY!) people
> in the whole domain are blooded.

Sounds low- it doesn`t fit with the demographics. Even if the blooded
only married each other (after a generation or two, the gender balance
wouldn`t be right at the beginning), the population would still tend to
grow. Even if there were only a thousand blooded Anuireans after
Deismaar, there would be many more than that in modern Cerilia. Heck,
they`d grow faster than the general population, because they end up
wealthy, often have magical powers, and gain more access to clerical
healing magic.

They wouldn`t all be high bloodline, because it would tend to dilute over
time, but there would be a lot of them.

> Your example of 700000 or only 300000 seems to assume that everyone who
> was at the battle became blooded - I do not remember to have read this
> somewhere.

Right- all bloodlines were created in people near the explosion, but not
all people near the explosion got bloodlines. It seems pretty
indiscriminate, though, since elves and dwarves both got bloodlines from
human gods.

They don`t have to have bred like rabbits. Go with that 1000 number up
above. Say they average 1% growth per generation (rather low, medieval
population growth was around .35% per year), taking into account plagues,
poor harvests, Gorgon cullings, and whatnot. If a generation is 30 years,
there have been ~50 since Deismaar. There`d be 1,645 scions in Anuire.
A similar number in other regions. Half have the mental capacity to
become wizards.

A bloodline requirement alone probably isn`t sufficient to limit wizards
to 6 or 7 score.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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[ryancaveney]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Gary wrote:

> Another way to look at this distinction, though, is that a "true
> wizard" isn`t really a "true wizard" until he hits 5th level, at which
> point his bloodline (or elven heritage) gives him access to the 3rd
> level magics that "commoners" and non-elves cannot cast.

I find much to agree with in this interpretation. Also note that in 3e,
to cast "true magic" defined thusly one also needs an Int of at least 13.

> There may be hundreds, even thousands of 1st-4th level blooded wizards
> running around on Cerilia, but since there is very little in the way
> of magical ability to distinguish such wizards from magicians there`s
> no point in counting them amongst the "true mages."

Agreed, under standard rules. I don`t really like that, so IMC I tweak
them. Since magicians only get higher-level spells in divination and
illusion, I consider them akin to specialists in those schools and forbid
them any access to spells from the 2e opposition schools (necromancy,
evocation, and one which escapes me at the moment). Also, while magicians
still need material components IMC, blooded wizards do not.

> Personally, I kind of like this distinction, and wonder if it might
> even be sensible, therefore, to make True Mage a sort of prestige
> class available only to scions and those with elven blood in a BR D20

Possible, but at minimum it needs as many levels as a base class, not just
five or ten. I also view training as a magician to not generalize well or
directly to true wizardry -- if a magician somehow gained a bloodline late
in life, I think he`d be very confused at how differently the mebhaighl
responded, and would have to learn almost from scratch how to deal with
it. In 2e I`d have made him dual class; I`m not sure how to handle it yet
in 3e. I feel supported by the fact that in the BR rulebook, the ability
score requirements to qualify as a magician are higher than for a wizard,
which indicates that controlling the same magic (i.e., anything a magician
is allowed to cast) is just easier if you have the blood for it -- a true
"natural talent".


Ryan Caveney

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "daniel mcsorley" <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 12:38 PM

> Perhaps most Anuirean lords aspire toward warriorship and not wizardry,
> but the Khinasi esteem wizards highly and would probably have more. It`s
> not real hard to break that `6 or 7 score` wizards in Cerilia line.

Although I rather suspect that these Khinasi nobles are dilettante wizards.
Imagine a character who is 2/3`s Aristocrat and 1/3 Wizard. Many of those
additional aristocrat skill ranks might be spent on Spellcraft, Knowledge
(Arcana), Concentration, Alchemy, and so forth. Take Omar ibn Tuarim
el-Zisef, who is described as a barely competant wizard. I think a 5th
level Arist/2nd Wiz makes more sense. A character like the Emira of
Khourane could be a 3rd level Arist/ 10th level Wiz.

This would conveniently conform to Gary`s counting only characters who wield
true magic, without forcing characters into the either/or of low adventuring
levels or high adventuring levels. It also reflects the Khinasi fascination
with magic without requiring that the only possible outlet of that
fascination is wizard class progression.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> On Thu, 2002-12-12 at 08:14, irdeggman wrote:
>
> While the character may rise and rise in levels, they may be unable to
> access higher level spells. Thus only strongly blooded characters may
> stick with wizardry for any time - others may quickly reach the limit of
> their potential.
>
> From a player perspective, none of this becomes a problem. After all,
> if a player wants to be a powerful wizard, any reasonable DM should
> allow him/her the resources to potentially achieve the dream.

And this is precisely the intent of my suggestion -- the people who cause
me the big headaches in world design are all NPCs, not players. I want
there to be extra limits on spellcasters, because mid-level wizards are
just much more able to affect whole countries than even very high-level
fighters, so I am much more concerned with limiting their number. PCs are
supposed to change the world by their actions, but too many people with
high-level spells running around somewhere out there off-camera seriously
destabilize the game world.

For players, obtaining a moderate bloodline at character creation is easy,
and I like the idea of wizards having to worry about hunting down
awnsheghlien to increase their powers, or wanting to become a source
holder even for a short while just to have another way to increase their
bloodline. I also believe in extra goodies for regent wizards -- for
example, extra levels of spell effect and higher save DCs if casting
normal spells in a province where they have a source or a ley line -- so I
am open to the idea of similar extra goodies based on bloodline.

I think the bloodline -- regency -- mebhaighl -- magic power connection is
the heart of Birthright, and I like making rules tweaks to make the
relationship more obvious and potent in game effect, even at the
individual adventurer scale.


Ryan Caveney

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:19 PM

> Germanic Huns? The Huns were the ancestors of Hungary not Germany

The Hungarians are Magyars, a different pastoral invader of the 10th
century.

On the other hand the Huns during the 4th century began to take on many
Gothic tribes who found it better to ally with the great power moving
through their area than it was to try to oppose them. The Huns themselves
were probably a Turkic people whose origins are close to the Turkic homeland
to the north-west of China. The Hunnic confederacy under Attila was no
longer identifiably an enthic object, but was only a coallition of tribes
under the leadership of Attila. Certainly it included man Germans,
including the conquered Ostrogoths and some Visigoths. The Romans who
oppsed Attila were likewise largely German, although we call them Roman.

> Yes. Take the PS of Medoere for example. It states that only 5% of the
> population are nobles (both religious and secular) and only a handful of
> familys have blooded individuals, and no more than 20 (TWENTY!) people
> in the whole domain are blooded.

Surely this means twenty households. 20 people would mean something closer
to three or four families.

> Meaning only 20 people in Medoere could hope to become a wizard.
> Some other books state the same, that blooded characters are very, very
> rare.

I figure that there is a noble family for every level of a province. There
are 9 provincial levels in Medoere, so I would create 9 blooded families who
might be connected to guilds, temples, sources, or land. These families
might have three generations and number four or more children in each
generation. Of course some of these blooded individuals could be
unconnected to holdings, and just adventuring types. The Enlien line alone
identifies seven living family members who can all be supposed to be blooded
(except maybe Saliene). If Suris, her brother Mourtien, or either of her
two cousins marries some scion and has children, the numbers of blooded
characters in Medoere grows further. If the Enlien family was totally
representative, I`d say there are 50 blooded characters in Enlien.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Peter Lubke wrote:

> After all, we have human gods getting destroyed at Deismaar, yet their
> essence is distributed among all the beings of Cerilia somewhat
> indiscriminately -- even the "god-less" elves. And even among those
> races with their own gods or pantheon of gods.

Yeah, this is weird. It strikes me as very wrong. IMO, each race ought
to have its own name for the derivations -- for example, the goblins and
dwarves should have their own complete pantheons and say theirs come from
their race`s gods, who as Gary suggests may actually be the same
transcendental beings, just seen in different ways in different cultures.
I think the goblins, gnolls and orogs ought to view all non-Azrai
derivations as coming not from the power of his enemies, but rather from
his divine servants who are falsely left out of the stories the foolish
humans tell each other. Dwarves might call them by the names of rocks and
minerals (Iron, Gold, Granite, Coal, etc.; I have not worked out a
conversion table for this) and elves by the elements (some are easy,
like Masela = Water and Reynir = Earth).

> Ideally, Deismaar should have included all those others as well
> perhaps, and an each to his own with "new" gods inheriting all
> previous mantles etc. But of course we`d still have a problem with
> those pesky elves.

Much of the alternate backstory and metaphysics I have created for my
interpretation of Cerilia has come from trying to explain this fact.
What we know about BR history from the rulebook I basically lump in with
the stuff in the Atlas and just say it comes from the overwhelmingly
humanocentric viewpoint of Chancellor Dosiere, who is not really reporting
history when he talks about Deismaar, but instead just giving one highly
mythologized version out of many. Since the Sidhelien are the only race
which has many (or any) members who are old enough to remember Deismaar,
it is my personal opinion that what they have to say about it ought to be
the most correct.

IMC, bloodlines existed before Deismaar, at least among the elves and
dragons. The elves call them by their elemental associations: Air, Water,
Fire, Earth, Light (aka Energy or Magic, for "Vorynn" and the Positive
Material Plane), Darkness (aka Entropy, for "Azrai" and the Negative
Material Plane), and Motion (for "Brenna" and the Ethereal and Astral
Planes). The very oldest elves with bloodlines actually are elementals,
some of whom have been wearing humanoid bodies so long they have basically
forgotten they haven`t always had them and don`t strictly need them.

I agree with irdeggman that the Sidhelien, with their ability to move
easily over any terrain without leaving any trace (which, among other
things, implies that while running through brambles in the rain they never
tear their clothes or get mud on their shoes), innate magic powers,
agelessness etc. really seem more like spirits than living beings, and the
older and more powerful among them I treat exactly that way.

> On the other hand, there`s no reason why elves can`t have gods. Even
> if there are no elf priests with priestly powers equivalent to other
> races - there could still be priests (just not a priest class) - or
> the priest class might not be available to PCs. It`s possible that elf
> gods are rarely worshiped and/or never intervene or grant spells etc.

IMC it is the reverse -- many elves do have priestly powers (such as
healing and turning/destroying undead) because they are physical
manifestations of the power of nature itself. (As I`ve said before, their
basic rulebook description leads me to believe they derive their
sustenance directly from mebhaighl.) They need no gods, and in fact know
for a fact that none of things the other races worship actually exist as
such: IMC, the seven famous beings who fought and died at Deismaar were
extremely powerful dragons, who had presented themselves to humans,
goblins, etc. as gods in order to gain followers to help them fight the
last major draconic civil war, in which nearly all of them died. Then the
priests who had learned from those dragons how to use the magic of the
land needed some way to hang on to the social and political power they
derived from administering the heirarchy the dragons had created to rule
over their new minions, (or had been successfully brainwashed into
thinking their patrons really were divine, and needed some way to explain
to themselves why they still had their powers, as they had bought the lie
that "Azrai" et al. provided the power, instead of just the skill to use
power that was just lying around) so they invented the story that some of
the famous humans who had led the human armies of the various dragon
factions had not died horribly, but instead ascended to godhood. Purely
fictitious, but very useful for maintaining their priests` positions at
the top of the social pecking order and the peace of mind of the true
believers. They went on teaching their rituals of magic use just the way
they had been taught by the dragons -- there are now and never were any
gods to grant spells; instead there are just a variety of different
rituals for controlling mebhaighl. Magicians and priests can do different
subsets of the whole thing with somewhat different methods, but only
elves, the surviving dragons and blooded wizards can actually do it all,
or really do any of it "right".

> At the end of the day - we have a land that is "divinely charged" with
> the essence of human gods. It comes as no surprise that to tap this
> reservoir of energy, a spark of the same essence is required within
> the being attempting the controlling.

IMO, the power was always in the land, and in different amounts in people.
Stories of gods IMC are just fanciful attempts to explain a kind of
physical truth that most non-elves still just don`t understand.

> And lastly - is all blood somewhat similar? Could the essence be
> linked somehow to the oxygen-linking/carrying qualities of blood?

"Midichlorians" does sound a lot like "mitochondria", doesn`t it? =)


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> Although I rather suspect that these Khinasi nobles are dilettante
> wizards. Imagine a character who is 2/3`s Aristocrat and 1/3 Wizard.
> This would conveniently conform to Gary`s counting only characters who
> wield true magic, without forcing characters into the either/or of low
> adventuring levels or high adventuring levels. It also reflects the
> Khinasi fascination with magic without requiring that the only
> possible outlet of that fascination is wizard class progression.

Absolutely! Just a "Me too."


Ryan Caveney

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 2:28 PM

> Also, while magicians still need material components
> IMC, blooded wizards do not.

Does their bloodline automatically act as a substitute for spell componants?
Do they need to take a feat to activate this power? Do you require the
replacement of a focus (perhaps a dynastic symbol) or a staff (as Gandalf)
to activate this blood power? Are some spells with particularly expensive
componants exempt?

> I also view training as a magician to not generalize well or directly
> to true wizardry -- if a magician somehow gained a bloodline late in
> life [...] would have to learn almost from scratch how to deal with it.

What about using the 3e mechanic of half caster levels?

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 2:54 PM

> I like the idea of wizards having to worry about hunting down
> awnsheghlien to increase their powers, or wanting to become a source
> holder even for a short while just to have another way to increase their
> bloodline.

I have given blooded PC`s bloodline bonuses for acting as a champion for a
realm (without any formal connections to the rulers). If great
(multi-adventure) opponants who threaten a specific realm are defeated, a
boost of several blood points seems appropriate. The land has rewarded the
hero. If a blooded opponant is defeated and blood theft occurs, there is no
additional gift of the land.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> If great (multi-adventure) opponants who threaten a specific realm are
> defeated, a boost of several blood points seems appropriate. The land
> has rewarded the hero.

I agree. For regents, since particularly bad resolutions of random events
can lose them RP and even blood points, so too should particularly good
ones gain them one or both.


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> From: "Ryan B. Caveney" <ryanb@CYBERCOM.NET>
> > Also, while magicians still need material components
> > IMC, blooded wizards do not.
>
> Does their bloodline automatically act as a substitute for spell
> componants?

Yes.

> Do they need to take a feat to activate this power?

No. It`s an extra class feature of gaining level one in Wizard. And
magicians (unblooded spellcasters of any kind, actually, including priests
and bards without bloodlines) cannot take this feat, nor Still or Silent
Spell. Doing magic without a bloodline is irreducibly difficult.

> Do you require the replacement of a focus (perhaps a dynastic symbol)
> or a staff (as Gandalf) to activate this blood power?

I hadn`t thought about it, but I am inclined to say no. I imagine some
wizards are first taught that way, but I don`t think the prop is
essential. The magic is in their blood, so they shouldn`t need anything
outside their own bodies to do magic. I don`t think Gandalf strictly
*needed* his staff either, any more than Thor needed Mjollnir to kill
giants -- the tool just made him even better at it. In game terms, I`d
make Gandalf`s staff do something like provide the benefits of Maximize or
Extend Spell without requiring him to expend extra levels from his daily
list. Doing low magic like a magician always requires props, but the true
wizard can in time learn to do true magic by will alone.

> Are some spells with particularly expensive componants exempt?

Yes. However, such spells can be cast without the expense (or with
reduced expense), either by forgoing some number of caster levels` worth
of effect or by sacrificing hp (again, the magic is, almost literally, in
their blood). Regent wizards may use RP in place of expensive components,
if for some reason they find gold that hard to come by.

> > I also view training as a magician to not generalize well or directly
> > to true wizardry -- if a magician somehow gained a bloodline late in
> > life [...] would have to learn almost from scratch how to deal with it.
>
> What about using the 3e mechanic of half caster levels?

Yes, that`s about right. A slow process of learning to use higher-level
wizard spells ought to be incorporated, also -- a Magician 14 shouldn`t be
able to learn Limited Wish the first day he has a bloodline. He needs to
start small, and learn a new way of interacting with mebhaighl, lest it
get out of control. I am tempted to say he should in fact become a Wizard
7 / Expert 7, but that seems too punitive. This is why I liked 2e
dual-and-multi-classing`s use of separate XP tracks: in this case, gaining
those first few levels in the new class ought to be really easy.

What I might like better is perhaps to say that on day one the Magician
14 ought to become a Magician 13 / Wizard 1, and as he works his way
through some number of XP he gradually changes to M12/W2, then M11/W3 and
so on until he becomes entirely a wizard. Maybe this happens on the day
he becomes a 15th-level character, or maybe it takes much shorter or
longer, but I would say that some process of relearning ought to take
place either in place of or alongside the usual XP progression.


Ryan Caveney

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[ryancaveney]

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, daniel mcsorley wrote:

> I didn`t say there were human wizards there, I said 300,000 men.

I think that`s probably pretty reasonable.

> Whether elves are sorcerors or wizards (in 3e) is a matter of taste.

Agreed.

> I say there are no sorcerors in BR, just wizards,

Agreed.

> but it`s not germane anyway, because we`re talking about humans,
> /after/ Deismaar.

Agreed.

> > no more than 20 (TWENTY!) people in the whole domain are blooded.
> Sounds low- it doesn`t fit with the demographics.

Agreed.

> Even if the blooded only married each other the population would still
> tend to grow.

Agreed.

> Heck, they`d grow faster than the general population, because they end
> up wealthy, often have magical powers, and gain more access to
> clerical healing magic.

Agreed. OTOH, they`d also be more inclined to kill each other (or be
hunted down by awnsheghlien) for bloodtheft. Still, I agree that overall
their growth rate (birth rate minus death rate) would be higher.

> They wouldn`t all be high bloodline, because it would tend to dilute over
> time, but there would be a lot of them.

If they were only marrying each other and occasionally spent RP to
increase bloodlines, the bloodlines would have tended to grow on average
(even if the very highest lines did slide towards the middle). Frequent
bloodtheft could drive it either way: if the winners of bloodtheft duels
tended to have higher bloodlines than the losers, average blood score
would go up; if winners started lower than losers, the average would go
down (slightly less quickly, since some blood points would be gained).

The existence of many tainted bloodlines and the well-known RW phenomena
of royal bastards and families rising up from the common folk over
generations to eventually become nobles imply to me that there has been a
great deal of outbreeding, which continues to this day, so I am inclined
to consider any blooded proportion much under the rulebook`s 1% to be too
low. PS Muden`s figure of 0.1% is IMO the absolute lower limit.

> Say they average 1% growth per generation (rather low, medieval
> population growth was around .35% per year),

These figures don`t mesh well if you use the RW rate for the commoners!
0.35% per year is a bit over 11% per 30-year generation. In the same 1500
years that the blooded grew 64%, the unblooded would have grown by
189,000%! Clearly there must be something else going on, or relatively
there wouldn`t be enough scions to fill all the regent jobs. Also, if
true, it might imply 300,000 at Deismaar is much too large a figure. But
we ought to remember that at its height ancient Rome was a city of at
least that many inhabitants, and many think it held a million or more, a
figure not seen again until the industrial revolution, some 1500 years
later. Perhaps a significant fraction of the population of Cerilia
perished at Deismaar or in its aftermath effects on society -- and global
climate! -- in order to enable continued moderately rapid growth since then.


Ryan Caveney

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